Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I have an album that describes the same stamp, (Scott MR2) as Carmine and Rose Carmine.
How exactly do I differentiate these colours? I attached one of the fellows in question.
(And yes I used the Canadian "u" in the word colour...)
An ill informed philatelist thanks you in advance.
Regards,
Garner
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I think your best bet will be comparing it with a stamp you have in your possession that is only found in one of the colors. If you have any 2c coil admirals (that aren't green, of course), or the war tax coil MR6, I believe they would be carmine, only. You'll probably still see some variation, but they won't have the "rosiness."
Others that you might have on hand would be the KGV and Mary 3c from the Jubilee issue, or the KGVI and QE from the 1937 issue, both of which would be carmine. The 10c RCMP officer on horseback is carmine rose, which should be a bit closer to the rose carmine. At least it should give an idea of the "rosy" character that the rose imparts.
Scans are pretty unreliable for this kind of i.d. (but I'll guess carmine, anyway).
Rereading this, it is clear as mud. Or at least rose mud.
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Apart from having a large reference collection available, there probably is no way to determine whether a given stamp is a particular colour when known colour varieties exist. And even a reference collection is not necessarily a reliable guide: the conditions of storage (heat, light, humidity, atmospheric contaminants) can result in colour changes, especially for stamps that have been around for as long as the Admiral series (coming up on a century). And then there is the certainty that inks, papers, and printing variables simply could not be replicated year after year with long-running series. And even the perception of colour is involved in this question. People with good colour vision can easily tell that one stamp is a different shade than another, but I don't think many people can look at a single stamp and identify with certainty which colour it represents.
At one of our stamp club auctions a few years ago an interesting item was sold for a few dollars: some collector had pasted at least 150 "carmine" Admirals to a large board in a tight spiral. From the outside of the spiral to the centre, the tone gradually changed from light to dark (or maybe dark to light, I'm not sure), and no two stamps were the same shade. So much for precision in catalogue listings, not to mention stamp descriptions in auctions!
In the end, colour ID is a very subjective business. I once tried collecting Admirals and gave up, largely because of the difficulty of correctly identifying them.
Bob
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Thank you both very much for your wisdom. I am referencing others in my collection as we speak. The coil of carmine admirals is very interesting as well.
I believe "Carmine Admiral" would make a good code name as well...
Thanks again.
Garner
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02:28:15pm
"Shades " are subjective.
Some can be readily determined as they are at a great enough varience that most people can agree on which is which.
But others are so close that I think it is up to the observer to decide what he or she is looking at.
Several times we discussed "Shades" in the Machin Forum.
Scroll down to Mon Mar 21 2011 6 16 pm
The painstakingly detailed Deegam Complete Machin Handbook which covers the thousands of varieties of that long lasting series in just about every excruciating detail takes a pass when it comes to "shades" for the most part, stating that;
" .....Shades make an attractive sideline to any specialized collection. Unfortunately there is no universally accepted and unambiguous system for naming shades with certainty that collectors can identify them from the description alone. Even if the viewing conditions are the same, colour perceptions are not uniform and one person's 'bluish grey' will be another's 'grey blue' or even 'steel blue'. ...........................
Nevertheless, some strikingly different shades have occurred and it is very worthwhile to include a representative selectiom of them in even a moderately specialised collection ....."
and further;
" ..... In most cases, therefore, this Handbook contents itself to draw attention to the existance of collectable shades by the use of the word 'shades' in the Notes column of the catalogue entries, without attempting to describe them (save in a few agreed instances).
Where, however, a marked shade has been the subject of official comment or can be attributed to a deliberate change of plates used, or from an acknowledged error in production, it is separately listed with an explanatory footnote......"
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I am working with my Canadian admirals, (lovely little guys :P)
I have an album that describes the same stamp, (Scott MR2) as Carmine and Rose Carmine.
How exactly do I differentiate these colours? I attached one of the fellows in question.
(And yes I used the Canadian "u" in the word colour...)
An ill informed philatelist thanks you in advance.
Regards,
Garner
Login to Like
this post
re: Carmine Admirals: colour question
I think your best bet will be comparing it with a stamp you have in your possession that is only found in one of the colors. If you have any 2c coil admirals (that aren't green, of course), or the war tax coil MR6, I believe they would be carmine, only. You'll probably still see some variation, but they won't have the "rosiness."
Others that you might have on hand would be the KGV and Mary 3c from the Jubilee issue, or the KGVI and QE from the 1937 issue, both of which would be carmine. The 10c RCMP officer on horseback is carmine rose, which should be a bit closer to the rose carmine. At least it should give an idea of the "rosy" character that the rose imparts.
Scans are pretty unreliable for this kind of i.d. (but I'll guess carmine, anyway).
Rereading this, it is clear as mud. Or at least rose mud.
Login to Like
this post
re: Carmine Admirals: colour question
Apart from having a large reference collection available, there probably is no way to determine whether a given stamp is a particular colour when known colour varieties exist. And even a reference collection is not necessarily a reliable guide: the conditions of storage (heat, light, humidity, atmospheric contaminants) can result in colour changes, especially for stamps that have been around for as long as the Admiral series (coming up on a century). And then there is the certainty that inks, papers, and printing variables simply could not be replicated year after year with long-running series. And even the perception of colour is involved in this question. People with good colour vision can easily tell that one stamp is a different shade than another, but I don't think many people can look at a single stamp and identify with certainty which colour it represents.
At one of our stamp club auctions a few years ago an interesting item was sold for a few dollars: some collector had pasted at least 150 "carmine" Admirals to a large board in a tight spiral. From the outside of the spiral to the centre, the tone gradually changed from light to dark (or maybe dark to light, I'm not sure), and no two stamps were the same shade. So much for precision in catalogue listings, not to mention stamp descriptions in auctions!
In the end, colour ID is a very subjective business. I once tried collecting Admirals and gave up, largely because of the difficulty of correctly identifying them.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: Carmine Admirals: colour question
Thank you both very much for your wisdom. I am referencing others in my collection as we speak. The coil of carmine admirals is very interesting as well.
I believe "Carmine Admiral" would make a good code name as well...
Thanks again.
Garner
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Dec 2011
02:28:15pm
re: Carmine Admirals: colour question
"Shades " are subjective.
Some can be readily determined as they are at a great enough varience that most people can agree on which is which.
But others are so close that I think it is up to the observer to decide what he or she is looking at.
Several times we discussed "Shades" in the Machin Forum.
Scroll down to Mon Mar 21 2011 6 16 pm
The painstakingly detailed Deegam Complete Machin Handbook which covers the thousands of varieties of that long lasting series in just about every excruciating detail takes a pass when it comes to "shades" for the most part, stating that;
" .....Shades make an attractive sideline to any specialized collection. Unfortunately there is no universally accepted and unambiguous system for naming shades with certainty that collectors can identify them from the description alone. Even if the viewing conditions are the same, colour perceptions are not uniform and one person's 'bluish grey' will be another's 'grey blue' or even 'steel blue'. ...........................
Nevertheless, some strikingly different shades have occurred and it is very worthwhile to include a representative selectiom of them in even a moderately specialised collection ....."
and further;
" ..... In most cases, therefore, this Handbook contents itself to draw attention to the existance of collectable shades by the use of the word 'shades' in the Notes column of the catalogue entries, without attempting to describe them (save in a few agreed instances).
Where, however, a marked shade has been the subject of official comment or can be attributed to a deliberate change of plates used, or from an acknowledged error in production, it is separately listed with an explanatory footnote......"
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