Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Here is the front of the card:
Well, obviously there is a reason why I am showing this card here. In fact, I have been looking for an item like it for a while, screening hundreds if not thousands of covers from the last couple of years. I hope to find a better one eventually, but this is what I can show for now.
Now, I promise not to let you in limbo for long, but what do YOU think why this card is a case for the cover corner?
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Well,lets see, an american picture postcard,printed in Korea,presumedly mailed from SF,California,with a Houston, TX cancel.
now that's a mixer.
It could be the sender did not mail it until he got back home (Houston?).
Does Smith Novelty Co. still exist?
I dont know what SF looks like,,is that S F or is it L A.
also a bit odd that the card recieved a cancel on both front and back.
wasnt postcard rate 24c in 2006 ?
TOM
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@ Tom
Hello! Thank you for taking a first stab.
Well, let's see:
"an american picture postcard,printed in Korea,presumedly mailed from SF,California,with a Houston, TX cancel. Now that's a mixer." ==> Yes
"It could be the sender did not mail it until he got back home (Houston?)." ==> yes. maybe.
"Does Smith Novelty Co. still exist?" ==> No idea.
"I dont know what SF looks like,,is that S F or is it L A." ==> or Houston?
"also a bit odd that the card recieved a cancel on both front and back." ==> Yes. This is going in the right direction, but need to be a little more specific ...
"wasnt postcard rate 24c in 2006 ?" ==> Where are the rate experts when you need them?
To be continued?
(Message edited by rhinelander on January 24, 2010)
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Where was the front of the card cancelled? I can't read it. LOL, don't make us wait too long! 
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Hello Doe,
Thank you for chiming in.
"Where was the front of the card cancelled? I can't read it." ==> Here are better(?) images of the cancels:
(Message edited by rhinelander on January 24, 2010)
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Well,I'm stumped.Backstamped is usually a recieved cancel .In your case,a Cleveland Ohio back stamp.If they even do those anymore in 2006
I checked a few of my coil cards and found one.
franked with 5c washington coil.
both front and back are canceled as yours,,
West Palm Beach FL 81
PM---21/FEB --- 1969--Circle cancel with 7 wavy lines. card printed by D&N Post Card CO.,West PalmBeach,FL.--Pictiure features -Wells Road,Palm Beach, Florida.
Adessed to Pomano Beach,Fl.
Sure wish I could have posted a pic.
TOM
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"Backstamped is usually a recieved cancel. In your case,a Cleveland Ohio back stamp." ==> Yes, backstamps tend to be received cancel. The cancel is hard to read; smudged because of the glossy finish of the card which does not absorb the ink well. Nevertheless, I do not think it reads Cleveland ...
Since Tom has gotten us so close: This backstamp -- poorly legible as it is -- is really where all "the action" is for me in this postcard. I was very excited to find it. So, what is this cancel? What is its significance? How did it get there?
(Message edited by rhinelander on January 24, 2010)
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Addendum:
"I checked a few of my coil cards and found one.
franked with 5c washington coil. both front and back are canceled as yours," ==> I'd be interested to see a picture if you can get your hands on a scanner. Received cancel on regular first class letters in 1969 are certainly unusal. To be specific, the practice of backstamping all ordinary mail was discontinued following the Postmaster General's Order No. 7107 of May 8, 1913. The practice of applying received markings to incoming postcards had already been officially halted in 1907.
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usually, if one sees a spray on on both sides the reverse usually shows offset, not full cancellation. there is nothing that should have triggered the face side spray on.
the bottom of the spray ons are different, with one showing 6L and the other 6T. not sure what this means....
always love your puzzles Arno
David, the Cleveland expat
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I have a good friend who collects spray cancels on 3x5 pieces. (I also send him all my modern meter mail for one of his friends.) But, there are a few exceptions where I keep the entire; PNCs, MPPs, Postcards etc... So I can't wait to find out what is uncommon about the cancel, and keep an eye out for it. Well I'm assuming it's the cancel... lol, it is Arno's cover after all.
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Does anyone else have the enlargement button on thier comp screen?Bottom right corner-says +100%.
Point and click rasises it to 125 and 150 %.
Well I do,and at 150% the cancel on picture does show as Houston.
The T and L could mean the card was suspect of being oversized,rejected,transfered to another department,postage and size approved,recanceled at the second station and sent along.
Not sure of the letter (T - L) designation or what,but believe it to be a station.(or department??).
Rates for larger Postcards (not postal cards),has changed several times in the past 10 years.
for 2010 large-oversized PCs will be 1st class rate,and greeting card size- envelopes will be 73c--a new Butterfly stamp to be issued for this rate,and subsequent butterflys series for same rate.(Of course this is another subject).
What say ,Arno, size,station,??
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Oh do I need a scanner.
Another post card of interest/dual cancel.
Sort of recieving cancel,,
from Jacksonville, Florida to Vandergrift,PA.
FL cancel with 23cm circle/wavy lines,16 jul 1984,and on top of that cancel a PA cancel 20cm circle cancel/rectangle with logo of Give the United Way,19 jul 1984.
These are machine cancels.And offset enough to read clean clear cancels.On message side.
On picture side,an angled part cancel of sorts,can only read 55 AA (????).
Also ,this is an oversized card-with 13c /1st class rate stamp.
TOM
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Hello everyone,
I probably kicked down an avalanche with now three threads that I have to follow up on. Let's take this one for tonight and I will get to the other topics hopefully tomorrow.
Now. This card really does not look like much. However it has been instrumental in my understanding of the modern US ink jet cancellations. Prior I had a working knowledge of the Canadian ink jet cancels. These are based on an entirely different mechanical principle. However, I did not know that for the longest time, though, and that is why the US ink jet cancels made so little sense to me.
Now, what is this cancel on the front of the card? It is not a received cancel, because it is from Houston and from the same date as the origin cancel on the back of the card. It is also not just an offset smudge, because if it were just an ink transfer from another letter, it should show a mirror image. Also, note it is not the exact same cancel, one is "6 T" the other "6 L," so one cannot be the offset of the other.
The solution is that there are TWO spray heads to each jet spray cancellation device. In the first step ('culling'), the machine automatically pulls out all mail matter suitable for mechanical processing. Then ('facing') the letters are put in a position for automatic cancelling.
Traditionally, this required organizing all envelopes such that the stamp was in the bottom left corner. Then the envelopes were fed into the machine - right to left - with the bottom left (stamp) corner leading. The canceling die was mounted upside down in the machine such that after the cancellation was applied, the letter was cancelled 'face right'. (I hope you can visualize the cancelling process -- it would certainly be easier if I had some instructional graphics to show).
Now, however, because there are two spray heads, the new ink jet cancels only require that the stamp is at the bottom. Then there are two possibilities: The stamp will be in the bottom left corner if the address side is up, or in the bottom right position on the back of the cover if the back of the cover is up.
The above postcard was automatically fed into the machine from right to left with the bottom edge of the picture side leading:
Leading <====== direction of travel <=====
No cancellation should have been triggered, but maybe because of the reflection of the glossy card or for some other reason a cancel was applied. As the card travelled through the device half way the second cancelling head was triggered by the stamp on the reverse side. So the arrangment is that there are two cancelling heads, mounted facing each other, and the mail matter travels in between them. Depending on which side of the envelope the stamp is affixed either head 1 or 2 is triggered. Thus, we can solve the mystery of the 'T' and 'L' designations: L indicates the Leading, T the Trailing ink jet.
<====== direction of travel <===== Cancelled by "trailing" jet spray on opposing side
This card really made the actual principle of the ink jet cancels 'click' for me. The Canadian cancels, with which I am much more familiar, work on an entirely different principle. Covers are fed standing on the bottom edge, not top edge. So for long last I could not figure out the mechanical principle of the modern ink jet cancels in the US. Well, here you go.
Really, if you can show another item that has an 'L' cancel on one side and a 'T' cancel on the other, I would be interested to see it. It is the only one I found so far.
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That's neat Arno, thank you for sharing your knowledge. If I ever find a cover like this, I'll send it to you.
Tom, can't wait to see your covers after you get that elusive scanner.
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Ok. It is my understanding that this corner is not reserved for the rare and unusual, yet to say pricey. To make my point, here is a recent 25c acquisition of mine: a San Francisco postcard, mailed from Houston, Texas, August 11, 2006, to Cleveland, Ohio:
Here is the front of the card:
Well, obviously there is a reason why I am showing this card here. In fact, I have been looking for an item like it for a while, screening hundreds if not thousands of covers from the last couple of years. I hope to find a better one eventually, but this is what I can show for now.
Now, I promise not to let you in limbo for long, but what do YOU think why this card is a case for the cover corner?
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06:05:28pm
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Well,lets see, an american picture postcard,printed in Korea,presumedly mailed from SF,California,with a Houston, TX cancel.
now that's a mixer.
It could be the sender did not mail it until he got back home (Houston?).
Does Smith Novelty Co. still exist?
I dont know what SF looks like,,is that S F or is it L A.
also a bit odd that the card recieved a cancel on both front and back.
wasnt postcard rate 24c in 2006 ?
TOM
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re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
@ Tom
Hello! Thank you for taking a first stab.
Well, let's see:
"an american picture postcard,printed in Korea,presumedly mailed from SF,California,with a Houston, TX cancel. Now that's a mixer." ==> Yes
"It could be the sender did not mail it until he got back home (Houston?)." ==> yes. maybe.
"Does Smith Novelty Co. still exist?" ==> No idea.
"I dont know what SF looks like,,is that S F or is it L A." ==> or Houston?
"also a bit odd that the card recieved a cancel on both front and back." ==> Yes. This is going in the right direction, but need to be a little more specific ...
"wasnt postcard rate 24c in 2006 ?" ==> Where are the rate experts when you need them?
To be continued?
(Message edited by rhinelander on January 24, 2010)
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re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Where was the front of the card cancelled? I can't read it. LOL, don't make us wait too long!
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re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Hello Doe,
Thank you for chiming in.
"Where was the front of the card cancelled? I can't read it." ==> Here are better(?) images of the cancels:
(Message edited by rhinelander on January 24, 2010)
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re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
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07:41:22pm
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Well,I'm stumped.Backstamped is usually a recieved cancel .In your case,a Cleveland Ohio back stamp.If they even do those anymore in 2006
I checked a few of my coil cards and found one.
franked with 5c washington coil.
both front and back are canceled as yours,,
West Palm Beach FL 81
PM---21/FEB --- 1969--Circle cancel with 7 wavy lines. card printed by D&N Post Card CO.,West PalmBeach,FL.--Pictiure features -Wells Road,Palm Beach, Florida.
Adessed to Pomano Beach,Fl.
Sure wish I could have posted a pic.
TOM
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re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
"Backstamped is usually a recieved cancel. In your case,a Cleveland Ohio back stamp." ==> Yes, backstamps tend to be received cancel. The cancel is hard to read; smudged because of the glossy finish of the card which does not absorb the ink well. Nevertheless, I do not think it reads Cleveland ...
Since Tom has gotten us so close: This backstamp -- poorly legible as it is -- is really where all "the action" is for me in this postcard. I was very excited to find it. So, what is this cancel? What is its significance? How did it get there?
(Message edited by rhinelander on January 24, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Addendum:
"I checked a few of my coil cards and found one.
franked with 5c washington coil. both front and back are canceled as yours," ==> I'd be interested to see a picture if you can get your hands on a scanner. Received cancel on regular first class letters in 1969 are certainly unusal. To be specific, the practice of backstamping all ordinary mail was discontinued following the Postmaster General's Order No. 7107 of May 8, 1913. The practice of applying received markings to incoming postcards had already been officially halted in 1907.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
usually, if one sees a spray on on both sides the reverse usually shows offset, not full cancellation. there is nothing that should have triggered the face side spray on.
the bottom of the spray ons are different, with one showing 6L and the other 6T. not sure what this means....
always love your puzzles Arno
David, the Cleveland expat
Login to Like
this post
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
I have a good friend who collects spray cancels on 3x5 pieces. (I also send him all my modern meter mail for one of his friends.) But, there are a few exceptions where I keep the entire; PNCs, MPPs, Postcards etc... So I can't wait to find out what is uncommon about the cancel, and keep an eye out for it. Well I'm assuming it's the cancel... lol, it is Arno's cover after all.
Login to Like
this post
03:56:18pm
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Does anyone else have the enlargement button on thier comp screen?Bottom right corner-says +100%.
Point and click rasises it to 125 and 150 %.
Well I do,and at 150% the cancel on picture does show as Houston.
The T and L could mean the card was suspect of being oversized,rejected,transfered to another department,postage and size approved,recanceled at the second station and sent along.
Not sure of the letter (T - L) designation or what,but believe it to be a station.(or department??).
Rates for larger Postcards (not postal cards),has changed several times in the past 10 years.
for 2010 large-oversized PCs will be 1st class rate,and greeting card size- envelopes will be 73c--a new Butterfly stamp to be issued for this rate,and subsequent butterflys series for same rate.(Of course this is another subject).
What say ,Arno, size,station,??
Login to Like
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04:21:13pm
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Oh do I need a scanner.
Another post card of interest/dual cancel.
Sort of recieving cancel,,
from Jacksonville, Florida to Vandergrift,PA.
FL cancel with 23cm circle/wavy lines,16 jul 1984,and on top of that cancel a PA cancel 20cm circle cancel/rectangle with logo of Give the United Way,19 jul 1984.
These are machine cancels.And offset enough to read clean clear cancels.On message side.
On picture side,an angled part cancel of sorts,can only read 55 AA (????).
Also ,this is an oversized card-with 13c /1st class rate stamp.
TOM
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this post
re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
Hello everyone,
I probably kicked down an avalanche with now three threads that I have to follow up on. Let's take this one for tonight and I will get to the other topics hopefully tomorrow.
Now. This card really does not look like much. However it has been instrumental in my understanding of the modern US ink jet cancellations. Prior I had a working knowledge of the Canadian ink jet cancels. These are based on an entirely different mechanical principle. However, I did not know that for the longest time, though, and that is why the US ink jet cancels made so little sense to me.
Now, what is this cancel on the front of the card? It is not a received cancel, because it is from Houston and from the same date as the origin cancel on the back of the card. It is also not just an offset smudge, because if it were just an ink transfer from another letter, it should show a mirror image. Also, note it is not the exact same cancel, one is "6 T" the other "6 L," so one cannot be the offset of the other.
The solution is that there are TWO spray heads to each jet spray cancellation device. In the first step ('culling'), the machine automatically pulls out all mail matter suitable for mechanical processing. Then ('facing') the letters are put in a position for automatic cancelling.
Traditionally, this required organizing all envelopes such that the stamp was in the bottom left corner. Then the envelopes were fed into the machine - right to left - with the bottom left (stamp) corner leading. The canceling die was mounted upside down in the machine such that after the cancellation was applied, the letter was cancelled 'face right'. (I hope you can visualize the cancelling process -- it would certainly be easier if I had some instructional graphics to show).
Now, however, because there are two spray heads, the new ink jet cancels only require that the stamp is at the bottom. Then there are two possibilities: The stamp will be in the bottom left corner if the address side is up, or in the bottom right position on the back of the cover if the back of the cover is up.
The above postcard was automatically fed into the machine from right to left with the bottom edge of the picture side leading:
Leading <====== direction of travel <=====
No cancellation should have been triggered, but maybe because of the reflection of the glossy card or for some other reason a cancel was applied. As the card travelled through the device half way the second cancelling head was triggered by the stamp on the reverse side. So the arrangment is that there are two cancelling heads, mounted facing each other, and the mail matter travels in between them. Depending on which side of the envelope the stamp is affixed either head 1 or 2 is triggered. Thus, we can solve the mystery of the 'T' and 'L' designations: L indicates the Leading, T the Trailing ink jet.
<====== direction of travel <===== Cancelled by "trailing" jet spray on opposing side
This card really made the actual principle of the ink jet cancels 'click' for me. The Canadian cancels, with which I am much more familiar, work on an entirely different principle. Covers are fed standing on the bottom edge, not top edge. So for long last I could not figure out the mechanical principle of the modern ink jet cancels in the US. Well, here you go.
Really, if you can show another item that has an 'L' cancel on one side and a 'T' cancel on the other, I would be interested to see it. It is the only one I found so far.
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re: Ink jet (jet spray) cancels
That's neat Arno, thank you for sharing your knowledge. If I ever find a cover like this, I'll send it to you.
Tom, can't wait to see your covers after you get that elusive scanner.
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