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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

 

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Joeg
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10 May 2010
07:58:07am
Does anyone have an opinion on the use of Scott numbers in creating and distributing topical checklists?

I have been working up a list of topical stamps featuring Boy and Girl Scouts and have been thinking of using it in my Boy Scout merit badge classes. The list would be shared with other Scouting collectors free of charge.

Use of the Scott catalogue number would help with tracking and categorizing. However, when I read the copyright info in the catalogue, it seems the only allowed usage is for price lists used for purchase or sale, for advertising, or for editorial use.

I have seen other topical lists using Scott numbers. What do you think is happening here? Does Scott allow this usage? Are these list creators obtaining permission? Or is it just a simple matter of Scott (Amos Publishing) not knowing about the list, or perhaps looking the other way?
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Dani20
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10 May 2010
08:24:53am
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

A personal opinion, without the weight of law & knowledge behind it, is that the copyright function is used to prevent infringement that has a commercial intent behind it. If your use doesn't get you a profit or become part of a commercial effort, there is no issue to be concerned about.
Dan

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Fatherauld

10 May 2010
08:44:45am
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

I would think that the use that you have in mind could be argued that is falls into all the allowed uses stated by the copyright. I would think that Scott would only have a problem if you were creating a new catalog for sale and using the term "Scott Catalog Number" in it.

Regards ... Tim

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Doe
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10 May 2010
08:52:27am
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

My post is also mere opinion. I agree with Dan, and add that it is in Amos Publishing's best (financial) interests to encourage collectors to use Scott numbers when referring to stamps. If the collectors I interact with, were using another publisher's reference numbers on a regular basis (as Scott is used the US), it would be the other publishers' catalogs I would be seeking. The more their numbers are used, the more in demand their catalogs become.

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Bobstamp
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10 May 2010
09:15:21am
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

As I understand it, Scott is only interested preventing the use of its numbering system by would-be competitors. A checklist or want list or even a sales list is not likely to compete with Scott. In cases where Scott number are used in a sales catalogue which is often used like a Scott catalogue, I expect that the right to use the numbers is purchased from Scott.

It would be interesting to write to Scott and just ask.

Bob

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

10 May 2010
10:06:52am

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re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

I agree with all the opinions stated above; however, it would be best to check with Amos and seek their permission. Technically, your use of their numbering system doesn't fall under "fair use" category and its use could be contested. I think they would grant it (it IS in their interest to promote their system and encourage subsequent use; and who wants to be perceived screwing Scouts, especially in their centennial year), still, "an ounce of prevention," "be prepared," are good adages to go along with "Amos has more lawyers than us."

David

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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

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Parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

10 May 2010
09:23:15pm
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

I know that you are providing this list for free but doesn't the ATA (American Topical Society) already have this list? Domfil also has a scouting catalogue on CD that Amos (Scott) has on sale:
https://www.amosadvantage.com/scottonline/product.asp?part%5Fno=SCOUTCD&tab=stamp&category=AABS that cross references between Domfil, Scott, Michel, Yvert and Unificato

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"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

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Joeg
Members Picture


10 May 2010
10:58:44pm
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

Parkinlot, that takes all the fun out of it. :-)

Actually, you hit on a couple of good ideas. I'm not currently a member of the ATA, but I should check that out. In addition, the Domfil reference looks very handy, and it's a heck of a price (10 bucks!)

While I was looking for an interesting project to get my Scouts involved in, there's no sense in re-inventing the wheel completely. I'll be sure to check on those. It's possible that I might be able to refer Scouters to these references instead of developing our own.

Of course, we may end up with some Scouters who enjoy a challenge. You can never tell with those old Scoutmasters....

As for everyone else in this discussion, thank you very much for the advice on the Scott numbering issues. In the end, if I do plan to use Scott numbers in any significant amount, it sounds like Envelopeplease's suggestion of writing Amos for permission is probably the most prudent option.

Again, thanks everyone!

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Cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

27 Nov 2010
03:07:01pm
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

There were once several weekly stamp periodicals serving the US market and in the 1960s I subscribed to the two, then surviving, most popular, Linn's and Western Stamp Collector.
Western was published twice a week and drew its name from the fact that it was produced by the Van Dahl family in Oregon.
I noticed that when they both arrived on the same day, I could read through Linn's, usually the thicker, in fifteen or twenty minutes, but it took a good hour to cover all that was of interest in Western and, even then, there were times I had to set it aside to finish later.

However Western was eventually sold to a publisher that seemed to be more interested in other corporate matters and it was later acquired by Kuause Publishing which also owned the rights to the Minkus ccatalogs and albums.

I don't recall exactly but I believe that Krause began to list both the Minkus Catalog numbers alongside the equivalent Scott numbers since while the Minkus numbering was used by some dealers, possibly out of loyalty to Jacques Minkus who operated the gigantic Stamp Department in Gimbals department Store in Manhattan New York.
I'll admit that having two competing numbering systems can be confusing at times but Minkus listed virtually everything and usually had a slightly better description of the stamps's purpose.

Scott Publishing Company, along with Linn's Stamp News, meanwhile had been bought by Amos Publishing and as the owners of the copyright for what was actually the more popular numbering system took umbrage at what they considered an infringement of those property rights and of course, in the best spirit of the American Way, sued.

The case was eventually settled in a confidential agreement, Krause continued to print both numbers and soon afterward Amos Publishing bought all the stamp operations of both Minkus, Krause and the dormant (Western) Stamp Collector, thus ending the need for and usefulness of Minkus numbers.

I believe that in the front of the Scott catalog there is a statement about the casual philatelic use of the Scott numbers.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Michael78651

28 Nov 2010
12:57:21am
re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

If you want to know the license that Scott gives for the use of its numbering system, read the copyright notice on the table of contents page of the catalog. There are no ifs, and or buts. It'
s all there as to what is and is not allowed. As regards to your topical checklist, I do believe the ATA will have it already done for you.

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
Joeg

10 May 2010
07:58:07am

Does anyone have an opinion on the use of Scott numbers in creating and distributing topical checklists?

I have been working up a list of topical stamps featuring Boy and Girl Scouts and have been thinking of using it in my Boy Scout merit badge classes. The list would be shared with other Scouting collectors free of charge.

Use of the Scott catalogue number would help with tracking and categorizing. However, when I read the copyright info in the catalogue, it seems the only allowed usage is for price lists used for purchase or sale, for advertising, or for editorial use.

I have seen other topical lists using Scott numbers. What do you think is happening here? Does Scott allow this usage? Are these list creators obtaining permission? Or is it just a simple matter of Scott (Amos Publishing) not knowing about the list, or perhaps looking the other way?

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Members Picture
Dani20

10 May 2010
08:24:53am

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

A personal opinion, without the weight of law & knowledge behind it, is that the copyright function is used to prevent infringement that has a commercial intent behind it. If your use doesn't get you a profit or become part of a commercial effort, there is no issue to be concerned about.
Dan

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this post
Fatherauld

10 May 2010
08:44:45am

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

I would think that the use that you have in mind could be argued that is falls into all the allowed uses stated by the copyright. I would think that Scott would only have a problem if you were creating a new catalog for sale and using the term "Scott Catalog Number" in it.

Regards ... Tim

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this post
Members Picture
Doe

10 May 2010
08:52:27am

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

My post is also mere opinion. I agree with Dan, and add that it is in Amos Publishing's best (financial) interests to encourage collectors to use Scott numbers when referring to stamps. If the collectors I interact with, were using another publisher's reference numbers on a regular basis (as Scott is used the US), it would be the other publishers' catalogs I would be seeking. The more their numbers are used, the more in demand their catalogs become.

Like
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this post
Members Picture
Bobstamp

10 May 2010
09:15:21am

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

As I understand it, Scott is only interested preventing the use of its numbering system by would-be competitors. A checklist or want list or even a sales list is not likely to compete with Scott. In cases where Scott number are used in a sales catalogue which is often used like a Scott catalogue, I expect that the right to use the numbers is purchased from Scott.

It would be interesting to write to Scott and just ask.

Bob

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www.ephemeraltreasur ...
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
10 May 2010
10:06:52am

Auctions

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

I agree with all the opinions stated above; however, it would be best to check with Amos and seek their permission. Technically, your use of their numbering system doesn't fall under "fair use" category and its use could be contested. I think they would grant it (it IS in their interest to promote their system and encourage subsequent use; and who wants to be perceived screwing Scouts, especially in their centennial year), still, "an ounce of prevention," "be prepared," are good adages to go along with "Amos has more lawyers than us."

David

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...

Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
10 May 2010
09:23:15pm

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

I know that you are providing this list for free but doesn't the ATA (American Topical Society) already have this list? Domfil also has a scouting catalogue on CD that Amos (Scott) has on sale:
https://www.amosadvantage.com/scottonline/product.asp?part%5Fno=SCOUTCD&tab=stamp&category=AABS that cross references between Domfil, Scott, Michel, Yvert and Unificato

Like
Login to Like
this post

"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
Joeg

10 May 2010
10:58:44pm

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

Parkinlot, that takes all the fun out of it. :-)

Actually, you hit on a couple of good ideas. I'm not currently a member of the ATA, but I should check that out. In addition, the Domfil reference looks very handy, and it's a heck of a price (10 bucks!)

While I was looking for an interesting project to get my Scouts involved in, there's no sense in re-inventing the wheel completely. I'll be sure to check on those. It's possible that I might be able to refer Scouters to these references instead of developing our own.

Of course, we may end up with some Scouters who enjoy a challenge. You can never tell with those old Scoutmasters....

As for everyone else in this discussion, thank you very much for the advice on the Scott numbering issues. In the end, if I do plan to use Scott numbers in any significant amount, it sounds like Envelopeplease's suggestion of writing Amos for permission is probably the most prudent option.

Again, thanks everyone!

Like
Login to Like
this post

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Nov 2010
03:07:01pm

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

There were once several weekly stamp periodicals serving the US market and in the 1960s I subscribed to the two, then surviving, most popular, Linn's and Western Stamp Collector.
Western was published twice a week and drew its name from the fact that it was produced by the Van Dahl family in Oregon.
I noticed that when they both arrived on the same day, I could read through Linn's, usually the thicker, in fifteen or twenty minutes, but it took a good hour to cover all that was of interest in Western and, even then, there were times I had to set it aside to finish later.

However Western was eventually sold to a publisher that seemed to be more interested in other corporate matters and it was later acquired by Kuause Publishing which also owned the rights to the Minkus ccatalogs and albums.

I don't recall exactly but I believe that Krause began to list both the Minkus Catalog numbers alongside the equivalent Scott numbers since while the Minkus numbering was used by some dealers, possibly out of loyalty to Jacques Minkus who operated the gigantic Stamp Department in Gimbals department Store in Manhattan New York.
I'll admit that having two competing numbering systems can be confusing at times but Minkus listed virtually everything and usually had a slightly better description of the stamps's purpose.

Scott Publishing Company, along with Linn's Stamp News, meanwhile had been bought by Amos Publishing and as the owners of the copyright for what was actually the more popular numbering system took umbrage at what they considered an infringement of those property rights and of course, in the best spirit of the American Way, sued.

The case was eventually settled in a confidential agreement, Krause continued to print both numbers and soon afterward Amos Publishing bought all the stamp operations of both Minkus, Krause and the dormant (Western) Stamp Collector, thus ending the need for and usefulness of Minkus numbers.

I believe that in the front of the Scott catalog there is a statement about the casual philatelic use of the Scott numbers.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Michael78651

28 Nov 2010
12:57:21am

re: Copyright Question: Can I use Scott Numbers for checklists?

If you want to know the license that Scott gives for the use of its numbering system, read the copyright notice on the table of contents page of the catalog. There are no ifs, and or buts. It'
s all there as to what is and is not allowed. As regards to your topical checklist, I do believe the ATA will have it already done for you.

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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