Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Well, a guy named Frank goes to the post office....
OK, I'll play nice. Franking usually refers to the type of postage stamps used to pay postage, but according to Ask Phil it can also "refer to a mark or signature that indicates payment of postage on a piece of mail." Thus, a "free-franked" cover would not have a stamp, but could have a signature or a marking indicating that stamps are not required. Politicians in elected office and soldiers serving in combat zones normally have free franking privileges.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
You better not have any un-franked FDC's. The whole purpose of the FDC is to show the stamp that is being issued on the first day. 
Bob
Login to Like
this post
That's true of ordinary official and privately/commercially produced FDCs, and of course those that are created inadvertently by people just mailing a letter and paying no attention to the stamp. But how about free-franked covers?
There certainly were days on which V-mail, Airgraphs and privilege envelopes were first used, and those would certainly be FDCs. The same would be true of ordinary free-franked soldiers' mail from combat zones: For example, there had to be a day in the American Vietnam War when combatants were given the privilege of sending mail without postage. Any letters or postcards mailed on that day would be First Day Covers. Hmmm.... A new collecting area.....
(Message edited by bobstamp on June 26, 2008)
Login to Like
this post
Bob I,
wouldn't the free frank privilege for service folks in VN been available from the day the first advisors arrived? Or not? Or did they have to wait for the Marines in 64?
and what day was that? I think Eisenhower was the first to send advisors, right?
David
Login to Like
this post
I have no idea when free franking in Vietnam began, but I would certainly like to know!
The Marines didn't land in force in Vietnam until 1965; read The Marine War: III MAF in Vietnam, 1965-1971. The author, Jack Shulimson, is the official historian for the Marine Corps.
You are correct that it was Eisenhower who sent the first military advisors in, but Harry Truman initiated U.S. military aid (money and weapons) for France in its attempt to maintain its grip on Indochina, of which Vietnam was a part. Roosevelt had wanted to let the Vietnamese govern themselves, but that plan died with him.
At the end of the Second World War, British troops sent to Saigon to supervise the repatriation of Japanese soldiers ended up releasing the Japanese POW's, arming them, and using them as conscripts to fight the fledgling Vietminh communist force under Ho Chi Minh. Ho Chi Minh's troops were heavily outgunned, and gave up any hope that the West would help the Vietnamese to throw off the yoke of French Colonialsm. The die was cast for America's tragic involvement in Vietnamese affairs, but American politicians apparently didn't learn a thing from the experience, except how to make better weapons. (It's interesting to note that an unknown number of Japanese in North Vietnam were never repatriated, and fought alongside the Vietminh against the French.)
Bob
Login to Like
this post
Further notes on free franking:
• Canadians serving in France in the First World War could send letters to Canada without postage, but the letters couldn't be delivered without postage being paid. Thus, stamps were added in Canada (apparently through the good offices of volunteer organizations), and the letters were then delivered. Thus, we see free-franked military covers with Canadian stamps applied over the field post-office markings and cancelled in Canadian cities. I have one such cover, with an enclosed letter from an officer to his wife in Victoria. Also enclosed is a small glassine with dried poppies; in his letter he mentions the poppies growing near the trenches.
• Australians serving in Vietnam at first had to pay postage -- there was even a special booklet of stamps produced which was designed to withstand the high humidity in Vietnam. Later, the Diggers got the right to use free franking. I have examples of both stamped and free-franked Australian Forces mail.
• There was a program in place in Vietnam whereby families who were separated by the partition of the country could send "family postcards" to each other. These were special postcards which have no evidence of franking at all, either paid or free, and they took months to reach their destinations, probably travelling along the Ho Chi Minh Trail. They're not common, and are always expensive. I have just one; a disturbing aspect of it is that there's a dark spot on it which looks for all the world like blood.
You could probably find first-day covers representing each of these types of covers, but it would likely take most of your lifetime, and even then you might not succeed. But then the thrill of collecting is in the search, isn't it?
Bob
Login to Like
this post
Here in the UK franked is also used for "cancelled by a postmark". If a stamp is postally used it is said to be franked. I am sure that this started out as an erroneous term - or at least an inexact one but it is now in fairly common usage
Malcolm
Login to Like
this post
FDC.first day cover,refers to the first day of issue of the stamp.
Earlier covers-pre-fdc invention, as well as the odd ball types,such as "free" ,are not FDCs, but falls under the catagory of EKU--earliest know use.
Actualy,,what we are calling FDC is really a FDI,first day of issue,or in cases of types of stampless covers, FDU- firstday of use.
V N /free frank, mentioned above, falls under FDU.
One could consider anything different or new,as a first day.But not a first day cover.
A new type cancelation or special occassion cancel could be a fisrt day,if the date is of the first day it was used.And on and on. But these type covers fall under the "Event Cover" catagory.
I wish I had the first postcard I mailed home to my parents from church camp--I could call it a First Day Cover. An event cover,,the first time my parents got me to go somewhere I did not want to go. A dual cover-- FDC/EC.
Login to Like
this post
OK, here's some gum to throw into the works.
What exactly do you call those envelopes that were mailed in the U.S. around the second half of the 19th Century that do not have affixed stamps?
These are the envelopes that have, in some cases, a stamped mark that says something such as "Postage Paid 3c, Milford, MA" or the like. Also, they might have just a handwritten "Postage Paid 3c" or similar.
I have about a half dozen of these (with the letters)that I keep at the beginning of my U.S. collection, which I think is a fitting place for these pieces of history .
Thanks to any who might help.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
Stampless covers; here's the definition from Ask Phil: Stampless cover: 1: mail sent by post prior to the start of the prepaid postage stamp. 2: Altbrief (Ger.); Lettre PrephilatŽlique (Fr.); Busta Prefilatelica (It.); Sobre PrefilatŽlico (Sp.)
AskPhil is a great resource. The URL: http://www.askphil.org/b25.htm
Bob
Login to Like
this post
When I posed the question about covers without stamps, I was aware of the definition for "Stampless Covers" that the "Ask Phil" site gives. However, as Shakespeare put it, "Ay, there's the rub."
My question was about letters that were posted in the second half of the 19th Century, well after the introduction of the postage stamp. Of course they are stampless, but the question is why?
My thinking was that they may have been some early form of "locals or regionals", but that is mere speculation on my part.
And so the search for knowledge goes on....
Bob
Login to Like
this post
Boston Bob,
here's where the "picture is worth a thousand words" comes into roost. Let's see it. But a few speculative thoughts.
First, while the US introduced stamps in 1847, they weren't compulsory until around 1859 (that date may not be correct, but it's close).
This period is a state of flux, as letters are moving from payment upon receipt (that is, the recipient, not the sender, was expected to pay for the letter, upon delivery) to prepaid (the sender pays). Stamps were an easy way to document prepayment. But, of course, manuscript notations were used prior to stamps and long after their introduction to document payment. I'm not an expert on this area, but I suspect that few post offices were large enough to maintain a stock of devices showing fees paid, especially given that prior to stamps, which made the fees universal per weight, given the large number of rates that could be charged based on the number of sheets in a mailing and the distance travelled.
The "Milford MA" cover could very well be a permit indicum that was used to document one of a large number of covers being mailed at once. Fees would have been paid directly to the post office to cover the cost of the mailing (generally many letters at once). A scan would go a long way to helping determine this. And let us know if the letter is personal or business. A scan of a representative letter would also be useful.
Doubtful that either is a local or regional.
This starts the ball rolling. Let's see more Bob, and hear from others.
David
Login to Like
this post
David,
Excellent!!! That was great information. Thanks for taking the time to provide that perspective.
I wanted to provide pics/scans of some of the covers, so thought the best way would be to provide direct links to Photobucket, so here they are:
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/Susannah.jpg
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/Trio.jpg
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/middlefield.jpg
I hope that these are of interest and that I can possibly learn more about them.
Bob
Oh yeah, I should have added that the letters aren't much more than common communication between friends and/or relatives. The only really interesting stuff was the prices for foodstuffs.
(Message edited by Boston_Bob on December 06, 2008)
Login to Like
this post
Bob,
Susannah documents prepayment of 3c for the trip between somewhere in NYS and somewhere in Mass. As you Boston boys probably know, NY and Mass share an enormous border, so they could have been in stone-throwing distance. 3c is the minimal charge for the shortest distance. It's interesting that your usage also shows early use of envelopes, so it's that neat cover that's transending both the shift from collect mail to stamps AND the shift from letter sheets to envelopes. Nice.
David
Login to Like
this post
Ditto on the trio, except one of the three also has the originating Post Office cancel
Login to Like
this post
Thanks again David.
Though it's somewhat off topic, I thought you might be interested in another "stampless" envelope that I have, although this one is stampless because it was never mailed. :-)
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/kresge.jpg
Perhaps a collector of advertising covers might find this interesting, eh?
Regards,
Bob
Login to Like
this post
bob, that IS a fabulous advertising cover; it's not off topic, just shifting the focus some. It's a great design. thanks for sharing. David
Login to Like
this post
01:25:04am
What do they mean when they say an FDC is Franked? krittergitr@rock.com
Login to Like
this post
01:32:54am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Well, a guy named Frank goes to the post office....
OK, I'll play nice. Franking usually refers to the type of postage stamps used to pay postage, but according to Ask Phil it can also "refer to a mark or signature that indicates payment of postage on a piece of mail." Thus, a "free-franked" cover would not have a stamp, but could have a signature or a marking indicating that stamps are not required. Politicians in elected office and soldiers serving in combat zones normally have free franking privileges.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
11:27:31am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
You better not have any un-franked FDC's. The whole purpose of the FDC is to show the stamp that is being issued on the first day.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
11:56:11am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
That's true of ordinary official and privately/commercially produced FDCs, and of course those that are created inadvertently by people just mailing a letter and paying no attention to the stamp. But how about free-franked covers?
There certainly were days on which V-mail, Airgraphs and privilege envelopes were first used, and those would certainly be FDCs. The same would be true of ordinary free-franked soldiers' mail from combat zones: For example, there had to be a day in the American Vietnam War when combatants were given the privilege of sending mail without postage. Any letters or postcards mailed on that day would be First Day Covers. Hmmm.... A new collecting area.....
(Message edited by bobstamp on June 26, 2008)
Login to Like
this post
10:26:47am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Bob I,
wouldn't the free frank privilege for service folks in VN been available from the day the first advisors arrived? Or not? Or did they have to wait for the Marines in 64?
and what day was that? I think Eisenhower was the first to send advisors, right?
David
Login to Like
this post
12:00:52pm
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
I have no idea when free franking in Vietnam began, but I would certainly like to know!
The Marines didn't land in force in Vietnam until 1965; read The Marine War: III MAF in Vietnam, 1965-1971. The author, Jack Shulimson, is the official historian for the Marine Corps.
You are correct that it was Eisenhower who sent the first military advisors in, but Harry Truman initiated U.S. military aid (money and weapons) for France in its attempt to maintain its grip on Indochina, of which Vietnam was a part. Roosevelt had wanted to let the Vietnamese govern themselves, but that plan died with him.
At the end of the Second World War, British troops sent to Saigon to supervise the repatriation of Japanese soldiers ended up releasing the Japanese POW's, arming them, and using them as conscripts to fight the fledgling Vietminh communist force under Ho Chi Minh. Ho Chi Minh's troops were heavily outgunned, and gave up any hope that the West would help the Vietnamese to throw off the yoke of French Colonialsm. The die was cast for America's tragic involvement in Vietnamese affairs, but American politicians apparently didn't learn a thing from the experience, except how to make better weapons. (It's interesting to note that an unknown number of Japanese in North Vietnam were never repatriated, and fought alongside the Vietminh against the French.)
Bob
Login to Like
this post
01:06:16pm
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Further notes on free franking:
• Canadians serving in France in the First World War could send letters to Canada without postage, but the letters couldn't be delivered without postage being paid. Thus, stamps were added in Canada (apparently through the good offices of volunteer organizations), and the letters were then delivered. Thus, we see free-franked military covers with Canadian stamps applied over the field post-office markings and cancelled in Canadian cities. I have one such cover, with an enclosed letter from an officer to his wife in Victoria. Also enclosed is a small glassine with dried poppies; in his letter he mentions the poppies growing near the trenches.
• Australians serving in Vietnam at first had to pay postage -- there was even a special booklet of stamps produced which was designed to withstand the high humidity in Vietnam. Later, the Diggers got the right to use free franking. I have examples of both stamped and free-franked Australian Forces mail.
• There was a program in place in Vietnam whereby families who were separated by the partition of the country could send "family postcards" to each other. These were special postcards which have no evidence of franking at all, either paid or free, and they took months to reach their destinations, probably travelling along the Ho Chi Minh Trail. They're not common, and are always expensive. I have just one; a disturbing aspect of it is that there's a dark spot on it which looks for all the world like blood.
You could probably find first-day covers representing each of these types of covers, but it would likely take most of your lifetime, and even then you might not succeed. But then the thrill of collecting is in the search, isn't it?
Bob
Login to Like
this post
04:35:16am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Here in the UK franked is also used for "cancelled by a postmark". If a stamp is postally used it is said to be franked. I am sure that this started out as an erroneous term - or at least an inexact one but it is now in fairly common usage
Malcolm
Login to Like
this post
09:32:18am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
FDC.first day cover,refers to the first day of issue of the stamp.
Earlier covers-pre-fdc invention, as well as the odd ball types,such as "free" ,are not FDCs, but falls under the catagory of EKU--earliest know use.
Actualy,,what we are calling FDC is really a FDI,first day of issue,or in cases of types of stampless covers, FDU- firstday of use.
V N /free frank, mentioned above, falls under FDU.
One could consider anything different or new,as a first day.But not a first day cover.
A new type cancelation or special occassion cancel could be a fisrt day,if the date is of the first day it was used.And on and on. But these type covers fall under the "Event Cover" catagory.
I wish I had the first postcard I mailed home to my parents from church camp--I could call it a First Day Cover. An event cover,,the first time my parents got me to go somewhere I did not want to go. A dual cover-- FDC/EC.
Login to Like
this post
09:26:02pm
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
OK, here's some gum to throw into the works.
What exactly do you call those envelopes that were mailed in the U.S. around the second half of the 19th Century that do not have affixed stamps?
These are the envelopes that have, in some cases, a stamped mark that says something such as "Postage Paid 3c, Milford, MA" or the like. Also, they might have just a handwritten "Postage Paid 3c" or similar.
I have about a half dozen of these (with the letters)that I keep at the beginning of my U.S. collection, which I think is a fitting place for these pieces of history .
Thanks to any who might help.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Stampless covers; here's the definition from Ask Phil: Stampless cover: 1: mail sent by post prior to the start of the prepaid postage stamp. 2: Altbrief (Ger.); Lettre PrephilatŽlique (Fr.); Busta Prefilatelica (It.); Sobre PrefilatŽlico (Sp.)
AskPhil is a great resource. The URL: http://www.askphil.org/b25.htm
Bob
Login to Like
this post
07:02:28am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
When I posed the question about covers without stamps, I was aware of the definition for "Stampless Covers" that the "Ask Phil" site gives. However, as Shakespeare put it, "Ay, there's the rub."
My question was about letters that were posted in the second half of the 19th Century, well after the introduction of the postage stamp. Of course they are stampless, but the question is why?
My thinking was that they may have been some early form of "locals or regionals", but that is mere speculation on my part.
And so the search for knowledge goes on....
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Boston Bob,
here's where the "picture is worth a thousand words" comes into roost. Let's see it. But a few speculative thoughts.
First, while the US introduced stamps in 1847, they weren't compulsory until around 1859 (that date may not be correct, but it's close).
This period is a state of flux, as letters are moving from payment upon receipt (that is, the recipient, not the sender, was expected to pay for the letter, upon delivery) to prepaid (the sender pays). Stamps were an easy way to document prepayment. But, of course, manuscript notations were used prior to stamps and long after their introduction to document payment. I'm not an expert on this area, but I suspect that few post offices were large enough to maintain a stock of devices showing fees paid, especially given that prior to stamps, which made the fees universal per weight, given the large number of rates that could be charged based on the number of sheets in a mailing and the distance travelled.
The "Milford MA" cover could very well be a permit indicum that was used to document one of a large number of covers being mailed at once. Fees would have been paid directly to the post office to cover the cost of the mailing (generally many letters at once). A scan would go a long way to helping determine this. And let us know if the letter is personal or business. A scan of a representative letter would also be useful.
Doubtful that either is a local or regional.
This starts the ball rolling. Let's see more Bob, and hear from others.
David
Login to Like
this post
09:36:11am
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
David,
Excellent!!! That was great information. Thanks for taking the time to provide that perspective.
I wanted to provide pics/scans of some of the covers, so thought the best way would be to provide direct links to Photobucket, so here they are:
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/Susannah.jpg
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/Trio.jpg
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/middlefield.jpg
I hope that these are of interest and that I can possibly learn more about them.
Bob
Oh yeah, I should have added that the letters aren't much more than common communication between friends and/or relatives. The only really interesting stuff was the prices for foodstuffs.
(Message edited by Boston_Bob on December 06, 2008)
Login to Like
this post
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Bob,
Susannah documents prepayment of 3c for the trip between somewhere in NYS and somewhere in Mass. As you Boston boys probably know, NY and Mass share an enormous border, so they could have been in stone-throwing distance. 3c is the minimal charge for the shortest distance. It's interesting that your usage also shows early use of envelopes, so it's that neat cover that's transending both the shift from collect mail to stamps AND the shift from letter sheets to envelopes. Nice.
David
Login to Like
this post
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Ditto on the trio, except one of the three also has the originating Post Office cancel
Login to Like
this post
05:27:55pm
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
Thanks again David.
Though it's somewhat off topic, I thought you might be interested in another "stampless" envelope that I have, although this one is stampless because it was never mailed. :-)
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/RisingRidge/kresge.jpg
Perhaps a collector of advertising covers might find this interesting, eh?
Regards,
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: What does the term - franked - mean?
bob, that IS a fabulous advertising cover; it's not off topic, just shifting the focus some. It's a great design. thanks for sharing. David
Login to Like
this post