Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Jeff
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so do I WE AS STAMP COLLECTORS SHOULD TRY TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT SELLING FAKES TO A BEGINNER COLLECTOR ITS A RIP OUT AND EVEN TO US COLLECTORS ITS ALSO A RIP OFF
i am sorry that I said this and it was not directed at any one I misunderstood the meaning and way collectors like to have them now that i know why I AM SO VERY VERY SORRY IF THIS OFENED ANY ONE
(Message edited by maui_skies on May 25, 2011)
(Message edited by maui_skies on May 25, 2011)
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Dear Guys,
If a seller tries to pass off a reproduction as a real item, then sure, you have a valid argument. I don't think that that is the case, however. I believe that collecting reproductions is fine if that is one's desire- I personally have some in my own collection, and even have a section of actual fakes that were attempted to be sold as "real" but they are phoney's. I even have a prized item of a crudely drawn lithographed item with spelling mistakes! I just love that.
There are cases of fakes being sold as fakes, which can begin to command some high prices as fakes- also a collectible area.
What it comes down to is the need for the collector to be alert, knowledgeable and cautious. Assume that there are sharks out there, that we as collectors are goldfish, and that we need to be responsible for what we elect to do.
Let me add that this issue is a non-issue for our SOR family in our in-house auctions. You are protected from excesses by the vigilance of the President, webmaster ,auctioneer and Volunteer Committee members.
Dan C.
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Why prohibit anything. As long as it is properly identified anything should be allowed to be sold. If you start to eliminate things, why not do all of the things that are a rip-off?
What about CTO or St Vincent Grenadines and the little islands of the Grenadines or anything that offends me or you. U.S. first day covers from national cover dealers should be right at the top of the list. I just was talking with a collector friend of mine who I did not realize collected U.S first day covers. He stated he has everyone for the last 50 years in special books on special sheets that tell in detail the story of the stamp and lucky him, the last thirty years are personalized with his name for no extra charge. The value of those on the resale market will be 5 - 10 cents tops. I recently bought as a closeout at n auction a full table of those in books for $40. I pulled out a dozen or so that might be of interst to my clients and donated the rest to a charity stamp auction where they might bring $10 per book. Was my friend ripped off? No, he is happy with what he got and I will nver tell him any different. If he had asked me first I would have explained but why spoil his fun now?
I would never prohibit the sale of anything that is properly identified.
Jack Leiby
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Just because you don't buy them does not mean there isn't a market for them. That would be like me stating that we shouldn’t sell anything over $20 because I can’t afford it or me saying that postcards shouldn’t be listed because there is no stamps on them.
I'm not apposed to seeing someone selling a replica of a high value or rare stamp as long as they state that it is a fake or replica in the description.
I have seen some very well done replicas by a certain seller on eBay that I’ve purchased for the sheer use of mounting in a picture frame with some sort of description. I’ve got some pretty cool looking wall displays of US # 1&2, a Penny Black, the Graf Zeppelins and an Inverted Jenny.
If the replicas being sold are of common stamps, then I can see grounds for complaints, and let’s be blunt, anyone making replicas of common stamps is wasting their time as well. If someone is not being upfront, by not stating that it’s a replica in the description, then there should be grounds to deal with them. Also, if you feel that someone is not being upfront, or being dishonest with a listed item, notify the people who run the auction (Tim) right away so that they can assess the situation as well. They are very good at what they do.
The bottom line though is, we don’t just sell stamps in the auction. I’ve seen a lot of stamp related things listed so if we as a group start banning replicas, then we as a group are starting to open the grounds to start banning those other things as well. I think that goes against what Stamporama as a group is about.
Pat
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you that think fakes are ok then you think ripping off people if ok also well I DON,T LIKE RIP OFFERS
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Personally, I think there are some philatelic guidelines (maybe APS inspired?) about selling reproductions aside from stating that the stamps are reproductions: Said reproductions should have the word reproduction clearly printed on the back of the stamp or clearly printed there with indelible ink.
Just my two cents...
Bruce
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12:20:10pm
According to the May 23rd issue of Linn's the auction house Schulyer-Rumsey auctioned off a set of Sperati reproductions of Uraguays classic 1858-1852 Sun Issues marked as forgeries for $1,955 not including the buyer's premium.
There is nothing wrong with selling fakes/forgeries/counterfeits/replicas as long as they are identified as such. Many are used by collectors as reference to know if a stamp is genuine of not.
Bob
(Message edited by parkinlot on May 24, 2011)
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To Roxie:
I’m not sure who you were directing your reply to so I am stuck assuming that it was to me.
I’m not sure where you think a rip off is occurring? Currently, I see two auction lots that are clearly listed as “facsimile†in their descriptions. The seller is stating that this is not a real stamp therefore he isn’t being deceitful or even trying to rip anyone off. If you are seeing another lot that is “ripping people offâ€, please point it out so we can better discuss it.
I also don’t like being ripped off. I don’t think it OK, and I find it distasteful. I and quite a few other SOR members were the victims of falsely advertised auction lots in the last few months so believe me, most of the experienced buyers as well as the experienced sellers here take great care and pride in what is listed online. The people who run the site also try to be diligent about those sorts of things as well, but they are human and something might slip through the cracks. So once again, that brings me back to, if you see something fishy, by all means, point it out so it can be properly discussed and dealt with. But you also need to understand that fake, replicas or facsimile stamps, when they are advertised as such, are not rip offs, nor is it cool to accuse the seller of ripping people off.
Also, netiquette states that typing in all caps indicates someone is shouting or being angry. Seeing that you are mixing your cases, you may want to stick to all lower case so that people don’t assume that you are shouting or being angry. I’m not sure why you would be either shouting or angry in this discussion as we are simply “just talking†about the topic.
To Bruce:
I know on eBay that you must have them marked on the back. I’m not sure about whether our auction rules state that or not. It is certainly something that may need to be looked at as our favorite little site evolves.
To the Moderators:
Maybe this thread should be moved to the Auction Discussion topic so that it is not being email blasted to all the members. Just a thought.
Pat
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APS does have guidelines for selling fakes: they are allowed, if the seller follows the rules found in the APS Code of ethics, which follows:
http://www.stamps.org/ebay/ebay_code.htm
the crux of the limitation is:
1) their sale does not violate applicable laws or copyrights,
2) the item is clearly and indelibly marked as a forgery, fake, facsimile or reproduction on the front or back, and
3) the seller's listing clearly states that the item is a forgery, fake, reproduction, or facsimile and includes an image of the marking.
in my view, section 2 is most essential, because that marking follows the fake whereever it goes, and doesn't appear only on a transient listing.
David
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The key words of the original post were
modern reproductions
Sperati forgeries can sell for more than the actual stamp.
Different ball game.
I am talking about recent junk.
Jeff
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And who in their right mind would sell a Sperati and mark it REPRODUCTION just to sell it on an online auction?
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ASP has a rule that any faults or other things that take away from a stamp makes its value be zero, and can not be sold or offered to be sold. So much for ethics.
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Creativeimages - would you please provide a reference for that statement. Jeff
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01:24:12pm
Postalhysteria,
Sorry, I was responding to Maui_skies who took the conversation to all fakes. While I agree that they are a nuisance and can waste your time looking through listings, I still don't think they should be restricted. I'm pretty sure we don't get many of these in our SOR Auctions.
Creativeimages,
That would mean that the Inverted Jenny that was sucked up into a vacuum cleaner is worthless. It sold at auction for 39,000.
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Here is an interesting reproduction of a 1950s article on the Sperati forgeries (The following article by Dudley Davis was first published in “The Australian Stamp Monthlyâ€, June 1, 1954) and various arguments about indelibly marking as forgeries, burning them, perforating them, etc.
http://www.philatelicdatabase.com/forgeries/sperati-stamp-forger-1954/
Bruce
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Here is the link to the code of conduct:
http://www.stamps.org/Almanac/alm_CodeofEthics.htm
As a member of the American Philatelic Society:
I agree to support and be governed by the Constitution and Bylaws of the APS and such amendments, resolutions, and policies as may be established.
I agree to abide by all federal, state, and local laws relating to philatelic matters.
I agree to conduct myself so as to bring no reproach or discredit to the APS, or to impair the prestige of membership therein, or to philately.
I agree neither to buy nor sell philatelic items of which the ownership is questionable, and to report promptly to the proper law enforcement agencies information on suspected stolen material.
I agree to correct promptly any error I may make in any transaction.
I agree to assist in the prosecution of violations, of which I have knowledge, of laws pertaining to philatelic matters, and to report promptly to the proper law enforcement agencies any such violations.
I agree not knowingly to sell, trade, produce, or advertise repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items unless that condition is clearly stated. ***** I further agree not to sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material in any form, in violation of any law ***** .
I agree to fulfill all contracts made by me, either orally or written, to make prompt payments upon delivery, and to return promptly any item that is not satisfactory.
When exhibiting, I agree to display only material from my own collection or else to state clearly the contrary intent.
I agree that substitution of stamps or covers, in circuits, approval selections, auction lots, etc. is dishonest and is cause for expulsion.
I agree to bring known examples of irresponsible or unethical tactics to the attention of the societies in which I hold membership and which embrace this code.
I agree to conduct myself in accordance with accepted standards of morality and courtesy in philatelic activities not specifically cited in the code.
Requests for extension of time to return purchased material while awaiting expert opinion is not an acceptable reason to hold up payment for same. Prompt refund shall be from the seller should the material submitted for opinion be deemed other than as offered or described by the seller. Unless otherwise previously agreed, the seller shall also bear reasonable costs for obtaining the opinion if material is other than as offered or described. The buyer shall inform the seller immediately after receipt of any expert opinion. Requests for extension of time must be in writing.
I agree to read, understand, and be bound by the "terms of sale" conditions before submitting an auction bid or placing a philatelic order.
If I should be found guilty of unethical or unlawful conduct, the record thereof may be disclosed to other philatelic societies of which I am a member.
I agree that any dispute concerning philatelic transactions in which I am involved may be settled by arbitration mutually agreed upon by the parties involved.
I agree not to knowingly participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any philatelic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition or investment potential.
I agree that no dealer or auctioneer knowingly shall represent in any way, including, but not limited to, a prices realized report that a bona fide sale of a philatelic item at a given price has occurred when, in fact, no change of ownership did occur.
Every member is bound to adhere to the Code of Ethics. The Code is recognized and highly respected in the organized philatelic community.
When listing an item on eBay, with such detail that the unseen committee of ethics said that my listing was reperffed, even enough I made no claims, pro or con. My listing was removed from eBay.
I put up such a stink, that I was able to talk by e-mail to one of the ethic members for ebay that removed my listing; he said that he was a officer with APS, and he about six other people, all members of APS scan all stamp listings for violations of the codesof ethics. I had no input the the removal of my listing, and no refund of my eBay listing fees.
Basiclly, major faults, forgeries, space filers and un-discribed faults make the stamp not just un-salaable, but un-listable, can not be displayed.
In do not know how many of the sellers of get by with thier listings! I feel the the ethics committee sellectively enforce the rules.
CreativeImages
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03:14:27pm
CreativeImages
It's pretty simple... You must DESCRIBE all faults, modifications, whether it is a forgery/counterfeit/reproduction and then there is no problem.
Number 7 states very clearly (I added UPPERCASE):
I agree not KNOWLINGLY to sell, trade, produce, or advertise repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items UNLESS THAT CONDITION IS CLEARLY STATED. I further agree not to sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material in any form, in violation of any law.
If you were notified that the stamp in question was reperfed then all you had to do was modify the descripton in the listing. We are not all experts. It is very easy to miss reperforations and stamps that were regummed. To know that the stamp has a problem and not describe that problem is a violation of the code of ethics. No where does it say that you cannot list a regummed, reperforated, damaged stamps.
Once again, there are Inverted Jenny's that have had perforations added as 19 of them had straight edges. They are still sold at auction, but are described as such.
Bob
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I will not see me apying that kinda of money for stamp that is so damaged the the code of ethics says is worth zero.
I collect things that I am proud to show to others. When I start explaining why an item is in my collect, what is it really worth?
When the public does not follow the code of ethics, then the code of ethic can not protect the pubklic.
When Wynn damage that multi-million dollar picture; he did not try to sell it, he said his error.
Wouldn't it be better to have a great copy of a little lesser value stamp as the center piece of your collect?
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CreativeImages - you wrote ASP (sic)has a rule that any faults or other things that take away from a stamp makes its value be zero, and can not be sold or offered to be sold
Where in the APS Code of Ethics which you posted does it say that?
Jeff
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03:29:45pm
Creativeimages,
That is a personal choice as to whether the buyer wants a damaged stamp. Obviously, someone was willing to pay $39,000 for a damaged Inverted Jenny (upside down airplane)that got sucked up into a vacuum cleaner. A sound copy sells for hundreds of thousands. Should that stamp have been thrown out? Space Fillers have always been a part of the hobby.
Back in the late 1800's it was very common for dealers to stick stamps onto a bulletin board using a tack. You will find many with holes in them.
I'm sure if you looked hard enough in APS Stamp Store you will find items that are not perfect but described correctly.
Bob
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I have read in to the code, with my several "conversations" with the eBay ethics person. Basically, I was told that if I suspect or are informed that a Scott number one is faulty in any way, that listing is not ethical, something that cannot be sold is not worth too much.
The stamp that I have been talking about, I bought from a dealers at an APS sanctioned show from an APS accredited dealer, and I got the opinions of several trust APS dealers at the show.
I did not notice, or realize that this was reperfed; I still disagree. But this person I "talked" from eBay said that I could not list this stamp because he questioned the stamp.
A replica of Scott number one is not real, it cannot be sold as Scott number one, whether reperfed, regummed, major faults or any other variations. It is not ethical, it is copyright infrigment, etc.
CreativeImages
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Walt,
it sounds like you are discussing a specific incident. It's not exactly clear to me what happened or who said what to whom, but there is some confusion in applying past experiences.
There are damaged stamps (you'll find lots offered in our auction; we ask that the seller identifies them properly); there are fakes (again, they should be identified as such); and there are repairs of all sorts, everything from regumming and reperfing to repaired tears and filled pin holes.
The APS code of ethics (and the SOR auction rules) all permit sale of any of these, as long as they are properly identified. So Bob's mangled C3a and my missing corner Queen Vic are all allowed both here and via any APS-sanctioned venue.
Replicas, as you say, are not authentic, and cannot be sold as originals; however, even our own USPS (or USPOD) has issued reprints.
My guess is that any reperfed US #1 will instantly be recognized as fraudulent by any but the most junior philatelist.
As to copyright infringement, that doesn't apply here at all.
Ethics requires the proper identification of what you sell; it doesn't require you sell only pristine perfectly centered copies free of wear and defect.
David T, our auctioneer
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I myself have no problem with anyone selling repros/facsimiles as long as they state what they are. that is not ripping someone off. they are
free to choose whether to buy it or not. I prefer to have a real stamp that is a spacefiller rather than have a repro/facsimile though.
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I must agree, even a damaged stamp is better than someone's idea of a reproduction, even if a true reproduction, although doesn't that infringe copywrite??? At least it does here in Oz
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All the repros I know of are done with stamps before they thought of copyrighting them.
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U.S. stamps issued before 1978 are pretty clearly in the public domain. Copyright is not an issue for them.
The USPS claims a copyright in stamps from 1978 on, though I've seen various interpretations of the legitimacy of this claim. Reproductions of newer stamps might draw some attention.
At the London 2010 Festival, J. Enschede and Royal Mail broke out the original equipment for the 1929 Postal Union Congress 1-pound stamp (the famous, large engraved stamp depicting King George V and St. George slaying the dragon). Perfed blocks of four were sold as souvenirs, and they are beautiful. Later, a few imperf blocks that had been printed at the Festival were sold, as well. I can think of no valid reason to limit traffic in one of those, and yet it is a modern reproduction, any way you slice it.
It is a slippery slope...
P.S. The stamp itself can be seen at the British Postal Museum and Archive's website, here:
http://postalheritage.org.uk/collections/archive/stamps/gbstamps/georgev/congress?slide=3
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I WANT TO SAY HOW VERY VERY SORRY ABOUT WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE FAKE STAMPS I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THEM AND I KNOW NOW WAY SOME COLLECTORS LIKE HAVING THEM BUT AGAIN I DO HOPE THAT DID NOT
HURT ANYONE BY WHAT I SAID I HOPE THAT YOU WILL ACCEPT MY SINCERE APLEGY. I MISUNDERSTOOD ABOUT FAKE BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE EVER HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT FAKE STAMPS BEING OUT THERE BECAUSE I DO NOT HAVE ANY THAT I KNOW OF IN MY COLLECTION BUT NOW THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT THE FAKE STAMPS ONE THE MOST IMPORTANT HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT THE
REAL THING OR IF ITS A FAKE AND TWO WHAT MAKES THEM WORTH MONEY AND WHY.THE REASON I TYPE IN CAP LETTERS IS BECAUSE ITS EASIER FOR ME TO SEE
(Message edited by maui_skies on May 26, 2011)
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Dear Maui_skies,
There is nothing to apologize for-you raised an interesting question and it generated a good bit of interest and discussion. From that we all learn.
You now raise another bunch of questions-good for you.
"HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT THE
REAL THING".... "AND TWO WHAT MAKES THEM WORTH MONEY AND WHY."
Your own increasing knowledge will help you to decide if there is something 'off' or not, and if it is a costly item then using the services of an expert can make the determination.
AS for what it's worth and why-that comes down to the personal desires of the collector, and goes by what the market can bear. I have happily paid as little as .10 cents for one of my items, and $25 for another of my items. Both fakes. My collection, my rules, my desires.
Keep on asking your questions-we all profit from them.
Dan C.
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Thank you for the apology, however, as earlier stated by others, your statements actually generated some interesting discussions where I got to learn some things as well.
I’m going to answer your questions based on my experience as a newbie collector.
The value of any stamp, or replica/fake/facsimile is like beauty, it’s in the eye of the beholder or the bidder/buyer. Catalog values for me are base prices for stamps. But if a stamp has meaning to me, I would value it higher than that catalog value. Basically, the value of the replica/fake/facsimile stamps is really up to you the buyer whether it’s worth the money.
I bought a very well done facsimile of the Inverted Jenny on eBay for around $9.00. Now the value for me on this was that I would never ever be able to own the real deal. I made up a really nice display paper and mounted and framed the whole deal. I was meaning to take a picture of the mounted replicas this morning before I left for work, but missed out on the opportunity. I did a rough estimate that my replica displays on the wall would be worth $246,728.00 if they were real stamps. I obviously would never want to mount and frame the real things like that so for me, they are an aesthetic piece that I felt was worth the money.
To answer your second question, from my perspective of being a new collector, the best way to know if what you are buying is real or not is to only deal with reputable dealers. The way to know that is to look at the person’s history as a dealer. On eBay, this is easy to do. If the seller has sold more than a 1000 items, and they have a 99% or better positive feedback, then chances are, they know what they are doing. On SOR, after watching the auctions for a bit, you’ll start knowing who the regular dealers are. You can even look at a member’s profile and see how many items he or she has sold. The other nice thing about SOR is, the members kind of watch out for each other. In the case that I mentioned where several of us got duped, the people who ran the site caught on to what was happening and put a stop to it before it got really out of hand.
I hope that helps.
The thing that I got out of this, and don’t get me wrong those of you who are members of the APS, but after reading all that stuff that they say you can and can’t do, it almost felt like the APS is like a labor union. It was almost scary reading some of that stuff. For my clarification, as a low budget collector, what benefits would I get of being a member?
Pat
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There is a current example on eBay that is illuminating. Just search for O70 in U.S. (That's the letter "O" for official). It is clearly marked on the stamp "FACSIMILE" at the top, but the listing does not mention that. The opening bid amount is ten to twenty times what the Facsimile is worth and only about 1/10th what the real thing would probably go for. The stamp itself is "worth" $5 to $10 since there are enough folks that want them as placeholders and that's the going rate. Even though this stamp is OK as marked, the listing is fraudulent. Notice the feedback of 99.8% with over 1000 feedback, so Pat's idea of 99% or better with 1000+ feedback is no good. These sellers KNOW to sell enough legit stuff to pad their feedback, and then sell a few bogus items. If you catch them they will act embarrassed and offer a full refund in hopes of keeping their feedback good. If they get a negative they lay low for a while. If the fish keep biting, they keep selling. I see this more in misidentified or altered stamps than true fakes. There is one seller on eBay that sells lots of 500, 599A and 634A. These are subtle type variations that many collectors have a hard time discerning. He has a 99.9% rating with over 5000 feedback. I bought a mint 634A from him (CV $350) that was clearly a 634 (CV 20 cents). He had a few listed as 634A and when I called him on it he checked all his listing and stock and, big surprise, NONE of his stamps were 634A so he issued a refund with a profuse apology. He laid low for a while and now he's selling these things again. He is a thief and if you assume that a seller with a 99.9% rating and over 5000 feedback is legit then you are at risk. (He has a "634A" and a "500" for sale right now)! The best defense is knowledge, and even though I collect mint, I bought a used 634A as a placeholder and for comparison until I get a real 599a and 634A. Once I get them I will probably still send a scan to William Weiss for his $5 identification opinion to be sure.
Lars
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You have hit the nail on the head. Anyone selling 1,000 to 5,000 items know what they are doing. They are cheats; stealing from less knowing people. It comes down to ethics; this cheat does not have any ethics.
So, when it comes to a value for these listed stamps, what is one do to? The eBay ethics police should be able to catch this person, and remove his listings, and end his eBay dealer name.
Since this will not happen, it would be nice if these sellers could be IDed, so members could avoid these sellers.
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How about a url for this stamp, Lars? I looked and there was one offered for $126 and the others were offered at more than $1,000.
DId the sale end already?
Thanks,
Bruce
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It's on eBay and has not ended yet. Just search for 634A under U.S. 1901-1940 unused. I don't know if listing a URL is kosher so I'd rather not. Don't want to violate any policies.
Lars
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I'd really like to be able to find out how many of these gazillion dollar fake listings actually sell, and who is buying them. I can't see any of those being sold.
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It's not the really big dollar listings that I see a lot of. Who is going to buy a $10,000 stamp or even a $1,000 stamp that is a type variety without a certificate? But the stuff with a CV of $250 or less is RIPE for rip offs! The most common I've seen are type and format varieties of the 3rd and 4th Bureau. If you take a dozen #599 and a dozen #634, you will likely find one or two with a little stronger lines. Those can be passed off as 599A and 634A to unsuspecting buyers. Coils 350 and 351 are very commonly faked by cutting down 334 and 335, but I have yet to see a 356 offered without a cert. Why? The CVs of 350 and 351 are in the $200 range, so a stamp with a thin, or pulled perf would go for about $50. Who's going to spend almost as much for a cert?
454 and 455 provides another example: By scraping off one line in each side of the ribbon with an exacto knife you can turn a 455 (CV $8.50 mint) into a 455 (CV $82.50 mint).
You can NOT stop these people. John Luff worte about fakes in his 1897 book on U.S. stamps! Your only defense is to educate yourself. Obviously get certs on the stuff with a high CV that may be questionable, but learn to screen out these lower dollar fakes yourself. There are lots of reference materials available. I recommend Johl's book on 19th Century through the 3rd Bureau.
If we try to name names and point out the scoundrels they will just set up shop under a new ID. They may already be preparing a new ID for just such an eventuality! Then we are just chasing after the problem. We can get ahead of the problem by learning how to spot these fakes and encouraging all fellow philatelists to participate in message boards like this to learn how to protect yourself.
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I FOUND OUT WHY SOME COLLECTORS BY FAKE STAMPS AND THE REASON IS THAT THE CAN KNOW IF ITS REAL OR FAKE.THE COLLLECTOR PAYS WHAT HE THINKS THE VALUE IS TO THEM PERSONALLY.
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you need to know more about why fakes are out there collectors buy fakes and that is because they use them to be able to know if it,s real or
not andm they bid on them and pay what it worth only to them
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I think this assumption should be reconsidered. In all my conversations with collectors, I have never heard "I want to be ripped off and buy an overvalued fake or fraud." I have heard many questions on how to authenticate any stamp being considered for purchase. When the discussion turns to a single stamp or a single series of stamps, then the discussion is teaching a point of view that should be of interest to this group. Over my many years of collecting, I have been told all kinds of advice to help value what I was looking at. Overall, I feel that the stamp community is too willing to stand on the side of the road and witness the car cash than help stop the crash.
CreativeImages
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Dan C. is a sophisticated collector; and appears to be very knowable about the stamps of his interest, and the fakes and frauds of those groups. I would love to hear about any and all of the unusual stamps in his collection; he might have enough stories for a book. These are the stories that teach me to most. And, save me money.
He goes to the general question of this forum. How is valued determined? I vote to elect Dan C. as president and leader of this thread. It be nice to have a monthly newsletter from him.
Thanks Dan.
CreativeImages
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this is to creativeimages
i do not have any any fake stamps in my collection that i know of. but from what I have
learn from those that do they bet and the stamp at they value that they feel right personally right to them you can get them for 10 to 25 cents i have heard from others
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I think that you are making my point - "that I know of." You did not plan to or try to buy any fakes. So you based your values on something like Brookman's , Scott's or some type of certifications - you did not think anything you bought was fake. If any stamp you purchased is different than what you thought, you been cheated. Who says that the new value of that stamp is 50%, 40%, 33%, 25% or 10% of what you paid.
All of the dealers and collectors that I deal with have said when they question the honesty of anyone in the stamp industry, they do not deal with them anymore! If they purchased a stamp that proves to them to be different than advertised, they try to get their money back; and, they tell everybody they can about the cheat.
One other thing about the cheat and the stamps that they are selling - if there is a cheap version of the stamp and an expensive version of the stamp, they always value the stamp as the greater valued stamp, never the lesser valued stamp.
CreativeImages
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Larsdog knows what he is talking about. His explanations are right on the money. And all the reasons are correct. There are more stamps in the several hundred dollars to high hundreds that are not easily detected; like someone recently said, they are embarrassed that they made a mistake.
Some time ago, I saw a web site that noted questionable listing and sales and the sellers ID. Other things on the site were recent stamp sales averages for higher value stamps. It seems that the site name included the name TIGER.com or TIGERsomething.com. I will check my old references for the site!
CreativeImages
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I just recieved a notice about an auction of errors, freaks and oddities.
http://www.regencystamps.com/viewuserdefinedpage.aspx?pn=AuctionInfoCOLLECTIBLES
Is this OK to do?
CreativeImages
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to creativeImages
from what I have learned and heard of about the freaks errors and oddities is that they are a geniune stamp its just that something went wrong during the printin g of the stamp. some freaks errors and oddities can be valuable
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08:36:30am
I was just reading through the latest APS American Philatelist magazine. In their classified section there is a heading for Forgeries.
Also if you go to the APS Stamp Store and search by keyword "Forgery", 22 entries are returned. The least expensive is $2.96 the most expensive is $52.40.
Bob
(Message edited by parkinlot on June 02, 2011)
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I thought that it was illegal to forge anything but in stamps I don,t really know it that stands true or not but again its up to the collector as to what they want to collect
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this is for Dani 20 I apogized because pat was offened by me saying what i did about the fake stamps AND i don,t like to offend anyone in the club or any where else back on may 26th. now I don,t know what you think about forgeries but as for me to my knowledge I do not have any in my collection but what I do know is that I hope i that i never get any.i want to say that if any words are misspelled is because its very late its 2:44 am here in calif and I am half asleep about now.
(Message edited by maui_skies on June 03, 2011)
(Message edited by maui_skies on June 03, 2011)
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If fakes are clearly sold as fakes then we should allow fakes to be sold.
If we ban fakes then it won't be long before we start going after errors, freaks and oddities.
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Apologies for restarting a mostly closed discussion... but here goes :
Number 7 states very clearly (I added UPPERCASE):
I agree not KNOWLINGLY to sell, trade, produce, or advertise repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items UNLESS THAT CONDITION IS CLEARLY STATED. I further agree sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material in any form, in violation of any law.
Firstly, the part about the condition being clearly stated applies exclusively to "repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items " only ie items which were originally sourced from valid stamp issuing entities. The "sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material" clause applies to material that was produced by entities outside the correct issuing authority.
This is my interpretation - you are entitled to yours. I will never ever agree the sale of fakes is acceptable. The vast majority of people who are defrauded are newbie collectors who then loose interest in the hobby... and then we wonder why philately is dying. I'd like to have a poll of the members of stamporama and group the collectors by age. Lets try to find out what kind of a future stamp collecting has.
By accepting fakes created by forgers, we are perpetuating a fraud - both on the issing authority as well as collectors in general.
Errors freaks and oddities - were they issued by upu recognized entities? If yes, then why would you fear that those issues could be targeted.
Fakes need to be weeded out. Period. That's my opinion.
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I'll put in my two cents worth. A couple of years ago I bought some "modern fakes" on eBay, a mini-sheet supposedly produced by a former Soviet republic (can't recall which one) and picturing six sexy Hollywood starlets. It was probably produced a criminal syndicate in eastern Europe purposely to defraud collectors. Why did I buy it? Because one of the stamps features a portrait of Jane Fonda, and it fits into my Vietnam War collection. I'm not likely to find a legitimate postage stamp featuring "Hanoi Jane"!
The bottom line of this discussion, for me, is that while selling fake/bogus/forged stamps as real stamps isn't a nice thing to do, and we can have all sorts of rules regarding it and even outlawing it, we'd have more success legislating against the wind. If a collector doesn't arm himself with knowledge about his or her collecting areas, there's really nothing we can do about it.
Bob
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Well.. so that means if we cannot stop something that is wrong, we ignore it. Then lets not pass any laws against illegal immigration and lets legalise meth and cocaine while we are at it.
Experienced collectors might have good knowledge and will be able to avoid the pitfalls of fake issues. The same can't be expected from newcomers.
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01:20:05am
I agree with Bob. There have been a number of "illegal" Princess Diana s/s issued under various country names - while most are legit there are a handful that aren't. Would I or have I bought them? Yes. Why? Because they are beautiful and a part of a wonderful pictorial to Princess Diana. But, I am well-versed on the legit & illegal issues. I think the best thing for anyone is to be informed. If I were ever to sell any of them, they would be clearly identified as issues not sanctioned by the country to which they are attributed. I would never sell them without mentioning that.
Kelly
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Omission is still a lie or buying a cheap deal down the pub(knowing it is probably stolen), so we then become an accomplice to theft, ignoring a fake is as bad as selling it yourself, it makes no difference if it is listed as a fake, it is still illegal to reproduce something without permission, although many Cinderella stamps do not fall into this category and there is a difference between Cinderella's and fakes
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Silvermirror said, "Well.. so that means if we cannot stop something that is wrong, we ignore it. Then lets not pass any laws against illegal immigration and lets legalise meth and cocaine while we are at it."
I didn't say that we ("we" being civilized society in general) shouldn't have rules. I said that in this case they just wouldn't be very effective. Or, perhaps, they would be just as effective as laws against pot use are! There really are some things that just can't be legislated against, at least not productively. Education is and always has been the best weapon we have against Darth Vader and his friends. I first learned about modern bogus stamps in the rec. collecting.stamps.discuss newsgroup at least a decade ago. Other collectors educated me! And I've been wary enough since then to at least check catalogues when I'm interested in buying modern material (which isn't very often).
Bob
P.S. Legalized meth and cocaine might well be a much smaller problem if they are now, i.e. illegal.
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01:55:17am
Silvermirror -
I think we're all in agreement that it is wrong to sell anything that is not genuine or authorised by the postal service of the proposed country without clearly mentioning it as that. If someone sells a reproduction, replica, forgery, etc without clearly identifying it as such, then that is wrong. Is it wrong to sell or buy it knowing it is an unauthorised issue, forgery, replica etc? I don't think so. And, in turn, as I mentioned before, when the time comes for that person to part with that particular item it should be identified as not genuine or not authorised.
It is unfortunate that there are individuals who have no ethical conscience & will sell an item as genuine to some poor, uninformed person.
Just tonight I noticed a couple of Nova Scotia 5c used issues (identified as used) listed in excess of $100. Someone who does not have a catalogue to look it up might buy it. Anyone with any knowledge of Nova Scotia used cent issues knows there's no way on earth, $100 is justifiable for a single used 5c issue. Where the seller came up with that number is beyond me.
So again, for both beginners, intermediates & advanced collectors, there is only one way to approach any stamp purchase - learn as much as you can about that issue or lot on sale before clicking the bid or bin button. Ask questions - ask fellow SOR members or other collectors, consult the catalogues, look it up on the internet, ask the seller questions - don't settle on a purchase until you feel confident that what you are buying is right. If your gut tells you something ain't kosher, then step back & think about it.
If it's an unauthorised issue (you can find out by simple research online), then you can decide if you still want it & why - such as I mentioned above on the Princess Diana issues.
It comes down to two things - the seller's ethics & integrity - and - an informed customer.
Kelly
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I bought a collection on eBay based primarily on the appearance of a Providence Postmaster's Provisional in the scans. When the collection arrived, I sent the stamp to APS for certification. It was identified as counterfeit. In support of APS effort to remove such material from the market, I donated the item to their reference collection.
The lesson is that the reason so many collector's get taken by eBay sellers is desire for a bargain. If I buy a stamp from dealer at a show or a store I can examine it. When one buys a collection the price of single stamp is calculated as the total price divided by the number of stamps. Hence my actual loss was about 10 cents. In the same purchase I found an inverted ship (Scott US 295) that did not show up on any of the scans. The invert was an obvious fake which may or may not have been detectable via a scan. I donated that one to APS, as well.
If the seller was trying to rip the buyer off, he would have featured the invert prominently in the pictorial display with the apparent eBay disclaimer that the picture accurately describes the item. The buyer should always beware that there are fakes on the market.
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Larry is correct that "omission" is as much as sin as concealment or lying, assuming the seller knows what s/he is selling.
Kelly's comments are the key of the matter: our own knowledge, which we can control; and the integrity of others, which we cannot, although we can learn from their deceit or uninformed practices (that is, when we see sellers offering bad stuff, we are forewarned and ought not make the same mistakes).
I applaud Les for offering his counterfeits to APS to both further inform the market and keep forgeries out of the marketplace, although I have no objection to selling fakes as fakes. I offer them myslef, ID'd as such, and I often add the word "fake" to the reverse. Others may wish to build their own collections of resource material, so I consider fakes, dunes, and incorrectly franked covers all to be legitimate collectibles, each with their own place (and I hope that no one correctly IDs the latter so that I might get them on the cheap).
I do not think we are in complete agreement here, though, because some opinions are more absolute than others, but I think all the positions stated have been well reasoned and stated and therefore worth our attention.
David
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11:16:58am
I also agree, anyone who's omits information or lies about a stamp is immoral and deserves to be removed from whatever site they are on.
I spoke to Pat awhile ago and he told me about the seller on eBay who sells reproductions. I, too, bought reproductions of stamps that I will never be able to afford in this lifetime and I am very happy with them. They are marked as reproductions on the back and I see nothing wrong with people buying and selling stamps in this manner. I know they are reproduced but now I can enjoy the beauty of the stamps and display them without spending money I don't have to get the real thing.
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In my opinion: selling a fake which you add as a fake is not a rip off, because the buyer knows he´s buying a fake stamp/reproduction. But selling stamp-like cinderella from Russian regions as if they were stamps, is faking people. Or selling home made stamp like cinderella from Tchad as stamps is a rip off. Because you tell potential buyers that this is a stamp from Uhauhaland or something whilst it isn´t. A friend of mine who collects covers bought on ebay a Pope John Paul "stamp" from Tchad, put it on cover and sent it to the philatelic bureau in Tchad for cancellation. They threatened him with law suits if he didn´t tell who sold it to him. And of course they didn´t cancel and return.
Selling fakes like that is ALWAYS a rip off UNLESS THE SELLER TELLS IT´S NOT A REAL STAMP!!
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David,
Thanks for the applause!
Pat: To comment on your "Why belong to APS?" question. They do have a course called "CSI Philately 2011, Uncovering the less than Obvious" taught by Mercer Bristow, the head of Expertizing. The course is open to all but if you are a member you get a substantial discount on the cost.
You also can use their library to check out or get copies of reference material, and they have reference publications for purchase. They will even do Quick ID on scans. It is one way to get a quick check on a suspicious item on an auction site. These services are available to everyone but members are able to get discount prices. If you are a member, you can use their online store to purchase items from other members, and they will expertize an stamp purchased from them for the member fee. For example, at least two items that I ordered were expertized as being incorrectly described resulting in a full refund including the fee. Their store is the safest way to buy expensive stamps.
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Another topic "re: prohibit selling modern fakes" are the large number of outright bogus fabrications that are printed by scrupulous manufacturers for many countries. We are not talking about reproductions of stamps that actually exist. We are also not talking about "stamps" for non existing countries such as Maluku Selatan or "State of Oman" (as opposed to the Sultanate of Oman). We are talking about bogus issues that appear to be legitimate based the name of the country, the currency denomination etc., but have never been authorized by the proper postal authorities.
One classic example of these types of modern fakes, familiar to most collectors, is the large set of Audobon birds from Haiti. Scott and other catalogs tend to put a warning in the catalog that bogus, unauthorized stamps exist. See, for instance, Haiti note after Scott # 691, Rwanda, after Scott #1394, Malawi, after #730 ... However, recently Scott has not kept up with identifying all of these bogus issues, in part becasue the postal authorities of some of the affected countries are so slow in reporting their legitimate issues. I have seen recent bogus "stamps," mostly souvenir sheets, from Tchad, Djibouti, Cote d'Ivoire, Republic Congo, Mali, Rwanda, Malawi, Centrafricaine, Somalia, Eritrea ...
Bogus:
Unfortunately, the UPU's website also does not keep up with listing all legitimate issues.
http://www.wnsstamps.ch/en/
Buyer beware.
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10:13:45am
I sincerely wish that listings of modern reproductions would be prohibited. This junk is a real pest on eBay. If someone needs to sell this type of material to make a buck...
Jeff
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10:22:44am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
so do I WE AS STAMP COLLECTORS SHOULD TRY TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT SELLING FAKES TO A BEGINNER COLLECTOR ITS A RIP OUT AND EVEN TO US COLLECTORS ITS ALSO A RIP OFF
i am sorry that I said this and it was not directed at any one I misunderstood the meaning and way collectors like to have them now that i know why I AM SO VERY VERY SORRY IF THIS OFENED ANY ONE
(Message edited by maui_skies on May 25, 2011)
(Message edited by maui_skies on May 25, 2011)
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Dear Guys,
If a seller tries to pass off a reproduction as a real item, then sure, you have a valid argument. I don't think that that is the case, however. I believe that collecting reproductions is fine if that is one's desire- I personally have some in my own collection, and even have a section of actual fakes that were attempted to be sold as "real" but they are phoney's. I even have a prized item of a crudely drawn lithographed item with spelling mistakes! I just love that.
There are cases of fakes being sold as fakes, which can begin to command some high prices as fakes- also a collectible area.
What it comes down to is the need for the collector to be alert, knowledgeable and cautious. Assume that there are sharks out there, that we as collectors are goldfish, and that we need to be responsible for what we elect to do.
Let me add that this issue is a non-issue for our SOR family in our in-house auctions. You are protected from excesses by the vigilance of the President, webmaster ,auctioneer and Volunteer Committee members.
Dan C.
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10:53:54am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Why prohibit anything. As long as it is properly identified anything should be allowed to be sold. If you start to eliminate things, why not do all of the things that are a rip-off?
What about CTO or St Vincent Grenadines and the little islands of the Grenadines or anything that offends me or you. U.S. first day covers from national cover dealers should be right at the top of the list. I just was talking with a collector friend of mine who I did not realize collected U.S first day covers. He stated he has everyone for the last 50 years in special books on special sheets that tell in detail the story of the stamp and lucky him, the last thirty years are personalized with his name for no extra charge. The value of those on the resale market will be 5 - 10 cents tops. I recently bought as a closeout at n auction a full table of those in books for $40. I pulled out a dozen or so that might be of interst to my clients and donated the rest to a charity stamp auction where they might bring $10 per book. Was my friend ripped off? No, he is happy with what he got and I will nver tell him any different. If he had asked me first I would have explained but why spoil his fun now?
I would never prohibit the sale of anything that is properly identified.
Jack Leiby
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Just because you don't buy them does not mean there isn't a market for them. That would be like me stating that we shouldn’t sell anything over $20 because I can’t afford it or me saying that postcards shouldn’t be listed because there is no stamps on them.
I'm not apposed to seeing someone selling a replica of a high value or rare stamp as long as they state that it is a fake or replica in the description.
I have seen some very well done replicas by a certain seller on eBay that I’ve purchased for the sheer use of mounting in a picture frame with some sort of description. I’ve got some pretty cool looking wall displays of US # 1&2, a Penny Black, the Graf Zeppelins and an Inverted Jenny.
If the replicas being sold are of common stamps, then I can see grounds for complaints, and let’s be blunt, anyone making replicas of common stamps is wasting their time as well. If someone is not being upfront, by not stating that it’s a replica in the description, then there should be grounds to deal with them. Also, if you feel that someone is not being upfront, or being dishonest with a listed item, notify the people who run the auction (Tim) right away so that they can assess the situation as well. They are very good at what they do.
The bottom line though is, we don’t just sell stamps in the auction. I’ve seen a lot of stamp related things listed so if we as a group start banning replicas, then we as a group are starting to open the grounds to start banning those other things as well. I think that goes against what Stamporama as a group is about.
Pat
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11:16:39am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
you that think fakes are ok then you think ripping off people if ok also well I DON,T LIKE RIP OFFERS
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12:10:57pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Personally, I think there are some philatelic guidelines (maybe APS inspired?) about selling reproductions aside from stating that the stamps are reproductions: Said reproductions should have the word reproduction clearly printed on the back of the stamp or clearly printed there with indelible ink.
Just my two cents...
Bruce
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
24 May 2011
12:20:10pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
According to the May 23rd issue of Linn's the auction house Schulyer-Rumsey auctioned off a set of Sperati reproductions of Uraguays classic 1858-1852 Sun Issues marked as forgeries for $1,955 not including the buyer's premium.
There is nothing wrong with selling fakes/forgeries/counterfeits/replicas as long as they are identified as such. Many are used by collectors as reference to know if a stamp is genuine of not.
Bob
(Message edited by parkinlot on May 24, 2011)
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
To Roxie:
I’m not sure who you were directing your reply to so I am stuck assuming that it was to me.
I’m not sure where you think a rip off is occurring? Currently, I see two auction lots that are clearly listed as “facsimile†in their descriptions. The seller is stating that this is not a real stamp therefore he isn’t being deceitful or even trying to rip anyone off. If you are seeing another lot that is “ripping people offâ€, please point it out so we can better discuss it.
I also don’t like being ripped off. I don’t think it OK, and I find it distasteful. I and quite a few other SOR members were the victims of falsely advertised auction lots in the last few months so believe me, most of the experienced buyers as well as the experienced sellers here take great care and pride in what is listed online. The people who run the site also try to be diligent about those sorts of things as well, but they are human and something might slip through the cracks. So once again, that brings me back to, if you see something fishy, by all means, point it out so it can be properly discussed and dealt with. But you also need to understand that fake, replicas or facsimile stamps, when they are advertised as such, are not rip offs, nor is it cool to accuse the seller of ripping people off.
Also, netiquette states that typing in all caps indicates someone is shouting or being angry. Seeing that you are mixing your cases, you may want to stick to all lower case so that people don’t assume that you are shouting or being angry. I’m not sure why you would be either shouting or angry in this discussion as we are simply “just talking†about the topic.
To Bruce:
I know on eBay that you must have them marked on the back. I’m not sure about whether our auction rules state that or not. It is certainly something that may need to be looked at as our favorite little site evolves.
To the Moderators:
Maybe this thread should be moved to the Auction Discussion topic so that it is not being email blasted to all the members. Just a thought.
Pat
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
APS does have guidelines for selling fakes: they are allowed, if the seller follows the rules found in the APS Code of ethics, which follows:
http://www.stamps.org/ebay/ebay_code.htm
the crux of the limitation is:
1) their sale does not violate applicable laws or copyrights,
2) the item is clearly and indelibly marked as a forgery, fake, facsimile or reproduction on the front or back, and
3) the seller's listing clearly states that the item is a forgery, fake, reproduction, or facsimile and includes an image of the marking.
in my view, section 2 is most essential, because that marking follows the fake whereever it goes, and doesn't appear only on a transient listing.
David
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12:39:05pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
The key words of the original post were
modern reproductions
Sperati forgeries can sell for more than the actual stamp.
Different ball game.
I am talking about recent junk.
Jeff
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12:40:20pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
And who in their right mind would sell a Sperati and mark it REPRODUCTION just to sell it on an online auction?
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01:00:20pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
ASP has a rule that any faults or other things that take away from a stamp makes its value be zero, and can not be sold or offered to be sold. So much for ethics.
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01:01:57pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Creativeimages - would you please provide a reference for that statement. Jeff
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
24 May 2011
01:24:12pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Postalhysteria,
Sorry, I was responding to Maui_skies who took the conversation to all fakes. While I agree that they are a nuisance and can waste your time looking through listings, I still don't think they should be restricted. I'm pretty sure we don't get many of these in our SOR Auctions.
Creativeimages,
That would mean that the Inverted Jenny that was sucked up into a vacuum cleaner is worthless. It sold at auction for 39,000.
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02:10:54pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Here is an interesting reproduction of a 1950s article on the Sperati forgeries (The following article by Dudley Davis was first published in “The Australian Stamp Monthlyâ€, June 1, 1954) and various arguments about indelibly marking as forgeries, burning them, perforating them, etc.
http://www.philatelicdatabase.com/forgeries/sperati-stamp-forger-1954/
Bruce
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02:48:34pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Here is the link to the code of conduct:
http://www.stamps.org/Almanac/alm_CodeofEthics.htm
As a member of the American Philatelic Society:
I agree to support and be governed by the Constitution and Bylaws of the APS and such amendments, resolutions, and policies as may be established.
I agree to abide by all federal, state, and local laws relating to philatelic matters.
I agree to conduct myself so as to bring no reproach or discredit to the APS, or to impair the prestige of membership therein, or to philately.
I agree neither to buy nor sell philatelic items of which the ownership is questionable, and to report promptly to the proper law enforcement agencies information on suspected stolen material.
I agree to correct promptly any error I may make in any transaction.
I agree to assist in the prosecution of violations, of which I have knowledge, of laws pertaining to philatelic matters, and to report promptly to the proper law enforcement agencies any such violations.
I agree not knowingly to sell, trade, produce, or advertise repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items unless that condition is clearly stated. ***** I further agree not to sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material in any form, in violation of any law ***** .
I agree to fulfill all contracts made by me, either orally or written, to make prompt payments upon delivery, and to return promptly any item that is not satisfactory.
When exhibiting, I agree to display only material from my own collection or else to state clearly the contrary intent.
I agree that substitution of stamps or covers, in circuits, approval selections, auction lots, etc. is dishonest and is cause for expulsion.
I agree to bring known examples of irresponsible or unethical tactics to the attention of the societies in which I hold membership and which embrace this code.
I agree to conduct myself in accordance with accepted standards of morality and courtesy in philatelic activities not specifically cited in the code.
Requests for extension of time to return purchased material while awaiting expert opinion is not an acceptable reason to hold up payment for same. Prompt refund shall be from the seller should the material submitted for opinion be deemed other than as offered or described by the seller. Unless otherwise previously agreed, the seller shall also bear reasonable costs for obtaining the opinion if material is other than as offered or described. The buyer shall inform the seller immediately after receipt of any expert opinion. Requests for extension of time must be in writing.
I agree to read, understand, and be bound by the "terms of sale" conditions before submitting an auction bid or placing a philatelic order.
If I should be found guilty of unethical or unlawful conduct, the record thereof may be disclosed to other philatelic societies of which I am a member.
I agree that any dispute concerning philatelic transactions in which I am involved may be settled by arbitration mutually agreed upon by the parties involved.
I agree not to knowingly participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any philatelic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition or investment potential.
I agree that no dealer or auctioneer knowingly shall represent in any way, including, but not limited to, a prices realized report that a bona fide sale of a philatelic item at a given price has occurred when, in fact, no change of ownership did occur.
Every member is bound to adhere to the Code of Ethics. The Code is recognized and highly respected in the organized philatelic community.
When listing an item on eBay, with such detail that the unseen committee of ethics said that my listing was reperffed, even enough I made no claims, pro or con. My listing was removed from eBay.
I put up such a stink, that I was able to talk by e-mail to one of the ethic members for ebay that removed my listing; he said that he was a officer with APS, and he about six other people, all members of APS scan all stamp listings for violations of the codesof ethics. I had no input the the removal of my listing, and no refund of my eBay listing fees.
Basiclly, major faults, forgeries, space filers and un-discribed faults make the stamp not just un-salaable, but un-listable, can not be displayed.
In do not know how many of the sellers of get by with thier listings! I feel the the ethics committee sellectively enforce the rules.
CreativeImages
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
24 May 2011
03:14:27pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
CreativeImages
It's pretty simple... You must DESCRIBE all faults, modifications, whether it is a forgery/counterfeit/reproduction and then there is no problem.
Number 7 states very clearly (I added UPPERCASE):
I agree not KNOWLINGLY to sell, trade, produce, or advertise repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items UNLESS THAT CONDITION IS CLEARLY STATED. I further agree not to sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material in any form, in violation of any law.
If you were notified that the stamp in question was reperfed then all you had to do was modify the descripton in the listing. We are not all experts. It is very easy to miss reperforations and stamps that were regummed. To know that the stamp has a problem and not describe that problem is a violation of the code of ethics. No where does it say that you cannot list a regummed, reperforated, damaged stamps.
Once again, there are Inverted Jenny's that have had perforations added as 19 of them had straight edges. They are still sold at auction, but are described as such.
Bob
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03:16:52pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I will not see me apying that kinda of money for stamp that is so damaged the the code of ethics says is worth zero.
I collect things that I am proud to show to others. When I start explaining why an item is in my collect, what is it really worth?
When the public does not follow the code of ethics, then the code of ethic can not protect the pubklic.
When Wynn damage that multi-million dollar picture; he did not try to sell it, he said his error.
Wouldn't it be better to have a great copy of a little lesser value stamp as the center piece of your collect?
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03:16:59pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
CreativeImages - you wrote ASP (sic)has a rule that any faults or other things that take away from a stamp makes its value be zero, and can not be sold or offered to be sold
Where in the APS Code of Ethics which you posted does it say that?
Jeff
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
24 May 2011
03:29:45pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Creativeimages,
That is a personal choice as to whether the buyer wants a damaged stamp. Obviously, someone was willing to pay $39,000 for a damaged Inverted Jenny (upside down airplane)that got sucked up into a vacuum cleaner. A sound copy sells for hundreds of thousands. Should that stamp have been thrown out? Space Fillers have always been a part of the hobby.
Back in the late 1800's it was very common for dealers to stick stamps onto a bulletin board using a tack. You will find many with holes in them.
I'm sure if you looked hard enough in APS Stamp Store you will find items that are not perfect but described correctly.
Bob
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03:39:04pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I have read in to the code, with my several "conversations" with the eBay ethics person. Basically, I was told that if I suspect or are informed that a Scott number one is faulty in any way, that listing is not ethical, something that cannot be sold is not worth too much.
The stamp that I have been talking about, I bought from a dealers at an APS sanctioned show from an APS accredited dealer, and I got the opinions of several trust APS dealers at the show.
I did not notice, or realize that this was reperfed; I still disagree. But this person I "talked" from eBay said that I could not list this stamp because he questioned the stamp.
A replica of Scott number one is not real, it cannot be sold as Scott number one, whether reperfed, regummed, major faults or any other variations. It is not ethical, it is copyright infrigment, etc.
CreativeImages
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Walt,
it sounds like you are discussing a specific incident. It's not exactly clear to me what happened or who said what to whom, but there is some confusion in applying past experiences.
There are damaged stamps (you'll find lots offered in our auction; we ask that the seller identifies them properly); there are fakes (again, they should be identified as such); and there are repairs of all sorts, everything from regumming and reperfing to repaired tears and filled pin holes.
The APS code of ethics (and the SOR auction rules) all permit sale of any of these, as long as they are properly identified. So Bob's mangled C3a and my missing corner Queen Vic are all allowed both here and via any APS-sanctioned venue.
Replicas, as you say, are not authentic, and cannot be sold as originals; however, even our own USPS (or USPOD) has issued reprints.
My guess is that any reperfed US #1 will instantly be recognized as fraudulent by any but the most junior philatelist.
As to copyright infringement, that doesn't apply here at all.
Ethics requires the proper identification of what you sell; it doesn't require you sell only pristine perfectly centered copies free of wear and defect.
David T, our auctioneer
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I myself have no problem with anyone selling repros/facsimiles as long as they state what they are. that is not ripping someone off. they are
free to choose whether to buy it or not. I prefer to have a real stamp that is a spacefiller rather than have a repro/facsimile though.
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I must agree, even a damaged stamp is better than someone's idea of a reproduction, even if a true reproduction, although doesn't that infringe copywrite??? At least it does here in Oz
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
U.S. stamps issued before 1978 are pretty clearly in the public domain. Copyright is not an issue for them.
The USPS claims a copyright in stamps from 1978 on, though I've seen various interpretations of the legitimacy of this claim. Reproductions of newer stamps might draw some attention.
At the London 2010 Festival, J. Enschede and Royal Mail broke out the original equipment for the 1929 Postal Union Congress 1-pound stamp (the famous, large engraved stamp depicting King George V and St. George slaying the dragon). Perfed blocks of four were sold as souvenirs, and they are beautiful. Later, a few imperf blocks that had been printed at the Festival were sold, as well. I can think of no valid reason to limit traffic in one of those, and yet it is a modern reproduction, any way you slice it.
It is a slippery slope...
P.S. The stamp itself can be seen at the British Postal Museum and Archive's website, here:
http://postalheritage.org.uk/collections/archive/stamps/gbstamps/georgev/congress?slide=3
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04:01:47am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I WANT TO SAY HOW VERY VERY SORRY ABOUT WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE FAKE STAMPS I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THEM AND I KNOW NOW WAY SOME COLLECTORS LIKE HAVING THEM BUT AGAIN I DO HOPE THAT DID NOT
HURT ANYONE BY WHAT I SAID I HOPE THAT YOU WILL ACCEPT MY SINCERE APLEGY. I MISUNDERSTOOD ABOUT FAKE BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE EVER HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT FAKE STAMPS BEING OUT THERE BECAUSE I DO NOT HAVE ANY THAT I KNOW OF IN MY COLLECTION BUT NOW THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT THE FAKE STAMPS ONE THE MOST IMPORTANT HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT THE
REAL THING OR IF ITS A FAKE AND TWO WHAT MAKES THEM WORTH MONEY AND WHY.THE REASON I TYPE IN CAP LETTERS IS BECAUSE ITS EASIER FOR ME TO SEE
(Message edited by maui_skies on May 26, 2011)
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Dear Maui_skies,
There is nothing to apologize for-you raised an interesting question and it generated a good bit of interest and discussion. From that we all learn.
You now raise another bunch of questions-good for you.
"HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT THE
REAL THING".... "AND TWO WHAT MAKES THEM WORTH MONEY AND WHY."
Your own increasing knowledge will help you to decide if there is something 'off' or not, and if it is a costly item then using the services of an expert can make the determination.
AS for what it's worth and why-that comes down to the personal desires of the collector, and goes by what the market can bear. I have happily paid as little as .10 cents for one of my items, and $25 for another of my items. Both fakes. My collection, my rules, my desires.
Keep on asking your questions-we all profit from them.
Dan C.
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Thank you for the apology, however, as earlier stated by others, your statements actually generated some interesting discussions where I got to learn some things as well.
I’m going to answer your questions based on my experience as a newbie collector.
The value of any stamp, or replica/fake/facsimile is like beauty, it’s in the eye of the beholder or the bidder/buyer. Catalog values for me are base prices for stamps. But if a stamp has meaning to me, I would value it higher than that catalog value. Basically, the value of the replica/fake/facsimile stamps is really up to you the buyer whether it’s worth the money.
I bought a very well done facsimile of the Inverted Jenny on eBay for around $9.00. Now the value for me on this was that I would never ever be able to own the real deal. I made up a really nice display paper and mounted and framed the whole deal. I was meaning to take a picture of the mounted replicas this morning before I left for work, but missed out on the opportunity. I did a rough estimate that my replica displays on the wall would be worth $246,728.00 if they were real stamps. I obviously would never want to mount and frame the real things like that so for me, they are an aesthetic piece that I felt was worth the money.
To answer your second question, from my perspective of being a new collector, the best way to know if what you are buying is real or not is to only deal with reputable dealers. The way to know that is to look at the person’s history as a dealer. On eBay, this is easy to do. If the seller has sold more than a 1000 items, and they have a 99% or better positive feedback, then chances are, they know what they are doing. On SOR, after watching the auctions for a bit, you’ll start knowing who the regular dealers are. You can even look at a member’s profile and see how many items he or she has sold. The other nice thing about SOR is, the members kind of watch out for each other. In the case that I mentioned where several of us got duped, the people who ran the site caught on to what was happening and put a stop to it before it got really out of hand.
I hope that helps.
The thing that I got out of this, and don’t get me wrong those of you who are members of the APS, but after reading all that stuff that they say you can and can’t do, it almost felt like the APS is like a labor union. It was almost scary reading some of that stuff. For my clarification, as a low budget collector, what benefits would I get of being a member?
Pat
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
There is a current example on eBay that is illuminating. Just search for O70 in U.S. (That's the letter "O" for official). It is clearly marked on the stamp "FACSIMILE" at the top, but the listing does not mention that. The opening bid amount is ten to twenty times what the Facsimile is worth and only about 1/10th what the real thing would probably go for. The stamp itself is "worth" $5 to $10 since there are enough folks that want them as placeholders and that's the going rate. Even though this stamp is OK as marked, the listing is fraudulent. Notice the feedback of 99.8% with over 1000 feedback, so Pat's idea of 99% or better with 1000+ feedback is no good. These sellers KNOW to sell enough legit stuff to pad their feedback, and then sell a few bogus items. If you catch them they will act embarrassed and offer a full refund in hopes of keeping their feedback good. If they get a negative they lay low for a while. If the fish keep biting, they keep selling. I see this more in misidentified or altered stamps than true fakes. There is one seller on eBay that sells lots of 500, 599A and 634A. These are subtle type variations that many collectors have a hard time discerning. He has a 99.9% rating with over 5000 feedback. I bought a mint 634A from him (CV $350) that was clearly a 634 (CV 20 cents). He had a few listed as 634A and when I called him on it he checked all his listing and stock and, big surprise, NONE of his stamps were 634A so he issued a refund with a profuse apology. He laid low for a while and now he's selling these things again. He is a thief and if you assume that a seller with a 99.9% rating and over 5000 feedback is legit then you are at risk. (He has a "634A" and a "500" for sale right now)! The best defense is knowledge, and even though I collect mint, I bought a used 634A as a placeholder and for comparison until I get a real 599a and 634A. Once I get them I will probably still send a scan to William Weiss for his $5 identification opinion to be sure.
Lars
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10:16:39pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
You have hit the nail on the head. Anyone selling 1,000 to 5,000 items know what they are doing. They are cheats; stealing from less knowing people. It comes down to ethics; this cheat does not have any ethics.
So, when it comes to a value for these listed stamps, what is one do to? The eBay ethics police should be able to catch this person, and remove his listings, and end his eBay dealer name.
Since this will not happen, it would be nice if these sellers could be IDed, so members could avoid these sellers.
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10:19:35pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
How about a url for this stamp, Lars? I looked and there was one offered for $126 and the others were offered at more than $1,000.
DId the sale end already?
Thanks,
Bruce
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
It's on eBay and has not ended yet. Just search for 634A under U.S. 1901-1940 unused. I don't know if listing a URL is kosher so I'd rather not. Don't want to violate any policies.
Lars
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11:33:57pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I'd really like to be able to find out how many of these gazillion dollar fake listings actually sell, and who is buying them. I can't see any of those being sold.
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
It's not the really big dollar listings that I see a lot of. Who is going to buy a $10,000 stamp or even a $1,000 stamp that is a type variety without a certificate? But the stuff with a CV of $250 or less is RIPE for rip offs! The most common I've seen are type and format varieties of the 3rd and 4th Bureau. If you take a dozen #599 and a dozen #634, you will likely find one or two with a little stronger lines. Those can be passed off as 599A and 634A to unsuspecting buyers. Coils 350 and 351 are very commonly faked by cutting down 334 and 335, but I have yet to see a 356 offered without a cert. Why? The CVs of 350 and 351 are in the $200 range, so a stamp with a thin, or pulled perf would go for about $50. Who's going to spend almost as much for a cert?
454 and 455 provides another example: By scraping off one line in each side of the ribbon with an exacto knife you can turn a 455 (CV $8.50 mint) into a 455 (CV $82.50 mint).
You can NOT stop these people. John Luff worte about fakes in his 1897 book on U.S. stamps! Your only defense is to educate yourself. Obviously get certs on the stuff with a high CV that may be questionable, but learn to screen out these lower dollar fakes yourself. There are lots of reference materials available. I recommend Johl's book on 19th Century through the 3rd Bureau.
If we try to name names and point out the scoundrels they will just set up shop under a new ID. They may already be preparing a new ID for just such an eventuality! Then we are just chasing after the problem. We can get ahead of the problem by learning how to spot these fakes and encouraging all fellow philatelists to participate in message boards like this to learn how to protect yourself.
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06:58:46am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I FOUND OUT WHY SOME COLLECTORS BY FAKE STAMPS AND THE REASON IS THAT THE CAN KNOW IF ITS REAL OR FAKE.THE COLLLECTOR PAYS WHAT HE THINKS THE VALUE IS TO THEM PERSONALLY.
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07:10:10am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
you need to know more about why fakes are out there collectors buy fakes and that is because they use them to be able to know if it,s real or
not andm they bid on them and pay what it worth only to them
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07:43:24am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I think this assumption should be reconsidered. In all my conversations with collectors, I have never heard "I want to be ripped off and buy an overvalued fake or fraud." I have heard many questions on how to authenticate any stamp being considered for purchase. When the discussion turns to a single stamp or a single series of stamps, then the discussion is teaching a point of view that should be of interest to this group. Over my many years of collecting, I have been told all kinds of advice to help value what I was looking at. Overall, I feel that the stamp community is too willing to stand on the side of the road and witness the car cash than help stop the crash.
CreativeImages
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07:58:36am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Dan C. is a sophisticated collector; and appears to be very knowable about the stamps of his interest, and the fakes and frauds of those groups. I would love to hear about any and all of the unusual stamps in his collection; he might have enough stories for a book. These are the stories that teach me to most. And, save me money.
He goes to the general question of this forum. How is valued determined? I vote to elect Dan C. as president and leader of this thread. It be nice to have a monthly newsletter from him.
Thanks Dan.
CreativeImages
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01:23:52pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
this is to creativeimages
i do not have any any fake stamps in my collection that i know of. but from what I have
learn from those that do they bet and the stamp at they value that they feel right personally right to them you can get them for 10 to 25 cents i have heard from others
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02:46:51pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I think that you are making my point - "that I know of." You did not plan to or try to buy any fakes. So you based your values on something like Brookman's , Scott's or some type of certifications - you did not think anything you bought was fake. If any stamp you purchased is different than what you thought, you been cheated. Who says that the new value of that stamp is 50%, 40%, 33%, 25% or 10% of what you paid.
All of the dealers and collectors that I deal with have said when they question the honesty of anyone in the stamp industry, they do not deal with them anymore! If they purchased a stamp that proves to them to be different than advertised, they try to get their money back; and, they tell everybody they can about the cheat.
One other thing about the cheat and the stamps that they are selling - if there is a cheap version of the stamp and an expensive version of the stamp, they always value the stamp as the greater valued stamp, never the lesser valued stamp.
CreativeImages
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05:36:22pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Larsdog knows what he is talking about. His explanations are right on the money. And all the reasons are correct. There are more stamps in the several hundred dollars to high hundreds that are not easily detected; like someone recently said, they are embarrassed that they made a mistake.
Some time ago, I saw a web site that noted questionable listing and sales and the sellers ID. Other things on the site were recent stamp sales averages for higher value stamps. It seems that the site name included the name TIGER.com or TIGERsomething.com. I will check my old references for the site!
CreativeImages
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05:40:57pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I just recieved a notice about an auction of errors, freaks and oddities.
http://www.regencystamps.com/viewuserdefinedpage.aspx?pn=AuctionInfoCOLLECTIBLES
Is this OK to do?
CreativeImages
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10:39:01pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
to creativeImages
from what I have learned and heard of about the freaks errors and oddities is that they are a geniune stamp its just that something went wrong during the printin g of the stamp. some freaks errors and oddities can be valuable
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
02 Jun 2011
08:36:30am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I was just reading through the latest APS American Philatelist magazine. In their classified section there is a heading for Forgeries.
Also if you go to the APS Stamp Store and search by keyword "Forgery", 22 entries are returned. The least expensive is $2.96 the most expensive is $52.40.
Bob
(Message edited by parkinlot on June 02, 2011)
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05:20:40am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I thought that it was illegal to forge anything but in stamps I don,t really know it that stands true or not but again its up to the collector as to what they want to collect
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05:30:54am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
this is for Dani 20 I apogized because pat was offened by me saying what i did about the fake stamps AND i don,t like to offend anyone in the club or any where else back on may 26th. now I don,t know what you think about forgeries but as for me to my knowledge I do not have any in my collection but what I do know is that I hope i that i never get any.i want to say that if any words are misspelled is because its very late its 2:44 am here in calif and I am half asleep about now.
(Message edited by maui_skies on June 03, 2011)
(Message edited by maui_skies on June 03, 2011)
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06:04:20am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
If fakes are clearly sold as fakes then we should allow fakes to be sold.
If we ban fakes then it won't be long before we start going after errors, freaks and oddities.
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04:50:05pm
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Apologies for restarting a mostly closed discussion... but here goes :
Number 7 states very clearly (I added UPPERCASE):
I agree not KNOWLINGLY to sell, trade, produce, or advertise repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items UNLESS THAT CONDITION IS CLEARLY STATED. I further agree sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material in any form, in violation of any law.
Firstly, the part about the condition being clearly stated applies exclusively to "repaired, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items " only ie items which were originally sourced from valid stamp issuing entities. The "sell, produce, or advertise counterfeit material" clause applies to material that was produced by entities outside the correct issuing authority.
This is my interpretation - you are entitled to yours. I will never ever agree the sale of fakes is acceptable. The vast majority of people who are defrauded are newbie collectors who then loose interest in the hobby... and then we wonder why philately is dying. I'd like to have a poll of the members of stamporama and group the collectors by age. Lets try to find out what kind of a future stamp collecting has.
By accepting fakes created by forgers, we are perpetuating a fraud - both on the issing authority as well as collectors in general.
Errors freaks and oddities - were they issued by upu recognized entities? If yes, then why would you fear that those issues could be targeted.
Fakes need to be weeded out. Period. That's my opinion.
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I'll put in my two cents worth. A couple of years ago I bought some "modern fakes" on eBay, a mini-sheet supposedly produced by a former Soviet republic (can't recall which one) and picturing six sexy Hollywood starlets. It was probably produced a criminal syndicate in eastern Europe purposely to defraud collectors. Why did I buy it? Because one of the stamps features a portrait of Jane Fonda, and it fits into my Vietnam War collection. I'm not likely to find a legitimate postage stamp featuring "Hanoi Jane"!
The bottom line of this discussion, for me, is that while selling fake/bogus/forged stamps as real stamps isn't a nice thing to do, and we can have all sorts of rules regarding it and even outlawing it, we'd have more success legislating against the wind. If a collector doesn't arm himself with knowledge about his or her collecting areas, there's really nothing we can do about it.
Bob
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01:10:20am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Well.. so that means if we cannot stop something that is wrong, we ignore it. Then lets not pass any laws against illegal immigration and lets legalise meth and cocaine while we are at it.
Experienced collectors might have good knowledge and will be able to avoid the pitfalls of fake issues. The same can't be expected from newcomers.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
30 Jun 2012
01:20:05am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I agree with Bob. There have been a number of "illegal" Princess Diana s/s issued under various country names - while most are legit there are a handful that aren't. Would I or have I bought them? Yes. Why? Because they are beautiful and a part of a wonderful pictorial to Princess Diana. But, I am well-versed on the legit & illegal issues. I think the best thing for anyone is to be informed. If I were ever to sell any of them, they would be clearly identified as issues not sanctioned by the country to which they are attributed. I would never sell them without mentioning that.
Kelly
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Omission is still a lie or buying a cheap deal down the pub(knowing it is probably stolen), so we then become an accomplice to theft, ignoring a fake is as bad as selling it yourself, it makes no difference if it is listed as a fake, it is still illegal to reproduce something without permission, although many Cinderella stamps do not fall into this category and there is a difference between Cinderella's and fakes
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Silvermirror said, "Well.. so that means if we cannot stop something that is wrong, we ignore it. Then lets not pass any laws against illegal immigration and lets legalise meth and cocaine while we are at it."
I didn't say that we ("we" being civilized society in general) shouldn't have rules. I said that in this case they just wouldn't be very effective. Or, perhaps, they would be just as effective as laws against pot use are! There really are some things that just can't be legislated against, at least not productively. Education is and always has been the best weapon we have against Darth Vader and his friends. I first learned about modern bogus stamps in the rec. collecting.stamps.discuss newsgroup at least a decade ago. Other collectors educated me! And I've been wary enough since then to at least check catalogues when I'm interested in buying modern material (which isn't very often).
Bob
P.S. Legalized meth and cocaine might well be a much smaller problem if they are now, i.e. illegal.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
30 Jun 2012
01:55:17am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Silvermirror -
I think we're all in agreement that it is wrong to sell anything that is not genuine or authorised by the postal service of the proposed country without clearly mentioning it as that. If someone sells a reproduction, replica, forgery, etc without clearly identifying it as such, then that is wrong. Is it wrong to sell or buy it knowing it is an unauthorised issue, forgery, replica etc? I don't think so. And, in turn, as I mentioned before, when the time comes for that person to part with that particular item it should be identified as not genuine or not authorised.
It is unfortunate that there are individuals who have no ethical conscience & will sell an item as genuine to some poor, uninformed person.
Just tonight I noticed a couple of Nova Scotia 5c used issues (identified as used) listed in excess of $100. Someone who does not have a catalogue to look it up might buy it. Anyone with any knowledge of Nova Scotia used cent issues knows there's no way on earth, $100 is justifiable for a single used 5c issue. Where the seller came up with that number is beyond me.
So again, for both beginners, intermediates & advanced collectors, there is only one way to approach any stamp purchase - learn as much as you can about that issue or lot on sale before clicking the bid or bin button. Ask questions - ask fellow SOR members or other collectors, consult the catalogues, look it up on the internet, ask the seller questions - don't settle on a purchase until you feel confident that what you are buying is right. If your gut tells you something ain't kosher, then step back & think about it.
If it's an unauthorised issue (you can find out by simple research online), then you can decide if you still want it & why - such as I mentioned above on the Princess Diana issues.
It comes down to two things - the seller's ethics & integrity - and - an informed customer.
Kelly
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I bought a collection on eBay based primarily on the appearance of a Providence Postmaster's Provisional in the scans. When the collection arrived, I sent the stamp to APS for certification. It was identified as counterfeit. In support of APS effort to remove such material from the market, I donated the item to their reference collection.
The lesson is that the reason so many collector's get taken by eBay sellers is desire for a bargain. If I buy a stamp from dealer at a show or a store I can examine it. When one buys a collection the price of single stamp is calculated as the total price divided by the number of stamps. Hence my actual loss was about 10 cents. In the same purchase I found an inverted ship (Scott US 295) that did not show up on any of the scans. The invert was an obvious fake which may or may not have been detectable via a scan. I donated that one to APS, as well.
If the seller was trying to rip the buyer off, he would have featured the invert prominently in the pictorial display with the apparent eBay disclaimer that the picture accurately describes the item. The buyer should always beware that there are fakes on the market.
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Larry is correct that "omission" is as much as sin as concealment or lying, assuming the seller knows what s/he is selling.
Kelly's comments are the key of the matter: our own knowledge, which we can control; and the integrity of others, which we cannot, although we can learn from their deceit or uninformed practices (that is, when we see sellers offering bad stuff, we are forewarned and ought not make the same mistakes).
I applaud Les for offering his counterfeits to APS to both further inform the market and keep forgeries out of the marketplace, although I have no objection to selling fakes as fakes. I offer them myslef, ID'd as such, and I often add the word "fake" to the reverse. Others may wish to build their own collections of resource material, so I consider fakes, dunes, and incorrectly franked covers all to be legitimate collectibles, each with their own place (and I hope that no one correctly IDs the latter so that I might get them on the cheap).
I do not think we are in complete agreement here, though, because some opinions are more absolute than others, but I think all the positions stated have been well reasoned and stated and therefore worth our attention.
David
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
30 Jun 2012
11:16:58am
re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
I also agree, anyone who's omits information or lies about a stamp is immoral and deserves to be removed from whatever site they are on.
I spoke to Pat awhile ago and he told me about the seller on eBay who sells reproductions. I, too, bought reproductions of stamps that I will never be able to afford in this lifetime and I am very happy with them. They are marked as reproductions on the back and I see nothing wrong with people buying and selling stamps in this manner. I know they are reproduced but now I can enjoy the beauty of the stamps and display them without spending money I don't have to get the real thing.
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
In my opinion: selling a fake which you add as a fake is not a rip off, because the buyer knows he´s buying a fake stamp/reproduction. But selling stamp-like cinderella from Russian regions as if they were stamps, is faking people. Or selling home made stamp like cinderella from Tchad as stamps is a rip off. Because you tell potential buyers that this is a stamp from Uhauhaland or something whilst it isn´t. A friend of mine who collects covers bought on ebay a Pope John Paul "stamp" from Tchad, put it on cover and sent it to the philatelic bureau in Tchad for cancellation. They threatened him with law suits if he didn´t tell who sold it to him. And of course they didn´t cancel and return.
Selling fakes like that is ALWAYS a rip off UNLESS THE SELLER TELLS IT´S NOT A REAL STAMP!!
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
David,
Thanks for the applause!
Pat: To comment on your "Why belong to APS?" question. They do have a course called "CSI Philately 2011, Uncovering the less than Obvious" taught by Mercer Bristow, the head of Expertizing. The course is open to all but if you are a member you get a substantial discount on the cost.
You also can use their library to check out or get copies of reference material, and they have reference publications for purchase. They will even do Quick ID on scans. It is one way to get a quick check on a suspicious item on an auction site. These services are available to everyone but members are able to get discount prices. If you are a member, you can use their online store to purchase items from other members, and they will expertize an stamp purchased from them for the member fee. For example, at least two items that I ordered were expertized as being incorrectly described resulting in a full refund including the fee. Their store is the safest way to buy expensive stamps.
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re: Modern reproductions and bogus stamp issues
Another topic "re: prohibit selling modern fakes" are the large number of outright bogus fabrications that are printed by scrupulous manufacturers for many countries. We are not talking about reproductions of stamps that actually exist. We are also not talking about "stamps" for non existing countries such as Maluku Selatan or "State of Oman" (as opposed to the Sultanate of Oman). We are talking about bogus issues that appear to be legitimate based the name of the country, the currency denomination etc., but have never been authorized by the proper postal authorities.
One classic example of these types of modern fakes, familiar to most collectors, is the large set of Audobon birds from Haiti. Scott and other catalogs tend to put a warning in the catalog that bogus, unauthorized stamps exist. See, for instance, Haiti note after Scott # 691, Rwanda, after Scott #1394, Malawi, after #730 ... However, recently Scott has not kept up with identifying all of these bogus issues, in part becasue the postal authorities of some of the affected countries are so slow in reporting their legitimate issues. I have seen recent bogus "stamps," mostly souvenir sheets, from Tchad, Djibouti, Cote d'Ivoire, Republic Congo, Mali, Rwanda, Malawi, Centrafricaine, Somalia, Eritrea ...
Bogus:
Unfortunately, the UPU's website also does not keep up with listing all legitimate issues.
http://www.wnsstamps.ch/en/
Buyer beware.
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