I'd like to invite you to view the newest FAQ Page on SOR - Descriptive Terms. The FAQ index is found by clicking on the link to the FAQ's on the home page:
http://www.stamporama.com/faq/faq-index.shtml
It is also available as a link on the auction page.
Following a debate on the Discussion Board about what, exactly, to call a mint stamp (unused, MNH, MH, MLH, post office fresh, and so on), a number of us volunteered to come up with a list of descriptive terms to describe Mint and Used stamps. We hope that visitors and users of this site will use this FAQ as a reference for discussions and when using our Auctions page to either post new items or bid on them. It's not mandatory to use these terms excusively; but, if we're all talking the same language, it will avoid confusion and disappointment in the long run.
We hope you'll take the time to visit this new addition to the site; and we welcome your comments.
This FAQ is a joint collaboartion between Tim Auld, Dan Cohen, Ralph Heymsfeld, Randy Kerr, Kenneth Perry, David Teisler and myself. Although some of them may say, "I didn't really do much," all of them offered valuable input, advice and good old fashioned legwork to bring this about so quickly.
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While some may disagree with the descriptive terms on a semantic basis, at least now everyone should be aware of "what is what" on the SOR auction site.
Thank you to all collaborators for the effort.
Bob
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Ah yes. Semantics; I had that once but the doc gave me some pills 
cleared up quite quickly.
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Nice addition to the FAQ section.Does however beg for pictures.
I dont think you could show gum or no gum,but you could picture the MNH, MH- light medium,heavy and hinge remnant. Actual stamps,or black and white photo like in Scotts and Mystic.Visual aids are always a welcomed complimentary addition to any descriptive listing,information,or story.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
TOM
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Ahhh...now that is an interesting challenge that Tom has presented. What do you think team?
Tim.
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Hi ya All,
Although not directly replying to descriptive terms when specializing and a need to give a possition on the stamp or stamps where flaws are found/known I use the Thirkle Possition finder which for those who don't know or have no knowlege of it it's a small stiff square of vclear plastic with a black grid showing letters down the left and numbers along the bottom. I aquired my copy through Vera Trinder of London which is a quality Philatelic booksupplies store.
Regards
Jack Hesketh (machinhigh)
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Hi all,
Great Sunday morning here is SW Florida.
Jack's (machinhigh) mention of the Thirkle Possition (sp?) finder sounds intriguing and was wondering if you could send me, or even post a scan of one. And maybe the address for Vera's business. That sounds like one of those handy dandy little thingamabobs that every Machin collector should have.
Have a great day out there in stampland. Keep the picture side up and the shining side down.
Mike (capestampman)
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Hi ya Mike.... been on the trail trying to locate my Thirkell Position finder ..mmm no joy as yet, you might want to make a visit here
http://www.collectorssupplyhouse.com/s_acces/g_perfgauge.htm
comes in at $CDN6.95 plus shipping. howver should you not be in the USA or Canada you'll have to contact Stanley Gibbons who make the item.
Happy Hunting
Regards
Jack
(machinhigh)
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03:03:11pm
I bought the Thirkell Position Finder back in 1987 when I first got back into stamp collecting. When I saw it in Subway's catalogue I thought that it would be a standard way to reference a position on a stamp. In all the literature I have read in the past 20+ years, I have never seen a reference to its use. It still sits in my desk draw unused, which is a shame.
Bob
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Yes Bob,
Yes you're so right so did I, I use mine to give posissional locations of printers consistant flaws on wilding and machin issues in this instance the letters 'Th' plus the grid ref: would be inserted below the SG cat. # we could talk for some time on this little tool that seems to have found it's little hidy-hole for those collectors who invested in one and go into near prminant hibernation, or is the use of a Thirkell Finder taking specialization to a higher level, some would say it is but I see it as sorting out where I'm at with Wildings.
Regards
Jack
(Machinhigh)
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Congratulation to the committee on this worthwhile FAQ. I didn't know it was possible for a committee to be so efficient! Perhaps we should let President Obama know about you....
I was, however, stricken with semantics many years ago, and I wish to urge the committee to drop the hyphens in "M-DG" (Mint Damaged Gum) and "M-NG" (Mint No Gum). I can't see any purpose for the hyphens, but if there is then "MNH" (Mint Never Hinged) should be "M-NH") and "MH" (Mint Hinged) should be "M-H".
I would never say that we shouldn't change something just because it's been around for ever, but I don't see the point in changing something for the sake of change, especially when the change seems without foundation. And I very much like "MDG," which I've never seen as initials. But hyphens? Why be out of step with the rest of the philatelic world on this?
Finally, I wonder about the time-honoured "Unused," used to describe stamps that are known to have been used but were not cancelled? I think that has its place in any list of descriptors.
Bob Ingraham
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Hello everyone,
I've read the remarks over the past few days and I appreciate the comments. Pictures would be a good idea, Tom, and I'll talk to Tim about doing that. Bob, I can tell you why the hyphens stuck... that's how I learned on my Dad's knee and visually, I've never really seen the difference from my perspective. I'll drop the hyphens in version 1.1, if that's the prevalent form. The "unused" for used, uncancelled stamps is a mind bender. I need a few minutes and a drink to get my head around that one... If you could write a descriptor and email me at busmanis(at)primus(dot)ca, I'll give it some serious consideration.
Incidentally, I know exactly what you mean by those stamps. Although ignored by some collectors, my dad (once again) encouraged me to collect those types of stamps if I couldn't find a nice SON cancel because they looked a lot better than the killer cancels that came through so much of the mail. Some of them are still floating around in my collection today.
Best regards,
Andrew
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just so we're clear. A stamp known to be used can't be unused, whereas a stamp that has no gum might have been postally used but not cancelled; might have been stuck on an envelope and never mailed; stuck to its mates through humidity or other factors; or purposely washed to eliminate the above as possible problems but, in any case, cannot be distinguished one from the other and hence the presumption of "unused."
Sven, the tipsy norseman, and when you see me be sure to say, "Hi, Finn."
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The two terms, used and unused,both denote that there is "no gum" . This is for stamps that were originaly gummed. For those that were isssued without gum, they are considered and listed as "ungummed", as issued.
There is no such thing as " mint,no gum". Without the gum,it is no longer mint. So the term "unused" comes into play.
It's a moot point,that is usually misunderstood.
For me, I consder an unused as a used without cancel, and a used as a stamp with a cancel.
Maybe ,for SOR use, it could be --
1.used-no cancel
2.canceled
1A. uncanceled-NG
2A. used-- (enter type of cancel)
3. precancel-used-NG
3A. precancel-unused-OG-PF
The precancels cannot be classified as "mint", even though they are in perfect condition(post office fresh-as issued) because they are "CANCELED" .Even in Scotts cat., they are only listed as "used".
They seldom recieve an additional cancel and when soaked off envelopes,as with other postaly used stamps, they cannot be listed as "unused" because of lack of gum,even though they are in a condition of "as issued" on the face, they are already canceled(precanceled) and should be listed as used, no gum.
So the answer to used versus unused cannot be Just the difference of with/without gum, or with/without cancel, but must include types of stamps the terms are referring too.
We can add many ,many "but if" sub titles to the FAQ section on descriptions to be used. There are no simple solutions. And terms used are dependent on the stage of the hobby the individual collector has achieved ,that will determine what "philatelic terms" should be used, could be used, or even exist.
That said, check out the new listings of terms for coil stamps, the PNC3 site,home page. Now that's confuseing even for the experts.They have their own catalog,and terminology that only a collector with the deepest passion,understanding,and consternation for perfection,can decipher.
Lets not get too carried way with our FAQ for auction listing terms.
All we need is terms the average collector can associate with, and sellers can give honest descriptions that buyers can automatically associate with.
A simple mint or used will do. If a stamp is used,uncanceled,let the buyer contact the seller for more info on the item. There is a thing called too much information.
And just how many pages of info do you expect the seller to include,for that 10 cent item. How much info does the buyer want/need.
TOM
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About those hyphens: It's not a matter of prevalence, but consistency and parallel structure. Hyphens aren't used in such common descriptors as "MNH," so I see no reason to use them in others. And the sellers will be happy -- less typing! :-)
Tom has illustrated perfectly the Alice in Wonderland aspect of philatelic description...
and I think we should take his advice to heart, particularly that advice about not getting too carried away with the FAQ.
However, the term "unused" does have a long history and is generally understood by collectors to refer to a stamp that has, for whatever reason, no adhesive and can be used for postage in the country of origin, provided that it has not been demonitized.
Tom is correct in saying that a mint stamp without gum is no longer mint, but that begs the question of how to describe those stamps that were issued without gum, such as many early stamps of Asia (and even postwar stamps), and those which have had their gum removed to prevent damage to the stamp (examples are German stamps with highly acidic gum and classic stamps with cracked gum).
There isn't a need to add a description for "Unused" to the FAQ because it's already there, in the details under M-NG.
A final note: "MLH" (Mint Light Hinged), "MHH" (Mint Heavy Hinged) and MHR (Mint Hinge Remnant) are common descriptors. I think we should add them to the list, perhaps under M-DG.
Bob Ingraham
(Message edited by Bobstamp on April 21, 2009)
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Bob,
Lately in major auctions I have seen the abbreviation NGAI. No it is not Vietnamese but stands for No Gum As Issued.
George
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MLH, MHH and MHR are there under aka's in Mint Hinged.
We almost forgot one of our modern classics when talking about cancels - the hard to find and rare "pen cancel." Actually, I'm thinking of taking all these lemons and making some lemonade - I will become the site's first pen mark cancel/obliteration collector...
Andrew
(Message edited by andrejs on April 21, 2009)
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In regards to Andrew's comments about 'pen cancels';
Fun comment gave me a smile, Andrew, but got me to thinking -
pen cancels and obliteration cancels can be quite different. I'm an avid US Revenues collector and I am always quite excited to find issues hand-canceled with a handwritten date on face as opposed to a machine-cancel. Might not be the pen MARK cancel he was referring to, but gave me pause to reflect, nonetheless.
Randy
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Well, I thought I'd about given all that I could concerning the FAQ on terms. But came across a little quote that may fit our educateing the members .
"Education isnt how much you have committed to memory,or even how much you know.
It's being able to differeniate between what you know,and what you dont."
Anatole France
TOM
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....amen to that, Tom!
Randy
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Hello everyone!
I'd like to invite you to view the newest FAQ Page on SOR - Descriptive Terms. The FAQ index is found by clicking on the link to the FAQ's on the home page:
http://www.stamporama.com/faq/faq-index.shtml
It is also available as a link on the auction page.
Following a debate on the Discussion Board about what, exactly, to call a mint stamp (unused, MNH, MH, MLH, post office fresh, and so on), a number of us volunteered to come up with a list of descriptive terms to describe Mint and Used stamps. We hope that visitors and users of this site will use this FAQ as a reference for discussions and when using our Auctions page to either post new items or bid on them. It's not mandatory to use these terms excusively; but, if we're all talking the same language, it will avoid confusion and disappointment in the long run.
We hope you'll take the time to visit this new addition to the site; and we welcome your comments.
This FAQ is a joint collaboartion between Tim Auld, Dan Cohen, Ralph Heymsfeld, Randy Kerr, Kenneth Perry, David Teisler and myself. Although some of them may say, "I didn't really do much," all of them offered valuable input, advice and good old fashioned legwork to bring this about so quickly.
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03:59:53pm
re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
While some may disagree with the descriptive terms on a semantic basis, at least now everyone should be aware of "what is what" on the SOR auction site.
Thank you to all collaborators for the effort.
Bob
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Ah yes. Semantics; I had that once but the doc gave me some pills
cleared up quite quickly.
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02:08:08am
re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Nice addition to the FAQ section.Does however beg for pictures.
I dont think you could show gum or no gum,but you could picture the MNH, MH- light medium,heavy and hinge remnant. Actual stamps,or black and white photo like in Scotts and Mystic.Visual aids are always a welcomed complimentary addition to any descriptive listing,information,or story.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
TOM
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Ahhh...now that is an interesting challenge that Tom has presented. What do you think team?
Tim.
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Hi ya All,
Although not directly replying to descriptive terms when specializing and a need to give a possition on the stamp or stamps where flaws are found/known I use the Thirkle Possition finder which for those who don't know or have no knowlege of it it's a small stiff square of vclear plastic with a black grid showing letters down the left and numbers along the bottom. I aquired my copy through Vera Trinder of London which is a quality Philatelic booksupplies store.
Regards
Jack Hesketh (machinhigh)
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Hi all,
Great Sunday morning here is SW Florida.
Jack's (machinhigh) mention of the Thirkle Possition (sp?) finder sounds intriguing and was wondering if you could send me, or even post a scan of one. And maybe the address for Vera's business. That sounds like one of those handy dandy little thingamabobs that every Machin collector should have.
Have a great day out there in stampland. Keep the picture side up and the shining side down.
Mike (capestampman)
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Hi ya Mike.... been on the trail trying to locate my Thirkell Position finder ..mmm no joy as yet, you might want to make a visit here
http://www.collectorssupplyhouse.com/s_acces/g_perfgauge.htm
comes in at $CDN6.95 plus shipping. howver should you not be in the USA or Canada you'll have to contact Stanley Gibbons who make the item.
Happy Hunting
Regards
Jack
(machinhigh)
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
19 Apr 2009
03:03:11pm
re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
I bought the Thirkell Position Finder back in 1987 when I first got back into stamp collecting. When I saw it in Subway's catalogue I thought that it would be a standard way to reference a position on a stamp. In all the literature I have read in the past 20+ years, I have never seen a reference to its use. It still sits in my desk draw unused, which is a shame.
Bob
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Yes Bob,
Yes you're so right so did I, I use mine to give posissional locations of printers consistant flaws on wilding and machin issues in this instance the letters 'Th' plus the grid ref: would be inserted below the SG cat. # we could talk for some time on this little tool that seems to have found it's little hidy-hole for those collectors who invested in one and go into near prminant hibernation, or is the use of a Thirkell Finder taking specialization to a higher level, some would say it is but I see it as sorting out where I'm at with Wildings.
Regards
Jack
(Machinhigh)
Login to Like
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Congratulation to the committee on this worthwhile FAQ. I didn't know it was possible for a committee to be so efficient! Perhaps we should let President Obama know about you....
I was, however, stricken with semantics many years ago, and I wish to urge the committee to drop the hyphens in "M-DG" (Mint Damaged Gum) and "M-NG" (Mint No Gum). I can't see any purpose for the hyphens, but if there is then "MNH" (Mint Never Hinged) should be "M-NH") and "MH" (Mint Hinged) should be "M-H".
I would never say that we shouldn't change something just because it's been around for ever, but I don't see the point in changing something for the sake of change, especially when the change seems without foundation. And I very much like "MDG," which I've never seen as initials. But hyphens? Why be out of step with the rest of the philatelic world on this?
Finally, I wonder about the time-honoured "Unused," used to describe stamps that are known to have been used but were not cancelled? I think that has its place in any list of descriptors.
Bob Ingraham
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Hello everyone,
I've read the remarks over the past few days and I appreciate the comments. Pictures would be a good idea, Tom, and I'll talk to Tim about doing that. Bob, I can tell you why the hyphens stuck... that's how I learned on my Dad's knee and visually, I've never really seen the difference from my perspective. I'll drop the hyphens in version 1.1, if that's the prevalent form. The "unused" for used, uncancelled stamps is a mind bender. I need a few minutes and a drink to get my head around that one... If you could write a descriptor and email me at busmanis(at)primus(dot)ca, I'll give it some serious consideration.
Incidentally, I know exactly what you mean by those stamps. Although ignored by some collectors, my dad (once again) encouraged me to collect those types of stamps if I couldn't find a nice SON cancel because they looked a lot better than the killer cancels that came through so much of the mail. Some of them are still floating around in my collection today.
Best regards,
Andrew
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
just so we're clear. A stamp known to be used can't be unused, whereas a stamp that has no gum might have been postally used but not cancelled; might have been stuck on an envelope and never mailed; stuck to its mates through humidity or other factors; or purposely washed to eliminate the above as possible problems but, in any case, cannot be distinguished one from the other and hence the presumption of "unused."
Sven, the tipsy norseman, and when you see me be sure to say, "Hi, Finn."
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02:43:57am
re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
The two terms, used and unused,both denote that there is "no gum" . This is for stamps that were originaly gummed. For those that were isssued without gum, they are considered and listed as "ungummed", as issued.
There is no such thing as " mint,no gum". Without the gum,it is no longer mint. So the term "unused" comes into play.
It's a moot point,that is usually misunderstood.
For me, I consder an unused as a used without cancel, and a used as a stamp with a cancel.
Maybe ,for SOR use, it could be --
1.used-no cancel
2.canceled
1A. uncanceled-NG
2A. used-- (enter type of cancel)
3. precancel-used-NG
3A. precancel-unused-OG-PF
The precancels cannot be classified as "mint", even though they are in perfect condition(post office fresh-as issued) because they are "CANCELED" .Even in Scotts cat., they are only listed as "used".
They seldom recieve an additional cancel and when soaked off envelopes,as with other postaly used stamps, they cannot be listed as "unused" because of lack of gum,even though they are in a condition of "as issued" on the face, they are already canceled(precanceled) and should be listed as used, no gum.
So the answer to used versus unused cannot be Just the difference of with/without gum, or with/without cancel, but must include types of stamps the terms are referring too.
We can add many ,many "but if" sub titles to the FAQ section on descriptions to be used. There are no simple solutions. And terms used are dependent on the stage of the hobby the individual collector has achieved ,that will determine what "philatelic terms" should be used, could be used, or even exist.
That said, check out the new listings of terms for coil stamps, the PNC3 site,home page. Now that's confuseing even for the experts.They have their own catalog,and terminology that only a collector with the deepest passion,understanding,and consternation for perfection,can decipher.
Lets not get too carried way with our FAQ for auction listing terms.
All we need is terms the average collector can associate with, and sellers can give honest descriptions that buyers can automatically associate with.
A simple mint or used will do. If a stamp is used,uncanceled,let the buyer contact the seller for more info on the item. There is a thing called too much information.
And just how many pages of info do you expect the seller to include,for that 10 cent item. How much info does the buyer want/need.
TOM
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
About those hyphens: It's not a matter of prevalence, but consistency and parallel structure. Hyphens aren't used in such common descriptors as "MNH," so I see no reason to use them in others. And the sellers will be happy -- less typing! :-)
Tom has illustrated perfectly the Alice in Wonderland aspect of philatelic description...
and I think we should take his advice to heart, particularly that advice about not getting too carried away with the FAQ.
However, the term "unused" does have a long history and is generally understood by collectors to refer to a stamp that has, for whatever reason, no adhesive and can be used for postage in the country of origin, provided that it has not been demonitized.
Tom is correct in saying that a mint stamp without gum is no longer mint, but that begs the question of how to describe those stamps that were issued without gum, such as many early stamps of Asia (and even postwar stamps), and those which have had their gum removed to prevent damage to the stamp (examples are German stamps with highly acidic gum and classic stamps with cracked gum).
There isn't a need to add a description for "Unused" to the FAQ because it's already there, in the details under M-NG.
A final note: "MLH" (Mint Light Hinged), "MHH" (Mint Heavy Hinged) and MHR (Mint Hinge Remnant) are common descriptors. I think we should add them to the list, perhaps under M-DG.
Bob Ingraham
(Message edited by Bobstamp on April 21, 2009)
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Bob,
Lately in major auctions I have seen the abbreviation NGAI. No it is not Vietnamese but stands for No Gum As Issued.
George
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
MLH, MHH and MHR are there under aka's in Mint Hinged.
We almost forgot one of our modern classics when talking about cancels - the hard to find and rare "pen cancel." Actually, I'm thinking of taking all these lemons and making some lemonade - I will become the site's first pen mark cancel/obliteration collector...
Andrew
(Message edited by andrejs on April 21, 2009)
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
In regards to Andrew's comments about 'pen cancels';
Fun comment gave me a smile, Andrew, but got me to thinking -
pen cancels and obliteration cancels can be quite different. I'm an avid US Revenues collector and I am always quite excited to find issues hand-canceled with a handwritten date on face as opposed to a machine-cancel. Might not be the pen MARK cancel he was referring to, but gave me pause to reflect, nonetheless.
Randy
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10:02:59am
re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
Well, I thought I'd about given all that I could concerning the FAQ on terms. But came across a little quote that may fit our educateing the members .
"Education isnt how much you have committed to memory,or even how much you know.
It's being able to differeniate between what you know,and what you dont."
Anatole France
TOM
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re: A New FAQ - Descriptive Terms
....amen to that, Tom!
Randy
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