Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
stampmanjack (Jack Leiby)
Login to Like
this post
Dear Jack,
That's to discourage anyone from trying to "snipe it". Had you put your bid in earlier in the day, the clock would have run out as scheduled. To discourage last second bidding, we've instituted that approach. Apparently you're used to the eBay type of bidding, where it's much more cut-throat.
Being a friendly, member based group, we go the extra mile to look out for those not as experienced
as you clearly are. Excellent question though, and it does bear repeating from time to time. Thanks for bringing it up.
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
Jack - Anytime a bid is placed within the last 10 hrs. of an auction's listing, the time is extended by 10 hrs, whether or not it is the first person bidding, the second bidder or subsequent bidder. There must be 10 hrs. WITHOUT a bid being placed before the auction lot closes.
If you place a first bid with 2 hrs. left before a lot closes, the auction software automatically pushes the closing time ahead by 8 hrs. so there are 10 hrs left before the lot actually closes.
In the auction tutorial it states..........
11. Last minute bidding. Our auction automatically eliminates "sniping," bids placed in the last second with hopes of beating all competition. Our auction automatically extends the auction by 10 hours any time the top bidder changes. This means that anyone who beats the high bidder will automatically extend the life of that lot for another 10 hours, even if that takes the close past the stated end time. This gives the previous high bidder (and anyone else) a chance to respond. The lesson in this, is "There is no advantage to bidding at the last second!"
I hope this answers your question.
Liz
Login to Like
this post
I am aware of the sniping rule and understand the need for a rule if you are outbidding someone. I have no argument with that but when you are the only bidder the rule makes absolutely no sense. I did not outbid anyone so no sniping was involved. The rule should only apply when there is already a bidder and he or she is outbid in the last few minutes or whatever time frame is used. I do not bid on eBay because it takes forever to find something. This one of the few auctions I even use because it is such a wonderful arrangement.
I generally do not bid at the last minute but do bid quite a bit in the last 24 hours as my schedule sometimes works better that way.
Based on the ex[lanation you have all given, then I go on record as opposing that interpretation. I read the section and it does not say to me that the auction is extended for ten hours if anyone bids in the last ten hours but rather that the auction is extended for ten hours if anyone is outbid in the last ten hours.
stampmanjack (Jack Leiby)
Login to Like
this post
Dear Jack,
You make an interesting observation about the linguistics, but am I wrong in thinking that there is a distinction but without a difference?
I believe that we agree for the need to protect our members from ' sharks', even though you of course are not a shark, and that the basic idea is acceptable to you, although the execution of it does put a strain on you given your work pattern.
How might you suggest we try to improve the rule to take your point into consideration?
All the best,
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
Sorry Liz; But I have to agree with Jack. This rule clearly states there must be more than one bidder to take effect. Sniping requires the action of another bidder. No bid is not a high bid. This (without getting into politics) is an
"anchor baby" rule. The solution is to fix the program. Lord knows, I hate sniping, I only buy from one dealer on Feebay and in order to get
something I have to be in the bidding up to the last second.
Login to Like
this post
It appears to me that the rule as stated is fine as is. The programming that causes it to kick in needs to be changed to reflect a 2nd bid in order to kick in.
Dan, I think you beat my comments by about 10
seconds. lol
Login to Like
this post
Hi Everyone,
I believe the rules are OK and that Jack makes a point worth considering. Let me talk this over with our distinguished auctioneer, and I'll take a couple of days to look at what options I have in the programs. I'll let you know what I find.
Regards ... Tim.
Login to Like
this post
I think the only way round this is to make the rule so that the highest bidder wins within the allotted time scale and to extend the auction would only cause say two highest bidders to either run out of time in attendance or bite the last of their finger nails off whilst waiting .. no all things apart to set the auction in concrete ''highest bidder'' wins.
On an earlier post ''Sharks'' plainly it's been found that their are double dealing sharks out there mascarading as so called bona fide dealers and dare I say some of us genuine collector/dealers have been bitten by these double edged chappies it's indeed a dent in the reputation and indeed the hobby when a case of double dealing comes to light.
Login to Like
this post
Personally, the ten hour rule does not bother me.
Perhaps the auction rule on this topic of bidding should be re-worded so that bidders know that even if they add to their bid, within a certain time frame, or bid within the last x number of hours, then the auction is extended by x number of hours.
The rationale behind the rule, it seems to me, was fairness, to insure that everyone had a chance to bid within a reasonable, extended period of time should they so desire.
If high bidders don't want to see a ten hour extension, then do not increase your bid within that time frame. Bid enough the first time, don't "snipe" your bid near the end or the auction time will be extended.
If someone bids on the item and the auction is extended, then the first bidder has ten hours to raise their bid. Again, fair.
Aside from modifying the wording to clarify how the auction works, I would leave the software fucntionality alone.
The ten hour rule accomplishes the intention to be fair.
Bruce
Login to Like
this post
I've been out of town, so I'm coming late to this discussion, but I think this sentence from Liz succinctly sums up what happens now...
"There must be 10 hrs. WITHOUT a bid being placed before the auction lot closes."
And as far as an auction policy goes, I'm okay with that, even though I've only been a buyer so far. If I start selling, I'd be VERY happy with a continuation of that policy. (I understand the issue of whether the auction tutorial actually says this...no reason the language can't be clarified to match whatever is decided on.)
I rarely have time to troll through the listings; I have to rely on the "Ending" function, so I regularly place the first bid on an item within the last ten hours. Yes, that opens the door for someone else to see the item, but so be it. I'm not buying the item from some faceless ebay seller...I'm buying it from one of us.
My 2d.
Collin
Login to Like
this post
I also like the 10 hour rule. If you want a stamp bad enough bid before the 10 hour rules comes into effect at the highest bid you're willing to pay. It still remains at the opening bid UNLESS someone tries to outbid you at the last second ... whereas now you have 10 hours to rebid "if you wish" ... Perry
Login to Like
this post
In most cases, I place a bid as to what I am willing to pay for an item and that is it. If I get outbid 15 hours, 15 minutes or 15 seconds before the close, I don't care as obviously someone is willing to pay more than I am. I do not think anything in our auction is a one of a kind and so I will get another chance eventually. I do not, however, mind the 10 hour rule - just how it is being applied. I guess I never noticed how it was being applied as I quitte often bid inside the 10 hour rule. Quite often, I will see something from one of my favorite sellers that I would not buy b y itself as the postage would be prohibitive but having already won a lot or two from them the new one will not increase the postage. Sometimes, I just see something I like better than I thought and put in the minimum bid. If someone outbids me so be it. If I really want a lot, I put in the max I am willing to pay and if I lose it, so be it.
I buy lots from a dealer who puts out a very interesting list. One needs to call as soon as you get the list to get all of the lots you want. I make a list of all I want and then wait a couple days to call. I don't get all of the lots but I get enough, I don't have to ask my wife for lunch money as I spent too much and know I will see the others another time.
I guess I am saying, I'm sorry I raised all the ruckus as it really doesn't bother me that much to begin with.
stampmanjack (Jack Leiby)
Login to Like
this post
it's probably about time I weighed in.
Liz correctly quotes our rule:
11. Last minute bidding. Our auction automatically eliminates "sniping," bids placed in the last second with hopes of beating all competition. Our auction automatically extends the auction by 10 hours any time the top bidder changes. This means that anyone who beats the high bidder will automatically extend the life of that lot for another 10 hours, even if that takes the close past the stated end time. This gives the previous high bidder (and anyone else) a chance to respond. The lesson in this, is "There is no advantage to bidding at the last second!"
However, I believe that the implementation of it isn't precise. Tim and I have discussed this in light of the discussion. Our initial intent was to preclude sniping. Not everyone wants this, of course. Some prefer to snipe; others aren't keen on the extension for multiple reasons. We can't please everyone, we know, but we are committed to precluding sniping.
Tim will try to rewrite the code to more exactly accomplish our intent. The code, as written, extends the auction in several instances that weren't necessarily envisioned: a new bidder and a top bidder expanding his/her proxy. If he can, Tim will remove those definitions from the code. Tim's a genius, we all know, but not all things are possible, even for genii.
So, our intent is to extend the auction anytime the top bidder is replaced by another, in that 10-hour frame. Lots with no bids will be unaffected; top bidders who add to their proxy will not be affected; top bidders who have proxies higher than any subsequent bid are unaffected. Only when an existing bidder is trumped in the final 10 hours will anything happen...assuming Tim can change the code.
Login to Like
this post
I have modified the 10 hour "sniping" extension so that it doesn't kick in until there are at least two bids. If anyone notices any problems with the way it is now working please let me know.
Regards ... Tim.
Login to Like
this post
Fantastic!
Login to Like
this post
Yes, I'm new here, but does this 10 hour rule really make sense? Look at the reality.... The vast majority of auction lots have either 1 or no bids. It doesn't prevent anything, because there isn't anything going on to prevent. All the 10 hour rule does is delay the lot closing and delay the seller getting paid. You have an ending date and time. Everyone knows what it is. If you want a stamp, make the bid you place the highest that you're willing to pay for the item. If you get outbid at the last second, well, you didn't want to pay that much for it anyway, so what's unfair about that? All this 10 hour thing does is promote low bids, because there is no reason to bid anything but the minimum, because if someone places the next minimum bid at the last minute, you say that's not fair to you even though you didn't care enough for the item but to pay the minimum amount anyway, which in itself is not fair to the seller. If all you want to do is bid the minimum, you deserve to lose the item at the last second, or even in the last ten hours. You're just trying to get a bargain at the expense of the seller.
(Message edited by michael78651 on September 14, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
Dear Michael,
Welcome to our club & our discussion board. On the points that you make, wouldn't the following take care of them?
Dan C.
By Fatherauld on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 8:36 am: Edit Post
I have modified the 10 hour "sniping" extension so that it doesn't kick in until there are at least two bids. If anyone notices any problems with the way it is now working please let me know.
Regards ... Tim.
Login to Like
this post
I have to agree with you Michael78651. The 10 hour auction extension rule makes no sense to me either.
Stamporama is the only auction site "I" know of that has this rule. I may be mistaken and stand to be corrected if this is the case.
If you are bidding on a lot it makes more sense to me to place the highest bid you are willing to pay for an item. If you are outbid, so be it.
Liz
Login to Like
this post
StampOffers/Wensy has an anti-sniping policy, as well, although the extension is much shorter in duration.
You can make a supportable argument that there is no point in ever bidding on ebay any earlier than fifteen seconds prior to the end of the auction. If you are going to bid frequently on ebay, you might as well use sniping software. Does Stamporama need to go down that road?
ebay is a giant, faceless marketplace. Here, I am routinely buying from a person I'm also bidding against for another item.
At least that is my 2d.
Collin
Login to Like
this post
The modification to the 10 hour extension that was made was fair, in my opinion.
I still like the ten hour extension to kick in if a second bid is made at the last minute.
Let's just say that I place what I would pay several times over the minimum for an item that happens to end at midnight, but someone else rolls in just before midnight (I've gone to bed) and outbids me. Now I have the opportunity to bid again if I bid within the ten hour extension time period. I'm not bummed out.
This would seem to benefit the seller too, wouldn't it? I can't speak for the other sellers, but it doesn't bother me as a seller if my lot offerings are extended...it means that the lot(s) has some bidding activity. A higher final bid will result.
So, by my logic both bidder and seller have something to gain from this.
If we were all standing in the same room for a predetermined amount of time, obviously such an auction extension would be impractical.
Bruce
(Message edited by stampme on September 15, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
I have no problem with the 10-hour extension rule on this site. I wouldn't dream of bidding for an item on EBay without using sniping software as it's the only way to protect yourself from shill bidding...something that is a non-issue on this site. In either case, however, I use identical strategies...just enter the highest price I'm willing to pay for an item with my original bid.
Login to Like
this post
First, welcome Michael #'s and Purrfin. I seem to remember you from "someplace". How did the heartwalk go this year?
To me, perhaps 10 hours is long. But, I believe the rule is just and fair. I used to visit a stamp only site until it started allowing sniper software. Yes, Michael the "good deals" started to disappear and I believe that to be because of some of the partners taken on by the site. I firmly believe that you should bid the highest amount that you are willing to pay, first! Even by doing this, I have come upon good deals. For me, I can think of only one instance that the 10 hour rule benefited me personally. It must have been of benefit to the seller as well, I would think. (That particular blank on the page got filled!)
The lots here that are affected by the rule now, are probably a minimal number compared to the past and even then that number was probably very low as the site is run by collectors, for collectors.
As for: "You're just trying to get a bargain at the expense of the seller.", aren't we all? If that is an issue for some sellers, perhaps the starting bid was/is too low. Sellers have the right to place the item at what they *need* to get paid for it.
IMHO
(Message edited by kellysboytoy on September 15, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
Shill bidding is not prevented by the 10 hour rule. Shill bidding doesn't occur here because this is a small site that is dedicated to stamp collectors only. With a small user base it would be easy to spot shilling. That's why you don't have shilling here. Also, there aren't any bids to speak of on auction lots. There are few lots with more than zero or 1 bid.
We all like to get bargains, but if you want to play "fair", then you have to be fair to the sellers as well. If you are a bidder, your proxy bid should always be more than the minimum set by the seller. Your bid should be fair and reflect the true market value of the item. If it is a $25 stamp and the opening bid is $1 and you bid only $1 you did not bid fairly. If the market value of that stamp is $10, then your bid should be close to the $10. If no one else bids, then you win it at $1 and you get a good bargain, but you should be prepared to pay fair market price. That's only fair. So, with people making fair bids, there is no need for a 10 hour rule.
Fair works both ways. It isn't just to get a good deal for the buyer.
Login to Like
this post
Thanks for the welcome! Some people here I haven't seen in a while. Good to find you again!
Login to Like
this post
Gee wheeeeez. Wasn't the 8 hours extenstion long enough without dragging it out another two hours and making it 10 hours.
Takes enough to discourage anyone from bidding.
Kathy
Login to Like
this post
I'm still not seeing any convincing opinions here for why the ten hour extension is bad for either seller or buyer. It gives buyers the chance to bid again regardless of their max bid and it can provide the seller with more income if the item continues to garner bids. That is fair for buyers and sellers.
Why would any extension discourage someone from bidding?
Just bid your maximum, then go to work or go to bed and don't worry about it. If you won, you won. If someone else won, well they won. If you just happen to come back to the auction page, discover that the item is in the final minutes of the ten hour extension, you would of course not bid on that item, right?
Me, I'd bid on it again.
Bruce
Login to Like
this post
Bruce, your last paragraph is perfect justification for not having the 10 hour extension. Bid and if you win, you win. The 10 hour rule is just something to placate whiners in the realm of "fairness", but isn't fair either. If you placed a minimum bid on the first hour that a lot is listed, and didn't pay any attention to it, because you only want to pay minimum bid, and I come along in the last hour and place a bid and become the high bidder, but I have to wait 10 hours at least until I can win the item is that fair to me? No. You didn't want to pay more for it anyway, so why should I have to wait. If an auction lot closes while a bidder is asleep, is that fair? No, they should be awake, but then if they're awake, another bidder may be alseep and miss out on the chance to place another bid before the lot closes. Is that fair? No. Someone else wanted to bid on an item but got sick, now he can't bid. Is that fair? If you want fairness, then you have to be fair to all possibilities, and that isn't possible, and it goes to the absurd as is probably evident in my examples. Life isn't fair. That's the way it is.
The way that the 10 Hour Rule is written in the auction policy section, it says that the 10 hours resets every time there is a bid that results in a new high bidder. That means that a lot can go on and on and on and on. That to me is a reason not to bid on auction items. So, dissuading people from bidding isn't fair to those bidders or to the sellers because they will lose potential bids. But it is fair to the few who will bid, because they get something real cheap, but that isn't fair either.
If that is not how the programming works, then the rule needs to be corrected.
Login to Like
this post
Dear All,
Are we trying to fix something that isn't broken?
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
Michael,
To be fair, I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish here with your opinion on the ten hour extension.
On the one hand you have advocated a somewhat Utopian vision of why bidders have to bid fair market value from the beginning to be fair to the seller.
Then, you advocate that life isn't fair which would seem to replace the Utopian philosophy of bidding you've proposed we all follow with a discourse on and aspect of social Darwinism as it would relate to our auction: "Life isn't fair. That's the way it is."
I really like the rule that advocates for some fairness in a world that often is not fair.
As a seller, if an auction went on and on, I wouldn't mind that at all because it would mean the price was going up and up and up. At some point the ascent will cease. One must cultivate patience in these situations.
As a buyer, the rule hasn't stopped me from bidding. If someone, as has happened more than once to me, jumps in and bids, triggering the ten hour extension, I bid accordingly. Some times I win. Some times I lose. Life will go on. New items will be listed, some will be won or some will be lost.
Login to Like
this post
#1, I am not advocating changing the 10 hour rule, so y'all can rest easier now. I do think, however, that it needs to be reviewed to see if it needs to be updated.
I have heard over the years various tidbits from people pro-sniping and anti-sniping. Ending on time and extending. I am interested in hearing the various opinions in a single setting. The posting here offered that setting, and the conversation has been well tempered. I appreciate that.
Login to Like
this post
Oh please! stop the bickering and ideas "pro" and "con" bid for an item in such a way no matter what others bid will never catch up with your bid: eg.,"minimum bid's--let's say $5.25" and you really wet the key board---you HAVE TO HAVE that item, bet $9.25 I am sure you'll get the item at $7.00 risks? somebody bid more than $9.25 and you are left with the "ITEM YOU REALLY WANTED AND COULDN'T LIVE W/O IT" well there are worst things in life!
Stamp as you want, don't let that lot go and get it at ANY price! lol!
Sefardisafran (LuisM)
Login to Like
this post
It seems like most items I have purchased through the Stamporama auction have been extremely underpriced, i.e. they generally are worth more than the winning bid. Most items I have sold have not realized what I thought they were worth. I don't care since it benefits other collectors and I'm not in it to make money, just dispose of extra material. But, given the fact that most items are sold for far less than real value, collectors should be willing to bid higher if they really want the stamp. At times I will bid up to catalog value when I really want the stamps. Seldom do I get outbid and even more rare is the time that my final amount exceeds even 50% of catalog value which is probably close to a fair value. So, I don't see a problem here. The rules are in place and everyone should be aware of them when they use SOR auctions. Bid accordingly and be happy with the no-fee terms which benefit everyone. Otherwise use eBay!
Login to Like
this post
I agree that the discussion has remained civil, as does almost every thread on this board. It speaks well of the membership.
I have a few more thoughts about auctions, and I'll put them out here for whatever they're worth.
Stamp auctions exist because there is no generally accepted market value for many items. Some dealers ask, and get, Scott values and more. Some buyers won't pay more than 15% of CV, regardless. Most of us live somewhere in the middle.
Auctions let a seller test the market with his or her items. Before the Internet, the more-common items could only be auctioned at stamp clubs. The auction houses only wanted to deal with the higher-value items, or larger lots, and even mail sales usually didn't have a prevalence of stamps with a CV of only a dollar or three. The Internet has created the ability for collectors big and small to auction items to a large audience.
It seems to me that a fixed ending time to an auction is generally a necessity of the limitations of a particular auction model. Live auctions don't have fixed ending times. Dealers wanted more exposure to their items, so the mail sale was created. In that context, there has to be an ending date, and you had better "bid enough." I accept that limitation in that context, because it is the only practical way to manage the sale. (That being said, I've pretty much stopped paying attention to all but two mail sale lists. I know I might be missing good material, but so be it.)
ebay didn't need to follow the construct of a fixed ending time, but it did, and it took almost no time for snipers to surface. Sniping is just a part of using the auction model to one's advantage. I don't look at it as good or bad.
My question is, why is having a fixed ending to an auction now considered a worthwhile goal, when another method exists?
Login to Like
this post
Ah! I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
Login to Like
this post
CJD you make some good observations.
In my first week here I found a bunch of items to bid on and had a bidding war with one other user. Some of the bids went at or above catalog. I won several, and did not win several others.
In today's economy the brick and mortar stamp shops can no longer deal with low valued items. Many dealers say they will not sell anything that cats less than $10, because it doesn't pay the rent and put food on the table. Low and no fee stamp sites on the internet have provided the means through store lots, fixed fee lots and auction lots for collectors to obtain the lower valued material that they need.
With the high commissions charged by Ebay and the APS and others like them, low-valued items cannot logistically be sold there without the seller taking a loss. Sites like Stamporama, Bidstart and Stamphead and others like them offer collectors and dealers the opportunity to sell the lower valued material and still make a penny or two off the sale. I have been selling stamps on the internet for 15 years, and I have moved alot of stamps with cats less than 50 cents, and continue to do so. The better material will always sell too, but there is a definite demand for the small fries in philately.
As regards to auto-extensions of online auctions, I understand the rationale behind it. Am I in favor of it, no. Will I lose sleep over an internet site having such a function, no. Are there ways to "beat" such a system, yes, just as there are with the other auction sites (i.e. sniping). No system is perfect. One just has to know the rules when playing the game on one site or the other. That way you can maximize your winnings.
Login to Like
this post
I agree with Michael, that the stamps shops and most dealers cannot afford to sell the cheap stamps, so what does one do? They cannot depend on the auctions to get the stamps that they need to fill in those spaces, so they have to look for some idiot that is willing to put in the time and effort to sell those minimum 20¢ catalog priced stamp and fill a general want list. I know someone that is willing to do that!
Richaard
Login to Like
this post
I resemble that remark!
Login to Like
this post
First, hello back to Kellysboytoy! Wondered where you went.
Now that we have all learned on how to bid, can we get back to listing all those "minimum values" so that we can practice on "how not to bid"?
I have a funny feeling that most of us have been around the block once or twice... well, stop!!!! (its too heart healthy). You are wasting time, start listing!
Dianne
Login to Like
this post
Michael said;
"We all like to get bargains, but if you want to play "fair", then you have to be fair to the sellers as well. If you are a bidder, your proxy bid should always be more than the minimum set by the seller. Your bid should be fair and reflect the true market value of the item. If it is a $25 stamp and the opening bid is $1 and you bid only $1 you did not bid fairly. If the market value of that stamp is $10, then your bid should be close to the $10"
I am totally befuddled with this line of thinking! If a seller wants to sell an item worth $25 and WANTS to GET $25 for it, then it's HIS responsibility to set his minimum bid at or near his 25 dollar mark. It is NOT the responsibility of the bidder to bid at or near the item's value, especially if the seller sets his minimum bid low.
If a seller wants a certain amount then he should start AT that amount.
90% of what we bid on is to "get a deal" - the other 10% is because we "just gotta have it."
If you go to buy a used car, do you immediately pay the "listed" price on the car? I think not, unless money is no object for you or you "just havd to have it!" No! You make an offer of a lower amount.
Just my 4 cents (inflation, you know...)
Randy
Login to Like
this post
Michael, have you looked at my stuff lately?
David
Login to Like
this post
Buying a car and buying a stamp are two totally different transaction types. The dealers are given incentives and financial bonuses as well as hold-back money based on overall sales that allows them to sell cars at varying discounts and still make a profit.
My comment bottom line was that a bidder should expect to pay fair market value for a stamp that is up for auction. It doesn't matter what the opening bid is. If no one else bids, then the bidder gets a great deal, which happens quite often. If a seller has a $25 stamp and puts it up at $25 starting bid, then no one will bid on it. Stamp collectors have a block when it comes to paying catalog value for a stamp, but when they try to sell it to a dealer, they expect to get full catalog value or else call the dealer a crook. Unlike a car dealership, a dealer gets no incentives from an auto manufacturer. Dealers can only buy at a level that they know they can turn the material around and earn a profit so that they can pay their bills. Try buying a new car for 75% off MSRP and then demand 100% of that MSRP when you trade it in.
Login to Like
this post
Seems to me that the "fair market value" is whatever a dealer is willing to accept for the stamp...or car....or whatever the item in question may be.
The dealer in essence is 'setting' the market value at the moment he accepts an offer.
...my other few cents.
Login to Like
this post
...just a note;
seems we've gotten off the path of the main discussion here, so I'll not debate any further except on the main topic.
Don't want to step on any toes here.
Randy
Login to Like
this post
After Tim fixed it,I'm Ok with the rule.
One other small point: if anybody lists a $100.00
stamp that starts at a dollar, I'll genarally
bid on it. It's fair game.
Login to Like
this post
Game on, man!
Login to Like
this post
Dear Carl,
You're a funny guy, but in all seriousness there are many times that you will see top material offered on SOR at way underpriced starting bids. Getting in early and possibly getting the item at or near the opening bid is the way to go.
All good thoughts,
Dan
Login to Like
this post
I know this is getting way off topic, but the auction lots that I love to watch are Lee's where she puts a couple of pounds (weight) of stamps together and lists it in the auction at min bid 1c. And then you just watch the bidding take off.
Tim.
Login to Like
this post
Lee don't be fooled by Tim A's Mr nice guy routine. He's just suckin up in the hope that if he gets one of your boxes you'll throw in a few more juicy bits.
This is the real Tim A.
Tim2
Login to Like
this post
LOL Tim2
cute pic 
You never know what you might find in one of my boxes
Lee
Login to Like
this post
PS. Tim2, the above image needs to have an Australian flag.
Tim1.
Login to Like
this post
Dear Tim 1 ,Tim 2& Lee,
You are all bringing to the fore the real underlying purpose of our club, and indeed our hobby itself-TO HAVE FUN!
Sometimes we get caught up in seriousness, costs,semantic issues and lose sight of what you are reminding us all about. We're here to enjoy the hobby & each other. Guys, you rock.
In appreciation,
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
Tim A, can you ever forgive me. I mixed up your pic with one of big Dave Teislers [never seen him look so good]
Tim2
(Message edited by greenmouse on September 22, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
Dear Patches-not a ghost-a WIZARD!!!
(They can take all kinds of shapes you know)
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
i'm aghast that Tim's aghost
all the time i thought he was saying ROO, it was really BOO
Login to Like
this post
08:43:16pm
Can anyone tell me why the auction was extended on a number of items that I bid on today when I am the only bidder. I understand the reason for it when two people are bidding but do not understand why when my bid as the sole bid did not overbid anyone. Theoretically that would allow someone to then overbid me even though I was the only bidder and bid timely. It looks as if I will still get the items but this has happened before.
stampmanjack (Jack Leiby)
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Dear Jack,
That's to discourage anyone from trying to "snipe it". Had you put your bid in earlier in the day, the clock would have run out as scheduled. To discourage last second bidding, we've instituted that approach. Apparently you're used to the eBay type of bidding, where it's much more cut-throat.
Being a friendly, member based group, we go the extra mile to look out for those not as experienced
as you clearly are. Excellent question though, and it does bear repeating from time to time. Thanks for bringing it up.
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Jack - Anytime a bid is placed within the last 10 hrs. of an auction's listing, the time is extended by 10 hrs, whether or not it is the first person bidding, the second bidder or subsequent bidder. There must be 10 hrs. WITHOUT a bid being placed before the auction lot closes.
If you place a first bid with 2 hrs. left before a lot closes, the auction software automatically pushes the closing time ahead by 8 hrs. so there are 10 hrs left before the lot actually closes.
In the auction tutorial it states..........
11. Last minute bidding. Our auction automatically eliminates "sniping," bids placed in the last second with hopes of beating all competition. Our auction automatically extends the auction by 10 hours any time the top bidder changes. This means that anyone who beats the high bidder will automatically extend the life of that lot for another 10 hours, even if that takes the close past the stated end time. This gives the previous high bidder (and anyone else) a chance to respond. The lesson in this, is "There is no advantage to bidding at the last second!"
I hope this answers your question.
Liz
Login to Like
this post
01:33:38am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I am aware of the sniping rule and understand the need for a rule if you are outbidding someone. I have no argument with that but when you are the only bidder the rule makes absolutely no sense. I did not outbid anyone so no sniping was involved. The rule should only apply when there is already a bidder and he or she is outbid in the last few minutes or whatever time frame is used. I do not bid on eBay because it takes forever to find something. This one of the few auctions I even use because it is such a wonderful arrangement.
I generally do not bid at the last minute but do bid quite a bit in the last 24 hours as my schedule sometimes works better that way.
Based on the ex[lanation you have all given, then I go on record as opposing that interpretation. I read the section and it does not say to me that the auction is extended for ten hours if anyone bids in the last ten hours but rather that the auction is extended for ten hours if anyone is outbid in the last ten hours.
stampmanjack (Jack Leiby)
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Dear Jack,
You make an interesting observation about the linguistics, but am I wrong in thinking that there is a distinction but without a difference?
I believe that we agree for the need to protect our members from ' sharks', even though you of course are not a shark, and that the basic idea is acceptable to you, although the execution of it does put a strain on you given your work pattern.
How might you suggest we try to improve the rule to take your point into consideration?
All the best,
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions - Approvals
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Sorry Liz; But I have to agree with Jack. This rule clearly states there must be more than one bidder to take effect. Sniping requires the action of another bidder. No bid is not a high bid. This (without getting into politics) is an
"anchor baby" rule. The solution is to fix the program. Lord knows, I hate sniping, I only buy from one dealer on Feebay and in order to get
something I have to be in the bidding up to the last second.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions - Approvals
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
It appears to me that the rule as stated is fine as is. The programming that causes it to kick in needs to be changed to reflect a 2nd bid in order to kick in.
Dan, I think you beat my comments by about 10
seconds. lol
Login to Like
this post
08:46:07am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Hi Everyone,
I believe the rules are OK and that Jack makes a point worth considering. Let me talk this over with our distinguished auctioneer, and I'll take a couple of days to look at what options I have in the programs. I'll let you know what I find.
Regards ... Tim.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I think the only way round this is to make the rule so that the highest bidder wins within the allotted time scale and to extend the auction would only cause say two highest bidders to either run out of time in attendance or bite the last of their finger nails off whilst waiting .. no all things apart to set the auction in concrete ''highest bidder'' wins.
On an earlier post ''Sharks'' plainly it's been found that their are double dealing sharks out there mascarading as so called bona fide dealers and dare I say some of us genuine collector/dealers have been bitten by these double edged chappies it's indeed a dent in the reputation and indeed the hobby when a case of double dealing comes to light.
Login to Like
this post
09:27:01am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Personally, the ten hour rule does not bother me.
Perhaps the auction rule on this topic of bidding should be re-worded so that bidders know that even if they add to their bid, within a certain time frame, or bid within the last x number of hours, then the auction is extended by x number of hours.
The rationale behind the rule, it seems to me, was fairness, to insure that everyone had a chance to bid within a reasonable, extended period of time should they so desire.
If high bidders don't want to see a ten hour extension, then do not increase your bid within that time frame. Bid enough the first time, don't "snipe" your bid near the end or the auction time will be extended.
If someone bids on the item and the auction is extended, then the first bidder has ten hours to raise their bid. Again, fair.
Aside from modifying the wording to clarify how the auction works, I would leave the software fucntionality alone.
The ten hour rule accomplishes the intention to be fair.
Bruce
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I've been out of town, so I'm coming late to this discussion, but I think this sentence from Liz succinctly sums up what happens now...
"There must be 10 hrs. WITHOUT a bid being placed before the auction lot closes."
And as far as an auction policy goes, I'm okay with that, even though I've only been a buyer so far. If I start selling, I'd be VERY happy with a continuation of that policy. (I understand the issue of whether the auction tutorial actually says this...no reason the language can't be clarified to match whatever is decided on.)
I rarely have time to troll through the listings; I have to rely on the "Ending" function, so I regularly place the first bid on an item within the last ten hours. Yes, that opens the door for someone else to see the item, but so be it. I'm not buying the item from some faceless ebay seller...I'm buying it from one of us.
My 2d.
Collin
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I also like the 10 hour rule. If you want a stamp bad enough bid before the 10 hour rules comes into effect at the highest bid you're willing to pay. It still remains at the opening bid UNLESS someone tries to outbid you at the last second ... whereas now you have 10 hours to rebid "if you wish" ... Perry
Login to Like
this post
10:53:17am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
In most cases, I place a bid as to what I am willing to pay for an item and that is it. If I get outbid 15 hours, 15 minutes or 15 seconds before the close, I don't care as obviously someone is willing to pay more than I am. I do not think anything in our auction is a one of a kind and so I will get another chance eventually. I do not, however, mind the 10 hour rule - just how it is being applied. I guess I never noticed how it was being applied as I quitte often bid inside the 10 hour rule. Quite often, I will see something from one of my favorite sellers that I would not buy b y itself as the postage would be prohibitive but having already won a lot or two from them the new one will not increase the postage. Sometimes, I just see something I like better than I thought and put in the minimum bid. If someone outbids me so be it. If I really want a lot, I put in the max I am willing to pay and if I lose it, so be it.
I buy lots from a dealer who puts out a very interesting list. One needs to call as soon as you get the list to get all of the lots you want. I make a list of all I want and then wait a couple days to call. I don't get all of the lots but I get enough, I don't have to ask my wife for lunch money as I spent too much and know I will see the others another time.
I guess I am saying, I'm sorry I raised all the ruckus as it really doesn't bother me that much to begin with.
stampmanjack (Jack Leiby)
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
it's probably about time I weighed in.
Liz correctly quotes our rule:
11. Last minute bidding. Our auction automatically eliminates "sniping," bids placed in the last second with hopes of beating all competition. Our auction automatically extends the auction by 10 hours any time the top bidder changes. This means that anyone who beats the high bidder will automatically extend the life of that lot for another 10 hours, even if that takes the close past the stated end time. This gives the previous high bidder (and anyone else) a chance to respond. The lesson in this, is "There is no advantage to bidding at the last second!"
However, I believe that the implementation of it isn't precise. Tim and I have discussed this in light of the discussion. Our initial intent was to preclude sniping. Not everyone wants this, of course. Some prefer to snipe; others aren't keen on the extension for multiple reasons. We can't please everyone, we know, but we are committed to precluding sniping.
Tim will try to rewrite the code to more exactly accomplish our intent. The code, as written, extends the auction in several instances that weren't necessarily envisioned: a new bidder and a top bidder expanding his/her proxy. If he can, Tim will remove those definitions from the code. Tim's a genius, we all know, but not all things are possible, even for genii.
So, our intent is to extend the auction anytime the top bidder is replaced by another, in that 10-hour frame. Lots with no bids will be unaffected; top bidders who add to their proxy will not be affected; top bidders who have proxies higher than any subsequent bid are unaffected. Only when an existing bidder is trumped in the final 10 hours will anything happen...assuming Tim can change the code.
Login to Like
this post
08:36:20am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I have modified the 10 hour "sniping" extension so that it doesn't kick in until there are at least two bids. If anyone notices any problems with the way it is now working please let me know.
Regards ... Tim.
Login to Like
this post
11:35:28pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Yes, I'm new here, but does this 10 hour rule really make sense? Look at the reality.... The vast majority of auction lots have either 1 or no bids. It doesn't prevent anything, because there isn't anything going on to prevent. All the 10 hour rule does is delay the lot closing and delay the seller getting paid. You have an ending date and time. Everyone knows what it is. If you want a stamp, make the bid you place the highest that you're willing to pay for the item. If you get outbid at the last second, well, you didn't want to pay that much for it anyway, so what's unfair about that? All this 10 hour thing does is promote low bids, because there is no reason to bid anything but the minimum, because if someone places the next minimum bid at the last minute, you say that's not fair to you even though you didn't care enough for the item but to pay the minimum amount anyway, which in itself is not fair to the seller. If all you want to do is bid the minimum, you deserve to lose the item at the last second, or even in the last ten hours. You're just trying to get a bargain at the expense of the seller.
(Message edited by michael78651 on September 14, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Dear Michael,
Welcome to our club & our discussion board. On the points that you make, wouldn't the following take care of them?
Dan C.
By Fatherauld on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 8:36 am: Edit Post
I have modified the 10 hour "sniping" extension so that it doesn't kick in until there are at least two bids. If anyone notices any problems with the way it is now working please let me know.
Regards ... Tim.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I have to agree with you Michael78651. The 10 hour auction extension rule makes no sense to me either.
Stamporama is the only auction site "I" know of that has this rule. I may be mistaken and stand to be corrected if this is the case.
If you are bidding on a lot it makes more sense to me to place the highest bid you are willing to pay for an item. If you are outbid, so be it.
Liz
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
StampOffers/Wensy has an anti-sniping policy, as well, although the extension is much shorter in duration.
You can make a supportable argument that there is no point in ever bidding on ebay any earlier than fifteen seconds prior to the end of the auction. If you are going to bid frequently on ebay, you might as well use sniping software. Does Stamporama need to go down that road?
ebay is a giant, faceless marketplace. Here, I am routinely buying from a person I'm also bidding against for another item.
At least that is my 2d.
Collin
Login to Like
this post
12:43:42am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
The modification to the 10 hour extension that was made was fair, in my opinion.
I still like the ten hour extension to kick in if a second bid is made at the last minute.
Let's just say that I place what I would pay several times over the minimum for an item that happens to end at midnight, but someone else rolls in just before midnight (I've gone to bed) and outbids me. Now I have the opportunity to bid again if I bid within the ten hour extension time period. I'm not bummed out.
This would seem to benefit the seller too, wouldn't it? I can't speak for the other sellers, but it doesn't bother me as a seller if my lot offerings are extended...it means that the lot(s) has some bidding activity. A higher final bid will result.
So, by my logic both bidder and seller have something to gain from this.
If we were all standing in the same room for a predetermined amount of time, obviously such an auction extension would be impractical.
Bruce
(Message edited by stampme on September 15, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I have no problem with the 10-hour extension rule on this site. I wouldn't dream of bidding for an item on EBay without using sniping software as it's the only way to protect yourself from shill bidding...something that is a non-issue on this site. In either case, however, I use identical strategies...just enter the highest price I'm willing to pay for an item with my original bid.
Login to Like
this post
08:08:18am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
First, welcome Michael #'s and Purrfin. I seem to remember you from "someplace". How did the heartwalk go this year?
To me, perhaps 10 hours is long. But, I believe the rule is just and fair. I used to visit a stamp only site until it started allowing sniper software. Yes, Michael the "good deals" started to disappear and I believe that to be because of some of the partners taken on by the site. I firmly believe that you should bid the highest amount that you are willing to pay, first! Even by doing this, I have come upon good deals. For me, I can think of only one instance that the 10 hour rule benefited me personally. It must have been of benefit to the seller as well, I would think. (That particular blank on the page got filled!)
The lots here that are affected by the rule now, are probably a minimal number compared to the past and even then that number was probably very low as the site is run by collectors, for collectors.
As for: "You're just trying to get a bargain at the expense of the seller.", aren't we all? If that is an issue for some sellers, perhaps the starting bid was/is too low. Sellers have the right to place the item at what they *need* to get paid for it.
IMHO
(Message edited by kellysboytoy on September 15, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
08:36:57am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Shill bidding is not prevented by the 10 hour rule. Shill bidding doesn't occur here because this is a small site that is dedicated to stamp collectors only. With a small user base it would be easy to spot shilling. That's why you don't have shilling here. Also, there aren't any bids to speak of on auction lots. There are few lots with more than zero or 1 bid.
We all like to get bargains, but if you want to play "fair", then you have to be fair to the sellers as well. If you are a bidder, your proxy bid should always be more than the minimum set by the seller. Your bid should be fair and reflect the true market value of the item. If it is a $25 stamp and the opening bid is $1 and you bid only $1 you did not bid fairly. If the market value of that stamp is $10, then your bid should be close to the $10. If no one else bids, then you win it at $1 and you get a good bargain, but you should be prepared to pay fair market price. That's only fair. So, with people making fair bids, there is no need for a 10 hour rule.
Fair works both ways. It isn't just to get a good deal for the buyer.
Login to Like
this post
08:38:34am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Thanks for the welcome! Some people here I haven't seen in a while. Good to find you again!
Login to Like
this post
09:14:41am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Gee wheeeeez. Wasn't the 8 hours extenstion long enough without dragging it out another two hours and making it 10 hours.
Takes enough to discourage anyone from bidding.
Kathy
Login to Like
this post
09:43:41am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I'm still not seeing any convincing opinions here for why the ten hour extension is bad for either seller or buyer. It gives buyers the chance to bid again regardless of their max bid and it can provide the seller with more income if the item continues to garner bids. That is fair for buyers and sellers.
Why would any extension discourage someone from bidding?
Just bid your maximum, then go to work or go to bed and don't worry about it. If you won, you won. If someone else won, well they won. If you just happen to come back to the auction page, discover that the item is in the final minutes of the ten hour extension, you would of course not bid on that item, right?
Me, I'd bid on it again.
Bruce
Login to Like
this post
10:00:11am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Bruce, your last paragraph is perfect justification for not having the 10 hour extension. Bid and if you win, you win. The 10 hour rule is just something to placate whiners in the realm of "fairness", but isn't fair either. If you placed a minimum bid on the first hour that a lot is listed, and didn't pay any attention to it, because you only want to pay minimum bid, and I come along in the last hour and place a bid and become the high bidder, but I have to wait 10 hours at least until I can win the item is that fair to me? No. You didn't want to pay more for it anyway, so why should I have to wait. If an auction lot closes while a bidder is asleep, is that fair? No, they should be awake, but then if they're awake, another bidder may be alseep and miss out on the chance to place another bid before the lot closes. Is that fair? No. Someone else wanted to bid on an item but got sick, now he can't bid. Is that fair? If you want fairness, then you have to be fair to all possibilities, and that isn't possible, and it goes to the absurd as is probably evident in my examples. Life isn't fair. That's the way it is.
The way that the 10 Hour Rule is written in the auction policy section, it says that the 10 hours resets every time there is a bid that results in a new high bidder. That means that a lot can go on and on and on and on. That to me is a reason not to bid on auction items. So, dissuading people from bidding isn't fair to those bidders or to the sellers because they will lose potential bids. But it is fair to the few who will bid, because they get something real cheap, but that isn't fair either.
If that is not how the programming works, then the rule needs to be corrected.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Dear All,
Are we trying to fix something that isn't broken?
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
11:17:47am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Michael,
To be fair, I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish here with your opinion on the ten hour extension.
On the one hand you have advocated a somewhat Utopian vision of why bidders have to bid fair market value from the beginning to be fair to the seller.
Then, you advocate that life isn't fair which would seem to replace the Utopian philosophy of bidding you've proposed we all follow with a discourse on and aspect of social Darwinism as it would relate to our auction: "Life isn't fair. That's the way it is."
I really like the rule that advocates for some fairness in a world that often is not fair.
As a seller, if an auction went on and on, I wouldn't mind that at all because it would mean the price was going up and up and up. At some point the ascent will cease. One must cultivate patience in these situations.
As a buyer, the rule hasn't stopped me from bidding. If someone, as has happened more than once to me, jumps in and bids, triggering the ten hour extension, I bid accordingly. Some times I win. Some times I lose. Life will go on. New items will be listed, some will be won or some will be lost.
Login to Like
this post
12:00:38pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
#1, I am not advocating changing the 10 hour rule, so y'all can rest easier now. I do think, however, that it needs to be reviewed to see if it needs to be updated.
I have heard over the years various tidbits from people pro-sniping and anti-sniping. Ending on time and extending. I am interested in hearing the various opinions in a single setting. The posting here offered that setting, and the conversation has been well tempered. I appreciate that.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Oh please! stop the bickering and ideas "pro" and "con" bid for an item in such a way no matter what others bid will never catch up with your bid: eg.,"minimum bid's--let's say $5.25" and you really wet the key board---you HAVE TO HAVE that item, bet $9.25 I am sure you'll get the item at $7.00 risks? somebody bid more than $9.25 and you are left with the "ITEM YOU REALLY WANTED AND COULDN'T LIVE W/O IT" well there are worst things in life!
Stamp as you want, don't let that lot go and get it at ANY price! lol!
Sefardisafran (LuisM)
Login to Like
this post
02:21:37pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
It seems like most items I have purchased through the Stamporama auction have been extremely underpriced, i.e. they generally are worth more than the winning bid. Most items I have sold have not realized what I thought they were worth. I don't care since it benefits other collectors and I'm not in it to make money, just dispose of extra material. But, given the fact that most items are sold for far less than real value, collectors should be willing to bid higher if they really want the stamp. At times I will bid up to catalog value when I really want the stamps. Seldom do I get outbid and even more rare is the time that my final amount exceeds even 50% of catalog value which is probably close to a fair value. So, I don't see a problem here. The rules are in place and everyone should be aware of them when they use SOR auctions. Bid accordingly and be happy with the no-fee terms which benefit everyone. Otherwise use eBay!
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I agree that the discussion has remained civil, as does almost every thread on this board. It speaks well of the membership.
I have a few more thoughts about auctions, and I'll put them out here for whatever they're worth.
Stamp auctions exist because there is no generally accepted market value for many items. Some dealers ask, and get, Scott values and more. Some buyers won't pay more than 15% of CV, regardless. Most of us live somewhere in the middle.
Auctions let a seller test the market with his or her items. Before the Internet, the more-common items could only be auctioned at stamp clubs. The auction houses only wanted to deal with the higher-value items, or larger lots, and even mail sales usually didn't have a prevalence of stamps with a CV of only a dollar or three. The Internet has created the ability for collectors big and small to auction items to a large audience.
It seems to me that a fixed ending time to an auction is generally a necessity of the limitations of a particular auction model. Live auctions don't have fixed ending times. Dealers wanted more exposure to their items, so the mail sale was created. In that context, there has to be an ending date, and you had better "bid enough." I accept that limitation in that context, because it is the only practical way to manage the sale. (That being said, I've pretty much stopped paying attention to all but two mail sale lists. I know I might be missing good material, but so be it.)
ebay didn't need to follow the construct of a fixed ending time, but it did, and it took almost no time for snipers to surface. Sniping is just a part of using the auction model to one's advantage. I don't look at it as good or bad.
My question is, why is having a fixed ending to an auction now considered a worthwhile goal, when another method exists?
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Ah! I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
Login to Like
this post
04:19:17pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
CJD you make some good observations.
In my first week here I found a bunch of items to bid on and had a bidding war with one other user. Some of the bids went at or above catalog. I won several, and did not win several others.
In today's economy the brick and mortar stamp shops can no longer deal with low valued items. Many dealers say they will not sell anything that cats less than $10, because it doesn't pay the rent and put food on the table. Low and no fee stamp sites on the internet have provided the means through store lots, fixed fee lots and auction lots for collectors to obtain the lower valued material that they need.
With the high commissions charged by Ebay and the APS and others like them, low-valued items cannot logistically be sold there without the seller taking a loss. Sites like Stamporama, Bidstart and Stamphead and others like them offer collectors and dealers the opportunity to sell the lower valued material and still make a penny or two off the sale. I have been selling stamps on the internet for 15 years, and I have moved alot of stamps with cats less than 50 cents, and continue to do so. The better material will always sell too, but there is a definite demand for the small fries in philately.
As regards to auto-extensions of online auctions, I understand the rationale behind it. Am I in favor of it, no. Will I lose sleep over an internet site having such a function, no. Are there ways to "beat" such a system, yes, just as there are with the other auction sites (i.e. sniping). No system is perfect. One just has to know the rules when playing the game on one site or the other. That way you can maximize your winnings.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I agree with Michael, that the stamps shops and most dealers cannot afford to sell the cheap stamps, so what does one do? They cannot depend on the auctions to get the stamps that they need to fill in those spaces, so they have to look for some idiot that is willing to put in the time and effort to sell those minimum 20¢ catalog priced stamp and fill a general want list. I know someone that is willing to do that!
Richaard
Login to Like
this post
12:05:29am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I resemble that remark!
Login to Like
this post
08:31:38am
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
First, hello back to Kellysboytoy! Wondered where you went.
Now that we have all learned on how to bid, can we get back to listing all those "minimum values" so that we can practice on "how not to bid"?
I have a funny feeling that most of us have been around the block once or twice... well, stop!!!! (its too heart healthy). You are wasting time, start listing!
Dianne
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Michael said;
"We all like to get bargains, but if you want to play "fair", then you have to be fair to the sellers as well. If you are a bidder, your proxy bid should always be more than the minimum set by the seller. Your bid should be fair and reflect the true market value of the item. If it is a $25 stamp and the opening bid is $1 and you bid only $1 you did not bid fairly. If the market value of that stamp is $10, then your bid should be close to the $10"
I am totally befuddled with this line of thinking! If a seller wants to sell an item worth $25 and WANTS to GET $25 for it, then it's HIS responsibility to set his minimum bid at or near his 25 dollar mark. It is NOT the responsibility of the bidder to bid at or near the item's value, especially if the seller sets his minimum bid low.
If a seller wants a certain amount then he should start AT that amount.
90% of what we bid on is to "get a deal" - the other 10% is because we "just gotta have it."
If you go to buy a used car, do you immediately pay the "listed" price on the car? I think not, unless money is no object for you or you "just havd to have it!" No! You make an offer of a lower amount.
Just my 4 cents (inflation, you know...)
Randy
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Michael, have you looked at my stuff lately?
David
Login to Like
this post
01:15:16pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Buying a car and buying a stamp are two totally different transaction types. The dealers are given incentives and financial bonuses as well as hold-back money based on overall sales that allows them to sell cars at varying discounts and still make a profit.
My comment bottom line was that a bidder should expect to pay fair market value for a stamp that is up for auction. It doesn't matter what the opening bid is. If no one else bids, then the bidder gets a great deal, which happens quite often. If a seller has a $25 stamp and puts it up at $25 starting bid, then no one will bid on it. Stamp collectors have a block when it comes to paying catalog value for a stamp, but when they try to sell it to a dealer, they expect to get full catalog value or else call the dealer a crook. Unlike a car dealership, a dealer gets no incentives from an auto manufacturer. Dealers can only buy at a level that they know they can turn the material around and earn a profit so that they can pay their bills. Try buying a new car for 75% off MSRP and then demand 100% of that MSRP when you trade it in.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Seems to me that the "fair market value" is whatever a dealer is willing to accept for the stamp...or car....or whatever the item in question may be.
The dealer in essence is 'setting' the market value at the moment he accepts an offer.
...my other few cents.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
...just a note;
seems we've gotten off the path of the main discussion here, so I'll not debate any further except on the main topic.
Don't want to step on any toes here.
Randy
Login to Like
this post
Auctions - Approvals
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
After Tim fixed it,I'm Ok with the rule.
One other small point: if anybody lists a $100.00
stamp that starts at a dollar, I'll genarally
bid on it. It's fair game.
Login to Like
this post
01:06:19pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Game on, man!
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Dear Carl,
You're a funny guy, but in all seriousness there are many times that you will see top material offered on SOR at way underpriced starting bids. Getting in early and possibly getting the item at or near the opening bid is the way to go.
All good thoughts,
Dan
Login to Like
this post
01:32:02pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
I know this is getting way off topic, but the auction lots that I love to watch are Lee's where she puts a couple of pounds (weight) of stamps together and lists it in the auction at min bid 1c. And then you just watch the bidding take off.
Tim.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Lee don't be fooled by Tim A's Mr nice guy routine. He's just suckin up in the hope that if he gets one of your boxes you'll throw in a few more juicy bits.
This is the real Tim A.
Tim2
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
LOL Tim2
cute pic
You never know what you might find in one of my boxes
Lee
Login to Like
this post
07:31:28pm
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
PS. Tim2, the above image needs to have an Australian flag.
Tim1.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Dear Tim 1 ,Tim 2& Lee,
You are all bringing to the fore the real underlying purpose of our club, and indeed our hobby itself-TO HAVE FUN!
Sometimes we get caught up in seriousness, costs,semantic issues and lose sight of what you are reminding us all about. We're here to enjoy the hobby & each other. Guys, you rock.
In appreciation,
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Tim A, can you ever forgive me. I mixed up your pic with one of big Dave Teislers [never seen him look so good]
Tim2
(Message edited by greenmouse on September 22, 2010)
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
Dear Patches-not a ghost-a WIZARD!!!
(They can take all kinds of shapes you know)
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
re: Ten hour Auction extension rule on late bids
i'm aghast that Tim's aghost
all the time i thought he was saying ROO, it was really BOO
Login to Like
this post