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Latin America/All : Mexico: On fake overprints

 

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Woodstock

15 Feb 2011
03:35:04pm
From all appearances and checks, this stamp is Scott Mexico #451 with a catalog value of $200. Unfortunately, there is a note that counterfeits abound. Also, I do not collect Mexico.

So, what would you do? Pay the price to have it authenticated? Throw it in a box of "dupes" and let it go? List it in an auction with a big question mark?

Thanks for any and all input.
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mexico.jpg
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Bulldog
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15 Feb 2011
05:05:15pm
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Bob, this offers you a chance to do some real detective work. APS, for one, has a great research library. You could see if they have any publications that give much more detail on how to identify Mexico forgeries and have a go at it. If you have the time and inclination this can not only be fun, but a great learning experience.

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Parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

15 Feb 2011
06:50:23pm
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

I recieved 441, 449, 450 & 452 in a large lot I bought. I am having the same dilemma. I have had them for a few years. I don't think I will have them expertized because the chances of them being authentic are slim. Eventually, I think I may list them as is probable counterfeits with a starting price of a dollar. I figure even if they are counterfeit they would make a good reference copy for a specialist and would be worth at least a dollar.

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"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

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Rhinelander
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Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society

15 Feb 2011
10:12:21pm
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

We may need a better scan, but it kind of looks as if the overprint is on top of the cancellation(?) -- In which case it is a pretty obvious fake.

Arno

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Hjulsing
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16 Feb 2011
02:53:16am
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Next to the question, whether it is a fake or not, also look at the overall quality of the stamp. There are several perfs missing at the top and bottom, which can depreciate the value considerably. If it were a $2000 value stamp, yes by all means have it authenticated but I am not sure about this one.

Anyway still an interesting quest, good luck.
Harry

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Michael78651

16 Feb 2011
11:55:48pm
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

I agree with Arno. The overprint might be on top of the cancel. Should be easy to tell for certain with a magnifying glass.

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Rhinelander
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17 Feb 2011
01:01:34pm
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Harry also has a good point -- if authentic, it still would no be a $200 value stamps, but maybe $5. It would have considerable value, though, for comparison and authentication. A good example are the two sets of Berlin overprints from the 1940s. Just cut a damaged, low value, but authentic, overprinted stamp from these issues diagonally across, and you have a nice template for matching and identifying the scores of dubious overprints that exist. I am not familiar with this Mexican issue, but the same approach might work here as well.

With a computer and scanning software you do not even have to cut a physical stamp in half, but can superimpose the image of a low value authentic overprint and see if the size and details match up. Before sending anything off for authentication, you should certainly do such simple common sense checks. I have used this technique for Egyptian pyramid stamps overprinted Soudan, of which there also exist plenty of fakes (mostly on already used stamps with Egyptian (!) cancels).

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Khj
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17 Feb 2011
10:57:03pm
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

The definitive English-language work on the fake Villa/GCM overprints is by George Linn. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy. I believe the copyright has already expired, so there should be one on the internet somewhere.

If I remember correctly, there are 3 known types of fake Villa/GCM overprints. Yours does not look like the most common of the three. However, I do not know what the other 2 less common fakes look like. I can tell you that the overprint doesn't look too much like the genuine overprint (lines much too thick in certain areas).

Another important point. Only a few of these denominations are known to exist in genuine used condition. I have not kept up with the philatelic literature in the past few years, but as far as I know, the 4c stamp is not known to exist in used condition. Therefore, if your stamp has a genuine overprint (which I don't think it does), the minor flaws would not affect its value significantly -- my opinion.


(Message edited by khj on February 17, 2011)

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Woodstock

18 Feb 2011
08:09:19am
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Thanks Khj.

I have been looking at George Linn's book, which is available as a Google Book, and it would appear that you are right about it not being one of the most common of the fakes. Unfortunately, I found Linn's book lacking in any definitive information on the other two.

I would definitely agree that the thickness of the overprint makes this stamp suspect. It is too bad that there isn't a clearer cancel, because, as Linn points out, this is sometimes a dead giveaway as to fakery.

What I have come away with from George Linn's book is that it is better not to place this one in any collection. Considering that I am trying to dispose of my Mexican holdings, this should not be much of a problem.

Thanks to all for the interesting discussion.

bob.jpg

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Khj
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18 Feb 2011
03:12:31pm
re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Yes, I think it is wise to keep it separate from your main Mexico collection (or at least clearly notate on the album page that the stamp is questionable).

When I go through a collection and start seeing fake/questionable/altered stamps that are not notated, it makes the whole collection suspect and the amount I am willing to pay for the collection drops pretty significantly.

Just my opinion.

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Author/Postings
Woodstock

15 Feb 2011
03:35:04pm

From all appearances and checks, this stamp is Scott Mexico #451 with a catalog value of $200. Unfortunately, there is a note that counterfeits abound. Also, I do not collect Mexico.

So, what would you do? Pay the price to have it authenticated? Throw it in a box of "dupes" and let it go? List it in an auction with a big question mark?

Thanks for any and all input.
bob.jpg

mexico.jpg

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Bulldog

15 Feb 2011
05:05:15pm

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Bob, this offers you a chance to do some real detective work. APS, for one, has a great research library. You could see if they have any publications that give much more detail on how to identify Mexico forgeries and have a go at it. If you have the time and inclination this can not only be fun, but a great learning experience.

Like
Login to Like
this post

N/A

Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
15 Feb 2011
06:50:23pm

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

I recieved 441, 449, 450 & 452 in a large lot I bought. I am having the same dilemma. I have had them for a few years. I don't think I will have them expertized because the chances of them being authentic are slim. Eventually, I think I may list them as is probable counterfeits with a starting price of a dollar. I figure even if they are counterfeit they would make a good reference copy for a specialist and would be worth at least a dollar.

Like
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"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
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Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
15 Feb 2011
10:12:21pm

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

We may need a better scan, but it kind of looks as if the overprint is on top of the cancellation(?) -- In which case it is a pretty obvious fake.

Arno

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Hjulsing

16 Feb 2011
02:53:16am

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Next to the question, whether it is a fake or not, also look at the overall quality of the stamp. There are several perfs missing at the top and bottom, which can depreciate the value considerably. If it were a $2000 value stamp, yes by all means have it authenticated but I am not sure about this one.

Anyway still an interesting quest, good luck.
Harry

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Michael78651

16 Feb 2011
11:55:48pm

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

I agree with Arno. The overprint might be on top of the cancel. Should be easy to tell for certain with a magnifying glass.

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Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
17 Feb 2011
01:01:34pm

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Harry also has a good point -- if authentic, it still would no be a $200 value stamps, but maybe $5. It would have considerable value, though, for comparison and authentication. A good example are the two sets of Berlin overprints from the 1940s. Just cut a damaged, low value, but authentic, overprinted stamp from these issues diagonally across, and you have a nice template for matching and identifying the scores of dubious overprints that exist. I am not familiar with this Mexican issue, but the same approach might work here as well.

With a computer and scanning software you do not even have to cut a physical stamp in half, but can superimpose the image of a low value authentic overprint and see if the size and details match up. Before sending anything off for authentication, you should certainly do such simple common sense checks. I have used this technique for Egyptian pyramid stamps overprinted Soudan, of which there also exist plenty of fakes (mostly on already used stamps with Egyptian (!) cancels).

Like
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this post
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Khj

17 Feb 2011
10:57:03pm

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

The definitive English-language work on the fake Villa/GCM overprints is by George Linn. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy. I believe the copyright has already expired, so there should be one on the internet somewhere.

If I remember correctly, there are 3 known types of fake Villa/GCM overprints. Yours does not look like the most common of the three. However, I do not know what the other 2 less common fakes look like. I can tell you that the overprint doesn't look too much like the genuine overprint (lines much too thick in certain areas).

Another important point. Only a few of these denominations are known to exist in genuine used condition. I have not kept up with the philatelic literature in the past few years, but as far as I know, the 4c stamp is not known to exist in used condition. Therefore, if your stamp has a genuine overprint (which I don't think it does), the minor flaws would not affect its value significantly -- my opinion.


(Message edited by khj on February 17, 2011)

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Woodstock

18 Feb 2011
08:09:19am

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Thanks Khj.

I have been looking at George Linn's book, which is available as a Google Book, and it would appear that you are right about it not being one of the most common of the fakes. Unfortunately, I found Linn's book lacking in any definitive information on the other two.

I would definitely agree that the thickness of the overprint makes this stamp suspect. It is too bad that there isn't a clearer cancel, because, as Linn points out, this is sometimes a dead giveaway as to fakery.

What I have come away with from George Linn's book is that it is better not to place this one in any collection. Considering that I am trying to dispose of my Mexican holdings, this should not be much of a problem.

Thanks to all for the interesting discussion.

bob.jpg

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Khj

18 Feb 2011
03:12:31pm

re: Mexico: On fake overprints

Yes, I think it is wise to keep it separate from your main Mexico collection (or at least clearly notate on the album page that the stamp is questionable).

When I go through a collection and start seeing fake/questionable/altered stamps that are not notated, it makes the whole collection suspect and the amount I am willing to pay for the collection drops pretty significantly.

Just my opinion.

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this post
        

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