Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I know that Tonkin (North Vietnam) was ruled by the Chinese prior to the Sino-French war of August 1884 - April 1885, but since Hong Kong was a British Crown Colony at that time, it seems unlikely that Hong Kong stamps would be in use in Tonkin. Perhaps it was a case of someone from Hong Kong getting away with using a Hong Kong rather than a Chinese stamps? I am out of my depth here. Can someone offer any advice or information? I am developing a "History of Vietnam" collection, and this stamp would seem to fit, somehow.
Bob
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Hongkong stamps were used at British POs in several Chinese cities, the so called Treaty Ports. However, there was no British PO at Haiphong/Tonkin. The cancel is of French and not British origin.
There are many possible explanations how a Hongkong stamp could legitimately receive a foreign postmark. For instance, the stamp may come from a letter posted at sea, i.e., a Paquebot cover. For illustration only, here a British Paquebot cover with Italian postmark.
It is a very nice stamp with a beautiful cancel, Bob. I believe it fits nicely in a 'History of Vietnam' collection even if we probably will not be able to explain with certainty the reason for the cancel being there. Covers talk, stamps only whisper.
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Thank you, Rhinelander. That seems like a reasonable explanation. My Vietnam collection focuses on the colonial/military history of Cochin-China, Annam, and Tonkin, which we know today as Vietnam. I am a Vietnam War veteran and very interested in the causes of the war, which if you take the broad view date back to the earliest French missionaries who first visited Indochina in the 1700s. The stamp which is the source of this discussion could certainly be considered collateral to my collection, since Haiphong was the target of major American attacks in the 1970s.
Bob
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Bob,
This stamp is an excellent example of a French Mail Boat Cancellation as explained in Chapter 56 of "The Philatelic and Postal History of HONG KONG and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by Colonel F. W. Webb. Although not rare, it is a beautiful strike of the "Type Z" marking as illustrated on page 360. The French established a number of ship routes between their colonies and neighboring ports and countries carrying passengers and mail. A British passenger boarding at Hong Kong could pass the time in route writing a letter applying a Hong Kong stamp and mailing it on board ship. By agreement, the letter would be handed over and cancelled at the first port of arrival, in this case, Haiphong, Tonkin. Similarly, an Indo-China stamped letter mailed by a Vietnamese passenger on board ship going the other way would be cancelled with a Hong Kong cancel upon arrival in the port of Hong Kong.
Whenever you see a stamp of one country cancelled by another country, think packet boat mail as the most logical explanation. This was the most common form of moving people and mail long distances in those days.
Gary
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Thank you both for your explanations. The folks at rec.collecting.stamps.discuss agree with the paquebot identification.
Bob
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Linus wrote:
"This stamp is an excellent example of a French Mail Boat Cancellation as explained in Chapter 56 of "The Philatelic and Postal History of HONG KONG and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by Colonel F. W. Webb. Although not rare, it is a beautiful strike of the "Type Z" marking as illustrated on page 360."
I though I might show a fine example of this cancellation. It isn't mine by the way, just a reference I keep. I know this is a very late response but might be useful for future reference:
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Anybody know why I can't see the images on the OP's post and the next one?
Or should I post this query in the 'techie' topic?
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I missed this entire post; nice cancel, Bob. If you ever want to unload it ... 
I think the original images from 2009 have either been taken off the server here, or if linked to another website, are no longer up there.
Peter
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Well at least my image serves a purpose then!
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Can someone please explain to me how a Haiphong, Tonkin cancellation might have ended up on what appears to be a Hong Kong #44 violet on red paper.
I know that Tonkin (North Vietnam) was ruled by the Chinese prior to the Sino-French war of August 1884 - April 1885, but since Hong Kong was a British Crown Colony at that time, it seems unlikely that Hong Kong stamps would be in use in Tonkin. Perhaps it was a case of someone from Hong Kong getting away with using a Hong Kong rather than a Chinese stamps? I am out of my depth here. Can someone offer any advice or information? I am developing a "History of Vietnam" collection, and this stamp would seem to fit, somehow.
Bob
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this post
re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
Hongkong stamps were used at British POs in several Chinese cities, the so called Treaty Ports. However, there was no British PO at Haiphong/Tonkin. The cancel is of French and not British origin.
There are many possible explanations how a Hongkong stamp could legitimately receive a foreign postmark. For instance, the stamp may come from a letter posted at sea, i.e., a Paquebot cover. For illustration only, here a British Paquebot cover with Italian postmark.
It is a very nice stamp with a beautiful cancel, Bob. I believe it fits nicely in a 'History of Vietnam' collection even if we probably will not be able to explain with certainty the reason for the cancel being there. Covers talk, stamps only whisper.
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re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
Thank you, Rhinelander. That seems like a reasonable explanation. My Vietnam collection focuses on the colonial/military history of Cochin-China, Annam, and Tonkin, which we know today as Vietnam. I am a Vietnam War veteran and very interested in the causes of the war, which if you take the broad view date back to the earliest French missionaries who first visited Indochina in the 1700s. The stamp which is the source of this discussion could certainly be considered collateral to my collection, since Haiphong was the target of major American attacks in the 1970s.
Bob
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re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
Bob,
This stamp is an excellent example of a French Mail Boat Cancellation as explained in Chapter 56 of "The Philatelic and Postal History of HONG KONG and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by Colonel F. W. Webb. Although not rare, it is a beautiful strike of the "Type Z" marking as illustrated on page 360. The French established a number of ship routes between their colonies and neighboring ports and countries carrying passengers and mail. A British passenger boarding at Hong Kong could pass the time in route writing a letter applying a Hong Kong stamp and mailing it on board ship. By agreement, the letter would be handed over and cancelled at the first port of arrival, in this case, Haiphong, Tonkin. Similarly, an Indo-China stamped letter mailed by a Vietnamese passenger on board ship going the other way would be cancelled with a Hong Kong cancel upon arrival in the port of Hong Kong.
Whenever you see a stamp of one country cancelled by another country, think packet boat mail as the most logical explanation. This was the most common form of moving people and mail long distances in those days.
Gary
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re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
Thank you both for your explanations. The folks at rec.collecting.stamps.discuss agree with the paquebot identification.
Bob
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re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
Linus wrote:
"This stamp is an excellent example of a French Mail Boat Cancellation as explained in Chapter 56 of "The Philatelic and Postal History of HONG KONG and the Treaty Ports of China and Japan" by Colonel F. W. Webb. Although not rare, it is a beautiful strike of the "Type Z" marking as illustrated on page 360."
I though I might show a fine example of this cancellation. It isn't mine by the way, just a reference I keep. I know this is a very late response but might be useful for future reference:
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re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
Anybody know why I can't see the images on the OP's post and the next one?
Or should I post this query in the 'techie' topic?
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01:27:15pm
re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
I missed this entire post; nice cancel, Bob. If you ever want to unload it ...
I think the original images from 2009 have either been taken off the server here, or if linked to another website, are no longer up there.
Peter
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re: Tonkin cancellation on Hong Kong stamp
Well at least my image serves a purpose then!
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