Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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I'd go with the "watermark fluid" and tray. Cheap like borscht, and works just fine. I've used Ronsinol-type lighter fluid for decades, although I'm sure that (given the great interest that large corporations have in maintaining our health) that some are quite dangerous. And I admit that I have never been a great "watermarker". My bottom line is this:
With good ventilation (Stovetop ventilator? Open window with a breeze?) and a few drops of lighter fluid, just enough to moisten the stamp and create translucency, you'll be able to see watermarks just fine with a minimal health risk. Eating one Big Mac a year is probably more dangerous.
Bob
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Hi Susan,
I am a bit of a watermark enthusiast in that I love tracking them down. I have a Morley Bright and it works quite well on most stamps. I have found some of my best results using the scanner on my computer. Scan the stamp in fairly high resolution in gray scale with a black backing, then adjust the contrast to bring out the darker areas (the watermark). I know this sounds weird, but sometimes I find you have to look through the watermark in order to see it. In other words you have to sometimes get your focal length beyond the stamp to really be able to see the watermark.
Regards ... Tim.
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After reading this discussion, I searched online to find out what a Morley Bright was, and found this interesting article:
http://www.hobbizine.com/page0023.html
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Dear Walden,
Thanks for the reference link.
Dan C.
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Okay, my 2 cents here, Susan;
Like our man Bob, I also use lighter fluid at times...mostly for US stamps, since the affordable watermark detectors on the market don't seem to do as well for them.
On the other hand, I also have a Morley-Bright Insta-tector which I use for everything else, and most of the time it works quite well.
(by the way - M-B also makes a "roll-a-tector" which works the same)
I also have used a Signa-scope watermark detector which worked very well, but can be cost-prohibitive.
I guess what I'm saying is - try as many ways as you can (including Tim's scanning trick!) and decide which way(s) works best for you;
everyone's eyes are different!
Best of luck!!
Randy
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01:42:55pm
First Susan, the only stupid question is the one you are unwilling to ask.
Now there are stupid people who ask the same question over and over, but I doubt you need worry about that.
As for detecting watermarks, I use common Rubbing Alcohol which is quite inexpensive, easily obtained and slightly less combustable than lighter fluid.
It is also very toxic so ventilation is a necessity. Sometimes I turn on the exhaust fan in the bathroom which is close to my stamp room so that fumes, which rise and spread out are discharged from the house.
I also have a black tray, but prefer using a black polished stone that was once the base of a lamp. A few drops on the stone slab, (About 8" square)then set the stamp on the drops and usually make sure both sides are wet and the watermarks, if they are there, appear. The fluid quickly dissapates into the atmosphere, preferably out a window. The stamp can be set off to the side of the same slab and if necessary the next stamop can be examined.
One great advantage is that often when the stamp is placed facedown on the intense black stone the watermark is visible without using the fuid.
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Thanks all for the help. I will try these way and see which one works best for me.
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11:39:20pm
I have dozens of Hindenburgs to go through - I still have some watermark fluid left but not sure I've got enough to get me through them all. I'm not exactly sure I understand the scanner method although I'm good with photoshop & have a lot of other photo editing software if someone could explain it a bit more (I read the post earlier but not sure I understand it). If I use rubbing alcohol does it work the same as the regular watermark fluid with the black tray? I don't want to risk damaging my Hindenburgs so I want a good safe method.
Kelly
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11:28:14am
While I have no direct evidence or experience with it, the use of rubbing alcohol on stamps bothers me.
From Wikipedia:
"Isopropyl rubbing alcohol USP/B.P. contains 68–99% of isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) by volume, the remainder consisting of water, with or without color additives, suitable stabilizers, and perfume oils."
It's the additives that bother me. I don't think I want any oil or perfumes in contact with my stamps.
One thing I do have experience with, however, is the use of regular watermark fluid on photogravure stamps --- don't! Lighter fluid and regular watermark fluid can make the ink on photogravure stamps run. For this reason I have always used 'Supersafe Watermark Fluid'. It's more expensive, but I use a couple of drops with an eyedropper, rather than fill the tray with liquid.
Here is a note about the use of lighter fluid from "Ask Phil":
"Some collectors will tell you that lighter fluid is a good watermark fluid. While lighter fluid will work for this purpose, it is not safe for you and possibly not safe for your stamps. Lighter fluid is highly toxic to breathe, and also is highly flammable. There also is reason to believe that lighter fluid (a petroleum-based product) may leave an oily residue on stamp paper, which would be damaging to it."
Personally, I would tend to agree with this statement.
Roy
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11:31:13am
@Kelly
The Hindenburgs should be straightforward. I haven't done any in quite some time, but if I remember correctly, there are only two watermarks -- the lozenges and the swastika. The lozenges are usually very deep and immediately noticeable as soon as you place the stamp against a dark background.
Roy
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11:46:05am
Hi Roy -
Thanks - yes, you are right about the watermarks on the Hindenburgs. The other one that I keep putting off working on is Bavaria - the variety of watermarks on those can get depressing to me after a while because some of them are so subtle that even with my regular watermark fluid I've found they are not always easily identified.
Does CWS sell the Unisafe fluid that you mentioned? That's where I generally end up getting my things because as you know there aren't that many places around where I live to get things like that.
Any advice is greatly welcomed.
Kelly
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I know this is an old thread, but I'm new here. I see a couple of posts about using rubbing alcohol for a watermark detection fluid. I have never tried this, but I'd be very reluctant. Some brands are 70% alcohol. Some are 50% alcohol. The other 30-50% is WATER. Both the alcohol and the water are polar solvents, which means that they should BOTH dissolve the gum. Carbon tetrachloride, benzene, Ronsinol, and the commercial detectors are all non-polar solvents, which means they will wet the stamp without reacting with the gum. They will just ruin the ink of modern stamps, as pointed out.
I have had some success with using a scanner, but not in the manor described here. Instead of using a black background, I used the transparency mode, essentially shining a bright light through the stamp. Doing this, I can definitely see thin lines and curves that are parts of the letters USPS. But if I didn't already know they were there, I'd have missed them. I'll have to give the method suggested in the thread a try.
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"Carbon tetrachloride, benzene"
Not so sure one can purchase these chemicals anymore. They are extremely dangerous to one's health (cancer).
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Sorry. I have not learned how to do the pretty quote box yet. Yes Carbon Tetrachloride is banned. Benzene is also hard to come by. I mentioned them because older references list them as the preferred method. I'm a chemist, so I still have access to both, but I wouldn't use them either.
A note about the rubbing alcohol I forgot to say earlier... It's toxic to drink (and tastes REAL REAL bad 
) but is safe to touch. It's the stuff you get on your arm before that nice painful shot. The fumes are not too bad either, but it's not something you'd want to smell all day.
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This is a great topic question as I have thought about this as well. I've never tested a single stamp for a watermark....but then again, I consider myself a novice hobbyist.
Anyway, the discussion so far has focused on stamps off cover.
I actually am more interested in learning about watermarks on stamps that are on cover. What safe, reliable method(s) are available for testing stamps on cover for watermarks?
Your suggestions are appreciated.
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I have been using lighter fluid and a small black plastic
tray that came from a catfish fry we had at the church.
If memory serves, there was originally a brownie in the
tray. I put the stamp in question face down in the black
plastic tray, put a few drops of lighter fluid on the
stamp, and voilah ! if a watermark in present, it is easy
to see. I have been winding my way through a massive amount
of US pre 1900 for the last 30+ years. Never had a problem
with the lighter fluid. Pull the stamp out of the tray and
lay it on a paper towel. It will dry in about two minutes.
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One thing Roy. You said colors won't run. Well If they do Run. Catch them quickly so they can't get away!
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Hi everyone;
I've used watermark fluid for years and never had a stamps ink run at all. When I ran out of watermark fluid, I also used lighter fluid, but some British stamps of type A131 (QEII heads) I had the cancellation run quite badly, and some others from the fifties also. The stamps looked terrible after drying off. So the stamp inks were fine but the canceling ink ran badly!! 
Ken Tall Pines
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The watermark fluid from the pre-1980s would cause the ink on photogravure stamps to run. The "safe" watermark fluids came out after that.
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03:40:15am
Years ago, when the world was young, and my ability to manipulate multiple delicate components simultaneously was unlimited I bought a Morley-Bright watermark detector to be able to
check stamps on certain covers for otherwise concealed watermarks.
It consisted of a small plastic sheet, some black ink and a rectangular piece of glass.
The procedure was to place the plastic sheet over the stamp, place a drop of ink was on the sheet
and spread a thin film of the ink over where the stamp, beneath the sheet, was and use the glass
as a scraper over the inked area, something that today would have resulted in an ungodly mess
probably all over the cover, my fingers and possibly on my eyelids from my tendency to scratch any undetermined itch without thinking about what itched or what was in my hands.
The plastic sheet could be lifted and placed on a small black block and the now exposed watermark
could be studied. Finally the sheet could be cleaned for further use.
However, at the time, it worked and worked quite well. I was able to check the image, duplicate the
watermark on the plastic sheetlet and best of all study it in detail. In particular I discovered several
very interesting Wildings where, at some time, the Dandy roll, which is a tiny design attached to the
screen that thins the paper during production and creates the watermark image was repaired. Since
the replacement crown is extremely small, occasionally a different design was used.
But the world would be a better place if I avoided trying that in this century.
The Morley Bright Detector
As I said, it worked, and worked well.
,
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06:40:04pm
Ok, Here is the new stamp collector stupid question of the day. What is a good or best product for detecting stamp watermarks. Been looking at lots of websites, some say Morley Bright Instatecor others say fluid and a tray. Then where would I buy them at or would they be listed under stamp collecting accessories. Figure time to ask people who know mpre then me. Thanks Susan
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
I'd go with the "watermark fluid" and tray. Cheap like borscht, and works just fine. I've used Ronsinol-type lighter fluid for decades, although I'm sure that (given the great interest that large corporations have in maintaining our health) that some are quite dangerous. And I admit that I have never been a great "watermarker". My bottom line is this:
With good ventilation (Stovetop ventilator? Open window with a breeze?) and a few drops of lighter fluid, just enough to moisten the stamp and create translucency, you'll be able to see watermarks just fine with a minimal health risk. Eating one Big Mac a year is probably more dangerous.
Bob
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this post
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Hi Susan,
I am a bit of a watermark enthusiast in that I love tracking them down. I have a Morley Bright and it works quite well on most stamps. I have found some of my best results using the scanner on my computer. Scan the stamp in fairly high resolution in gray scale with a black backing, then adjust the contrast to bring out the darker areas (the watermark). I know this sounds weird, but sometimes I find you have to look through the watermark in order to see it. In other words you have to sometimes get your focal length beyond the stamp to really be able to see the watermark.
Regards ... Tim.
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this post
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
After reading this discussion, I searched online to find out what a Morley Bright was, and found this interesting article:
http://www.hobbizine.com/page0023.html
1 Member
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Dear Walden,
Thanks for the reference link.
Dan C.
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Okay, my 2 cents here, Susan;
Like our man Bob, I also use lighter fluid at times...mostly for US stamps, since the affordable watermark detectors on the market don't seem to do as well for them.
On the other hand, I also have a Morley-Bright Insta-tector which I use for everything else, and most of the time it works quite well.
(by the way - M-B also makes a "roll-a-tector" which works the same)
I also have used a Signa-scope watermark detector which worked very well, but can be cost-prohibitive.
I guess what I'm saying is - try as many ways as you can (including Tim's scanning trick!) and decide which way(s) works best for you;
everyone's eyes are different!
Best of luck!!
Randy
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
30 Jul 2011
01:42:55pm
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
First Susan, the only stupid question is the one you are unwilling to ask.
Now there are stupid people who ask the same question over and over, but I doubt you need worry about that.
As for detecting watermarks, I use common Rubbing Alcohol which is quite inexpensive, easily obtained and slightly less combustable than lighter fluid.
It is also very toxic so ventilation is a necessity. Sometimes I turn on the exhaust fan in the bathroom which is close to my stamp room so that fumes, which rise and spread out are discharged from the house.
I also have a black tray, but prefer using a black polished stone that was once the base of a lamp. A few drops on the stone slab, (About 8" square)then set the stamp on the drops and usually make sure both sides are wet and the watermarks, if they are there, appear. The fluid quickly dissapates into the atmosphere, preferably out a window. The stamp can be set off to the side of the same slab and if necessary the next stamop can be examined.
One great advantage is that often when the stamp is placed facedown on the intense black stone the watermark is visible without using the fuid.
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03:35:56pm
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Thanks all for the help. I will try these way and see which one works best for me.
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28 May 2012
11:39:20pm
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
I have dozens of Hindenburgs to go through - I still have some watermark fluid left but not sure I've got enough to get me through them all. I'm not exactly sure I understand the scanner method although I'm good with photoshop & have a lot of other photo editing software if someone could explain it a bit more (I read the post earlier but not sure I understand it). If I use rubbing alcohol does it work the same as the regular watermark fluid with the black tray? I don't want to risk damaging my Hindenburgs so I want a good safe method.
Kelly
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
29 May 2012
11:28:14am
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
While I have no direct evidence or experience with it, the use of rubbing alcohol on stamps bothers me.
From Wikipedia:
"Isopropyl rubbing alcohol USP/B.P. contains 68–99% of isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) by volume, the remainder consisting of water, with or without color additives, suitable stabilizers, and perfume oils."
It's the additives that bother me. I don't think I want any oil or perfumes in contact with my stamps.
One thing I do have experience with, however, is the use of regular watermark fluid on photogravure stamps --- don't! Lighter fluid and regular watermark fluid can make the ink on photogravure stamps run. For this reason I have always used 'Supersafe Watermark Fluid'. It's more expensive, but I use a couple of drops with an eyedropper, rather than fill the tray with liquid.
Here is a note about the use of lighter fluid from "Ask Phil":
"Some collectors will tell you that lighter fluid is a good watermark fluid. While lighter fluid will work for this purpose, it is not safe for you and possibly not safe for your stamps. Lighter fluid is highly toxic to breathe, and also is highly flammable. There also is reason to believe that lighter fluid (a petroleum-based product) may leave an oily residue on stamp paper, which would be damaging to it."
Personally, I would tend to agree with this statement.
Roy
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
29 May 2012
11:31:13am
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
@Kelly
The Hindenburgs should be straightforward. I haven't done any in quite some time, but if I remember correctly, there are only two watermarks -- the lozenges and the swastika. The lozenges are usually very deep and immediately noticeable as soon as you place the stamp against a dark background.
Roy
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
29 May 2012
11:46:05am
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Hi Roy -
Thanks - yes, you are right about the watermarks on the Hindenburgs. The other one that I keep putting off working on is Bavaria - the variety of watermarks on those can get depressing to me after a while because some of them are so subtle that even with my regular watermark fluid I've found they are not always easily identified.
Does CWS sell the Unisafe fluid that you mentioned? That's where I generally end up getting my things because as you know there aren't that many places around where I live to get things like that.
Any advice is greatly welcomed.
Kelly
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
I know this is an old thread, but I'm new here. I see a couple of posts about using rubbing alcohol for a watermark detection fluid. I have never tried this, but I'd be very reluctant. Some brands are 70% alcohol. Some are 50% alcohol. The other 30-50% is WATER. Both the alcohol and the water are polar solvents, which means that they should BOTH dissolve the gum. Carbon tetrachloride, benzene, Ronsinol, and the commercial detectors are all non-polar solvents, which means they will wet the stamp without reacting with the gum. They will just ruin the ink of modern stamps, as pointed out.
I have had some success with using a scanner, but not in the manor described here. Instead of using a black background, I used the transparency mode, essentially shining a bright light through the stamp. Doing this, I can definitely see thin lines and curves that are parts of the letters USPS. But if I didn't already know they were there, I'd have missed them. I'll have to give the method suggested in the thread a try.
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03:05:18pm
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
"Carbon tetrachloride, benzene"
Not so sure one can purchase these chemicals anymore. They are extremely dangerous to one's health (cancer).
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Sorry. I have not learned how to do the pretty quote box yet. Yes Carbon Tetrachloride is banned. Benzene is also hard to come by. I mentioned them because older references list them as the preferred method. I'm a chemist, so I still have access to both, but I wouldn't use them either.
A note about the rubbing alcohol I forgot to say earlier... It's toxic to drink (and tastes REAL REAL bad ) but is safe to touch. It's the stuff you get on your arm before that nice painful shot. The fumes are not too bad either, but it's not something you'd want to smell all day.
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07:32:41pm
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
This is a great topic question as I have thought about this as well. I've never tested a single stamp for a watermark....but then again, I consider myself a novice hobbyist.
Anyway, the discussion so far has focused on stamps off cover.
I actually am more interested in learning about watermarks on stamps that are on cover. What safe, reliable method(s) are available for testing stamps on cover for watermarks?
Your suggestions are appreciated.
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likes this post.
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
I have been using lighter fluid and a small black plastic
tray that came from a catfish fry we had at the church.
If memory serves, there was originally a brownie in the
tray. I put the stamp in question face down in the black
plastic tray, put a few drops of lighter fluid on the
stamp, and voilah ! if a watermark in present, it is easy
to see. I have been winding my way through a massive amount
of US pre 1900 for the last 30+ years. Never had a problem
with the lighter fluid. Pull the stamp out of the tray and
lay it on a paper towel. It will dry in about two minutes.
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
One thing Roy. You said colors won't run. Well If they do Run. Catch them quickly so they can't get away!
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re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Hi everyone;
I've used watermark fluid for years and never had a stamps ink run at all. When I ran out of watermark fluid, I also used lighter fluid, but some British stamps of type A131 (QEII heads) I had the cancellation run quite badly, and some others from the fifties also. The stamps looked terrible after drying off. So the stamp inks were fine but the canceling ink ran badly!!
Ken Tall Pines
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02:40:23am
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
The watermark fluid from the pre-1980s would cause the ink on photogravure stamps to run. The "safe" watermark fluids came out after that.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
26 Jun 2014
03:40:15am
re: Stamp Watermark Detector
Years ago, when the world was young, and my ability to manipulate multiple delicate components simultaneously was unlimited I bought a Morley-Bright watermark detector to be able to
check stamps on certain covers for otherwise concealed watermarks.
It consisted of a small plastic sheet, some black ink and a rectangular piece of glass.
The procedure was to place the plastic sheet over the stamp, place a drop of ink was on the sheet
and spread a thin film of the ink over where the stamp, beneath the sheet, was and use the glass
as a scraper over the inked area, something that today would have resulted in an ungodly mess
probably all over the cover, my fingers and possibly on my eyelids from my tendency to scratch any undetermined itch without thinking about what itched or what was in my hands.
The plastic sheet could be lifted and placed on a small black block and the now exposed watermark
could be studied. Finally the sheet could be cleaned for further use.
However, at the time, it worked and worked quite well. I was able to check the image, duplicate the
watermark on the plastic sheetlet and best of all study it in detail. In particular I discovered several
very interesting Wildings where, at some time, the Dandy roll, which is a tiny design attached to the
screen that thins the paper during production and creates the watermark image was repaired. Since
the replacement crown is extremely small, occasionally a different design was used.
But the world would be a better place if I avoided trying that in this century.
The Morley Bright Detector
As I said, it worked, and worked well.
,
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