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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

 

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Rgnpcs
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18 Feb 2011
07:54:57pm
Is it legal for a stamp auction company to buy one of your lots for themselves, and later place the same item in another auction?
Richaard
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Michael78651

18 Feb 2011
11:25:57pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Depends on their auction rules and rules of consignment. One has to read the terms of consigning lots before signing on the dotted line.

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Bobstamp
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19 Feb 2011
01:35:44am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I'm trying to think of some moral ambiguity in the scenario that Richaard presents, and I just can't come up with anything. What can be wrong with this picture?:

• Collector consigns stamps to auction company after, presumably, reading the company's consignment rules.

• Auction company bids on stamps and wins.

• Collector receives proceeds from sale of stamps, less auction company's fee.

• Auction company consigns stamps to another auction.

Who is hurt? Who loses money? I don't understand the problem. Am I missing something?

Bob

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Rgnpcs
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19 Feb 2011
02:14:20am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

My lot sold in the auction at a very low price, way lower than I was selling it for. I did not protect it by bidding myself, and auction house (would not recommend them ever)has no minimum price.
Item was a rare picture post card from 1882.
It was my own fault for not watching.
I will be curious to see what it sells for in current auction.
Richaard

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Joshtanski
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19 Feb 2011
09:44:37am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Bob,

Suppose stamp has has two bids with $50 reserve - my bid $100, auction house bids $90. I would win the stamp at $100 instead of $50. I would have a huge problem with that.

Josh

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Vincy4fish98

19 Feb 2011
10:51:04am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

It sounds like the auction company acted in their own interests instead of the client who consigned the lot to them. In this case they acted like a market maker to manipulate the price realized/sold and then turned around and flipped it for a profit. Happens in the stock market quite a bit. Always 2 sides to an transaction. Sorry this happened to you Richaard.

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Bobstamp
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19 Feb 2011
10:52:28am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

If you bid the amount you are willing to pay for the lot, and win, well, you win. No one forces anyone to bid more than is prudent for them.

The reverse is true, also: A consignor who doesn't read the fine print is not doing himself/herself a favour. If I knowingly consign stamps to an auction company which starts all bidding at a minimum, say $10, and my stamps sell for $10, how is that the auction company's fault?

Bob

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Rhinelander
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19 Feb 2011
02:55:59pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I, too, think that this is highly problematic, but I do not know how it could be avoided. If the auction firm is not buying outright as in your case, they may use a straw man and you will never learn.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

19 Feb 2011
08:36:51pm

Auctions
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I see no problem with this either. Richard puts the lot up at low price and it sells for low price. That the auction company was the only one to even think it worth a low bid tells you that it either wasn't worth what you thought it was or you placed it in an auction that wasn't aimed at the right constituency. Much of selling is finding the right place where the most likely buyers are to be found.

Unless there's other unstated things happening, there's nothing wrong or illegal or even unethical here.

David

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Rgnpcs
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19 Feb 2011
08:48:23pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I am very sour on all auction houses in philately, whereas in the past there have been some very good postcard auctions. I think that philately has produced too many greedy dealers, who do not give a @#%&! about the seller. I could give names, and actual incidents where the auction house has just about stolen an item, and had that happen just a few months go. When I related the price realized on a lot to one of my on-line buddies, they were shocked, and said that they would have paid much more. I thought that I still had a picture of the lot, but it is gone, as I wanted to forget the transaction. If anyone knows what the KOTAR overprints are, then you will know.
Stick with SOR auction and you will not get hurt.
Richaard

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Bobstamp
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19 Feb 2011
10:15:59pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

My experience is just the opposite. I have dealt with three auction houses in British Columbia (All Nations Stamp & Coin, Weeda, and FvH Stamps), and have never felt in the slightest that they did not have my best interests at heart. Of course, I am not a stamp dealer, which means that perhaps my goals are different than a stamp dealer's goals: I think it's wonderful to have a hobby that actually returns money to you after you've had the pleasure of being caretaker for beautiful and/or interesting and/or unique collectibles. In other words, I don't consider my collection to be an investment, so I won't ever be disappointed if I can't sell it for "what it's worth".

Bob

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Youpiao
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20 Feb 2011
12:17:19am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

For that matter, I have hardly any stamps for which I paid "what it's worth." I wouldn't expect their value to suddenly be realized just because I want to sell them. :-)

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Cdj1122
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20 Feb 2011
01:24:25am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

The stamp was put in the auction and I assume advertised along with other lots. It attracted few bids and the auction company decided to bid on it to its own account.
What would have been the alternative ?
It could have gone to the next lowest bidder and Richaard would have received less.
If the next lowest bidder was a dealer he, or she, might well have done the same thing and if Richaard noticed it in another auction he would be even more depressed by how things turned out.
The auction company could have advised Richard that he should have a higher minimum to protect himself, and then it probably would have attracted less interest.
One other alternative, the auctioneer might have informed Richaard that the item might get more action in a different auction more attuned to collectors of say, .... nineteenth century postcards.
I am not sure driving away business is a fruitful avenue for the auctioneer.
.
By the way, Richaard mentions not having bid on his own item himself. I thought that that was considered shill bidding ?
I have no idea if it is, or not, but that sounds a bit tainted in itself.
Is it allowed ?
Allowed but frowned upon ?

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
01:35:19am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

That is shilling, as is getting collaborators to bid as well. It is against the law to place a bid on an auction lot if one is the owner and/or consignor of the item or when the bidder has no intention of purchasing the lot and the purpose of the bid is to increase the final selling price of the lot or spur a bidding war to obtain a price higher than would have ordinarily been bid for the item.

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Bobstamp
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20 Feb 2011
01:47:33pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Cdj1122 said, "If the next lowest bidder was a dealer he, or she, might well have done the same thing and if Richaard noticed it in another auction he would be even more depressed by how things turned out."

In fact, the auctions I occasionally attend here in Vancouver always are attended by dealers looking for a good deal. Sometimes there are more dealers than collectors.

In a democracy based on capitalism, anyone (except for owners of lots and/or their shills) can legally bid on any auction lot, including the auction company, which in legal terms is an individual, is it not?

Bob

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
01:58:22pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Auction companies often bid on lots in their own auctions as they take proxy bids from phone and mail-order customers. There is nothing wrong with that.

Dealers attend auctions looking for items that they know their customers want or to find things to augment their sales stock. There's nothing wrong with that. I do that all the time.

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Joshtanski
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20 Feb 2011
03:35:34pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Here's an interesting article on "sham" or "chandelier" bidding, where an auction house bids on its own behalf on its auctions (not the same as bidding on behalf of a customer).

link to article

Josh

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Rgnpcs
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20 Feb 2011
04:12:29pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Very interesting article.
Thanks for submitting.
Richaard

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Rgnpcs
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20 Feb 2011
04:31:31pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

How do you protect a lot, if no reserve price is allowed?
Auction house that I have been referring to would only list the catalog value, no reserve. no opening bid, so if a stamp is cataloged, or estimated at $25,000.00, you might be able to buy it for a dime, providing the auction hose did not buy it for themselves for a quarter.
Richaard

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
10:43:35pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

When you are in discussions with the auction house, if you don't like their terms (and you need to ask them questions such as that) then don't give them your material. There are plenty of other auction houses out there. You should also make sure that they regularly handle the material that you want to sell through them. If you have a first day cover collection, and they deal mostly in British Commonwealth of the 19th Century, they probably are not the place to take you collection.

Research the auction houses and ask them a ton of questions and let them know what your minimum requirements are (write them all down so you don't forget). Ask each one you contact the same questions so you have the same point of reference for them all. Then, don't agree to anything right away. Give yourself some time (a few days or weeks) to digest what you've been told by the auction houses you contacted. If you have additional questions, contact them all and ask them. Then wait a few more days and think about what you've been told.

Do more research if you need to. Then, when you are ready, make your selection. If you can't make a selection yet, narrow your list down to two or three, and contact them again. Don't reveal what other companies have said to you. You don't want a response of, "Yeah we can do that." You want to know what they will do as their normal way of doing business, not what they can do. Can do means telling you what you want to hear.

If you want, contact the finalists and ask them to give you a best and final offer (sounds like contract negotiations, doesn't it?) and give them a time frame to respond by. Remember, you'll be signing a contract with the company you select. If it isn't a win-win for both you and the company, then you will not be happy with the results. If you go into this with a win for you and lose for them attitude, you will lose as well. You want to sell your stamps at the best possible price, and they want the same, because they get the best commission possible when that happens. You just have to figure out which company gives you the best value for what you want to do.

Of course, one can take the lazy way out and just drop off the collection to any company, but don't cry when the results are unsatisfactory.

(Message edited by michael78651 on February 20, 2011)

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
10:47:34pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Quote: How do you protect a lot, if no reserve price is allowed?
Auction house that I have been referring to would only list the catalog value, no reserve. no opening bid, so if a stamp is cataloged, or estimated at $25,000.00, you might be able to buy it for a dime, providing the auction hose did not buy it for themselves for a quarter.
Richaard


Richaard, seems to me that this is an auction house you don't want to do business with. Do your homework like I outlined above. Find the company that meets your needs the best.

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Stampme

22 Feb 2011
09:03:41pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I'm wondering if it is illegal for a consignor of lots to bid on their own lots IF that is mentioned in the auction house terms? I have read that in auction house terms before. The bidder is alerted, IF the terms are read, that is. Seems disreputable but it may not be illegal. It may be illegal in one country and legal in another.
Always read the terms.
Bruce

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

23 Feb 2011
06:50:49am

Auctions
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

if the terms allow it, then it is legal. it is utterly unethical, and I can't imagine any house allowing it nor can i imagine ever participating in such an auction. Shilling is shilling

Bruce, can you identify any houses where this is allowed?

David

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Cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

24 Feb 2011
10:34:47am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

"Research, we doan need no stinkin' research", its easier to complain later.

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Cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

24 Feb 2011
10:45:52am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

A bid is defined as an offer to buy at a specific price.
A sham bid is placed precisely not to buy, but placed to bump the final price higher.
As such it is fraud unless in some strange alternate auction world such bidding is specificly disclosed. And what sane person would enter into an auction where that kind of bid rigging is allowed and apparently condoned.
.
And anyone who would waste time placing anything but the cheapest floor sweepings in an auction that did not allow a minimum opening bid needs a good reality check.

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Stampme

24 Feb 2011
08:33:59pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

David,
I had one in mind, but went back to check and they have removed the sentence from their terms which stated that a seller could bid on his item.
A year ago I had posted a question about such a practice on another group site and was informed that it was common in Europe, with a few houses mentioned by various members. Didn't commit them to memory because I always read every paragraph in the terms section, etc. and bid accordingly, meaning after a bid or two, I drop out unless the item is WAY below its value to me, then I would bid a little more.
Shill bidding online is impossible (I would think so anyway) to detect.
Bruce

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Michael78651

24 Feb 2011
11:39:07pm
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Online shill bidding can be detected, but it is very difficult to do so. Several years ago, there was a seller on Ebay who had a couple of friends bid on his lots to push up the final price. At that time, the usernames of the bidders were totally visible. An innocent bidder noticed that on this seller's items, there were always the same two bidders, regardless on what type of item it was. He filed a complaint. Ebay investigated and confirmed the scam.

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Cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

25 Feb 2011
11:29:20am
re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Michael, was that the guy who used a fancy French name and claimed to be a Bishop of something ?
I have to dig out a file I have on stamp cheats over the years.
.
Supposedly eBay has a sophisticated program that can detect a bidder who continually enters a bid on someone's lots but never manages to make a purchase. If that is found it is possible that the bids are not intended to do any more than bump the price. Another tell is that these bids are never close to the ending time when a shill bidder might get stuck as the high bid.
.
Knowing that search engines can locate and provide a link to the most obscure string of letters and words from some meandering quote of Thucydides or Shakespeare to the most recent hypocrisy of one of our politicians, in a matter on milliseconds I have no doubt that despite eBay's huge volume of lots, bids and closed sales with an appropriate algorithm that kind of monitoring is very possible and likely.
.
It would all come down to the setting of a threshold of events that trigger a closer inspection.

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Rgnpcs

18 Feb 2011
07:54:57pm

Is it legal for a stamp auction company to buy one of your lots for themselves, and later place the same item in another auction?
Richaard

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Michael78651

18 Feb 2011
11:25:57pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Depends on their auction rules and rules of consignment. One has to read the terms of consigning lots before signing on the dotted line.

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Bobstamp

19 Feb 2011
01:35:44am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I'm trying to think of some moral ambiguity in the scenario that Richaard presents, and I just can't come up with anything. What can be wrong with this picture?:

• Collector consigns stamps to auction company after, presumably, reading the company's consignment rules.

• Auction company bids on stamps and wins.

• Collector receives proceeds from sale of stamps, less auction company's fee.

• Auction company consigns stamps to another auction.

Who is hurt? Who loses money? I don't understand the problem. Am I missing something?

Bob

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Rgnpcs

19 Feb 2011
02:14:20am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

My lot sold in the auction at a very low price, way lower than I was selling it for. I did not protect it by bidding myself, and auction house (would not recommend them ever)has no minimum price.
Item was a rare picture post card from 1882.
It was my own fault for not watching.
I will be curious to see what it sells for in current auction.
Richaard

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Joshtanski

19 Feb 2011
09:44:37am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Bob,

Suppose stamp has has two bids with $50 reserve - my bid $100, auction house bids $90. I would win the stamp at $100 instead of $50. I would have a huge problem with that.

Josh

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Vincy4fish98

19 Feb 2011
10:51:04am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

It sounds like the auction company acted in their own interests instead of the client who consigned the lot to them. In this case they acted like a market maker to manipulate the price realized/sold and then turned around and flipped it for a profit. Happens in the stock market quite a bit. Always 2 sides to an transaction. Sorry this happened to you Richaard.

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Bobstamp

19 Feb 2011
10:52:28am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

If you bid the amount you are willing to pay for the lot, and win, well, you win. No one forces anyone to bid more than is prudent for them.

The reverse is true, also: A consignor who doesn't read the fine print is not doing himself/herself a favour. If I knowingly consign stamps to an auction company which starts all bidding at a minimum, say $10, and my stamps sell for $10, how is that the auction company's fault?

Bob

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Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
19 Feb 2011
02:55:59pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I, too, think that this is highly problematic, but I do not know how it could be avoided. If the auction firm is not buying outright as in your case, they may use a straw man and you will never learn.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
19 Feb 2011
08:36:51pm

Auctions

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I see no problem with this either. Richard puts the lot up at low price and it sells for low price. That the auction company was the only one to even think it worth a low bid tells you that it either wasn't worth what you thought it was or you placed it in an auction that wasn't aimed at the right constituency. Much of selling is finding the right place where the most likely buyers are to be found.

Unless there's other unstated things happening, there's nothing wrong or illegal or even unethical here.

David

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Rgnpcs

19 Feb 2011
08:48:23pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I am very sour on all auction houses in philately, whereas in the past there have been some very good postcard auctions. I think that philately has produced too many greedy dealers, who do not give a @#%&! about the seller. I could give names, and actual incidents where the auction house has just about stolen an item, and had that happen just a few months go. When I related the price realized on a lot to one of my on-line buddies, they were shocked, and said that they would have paid much more. I thought that I still had a picture of the lot, but it is gone, as I wanted to forget the transaction. If anyone knows what the KOTAR overprints are, then you will know.
Stick with SOR auction and you will not get hurt.
Richaard

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Bobstamp

19 Feb 2011
10:15:59pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

My experience is just the opposite. I have dealt with three auction houses in British Columbia (All Nations Stamp & Coin, Weeda, and FvH Stamps), and have never felt in the slightest that they did not have my best interests at heart. Of course, I am not a stamp dealer, which means that perhaps my goals are different than a stamp dealer's goals: I think it's wonderful to have a hobby that actually returns money to you after you've had the pleasure of being caretaker for beautiful and/or interesting and/or unique collectibles. In other words, I don't consider my collection to be an investment, so I won't ever be disappointed if I can't sell it for "what it's worth".

Bob

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Youpiao

20 Feb 2011
12:17:19am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

For that matter, I have hardly any stamps for which I paid "what it's worth." I wouldn't expect their value to suddenly be realized just because I want to sell them. :-)

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Feb 2011
01:24:25am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

The stamp was put in the auction and I assume advertised along with other lots. It attracted few bids and the auction company decided to bid on it to its own account.
What would have been the alternative ?
It could have gone to the next lowest bidder and Richaard would have received less.
If the next lowest bidder was a dealer he, or she, might well have done the same thing and if Richaard noticed it in another auction he would be even more depressed by how things turned out.
The auction company could have advised Richard that he should have a higher minimum to protect himself, and then it probably would have attracted less interest.
One other alternative, the auctioneer might have informed Richaard that the item might get more action in a different auction more attuned to collectors of say, .... nineteenth century postcards.
I am not sure driving away business is a fruitful avenue for the auctioneer.
.
By the way, Richaard mentions not having bid on his own item himself. I thought that that was considered shill bidding ?
I have no idea if it is, or not, but that sounds a bit tainted in itself.
Is it allowed ?
Allowed but frowned upon ?

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
01:35:19am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

That is shilling, as is getting collaborators to bid as well. It is against the law to place a bid on an auction lot if one is the owner and/or consignor of the item or when the bidder has no intention of purchasing the lot and the purpose of the bid is to increase the final selling price of the lot or spur a bidding war to obtain a price higher than would have ordinarily been bid for the item.

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Bobstamp

20 Feb 2011
01:47:33pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Cdj1122 said, "If the next lowest bidder was a dealer he, or she, might well have done the same thing and if Richaard noticed it in another auction he would be even more depressed by how things turned out."

In fact, the auctions I occasionally attend here in Vancouver always are attended by dealers looking for a good deal. Sometimes there are more dealers than collectors.

In a democracy based on capitalism, anyone (except for owners of lots and/or their shills) can legally bid on any auction lot, including the auction company, which in legal terms is an individual, is it not?

Bob

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
01:58:22pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Auction companies often bid on lots in their own auctions as they take proxy bids from phone and mail-order customers. There is nothing wrong with that.

Dealers attend auctions looking for items that they know their customers want or to find things to augment their sales stock. There's nothing wrong with that. I do that all the time.

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Joshtanski

20 Feb 2011
03:35:34pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Here's an interesting article on "sham" or "chandelier" bidding, where an auction house bids on its own behalf on its auctions (not the same as bidding on behalf of a customer).

link to article

Josh

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Rgnpcs

20 Feb 2011
04:12:29pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Very interesting article.
Thanks for submitting.
Richaard

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Rgnpcs

20 Feb 2011
04:31:31pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

How do you protect a lot, if no reserve price is allowed?
Auction house that I have been referring to would only list the catalog value, no reserve. no opening bid, so if a stamp is cataloged, or estimated at $25,000.00, you might be able to buy it for a dime, providing the auction hose did not buy it for themselves for a quarter.
Richaard

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
10:43:35pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

When you are in discussions with the auction house, if you don't like their terms (and you need to ask them questions such as that) then don't give them your material. There are plenty of other auction houses out there. You should also make sure that they regularly handle the material that you want to sell through them. If you have a first day cover collection, and they deal mostly in British Commonwealth of the 19th Century, they probably are not the place to take you collection.

Research the auction houses and ask them a ton of questions and let them know what your minimum requirements are (write them all down so you don't forget). Ask each one you contact the same questions so you have the same point of reference for them all. Then, don't agree to anything right away. Give yourself some time (a few days or weeks) to digest what you've been told by the auction houses you contacted. If you have additional questions, contact them all and ask them. Then wait a few more days and think about what you've been told.

Do more research if you need to. Then, when you are ready, make your selection. If you can't make a selection yet, narrow your list down to two or three, and contact them again. Don't reveal what other companies have said to you. You don't want a response of, "Yeah we can do that." You want to know what they will do as their normal way of doing business, not what they can do. Can do means telling you what you want to hear.

If you want, contact the finalists and ask them to give you a best and final offer (sounds like contract negotiations, doesn't it?) and give them a time frame to respond by. Remember, you'll be signing a contract with the company you select. If it isn't a win-win for both you and the company, then you will not be happy with the results. If you go into this with a win for you and lose for them attitude, you will lose as well. You want to sell your stamps at the best possible price, and they want the same, because they get the best commission possible when that happens. You just have to figure out which company gives you the best value for what you want to do.

Of course, one can take the lazy way out and just drop off the collection to any company, but don't cry when the results are unsatisfactory.

(Message edited by michael78651 on February 20, 2011)

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Michael78651

20 Feb 2011
10:47:34pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Quote: How do you protect a lot, if no reserve price is allowed?
Auction house that I have been referring to would only list the catalog value, no reserve. no opening bid, so if a stamp is cataloged, or estimated at $25,000.00, you might be able to buy it for a dime, providing the auction hose did not buy it for themselves for a quarter.
Richaard


Richaard, seems to me that this is an auction house you don't want to do business with. Do your homework like I outlined above. Find the company that meets your needs the best.

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Stampme

22 Feb 2011
09:03:41pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

I'm wondering if it is illegal for a consignor of lots to bid on their own lots IF that is mentioned in the auction house terms? I have read that in auction house terms before. The bidder is alerted, IF the terms are read, that is. Seems disreputable but it may not be illegal. It may be illegal in one country and legal in another.
Always read the terms.
Bruce

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
23 Feb 2011
06:50:49am

Auctions

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

if the terms allow it, then it is legal. it is utterly unethical, and I can't imagine any house allowing it nor can i imagine ever participating in such an auction. Shilling is shilling

Bruce, can you identify any houses where this is allowed?

David

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24 Feb 2011
10:34:47am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

"Research, we doan need no stinkin' research", its easier to complain later.

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
24 Feb 2011
10:45:52am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

A bid is defined as an offer to buy at a specific price.
A sham bid is placed precisely not to buy, but placed to bump the final price higher.
As such it is fraud unless in some strange alternate auction world such bidding is specificly disclosed. And what sane person would enter into an auction where that kind of bid rigging is allowed and apparently condoned.
.
And anyone who would waste time placing anything but the cheapest floor sweepings in an auction that did not allow a minimum opening bid needs a good reality check.

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Stampme

24 Feb 2011
08:33:59pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

David,
I had one in mind, but went back to check and they have removed the sentence from their terms which stated that a seller could bid on his item.
A year ago I had posted a question about such a practice on another group site and was informed that it was common in Europe, with a few houses mentioned by various members. Didn't commit them to memory because I always read every paragraph in the terms section, etc. and bid accordingly, meaning after a bid or two, I drop out unless the item is WAY below its value to me, then I would bid a little more.
Shill bidding online is impossible (I would think so anyway) to detect.
Bruce

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Michael78651

24 Feb 2011
11:39:07pm

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Online shill bidding can be detected, but it is very difficult to do so. Several years ago, there was a seller on Ebay who had a couple of friends bid on his lots to push up the final price. At that time, the usernames of the bidders were totally visible. An innocent bidder noticed that on this seller's items, there were always the same two bidders, regardless on what type of item it was. He filed a complaint. Ebay investigated and confirmed the scam.

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Feb 2011
11:29:20am

re: Ethical for auctioneer to bid on consigned lots?

Michael, was that the guy who used a fancy French name and claimed to be a Bishop of something ?
I have to dig out a file I have on stamp cheats over the years.
.
Supposedly eBay has a sophisticated program that can detect a bidder who continually enters a bid on someone's lots but never manages to make a purchase. If that is found it is possible that the bids are not intended to do any more than bump the price. Another tell is that these bids are never close to the ending time when a shill bidder might get stuck as the high bid.
.
Knowing that search engines can locate and provide a link to the most obscure string of letters and words from some meandering quote of Thucydides or Shakespeare to the most recent hypocrisy of one of our politicians, in a matter on milliseconds I have no doubt that despite eBay's huge volume of lots, bids and closed sales with an appropriate algorithm that kind of monitoring is very possible and likely.
.
It would all come down to the setting of a threshold of events that trigger a closer inspection.

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