Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It seems to me that it would be interesting to compare production numbers with the destruct numbers, to arrive at an actual "availability" number.
Then again, some people might find watching wood warp to be more interesting.
Bob
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I suppose there are figures available "somewhere" that could help determine real life availability numbers of stamps on the market or in dealer/collector hands( stamp retension percentages).
Not as boreing as one would think. Knowing this info can configure the supply-demand side of priceing. Not all stamps are priced according to movement in the market place.
USPS doesnt need a count on what was destroyed.They just record the sold stamps.Deduct that from how many printed,the rest are history( returned for destruction).
You may not be able to get into files showing those destoyed stamps, but under the Freedom of Information Act, you can get the figures of how many were sold. From there you can do the math. Total printed,minus total sold,eguals how many were destroyed,and the amount sold is the the stamps that are possibly out there.
The tough part is a guessing game of trying to figure out how many were used on common mail,commercially used,in the hands of dealers,collectors,and speculators.These figures would give an estimate of how many mint are available,how many used are available,how many possible covers,and types of covers are available,etc. ,etc..
All of this helps the seller give an educated guess ,and a fair answer to the buyer, as to "Why is this stamp is priced so high".(or so low).
Bob, watching wood warp takes just about as much time and effort as the search for this information you seek. AND,, wood warp watching is very interesting,to a specialist looking for a way to prevent such an occurance.Studying how and why it happens and trying to figure a way to halt it. Think of that,next time you are putting wood preservative on you sun deck.Or installing hardwood floors in your home.
BTW, did you know that the "paper" used in makeing stamps comes from wood ?
TOM
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Tom: Quite a dissertation. Thanks for your thoughts and the "yuk yuks."
Obviously, you could see where I was going with this. A recent article in the Linn's newsletter about how to add more stamps to a collection got me thinking. They mentioned collecting stamps from mail, which made me laugh out loud. In the past 3 months I have gotten exactly three envelopes/cards with a stamp attached. So, the thought was that there must be a lot of stamps being destroyed. Of course, this could just be another piece of fuzzy logic, eh?
Bob
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Bob,
yes,I have often wondered where all those stamps went. 100 MILLION PRINTED, and if I'm lucky,I get ONE on a piece of mail in a years time. One wonders why they print so many when 99 % of mail doesnt use stamps.
The only mail I get with accual stamps used on it,are from stamp collectors,dealers,and my tax collector ,and church bulletin.
The tax notice once a year,the church once a month ,but from collectors and dealers pretty often. If I were not a stamp collector,it would mean only 13 letters with stamps a year. Not much incentive for someone to start collecting stamps by means of incoming mail. Times sure have changed in the last 60 years.I can remember every letter,notice,or advertisement we recieved had some sort of stamp on them.
Now that rates change every year, it only gives us that one year(maximum) to get that stamp in used,or on cover/proper time frame. And even less time for those issued later in any given year. Those stamps just issue on Feb. 24, can only be used(proper postal rate) for 2 1/2 months.So they will be harder to find.
TOM
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But are any of the stamps commemorative stamps? I havent seen a commen in years. Everything is a coil.
Kathy
(Message edited by Kadydee on April 14, 2009)
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Kathy,
yep, most are coil( I dont complain,cause that's my specialty) and on all commercial mail. Coms are generally on collector mail, and letters and post cards from dealers or cards notifying about up comimng shows.
My church,like others,use mostly coil stamps,that are most likely donated or purchased as discount postage.
Keep in mind, from a pane or booklet of stamps,there are very few,if any, unwanted or unusable stamps (for the collector) but on a roll of coil stamps,even a 100 stamp roll,there are way too many extra stamps.
Even a a roll of 100 you only get a max of 3 plate strips (3,5,or 7).figureing 3 PNC7, a single and a pair,, (24 stamps), you get stuck with 76 stamps. With the larger rolls it esculates.Even being able to buy from USPS, here in U.S. , a strip of 25 from larger rolls, you can only get a PNC7,S,PR, thats 10,and you have 15 extras to get rid of.Take these figures times the three printers versions,and from 2 to 4 different formats,,it adds up to a pile of paid for extra stamps.We gotta use them up somehow,so donateing to churches,clubs,organizations,or even local government offices not only eleviates our problem,but can generate a tax deduction,, and possibly lower costs to other units that may in the end lower taxes,or end prices of products to the general public.
None of this helps the used stamp collector,none of this creates more use of stamps on our mail, but "seems" to be the right thing to do.
TOM
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So, boys and girls, let's review:
If the large mailers and groups don't use the commems, and individuals don't get stamps as a normal matter applied to mail at the post office, and stamp collectors are a diminishing group of people, and my Aunt Sadie only sends me a birthday and Christmas card, then why the heck are the money losing postal authorities continuing their insane printing of such high numbers of each of the insane number of commemoratives spewed forth every year.
Whew...that was a mouthful, and NO, I do not expect an answer to this!
Bob
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Bob,
your statements and question are retorical.
All governments spend more than they take in.The U.S. has just gone another couple trillion dollars in debt with the stimulus deals for failing businesses.They are always in bebt, spending more than what comes in to the coffers.
Now, USPS being a government entity, why should they be expected to operate in any other way.Going broke seems the norm for governments, and related entities.
Stamp collecting sort of belongs in with government practices. We spend more than what the value will ever be. Never getting back close to what was spent out. Doesnt that sound like the policies of government ??????
Is stamp collect a government controled hobby???
But, please do not give USPS any ideas.They already want to go to a 5 day delivery, discontinue all vending machines,cut employees,shut post offices, combine distribution centers,and a few things not known to the general public.
TOM
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Correct! They were "rhetorical," weren't they?
However, as I see it, perhaps it would be a good idea if some of us "non-experts" started giving advice or "ideas" to those people. It's for sure there isn't a lot of thinking going on at the USPS.
Bob
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Thoughts about USPS/stamps.
They arent looseing money on stamps themselves.The cost of makeing them is small,compared to the face price.Even if they only sold half of the stamps produced,they still make a tidy profit.
If it were a matter of loss of revenue ,in the printing,distibution,and low sales of stamps, they would stop.It is easier to print the meter stickers right there at the PO, as needed, no extras to log,package,and return for destruction.
You want 20 stamps to take home,,a strip of pre printed meters in the denomination you desire can be printed right there at the PO. No waste,and costs are negledgeable. Costs,,,, they already have the machine,labor is no concern,the postal employee is being paid whether they sort mail, sit around or print meter labels.
Now this isnt helping the stamp collector,mint or used stamp collector.But it will open up a whole new theater of colectables.And you can ask for one of each denomination, save mint,or stick on a letter to yourself and have a complete set of on cover useage,or removed and collected as used.
We will,and must, look to the future of the hobby.Things have changed over the years and many different avenues of collecting have been traversed, the ways of collecting have been altered to accomodate these changes.
I can say for sure,in my passion for coil stamps,that they definetly have changed. From pairs,line pairs,to multiple plate numbers,and now one plate number for all,and the infamous non-soakable delema, multiple printers,multiple formats, and the recent com size coils.
USPS isnt looseing money on stamps.They are looseing it on services rendered,and the advent of the computer,and electronic transfers of funds.
If you want to write to USPS with suggestions,DO NOT MENTION STAMPS. Instead tell them to only buy new cars and trucks as though the costs were coming out of their personal paycheck, and take a commercial flight to those meetings in washington,instead of a private jet.I'm sure there are many items that are costting more than the printing and issueing of U.S. postage stamps.
TOM
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Labor IS the single largest factor in the USPS budget. I seem to recall it accounts for 74% of their operating expenses, but that number could be way off. Stamp costs are negligible.
They are NOT losing money on computers and other electronic aspects; what these are doing is reducing the number of services they provide for the fixed overhead they have. That is, every 42c first class bill you don't pay reduces the revenue stream and increases the unit cost to deliver the remaining mail.
The big problem for USPS is that they must deliver to every household, and most of what they deliver are either cards from Aunt Sylvia or catalogues; the former is 42c, but requires lots of processing because someone had to retype the address because the UPC readers can't read her writing; the catalogues are easy to process, but they deliver little revenue and take up lots of room. Had they competed effectively with UPS and FedX and the others, they could be delivering $5 packages instead of 42c letters; the infrastructure was mostly there; the will to do it and to really be a service agency was not. In effect, they ceded all the profitable packages to the private carriers and kept all the chump change. Thnink about it: they could have had every single carrier pick up 2nd day and next day mail as part of their service. And UPS and FedX charge 5X what USPS does for the same service, so an overnight big box from USPS is $20, say, but $100 from FedX. Gone......
David
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David,
you are absolutely right.
I agree whole heartedly.
The only thing I could add is that the LABOR factor is not the wages,which are competitive to other such industries, but the benefits. They ,employees,enjoy one of the most outrageous benefit packages ever compiled.
The average Joe is lucky to get any hospitalization plans from their employers. A maximum of 5000 life insurance,only a few paid holidays,and must work until retiremnt age(usually 65). Not so with USPS, where 150,000 is minimum life insurance,top of the line hospital,so many paid holidays I cant keep track,and a retirement after 20 years, not mater what their age.
Last years rate increae was geared toward complying with benifit coverage costs.
So we cannot say labor costs,without the mention of benefits.Otherwise it would infer that the labor cost was WAGES paid. Their wages arent that outrageous. A construction worker has higher wages. Not as good benefits as postal. But we all cant have our cake and eat it too.
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Tom, and YOU are right, too. When we mention benefits, we should also say that the Republican Congress under Bush passed a law in which all Department of Defense benefits earned by individuals who later were employed by USPS were assumed by the USPS. This, of course, was fabulous for the DoD's balance sheet but not so good for the USPS's.
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07:03:18pm
What with all of the data being published every day, I was wondering if the USPS ever publishes information on how many stamps are recalled from service and are destroyed.
It seems to me that it would be interesting to compare production numbers with the destruct numbers, to arrive at an actual "availability" number.
Then again, some people might find watching wood warp to be more interesting.
Bob
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07:33:07am
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
I suppose there are figures available "somewhere" that could help determine real life availability numbers of stamps on the market or in dealer/collector hands( stamp retension percentages).
Not as boreing as one would think. Knowing this info can configure the supply-demand side of priceing. Not all stamps are priced according to movement in the market place.
USPS doesnt need a count on what was destroyed.They just record the sold stamps.Deduct that from how many printed,the rest are history( returned for destruction).
You may not be able to get into files showing those destoyed stamps, but under the Freedom of Information Act, you can get the figures of how many were sold. From there you can do the math. Total printed,minus total sold,eguals how many were destroyed,and the amount sold is the the stamps that are possibly out there.
The tough part is a guessing game of trying to figure out how many were used on common mail,commercially used,in the hands of dealers,collectors,and speculators.These figures would give an estimate of how many mint are available,how many used are available,how many possible covers,and types of covers are available,etc. ,etc..
All of this helps the seller give an educated guess ,and a fair answer to the buyer, as to "Why is this stamp is priced so high".(or so low).
Bob, watching wood warp takes just about as much time and effort as the search for this information you seek. AND,, wood warp watching is very interesting,to a specialist looking for a way to prevent such an occurance.Studying how and why it happens and trying to figure a way to halt it. Think of that,next time you are putting wood preservative on you sun deck.Or installing hardwood floors in your home.
BTW, did you know that the "paper" used in makeing stamps comes from wood ?
TOM
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01:20:29pm
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Tom: Quite a dissertation. Thanks for your thoughts and the "yuk yuks."
Obviously, you could see where I was going with this. A recent article in the Linn's newsletter about how to add more stamps to a collection got me thinking. They mentioned collecting stamps from mail, which made me laugh out loud. In the past 3 months I have gotten exactly three envelopes/cards with a stamp attached. So, the thought was that there must be a lot of stamps being destroyed. Of course, this could just be another piece of fuzzy logic, eh?
Bob
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11:47:15pm
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Bob,
yes,I have often wondered where all those stamps went. 100 MILLION PRINTED, and if I'm lucky,I get ONE on a piece of mail in a years time. One wonders why they print so many when 99 % of mail doesnt use stamps.
The only mail I get with accual stamps used on it,are from stamp collectors,dealers,and my tax collector ,and church bulletin.
The tax notice once a year,the church once a month ,but from collectors and dealers pretty often. If I were not a stamp collector,it would mean only 13 letters with stamps a year. Not much incentive for someone to start collecting stamps by means of incoming mail. Times sure have changed in the last 60 years.I can remember every letter,notice,or advertisement we recieved had some sort of stamp on them.
Now that rates change every year, it only gives us that one year(maximum) to get that stamp in used,or on cover/proper time frame. And even less time for those issued later in any given year. Those stamps just issue on Feb. 24, can only be used(proper postal rate) for 2 1/2 months.So they will be harder to find.
TOM
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03:20:39pm
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
But are any of the stamps commemorative stamps? I havent seen a commen in years. Everything is a coil.
Kathy
(Message edited by Kadydee on April 14, 2009)
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08:07:09am
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Kathy,
yep, most are coil( I dont complain,cause that's my specialty) and on all commercial mail. Coms are generally on collector mail, and letters and post cards from dealers or cards notifying about up comimng shows.
My church,like others,use mostly coil stamps,that are most likely donated or purchased as discount postage.
Keep in mind, from a pane or booklet of stamps,there are very few,if any, unwanted or unusable stamps (for the collector) but on a roll of coil stamps,even a 100 stamp roll,there are way too many extra stamps.
Even a a roll of 100 you only get a max of 3 plate strips (3,5,or 7).figureing 3 PNC7, a single and a pair,, (24 stamps), you get stuck with 76 stamps. With the larger rolls it esculates.Even being able to buy from USPS, here in U.S. , a strip of 25 from larger rolls, you can only get a PNC7,S,PR, thats 10,and you have 15 extras to get rid of.Take these figures times the three printers versions,and from 2 to 4 different formats,,it adds up to a pile of paid for extra stamps.We gotta use them up somehow,so donateing to churches,clubs,organizations,or even local government offices not only eleviates our problem,but can generate a tax deduction,, and possibly lower costs to other units that may in the end lower taxes,or end prices of products to the general public.
None of this helps the used stamp collector,none of this creates more use of stamps on our mail, but "seems" to be the right thing to do.
TOM
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01:03:28pm
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
So, boys and girls, let's review:
If the large mailers and groups don't use the commems, and individuals don't get stamps as a normal matter applied to mail at the post office, and stamp collectors are a diminishing group of people, and my Aunt Sadie only sends me a birthday and Christmas card, then why the heck are the money losing postal authorities continuing their insane printing of such high numbers of each of the insane number of commemoratives spewed forth every year.
Whew...that was a mouthful, and NO, I do not expect an answer to this!
Bob
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09:06:19pm
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Bob,
your statements and question are retorical.
All governments spend more than they take in.The U.S. has just gone another couple trillion dollars in debt with the stimulus deals for failing businesses.They are always in bebt, spending more than what comes in to the coffers.
Now, USPS being a government entity, why should they be expected to operate in any other way.Going broke seems the norm for governments, and related entities.
Stamp collecting sort of belongs in with government practices. We spend more than what the value will ever be. Never getting back close to what was spent out. Doesnt that sound like the policies of government ??????
Is stamp collect a government controled hobby???
But, please do not give USPS any ideas.They already want to go to a 5 day delivery, discontinue all vending machines,cut employees,shut post offices, combine distribution centers,and a few things not known to the general public.
TOM
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06:48:11am
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Correct! They were "rhetorical," weren't they?
However, as I see it, perhaps it would be a good idea if some of us "non-experts" started giving advice or "ideas" to those people. It's for sure there isn't a lot of thinking going on at the USPS.
Bob
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09:56:07am
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Thoughts about USPS/stamps.
They arent looseing money on stamps themselves.The cost of makeing them is small,compared to the face price.Even if they only sold half of the stamps produced,they still make a tidy profit.
If it were a matter of loss of revenue ,in the printing,distibution,and low sales of stamps, they would stop.It is easier to print the meter stickers right there at the PO, as needed, no extras to log,package,and return for destruction.
You want 20 stamps to take home,,a strip of pre printed meters in the denomination you desire can be printed right there at the PO. No waste,and costs are negledgeable. Costs,,,, they already have the machine,labor is no concern,the postal employee is being paid whether they sort mail, sit around or print meter labels.
Now this isnt helping the stamp collector,mint or used stamp collector.But it will open up a whole new theater of colectables.And you can ask for one of each denomination, save mint,or stick on a letter to yourself and have a complete set of on cover useage,or removed and collected as used.
We will,and must, look to the future of the hobby.Things have changed over the years and many different avenues of collecting have been traversed, the ways of collecting have been altered to accomodate these changes.
I can say for sure,in my passion for coil stamps,that they definetly have changed. From pairs,line pairs,to multiple plate numbers,and now one plate number for all,and the infamous non-soakable delema, multiple printers,multiple formats, and the recent com size coils.
USPS isnt looseing money on stamps.They are looseing it on services rendered,and the advent of the computer,and electronic transfers of funds.
If you want to write to USPS with suggestions,DO NOT MENTION STAMPS. Instead tell them to only buy new cars and trucks as though the costs were coming out of their personal paycheck, and take a commercial flight to those meetings in washington,instead of a private jet.I'm sure there are many items that are costting more than the printing and issueing of U.S. postage stamps.
TOM
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re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Labor IS the single largest factor in the USPS budget. I seem to recall it accounts for 74% of their operating expenses, but that number could be way off. Stamp costs are negligible.
They are NOT losing money on computers and other electronic aspects; what these are doing is reducing the number of services they provide for the fixed overhead they have. That is, every 42c first class bill you don't pay reduces the revenue stream and increases the unit cost to deliver the remaining mail.
The big problem for USPS is that they must deliver to every household, and most of what they deliver are either cards from Aunt Sylvia or catalogues; the former is 42c, but requires lots of processing because someone had to retype the address because the UPC readers can't read her writing; the catalogues are easy to process, but they deliver little revenue and take up lots of room. Had they competed effectively with UPS and FedX and the others, they could be delivering $5 packages instead of 42c letters; the infrastructure was mostly there; the will to do it and to really be a service agency was not. In effect, they ceded all the profitable packages to the private carriers and kept all the chump change. Thnink about it: they could have had every single carrier pick up 2nd day and next day mail as part of their service. And UPS and FedX charge 5X what USPS does for the same service, so an overnight big box from USPS is $20, say, but $100 from FedX. Gone......
David
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01:27:40am
re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
David,
you are absolutely right.
I agree whole heartedly.
The only thing I could add is that the LABOR factor is not the wages,which are competitive to other such industries, but the benefits. They ,employees,enjoy one of the most outrageous benefit packages ever compiled.
The average Joe is lucky to get any hospitalization plans from their employers. A maximum of 5000 life insurance,only a few paid holidays,and must work until retiremnt age(usually 65). Not so with USPS, where 150,000 is minimum life insurance,top of the line hospital,so many paid holidays I cant keep track,and a retirement after 20 years, not mater what their age.
Last years rate increae was geared toward complying with benifit coverage costs.
So we cannot say labor costs,without the mention of benefits.Otherwise it would infer that the labor cost was WAGES paid. Their wages arent that outrageous. A construction worker has higher wages. Not as good benefits as postal. But we all cant have our cake and eat it too.
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re: U.S. Stamp Data and USPS fiscal health
Tom, and YOU are right, too. When we mention benefits, we should also say that the Republican Congress under Bush passed a law in which all Department of Defense benefits earned by individuals who later were employed by USPS were assumed by the USPS. This, of course, was fabulous for the DoD's balance sheet but not so good for the USPS's.
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