Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Fred,
did a long explanation,but connection disrupted me and lost it,so heres a short version.
Serpentine refers to a snake,and for the die cut ,meaning a wavy line.
The other cuts are large die or imperf.
Large perfs -take a "U" and one inverted,connect the legs ,in a row, and it forms the large type die cut.
For examples-
Egret coil-
scott # 3829 - large die cut
scott # 3829A - small,or, serpientine die cut.
Most "other" (large) die cuts are perf 8 or 8.5, and serpentine are usually perf 9.8 or higher.
All self adheasives are die cut.
There are also a few that are imperf,,straight edges,that are a match to ones from a pane or booklet.No way to tell them apart as singles or used. But these too are called die cut.
TOM
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Many thanks, Tom. What´s next, canine, feline, bovine, porcine....?
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Why call it "die cut" if it only reaches the liner paper? I would say "kiss die cut" is more correct. In some instances self-adhesive stamps are die cut but then the liner paper is still stuck to the stamp and you can hardly tear it loose. Philatelic Services love to sell those die cut stamps!
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This "backing paper" thing (if that's what you call it) has been a major gripe of mine for some time.
If a booklet is the type that has stamps on both sides, then one would have to wait until the stamps were used on one side so that a neat cut could be made with the backing paper to remove a stamp for saving to an album.
If it is the type with stamps affixed to what is basically the cover, the collector better not try to tear one out unless all the surrounding stamps are gone because what you get is (in my experience) an imperfect mess. Many times it leaves the adhesive exposed in places, or leaves fibers overhanging the perfs, which looks messy at best in an album.
Thank you USPS.
Bob
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And thank you to most of the postal administrations of the world!
Not to be tedious, but we collectors really have to "get over" the fact that USPS, Canada Post, the Royal Mail, etc. really do not have the interests of collectors in mind. What we have is what we have, and it is we collectors who will have to change our mindset about what collecting means to us and indeed what we will collect. Postal administration will not be changing their operations for our benefit, because we simply don't matter to their bottom line.
I and a lot of other collectors have responded to self-adhesive stamps and indeed most recent issues by collecting only older material, of which there is plenty.
Bob
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I agree with Bob(mostly !).
If one collects "stamps" rather than "pretty designs on stamp-size paper", one collects what the post office produces for it's operational needs. If you treat stamps as a facet of postal history, pretty designs are pretty much irrelevant. With modern postal administrations the edges are forever getting blurred.
If you collect bus timetables, business cards,letterheads or other forms of ephemera you collect what existed to meet commercial requirements - so why should stamps be any different ?
I actually like the pretty designs as well but I tend to major on definitives as being more "proper" stamps, and on postmarks which portray stamp usage.
I disagree with Bob about not collecting "self-adhesives" as these now form the majority of normal, non-philatelic postal use. What you have to do is adapt your collecting methodology to fit the new circumstances rather than expect the post office to consider what you want.
I dare say that in 50 years time collectors will wonder what all the fuss was about - an acceptable methodology of collecting such material having evolved naturally.
Malcolm
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If I'm the Bob who Malcolm refers to, I didn't say collectors shouldn't collect self-adhesive stamps. I said that I and many collectors I know don't collect them, at least not on a regular basis.
The only modern stamps I collect are those which fit into my thematic collections stamps and covers related to the histories of the Second World War, the Vietnam War, and commercial aviation history.
Sometimes the self-adhesive versions cause real problems. In my last exhibit, I needed two mint copies of the cloud-type stamps issued by the U.S. in 2004. They were serpentine perfed (I believe that's the correct description) and couldn't be separated by cutting them apart. I ended up just removing them from the backing paper, sticking them on black paper squares, then mounting the squares. Any collecting value they had has been destroyed, but t least they look nice.
I've always believed that collectors should collect whatever they wish to collect. I don't happen to find many modern stamps very appealing, so I'm not personally concerned about the impact of self-adhesive stamps on the hobby. I wish they had never been invented, but it's pointless to dwell on their existence.
Bob
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Here's something to consider.
I was at the post office recently and (as is my norm)was scrounging through the wastebaskets looking for discarded envelopes with stamps. While this junket didn't bring any new jewels, I picked up 4 sheets of the backing paper from used booklets of the Christmas stamp.
So, Holmes, you might ask, "What can you do with that junk?" "Well, Watson, did you know that you can move those nasty little self adhesives onto the pristine backing material, and now trim away to your heart's content, leaving the specimen as close to mint as one might reasonably expect?
Hmmmm, elementary!
Bob (from Boston)
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The interesting thing is that Malcolm and the 2 Bobs have all found ways around the postal service changes: Malcolm sees it from a historical perspective; Bob I, collects what appeals to him and discards the rest, and Bob from Boston picks up the discards and makes mounts of them. I've come at in a similar way: USPS changes make it much easire for me to give up certain collecting areas in their entirety. Luckily, we see four well-adjusted adults behaving in a rational way.
But most of the complaints about the USPS (and probably Malcolm's Royal Mail) are founded on the terrible disappointment that a way of collecting is being changed (they'd say "destroyed"). This relates to the increasingly meaninglessness of coil plate numbers; the inability to collect off-paper used stamps; and the increasing frequency with which the USPS issues stuff that's hard to get, priced above face or sold only in gargantuan quantities, and not really intended for use.
In a way, many philatelists are like lovers spurned, where the objects of their devotions are taken away or changed. This happened before: consider Farley's follies and the plate blocks of 20 as two examples. In both cases, the USPOD changed its ways to accommodate the backlash from collectors. I suspect that this won't happen this time.
In a way, this is little different from the collector-inspired change from PNC3 to PNC5, where many collectors are left holding much diminished collections that are no longer the fashion.
I think that if the USPS had initially offered only PNC1s and started with SAs, all would be golden; it's the change that is hard for folks.
For me, I'm like you, Malcolm, I welcome the change, noting the new bar codes and other elements of automation, seeing it all as part of the tapestry of life. And I'm like you, Bob I, in that I collect what I want. And Bob from Boston, I admire your ability to recycle. Bob I even has a collection of recycled and reused envelopes.
Interesting talk. Thanks for keeping this one alive and engaging.
David
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06:23:35pm
O.K. so now my die-cut mystery's been solved and explained, please tell me how to tell what perfs are 'serpentine' and which are not.....and what do we call those perfs that are not serpentine?
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05:21:06am
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
Fred,
did a long explanation,but connection disrupted me and lost it,so heres a short version.
Serpentine refers to a snake,and for the die cut ,meaning a wavy line.
The other cuts are large die or imperf.
Large perfs -take a "U" and one inverted,connect the legs ,in a row, and it forms the large type die cut.
For examples-
Egret coil-
scott # 3829 - large die cut
scott # 3829A - small,or, serpientine die cut.
Most "other" (large) die cuts are perf 8 or 8.5, and serpentine are usually perf 9.8 or higher.
All self adheasives are die cut.
There are also a few that are imperf,,straight edges,that are a match to ones from a pane or booklet.No way to tell them apart as singles or used. But these too are called die cut.
TOM
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02:10:02am
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
Many thanks, Tom. What´s next, canine, feline, bovine, porcine....?
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02:41:41pm
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
Why call it "die cut" if it only reaches the liner paper? I would say "kiss die cut" is more correct. In some instances self-adhesive stamps are die cut but then the liner paper is still stuck to the stamp and you can hardly tear it loose. Philatelic Services love to sell those die cut stamps!
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09:20:56am
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
This "backing paper" thing (if that's what you call it) has been a major gripe of mine for some time.
If a booklet is the type that has stamps on both sides, then one would have to wait until the stamps were used on one side so that a neat cut could be made with the backing paper to remove a stamp for saving to an album.
If it is the type with stamps affixed to what is basically the cover, the collector better not try to tear one out unless all the surrounding stamps are gone because what you get is (in my experience) an imperfect mess. Many times it leaves the adhesive exposed in places, or leaves fibers overhanging the perfs, which looks messy at best in an album.
Thank you USPS.
Bob
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this post
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
And thank you to most of the postal administrations of the world!
Not to be tedious, but we collectors really have to "get over" the fact that USPS, Canada Post, the Royal Mail, etc. really do not have the interests of collectors in mind. What we have is what we have, and it is we collectors who will have to change our mindset about what collecting means to us and indeed what we will collect. Postal administration will not be changing their operations for our benefit, because we simply don't matter to their bottom line.
I and a lot of other collectors have responded to self-adhesive stamps and indeed most recent issues by collecting only older material, of which there is plenty.
Bob
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02:49:58pm
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
I agree with Bob(mostly !).
If one collects "stamps" rather than "pretty designs on stamp-size paper", one collects what the post office produces for it's operational needs. If you treat stamps as a facet of postal history, pretty designs are pretty much irrelevant. With modern postal administrations the edges are forever getting blurred.
If you collect bus timetables, business cards,letterheads or other forms of ephemera you collect what existed to meet commercial requirements - so why should stamps be any different ?
I actually like the pretty designs as well but I tend to major on definitives as being more "proper" stamps, and on postmarks which portray stamp usage.
I disagree with Bob about not collecting "self-adhesives" as these now form the majority of normal, non-philatelic postal use. What you have to do is adapt your collecting methodology to fit the new circumstances rather than expect the post office to consider what you want.
I dare say that in 50 years time collectors will wonder what all the fuss was about - an acceptable methodology of collecting such material having evolved naturally.
Malcolm
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re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
If I'm the Bob who Malcolm refers to, I didn't say collectors shouldn't collect self-adhesive stamps. I said that I and many collectors I know don't collect them, at least not on a regular basis.
The only modern stamps I collect are those which fit into my thematic collections stamps and covers related to the histories of the Second World War, the Vietnam War, and commercial aviation history.
Sometimes the self-adhesive versions cause real problems. In my last exhibit, I needed two mint copies of the cloud-type stamps issued by the U.S. in 2004. They were serpentine perfed (I believe that's the correct description) and couldn't be separated by cutting them apart. I ended up just removing them from the backing paper, sticking them on black paper squares, then mounting the squares. Any collecting value they had has been destroyed, but t least they look nice.
I've always believed that collectors should collect whatever they wish to collect. I don't happen to find many modern stamps very appealing, so I'm not personally concerned about the impact of self-adhesive stamps on the hobby. I wish they had never been invented, but it's pointless to dwell on their existence.
Bob
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05:14:21pm
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
Here's something to consider.
I was at the post office recently and (as is my norm)was scrounging through the wastebaskets looking for discarded envelopes with stamps. While this junket didn't bring any new jewels, I picked up 4 sheets of the backing paper from used booklets of the Christmas stamp.
So, Holmes, you might ask, "What can you do with that junk?" "Well, Watson, did you know that you can move those nasty little self adhesives onto the pristine backing material, and now trim away to your heart's content, leaving the specimen as close to mint as one might reasonably expect?
Hmmmm, elementary!
Bob (from Boston)
Login to Like
this post
re: Die cuts, measuring perfs, and SAs are here to stay
The interesting thing is that Malcolm and the 2 Bobs have all found ways around the postal service changes: Malcolm sees it from a historical perspective; Bob I, collects what appeals to him and discards the rest, and Bob from Boston picks up the discards and makes mounts of them. I've come at in a similar way: USPS changes make it much easire for me to give up certain collecting areas in their entirety. Luckily, we see four well-adjusted adults behaving in a rational way.
But most of the complaints about the USPS (and probably Malcolm's Royal Mail) are founded on the terrible disappointment that a way of collecting is being changed (they'd say "destroyed"). This relates to the increasingly meaninglessness of coil plate numbers; the inability to collect off-paper used stamps; and the increasing frequency with which the USPS issues stuff that's hard to get, priced above face or sold only in gargantuan quantities, and not really intended for use.
In a way, many philatelists are like lovers spurned, where the objects of their devotions are taken away or changed. This happened before: consider Farley's follies and the plate blocks of 20 as two examples. In both cases, the USPOD changed its ways to accommodate the backlash from collectors. I suspect that this won't happen this time.
In a way, this is little different from the collector-inspired change from PNC3 to PNC5, where many collectors are left holding much diminished collections that are no longer the fashion.
I think that if the USPS had initially offered only PNC1s and started with SAs, all would be golden; it's the change that is hard for folks.
For me, I'm like you, Malcolm, I welcome the change, noting the new bar codes and other elements of automation, seeing it all as part of the tapestry of life. And I'm like you, Bob I, in that I collect what I want. And Bob from Boston, I admire your ability to recycle. Bob I even has a collection of recycled and reused envelopes.
Interesting talk. Thanks for keeping this one alive and engaging.
David
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