Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It's been a pretty bad week. In 59 years of marriage, we can't remember both feeling so ill. Neither of us could stomach anything — food or water — for about three days, and we still don't our normal appetite back. Only today did I venture to have coffee again, in part because a "caffeine withdrawal" headache. The headache, at least, is gone. Both of us are still quite shaky and weak. It doesn't help, of course, that my wife is 80 and I am 83.
It's pretty clear that we somehow contracted a form of novovirus, which is transmitted primarily by contaminated surfaces rather than aerosols. Regular handwashing and regular cleaning of surfaces with bleach, not alcohol, is the best way to avoid it. You may have heard of novovirus and its common appearance on cruise ships, which seem to be floating cesspools regardless of attempts to clean them.
Bob
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thanks for warning us, Bob. Hope you both are well.
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Aye Bob one has to be very careful when out and about.
My wife still uses hand gel after she has been on the bus (twice a day) or in the shops/supermarket.
Despite that she went down with the flu on 31st of December. Being the caring sharing person that she is she passed it on to me 4 days later!
It was the worst bout of flu we had ever experienced. It was worse than covid. I did get the Flu vaccine in November and I still caught it. We are only now getting back to normal.
Everybody take care!
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Hope you feel better. And Stay away!
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Norovirus. It's Norovirus.
Causes a gut infection and diarrhea. Very highly infectious. Shed in vast amounts. Extremely difficult to sanitize, because it's resistant to most household disinfectants. Lysol (quaternary ammonium) will not work.
3% bleach is the best. Mix 3 parts laundry bleach (5.25% hypochlorite) with 2 parts water.
But, once you're sick, it's too late. Tne only thing to do is quarantine yourself. Natural immunity will end the infection in 10-14 days.
Then, the virus survives in the environment for weeks. (So, don't invite the grandkids over.)
Immunity is long-lived, once you recover.
Years ago, I contracted it on a return plane flight. Did not know it because I wasn't sick, yet. Made a big batch of potato salad that evening for a party we had the next day. Everyone who had the potato salad got sick.
The reason that Chipotle has been nagged by this disease is that their workers contract it, then come to work where they make food.
Norovirus is one of a few "non-enveloped" viruses. All of them are extremely difficult to contain - worse than coronavirus.
Others:
- Polioencephalomyelitis virus
- Coxsackie virus (Hand, foot, and mouth disease)
- Rotavirus (gut infection)
Most kids get Coxsackie, because it is endemic in childcare facilities this time of year. Just no way to contain it in those circumstances....
-Paul
Retired infectious diseases specialist
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Thank you for that informative message, Paul. I should add (to my opening post) that Susan (my wife) was so weak and disoriented during her vomiting/diarrhea sessions, that once when she tried to kneel in front of the toilet that she kind of half-fell to the side and more or less between the toilet and the shower door. She could help me just a bit in getting her sitting upright, against the door, and then she fainted. He rchin went down to her chest and she was not responsive. I thought she might have had a heart attack, but when I lifted her head up and shouted at her — "Susan! — her eyes popped open in surprise, like she had seen something she couldn't comprehend. And soon she was over the toilet again, vomiting yet again, and again. She has no memory of fainting. What a nasty disease! After a couple more sessions of vomiting and diarrhea, I called 911 and we spent the next five hours at our local hospital. What a trial that was!
We Canadians can be proud of the fact that a trip to the hospital doesn't cost a thing. Even a long stay in the hospital doesn't cost a thing. However....
There were no beds or gurneys available for ER patients, at least not the ones who were "ambulatory". We had to sit in the ER, waiting for visits, one after another, of nurses, lab techs, x-ray techs, ultrasound techs, the doctor, a CT scan. She got an IV drip (a litre of normal saline) with Gravol. She was very thirsty, but when I asked a nurse if she could her some ice chips she told me that the ice machine was broken. I didn't give up — I asked another nurse who said, "Of course," and soon came back with ice chips.
The truly awful thing about the hospital visit was the number of street people. Most were just quiet, but one young guy, sitting just across the hallway from us, was wearing a hospital gown and was sprawled across two seats, with his body threaded beneath the arms of the two chairs and his legs up against a pillar. Once, soon after we arrived, he hawked and spat a huge gobs of mucus right by my left foot. A nurse came an offered him methadone — he was obviously an addict well known to the staff. He didn't move or speak to her, or take the methadone. Later she came with some orange juice and a muffin. That got him up, but he didn't take the snack or the methadone with him. He just went to another seat, and spat two more huge gobs of mucous across the room. (Each time he spat, I asked a nurse if she get someone to clean it up, which she did. I pity the young Indo-Canadian woman who had to deal with it each time.)
There was also a problem with the washroom: there was a guy in there smoking and refusing to open the door. Eventually, security personnel forced the door open, and told him to leave. He wasn't a patient, just a street person who'd found a warm, "safe" place to stay.
That hospital, St. Paul's, is moving into a new building next year. A nurse told us that the ER will be bigger, but the hospital will have the same number of beds it has now — too few. She said the plans were based on Vancouver's population in 2016. It must be at least 100,000 people larger than it was then.
Is our society in trouble? You bet. Pretend that this ends with an emoji expressing disbelief and concern for our future!
Bob
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I have to add that we were very impressed with the hospital staff, including the paramedics who took us to hospital. Everyone was friendly and efficient (except for the nurse who said the ice machine was broken and left it at that). One of the paramedics was new, but experienced: He had just retired from the Canadian Army as a medic who had spent nine months in Afghanistan. He's the first Canadian military medic I've met, and coincidentally a combat veteran like me. I was in Vietnam, but for only 37 days before I was wounded.
Canadian troops fought in Afghanistan as part of the NATO effort to defeat the Taliban; 159 Canadian Forces personnel and 7 civilians were killed.
Bob
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The Canadian Women's Hockey Team had their first game at the Olympics rescheduled because Team Finland had Norovirus rampant throughout their squad.
Their next game, against Switzerland, was almost similarly threatened but they managed to isolate the few afflicted players.
This is the kind of disease that could get widespread through the Olympic Village.
So far only goalies have to wear masks...
Dave
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We don't really see Norovirus in livestock.
But, the most severe diarrheal diseases are seen in calves and nursing piglets. Rotavirus is one of those, and is also non-enveloped. Coronavirus is another, but is enveloped, so more susceptible to disinfectants. I spent probably half of all my brainpower over my career, formulating control plans for these two...
Rota, Noro, and Corona are all The Most difficult to contain. Corona is notorious because it is so prolific. We measure its viral loads in the tens of billions of virions...per cubic cm of tissue or fluid.
Young animals (and infants!) are particularly susceptible to enteric diseases like these, because they depend on the small intestine for fluid absorption, and that part (the distal villi) gets completely wiped out for about 5 days, and so mortality approaches 100%. Once past infancy, animals depend more on the colon for fluid absorption, so they don't usually die from these diseases.
-Paul
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That's interesting, Paul, even if I don't understand half of your post, and can't believe the other half! I've copied your posts and sent them to our son, also a Paul, because he spends his life trying to explain pain and pain control to people, and all of his writing is based on good medical science. No junk studies allowed! He has wide medical interests, though: When we last talked with him, by telephone, one of the topics was the death of children because of diarrhea.
I got out today, with my disability scooter, for the first time since I got sick eight days ago. I was exhausted when I got home, and most of my effort involved steering my scooter and reaching for things on store shelves, plus a handful of minutes standing in line for three or four minutes at the deli and butcher shop.! I haven't been this exhausted since I was 17 and had pneumonia.
Bob
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Keep washing your hands! A week ago last night, my wife suddenly was in the bathroom, vomiting multiple times and having diarrhea. About 18 hours later, I was in the same situation, minus the diarrhea.
It's been a pretty bad week. In 59 years of marriage, we can't remember both feeling so ill. Neither of us could stomach anything — food or water — for about three days, and we still don't our normal appetite back. Only today did I venture to have coffee again, in part because a "caffeine withdrawal" headache. The headache, at least, is gone. Both of us are still quite shaky and weak. It doesn't help, of course, that my wife is 80 and I am 83.
It's pretty clear that we somehow contracted a form of novovirus, which is transmitted primarily by contaminated surfaces rather than aerosols. Regular handwashing and regular cleaning of surfaces with bleach, not alcohol, is the best way to avoid it. You may have heard of novovirus and its common appearance on cruise ships, which seem to be floating cesspools regardless of attempts to clean them.
Bob
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re: Beware of norovirus
thanks for warning us, Bob. Hope you both are well.
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05:23:41pm
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re: Beware of norovirus
Aye Bob one has to be very careful when out and about.
My wife still uses hand gel after she has been on the bus (twice a day) or in the shops/supermarket.
Despite that she went down with the flu on 31st of December. Being the caring sharing person that she is she passed it on to me 4 days later!
It was the worst bout of flu we had ever experienced. It was worse than covid. I did get the Flu vaccine in November and I still caught it. We are only now getting back to normal.
Everybody take care!
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re: Beware of norovirus
Hope you feel better. And Stay away!
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05:57:49pm
re: Beware of norovirus
Norovirus. It's Norovirus.
Causes a gut infection and diarrhea. Very highly infectious. Shed in vast amounts. Extremely difficult to sanitize, because it's resistant to most household disinfectants. Lysol (quaternary ammonium) will not work.
3% bleach is the best. Mix 3 parts laundry bleach (5.25% hypochlorite) with 2 parts water.
But, once you're sick, it's too late. Tne only thing to do is quarantine yourself. Natural immunity will end the infection in 10-14 days.
Then, the virus survives in the environment for weeks. (So, don't invite the grandkids over.)
Immunity is long-lived, once you recover.
Years ago, I contracted it on a return plane flight. Did not know it because I wasn't sick, yet. Made a big batch of potato salad that evening for a party we had the next day. Everyone who had the potato salad got sick.
The reason that Chipotle has been nagged by this disease is that their workers contract it, then come to work where they make food.
Norovirus is one of a few "non-enveloped" viruses. All of them are extremely difficult to contain - worse than coronavirus.
Others:
- Polioencephalomyelitis virus
- Coxsackie virus (Hand, foot, and mouth disease)
- Rotavirus (gut infection)
Most kids get Coxsackie, because it is endemic in childcare facilities this time of year. Just no way to contain it in those circumstances....
-Paul
Retired infectious diseases specialist
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re: Beware of norovirus
Thank you for that informative message, Paul. I should add (to my opening post) that Susan (my wife) was so weak and disoriented during her vomiting/diarrhea sessions, that once when she tried to kneel in front of the toilet that she kind of half-fell to the side and more or less between the toilet and the shower door. She could help me just a bit in getting her sitting upright, against the door, and then she fainted. He rchin went down to her chest and she was not responsive. I thought she might have had a heart attack, but when I lifted her head up and shouted at her — "Susan! — her eyes popped open in surprise, like she had seen something she couldn't comprehend. And soon she was over the toilet again, vomiting yet again, and again. She has no memory of fainting. What a nasty disease! After a couple more sessions of vomiting and diarrhea, I called 911 and we spent the next five hours at our local hospital. What a trial that was!
We Canadians can be proud of the fact that a trip to the hospital doesn't cost a thing. Even a long stay in the hospital doesn't cost a thing. However....
There were no beds or gurneys available for ER patients, at least not the ones who were "ambulatory". We had to sit in the ER, waiting for visits, one after another, of nurses, lab techs, x-ray techs, ultrasound techs, the doctor, a CT scan. She got an IV drip (a litre of normal saline) with Gravol. She was very thirsty, but when I asked a nurse if she could her some ice chips she told me that the ice machine was broken. I didn't give up — I asked another nurse who said, "Of course," and soon came back with ice chips.
The truly awful thing about the hospital visit was the number of street people. Most were just quiet, but one young guy, sitting just across the hallway from us, was wearing a hospital gown and was sprawled across two seats, with his body threaded beneath the arms of the two chairs and his legs up against a pillar. Once, soon after we arrived, he hawked and spat a huge gobs of mucus right by my left foot. A nurse came an offered him methadone — he was obviously an addict well known to the staff. He didn't move or speak to her, or take the methadone. Later she came with some orange juice and a muffin. That got him up, but he didn't take the snack or the methadone with him. He just went to another seat, and spat two more huge gobs of mucous across the room. (Each time he spat, I asked a nurse if she get someone to clean it up, which she did. I pity the young Indo-Canadian woman who had to deal with it each time.)
There was also a problem with the washroom: there was a guy in there smoking and refusing to open the door. Eventually, security personnel forced the door open, and told him to leave. He wasn't a patient, just a street person who'd found a warm, "safe" place to stay.
That hospital, St. Paul's, is moving into a new building next year. A nurse told us that the ER will be bigger, but the hospital will have the same number of beds it has now — too few. She said the plans were based on Vancouver's population in 2016. It must be at least 100,000 people larger than it was then.
Is our society in trouble? You bet. Pretend that this ends with an emoji expressing disbelief and concern for our future!
Bob
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re: Beware of norovirus
I have to add that we were very impressed with the hospital staff, including the paramedics who took us to hospital. Everyone was friendly and efficient (except for the nurse who said the ice machine was broken and left it at that). One of the paramedics was new, but experienced: He had just retired from the Canadian Army as a medic who had spent nine months in Afghanistan. He's the first Canadian military medic I've met, and coincidentally a combat veteran like me. I was in Vietnam, but for only 37 days before I was wounded.
Canadian troops fought in Afghanistan as part of the NATO effort to defeat the Taliban; 159 Canadian Forces personnel and 7 civilians were killed.
Bob
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05:14:30am
re: Beware of norovirus
The Canadian Women's Hockey Team had their first game at the Olympics rescheduled because Team Finland had Norovirus rampant throughout their squad.
Their next game, against Switzerland, was almost similarly threatened but they managed to isolate the few afflicted players.
This is the kind of disease that could get widespread through the Olympic Village.
So far only goalies have to wear masks...
Dave
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04:25:55pm
re: Beware of norovirus
We don't really see Norovirus in livestock.
But, the most severe diarrheal diseases are seen in calves and nursing piglets. Rotavirus is one of those, and is also non-enveloped. Coronavirus is another, but is enveloped, so more susceptible to disinfectants. I spent probably half of all my brainpower over my career, formulating control plans for these two...
Rota, Noro, and Corona are all The Most difficult to contain. Corona is notorious because it is so prolific. We measure its viral loads in the tens of billions of virions...per cubic cm of tissue or fluid.
Young animals (and infants!) are particularly susceptible to enteric diseases like these, because they depend on the small intestine for fluid absorption, and that part (the distal villi) gets completely wiped out for about 5 days, and so mortality approaches 100%. Once past infancy, animals depend more on the colon for fluid absorption, so they don't usually die from these diseases.
-Paul
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re: Beware of norovirus
That's interesting, Paul, even if I don't understand half of your post, and can't believe the other half! I've copied your posts and sent them to our son, also a Paul, because he spends his life trying to explain pain and pain control to people, and all of his writing is based on good medical science. No junk studies allowed! He has wide medical interests, though: When we last talked with him, by telephone, one of the topics was the death of children because of diarrhea.
I got out today, with my disability scooter, for the first time since I got sick eight days ago. I was exhausted when I got home, and most of my effort involved steering my scooter and reaching for things on store shelves, plus a handful of minutes standing in line for three or four minutes at the deli and butcher shop.! I haven't been this exhausted since I was 17 and had pneumonia.
Bob
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