Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
After learning that he does it from home and the fact he uses a reference collection of used stamps as his medium to base his opinions of other stamps for clients/customers to have an opinion rendered for their stamp. Again there is nothing wrong with this method it has been an accepted practice for eons now. I raised his eyebrows when I asked him what other references he uses to help him render his expert opinion. He scoffed at my question that he clearly felt was my way of being rhetorical and challenging him. I quickly smoothed his feathers and said I am really interested to learn these methods. Taken back by what I said. He thought for a minute as if he was trying to hide a trade secret. At least that is what his body language told me.
I then said teach me, show me so I can pass this knowledge down to my children I'm serious! You have been collecting for more than 60 years now and expertising for more than twenty now. I am 20 years younger than you and have been collecting for more than 40 years now. Then to break the ice some more I said. What is my mothers maiden name? Then he started laughing almost uncontrollably. When he finally gathered himself he said all right.
He showed me some of his reference collection which is to be completely honest with everyone reading this post is no better than the one I have been trying to build for the past 10 years. I didn't say that to him. He also has the same basic tools for the trade peroration gauges, tongs, a good light, computer scanner catalogs etc... as anyone else. But it begs a-lot of questions and I did ask some of him very carefully so I wouldn't offend him and be able to learn some things. Boy talk about an eye opening educational experience.
The biggest lesson I have learned is having a reference collection is a useful tool but it isn't the only source that should be relyed upon. Especially for color identification. I asked him why he didn't use unused stamps for a reference collection or some of the color guide references like R.H. Whites color guide for example. He asked me why would he? I said because used stamps have been canceled and the inks have discolored the papers so there is no honest way of determining the original color of a stamp that is over 150 years old. Not only ink but foxing and smoke, other thinks cause changes in colors such as cleaning or fugitive ink and sunlight for that matter. Unused stamps I think would be a better medium don't you? He said yes.
The second part to his answer to that question blew my mind. To be completely candid with every one I was quite shocked and stopped asking him questions as quickly as I could. His response was most disturbing to me. He said that he couldn't afford some of the stamps and references for that matter. I couldn't help my next question. I asked what do you do when there is a color that you can't identify for example? He said I give the item/stamp an opinion of no opinion rendered. I asked where do or who do send it to next if you can't render an opinion? He said it usually goes back to the customer. After that answer I had to break contact with him as quickly as I could because I could feel my blood pressure rising. After parting ways I had this thought.
Why the hell would I spend that kind of coin and send my property to him or anyone else if I can render that opinion for myself with all of the resources I have at my disposal? For example my own small reference collections, books on topic such as color identification and different gauges for that purpose. Type overlays and grill identification overlays, perforation gauges for U.S. and foreign stamps, calipers metric and inch/imperial, computer, scanner, camera, microscopes, lopes, a complete set A to Z set of catalogs from Scott, other references in my personal library, access to the internet and finally the public library which quite honestly is lacking in references to that end. My personal library is larger with regard to philately and far more in depth for my specialty which is 19th and early 20th century U.S. The most important tool of all is humility and the ability to find the resources.
After learning this all important lesson from one individual. I now understand why philately is in a tail spin right now. It is because people are struggling to keep up with the times and using a century and half's old methods. The point to this topic is don't rely upon one single source for your information there are plenty of resources available to us all and think for yourself. Besides some of the references that I have and use cost as much as a family of 4 would pay at McDonalds for a meal.
Jeremy
"Just because it is written in a book, in the news, heard over the radio, in social media, on the internet, repeated over and over again doesn't make it the truth."
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For a rather detailed introduction to the "Art" of Expertizing philatelic material, you might want to read a compilation of articles written by John M Hotchner for Linn's Weekly Stamp News. At John's request, I prepared this compilation for Linn's, and it is hosted on their website here....
https://www.linns.com/docs/default-sourc ...
Although the PDF file name says 2014-2018, it actually covers columns between 2014 -2023.
I have a private version of the file with later columns that has not made it online yet.
MikeL
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Thank you Mike. I will give the articles a thorough read.
Jeremy
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Mike,
I am into the 5th article for the year 2014 of the referenced PDF file that you have shared here with us all and I must say that the articles are well written. They are easy to understand and confirm that my feelings and intuitions aren't wrong at all. Many people feel the same way I do. I have also saved the PDF file to my desk top in my stamp collecting reference file.
Thank you again for sharing with us.
Jeremy
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Jeremy:
Thank you for the kind words, but the thanks really goes to John Hotchner, who saw the need for the series of columns , and wrote so eloquently about the Expertizing Process. For the record, the series is continuing in the Scott's Stamp Monthly publication from Amos Media.
I am merely the tool that pulled them together.
MikeL
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This raises a lot of issues:
1. I like to have a cert for an expensive stamp. It will help my heirs get the most from my collection.
2. I will sometimes get a cert on an intermediate stamp that is heavily faked, just for piece of mind, but I have a stamp that was declared trimmed perfs from Weiss and authentic by APEX. It ain't perfect.
3. I have learned that collecting plate number singles is a GREAT way to create a reference collection for modern type differences! The plate number can also act as a cert in other cases.
4. I self cert a lot of stuff and then check my work. I identified a bunch of banknotes and sent two off for a cert. They came back 50/50, so I sent about 8 more. I learned that I SUCK at identifying Banknote paper. I used control stamps that could ONLY be NBN or CBN or ABN and did the infamous "flick" tests. No good here.
5. I just sent a stamp back that I was able to self cert in my field of expertise. A very impressive fake at that!
6. I use "The Serrane Guide", "Album Weeds" by Earee, and online forgery guides to avoid obvious traps.
7. However, when I get outside my area of expertise, I really don't see an alternative for heavily faked items unless you can find an expert you can trust that has retail sales. Patricia Kaufmann comes to mind for my CSA needs.
8. I agree with the timeframe. WHY DOES IT TAKE SO LONG??? I have a stamp at APEX for a cert that has been there since November 22, 2024. Another has been there since January 15, 2025. 4 months and 2 months. Does seem to take a while.
Lars
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I sent a picture of a Canadian Province stamp to a well known certifier. I asked if it was worth sending to them. I was emailed back that I shouldn't waste my time as it was fake. This stamp was included in an online auction I won. I emailed auction raising a bit of hell. They said I could send everything back, but insisted they would never offer a collection with fakes of semi expensive stamps. As I had already taken apart a good portion of the collection, I decided to just move on. There were two other stamps from the same timeline and similar design I suspected might be fakes as well. This still didn't seem right. So, I decided to spend the money and send to Vincent Greene. All three were authentic.
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Not all expertising services are the same... there are some lesser known, dicey ones for sure. PF, The Philatelic Foundation, seems to be the gold standard. What firm was this guy with?
I wouldn't poo poo expertising services or their methods for that matter. I'm sure they've got some VERY SMART people on staff that have examined some of the world's greatest rarities.
I just pulled up eBay. Clicked on Stamps, United States sorted by "highest price", almost near the top was a C3a with a PF cert. If you have a C3a, you only send it to the best.
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Keep in mind that a certificate is:
1) only an opinion
2) totally dependent on the knowledge of the individual doing the expertization
3) based on the details and equipment available at the time of expertization
4) occasionally based on the relationship between the submitter and the person doing the expertization, or the reputation of the submitter.
My own"expertization" back when I did large shows as a dealer was to walk questionable stamps over to a dealer who specialized in those stamps. I remember walking a set of early Polish overprints over to a dealer's table holding a stockcard in my hand and when I was still a couple of feet away he said "Second printing". I asked him how he could tell that and he said "the glossiness of the ink". He pulled out a set of the first printing and the difference was obvious. It's not a documented opinion but as a seller I trust the opinion as much as a cert and would stand by a specialists verbal opinion. Quick and easy but nothing to hang your hat on if a buyer disagrees. Not all dealers are willing to share their expertise for free and as a "walk in" your best bet might be to ask how you could tell is your stamp is genuine.
Just my opinion - others may disagree.
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I used to use the APS Expertizing Service when I thought I could afford it. I had some memorable (good) experiences, like them identifying the collection it came from and the collector's home country.
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I'd rather not name the firm. Maybe just a bad day for whoever looked at it. Since it was a Canadian province stamp, and old, I should have gone to Greene to begin with. I was only trying to show that not everyone is an expert at everything.
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I get the feeling from the direction this thread is headed in that there are some strong opinions about the topic of expertising stamps. I knew this when I started this thread and it wasn't to wake the snakes/start flame wars. While there are some of us that rely heavily on this service and there some of us who use it intermittently and finally some that choose to not use it at all. The point is we are exercising our freewill period and there is no single correct way for us to practice our hobbies though some us might argue that point.
Everyone here has made a lot of valid points but I feel now it is time to present some possible solutions to the problems that many of us have with the idea of expertising. I for one have a great deal of heartburn with a few things related to the topic.
1) My biggest problem that I have with the idea is the turn around time 4 to 6 months to get my property back is in 2 words BS!
Everyone raises cane when they don't get their automobile back in a timely manner from the shop and its always considered to be the mechanics fault. I have a news flash for everyone. The mechanic is lucky to make 1/6th of what you get charged for the shop labor rate and it isn't considered a skilled trade anymore. They are just parts changers. How do I know this factoid many of you may be asking. I am a retired military fleet vehicle mechanic and even worked in the civilian sector practicing the same trade. So I can be considered an expert in that field. But I'll be the first to tell anyone listening. I am an expert of nothing. Knowledgable yes but an expert? Not by a long shot. I don't know everything. That is exactly why I am typing this thread.
Philatelic expertising should be no different. After all the only service provided is an opinion and opinions are like the forth point of contact. Everyone has one and they all stink.
2) I propose that we get back to the basics of one location that our property goes to and stays at. Not traveling through the mail services from location to location and all points in between. That is just crazy and if you ask me a poor business model. STREAMLINE THE PROCESS!!! is the point and stop projecting the taut that it is to protect an investment.
3) Old farts. Yes those of you old enough to be my parents and I am the double nickel. Teach us what you know without being condescending so the hobby doesn't go by way of the Dodo bird. Meaning extinct. I have 3 generations of children to teach. They range in age from 28 years old to 2 years old. So do the math and figure that one out.
4) I can live with the cost to a point. Because there are 3 people that are rendering an opinion/doing most of the tedious work and they too are humans with mouths to feed and bills to pay too.
So lets hear some other ideas to fix this problem not just complain about it.
Jeremy
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Sarge,
Just curious, why do you write things like this:
"I get the feeling from the direction this thread is headed in that there are some strong opinions about the topic of expertising stamps. I knew this when I started this thread and it wasn't to wake the snakes/start flame wars."
I don't see where this is heated or a flame war AT ALL. Just people sharing their opinions about expertising. I think we were talking about Washington/Franklins and you told us to be careful and that kids read the discussion board. Haha
Are you seeing something here that I'm missing??
Ernie
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Ernie I'll PM you later on today. I have some other things to do right now.
Jeremy
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It's ok man. Just more amused than anything else.
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@Anyone
How often should a certificate be replaced?
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I don't sense any flame wars at all.
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It took me all day to remember this gentleman's name and I was sad to learn that he passed in 2023. Sergio Sismondo was a giant of the hobby. He handled the treskilling yellow and many other rarities. He always seemed like this stamp savant in his glasses and was an expert in stamps from all corners of the globe. I enjoyed reading his articles in Linn's back in the day. He started expertising and it seemed like he took in the most esoteric stamps, the more mysterious the better.
https://www.linns.com/news/us-stamps-pos ...
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I just wish that I could find dealers that can be trusted that specialize in a few areas.
For example, for CSA I trust Patricia Kaufmann. Not going to be the best price, but I don't doubt it is legit.
Does anyone have a trusted seller for:
1. Early Afghanistan
2. Early Argentina (Buenos Airesm Cordoba, Corrientes) - Guillermo Jalil - guillermo@JalilStamps.com
3. Early Canada (Vancouver Island Scott #3-6 or SG #11-14)
4. Cochin China
5. Far Eastern Republic (Chita Issue)
6. German States - Ari de Boer - philatelistmagazine@gmail.com
7. Indian States - Sandeep Jaiswal - auctions@StampsInc.com
8. Karelia
9. Madagascar (British Consular Mail)
10. Malaya (Occupation)
11. Mariana Islands (early)
12. Romania (Moldavia - early)
13. New Zealand (Antarctica)
14. Nicaragua - Cabo Gracias a Dios
15. Poland (#1)
16. Tetuan
17. Thrace (1913)
18. Ukraine - 1920 Military stamps
19. Venezuela - Carupano
I saw an ad in the American Philatelist for a dealer that specializes in Indian States. Sandeep Jaiswal at www.StampsInc.com. Don't know if he is legit or not.
It would be nice to have reliable sources!
Lars
UPDATE: I will update this as I get sources. Sending emails to first 3 sources (2, 6, and 7) today.
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I recommend jalilstamps.com for Argentina
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"I recommend jalilstamps.com for Argentina"
Excellent! Thank you for the tip!
Lars
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My 2 cents take on this subject.
I don't use "expertising services" my stamp collection is not an investiment, I collect for pleasure. My collection is worthless, but valuable in research value!
I think stamp collectors (other than myself) uses expertising services with the idea of selling their collection for high dollar sometime in the future.
Now then how often should a cert. be had. Let's say you see a stamp which you consider important for your collection and you want it and consider it worth a $1,000.000. It has a cert. that is 20 years old, or maybe just 10 years old. The seller wants $900.00 for the stamp, are you going to purchase this stamp with a cert. 10 or 20 years old, or do you a new cert.?
Just my personal thinking of this subject. No offense intended!
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1899.....among many things, what is the CV of this example?
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04:01:45pm
I sort of agree with 1899 on this one! If I am about to buy an expensive stamp and it already comes with a certificate then that's fantastic! But, almost as important as that is how much I trust the seller. Have I had good luck with this person? A lot of my pricey stuff comes from someone I have been buying from for over 50 years (him and his father) and always with great results! I also don't really care that much for the value of the stamps. I do put CV's on many of the stamps but that's mainly to help out the next person! I have never sent a stamp to be certified, I figure I know as much about some of the stamps as some certifiers do anyway! If you are only getting certificates to make yourself feel a bit better it seems to me you are spending a lot of money just for that brief bit of pleasure - of course all IMHO!!
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It would be a combination of how old, and who issued it?
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CV??
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05:50:56pm
CV - Catalog Value, for me Scott's
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CV (this was just a made up stamp ie example)
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Sismondo's library was sold country by country by Dutch country auctions. I got the France and Morocco boxes. It was a bit of a let down to discover that there was little more to expertising than what I had already found in Bellefonte.
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Were copies of the certs that he had issued for the respective countries included in the country lots?
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Found on ebay tonight.
There must be a story behind this cert., but the seller did not provide one.
SOR members have any ideas?
I for one think the expertising service took advantage of the submitter.
I think the cert. is readable.
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Who in their right mind would send such a cheap stamp for a cert?
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I wonder if the submitter throught it was more valuable than it was.
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"Who in their right mind would send such a cheap stamp for a cert?"
Sometimes the expertising people will sell a block (25, 50 etc.) of submissions; there are deals out there where its not that expensive. Folks will take a common stamp that, to the average layman, looks "old" (so it must be valuable, right?) and obtain a cert.
He's asking $25 for a 25c stamp. An unitiated person who is new to the hobby sees this and thinks that since its certified it must be a "good deal". They hit "buy it now" and voila! Nice profit.
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Except I think the Certification itself cost at least the $25 - after ebay fees the seller is probably losing money if they were the original owner of the cert.
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@Josh,
I could be proven wrong but I'm fairly certain that, if purchased in bulk, bundles of cert. submissions could be had for MUCH less than $25 each.
I just looked at their website. It seems to say that the minimum price tag is $25 but I guarantee they offer some sort of volume pricing. They also often give a certain number of freebies when you first sign up.
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I sent a very nice Canada small queen for certifying. It was mint, and I thought ,just maybe, it was a pricier color variety. Well, I was correct on my color thoughts, but it was also regummed (which IMO should be priced as VF used). I didn't quite break even on the subsequent sale of the stamp when cert cost was thrown in. Oh well, some times that's just the way it works out. If I had known it was regummed I would not have had it certified. When it came back, I sill didn't recognize why it was not OG.
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09:22:32am
Why do we just assume the certifier is always right? I've been playing around with stamps for a very long time as most of you have as well, maybe we know as much as some of the certifiers do!!
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I must admit that If I was going to buy a "certified" stamp I would want to examine it myself PHYSICALLY.
Otherwise "Buyer Beware!"
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Ernie,
I apologize for not sending a PM to you and after thinking about the questions you asked me on this thread a few posts back and after thinking about how to answer them. I feel that it will better serve everyone here to understand my thinking after you asked me on the open forum. For what is worth. If I have to explain my posts in detail for all to understand. There is only one way to sum it up. It is just my writing style more-over no harm is meant by them and if no one can understand that then I'm sorry for your luck.
Secondly when the topic of minors participating with the topics on this forum came up again. Spoiler alert there is one that I know of who routinely participates and has sent me PM's not that is really anyones business but it is true and I will not reveal his name because that would be very irresponsible of me to do so. I have also corresponded with him outside of this forum only after making contact with his parents. Which is the only responsible way to talk metaphorically speaking via the internet or snail mail for that matter of course to a child that is not my own. But the point is they are present and do participate with the forum.
I hope that this explains it.
Now to get back to what this discussion is really about which is philatelic expertising services. Is it not? I just want let everyone know that a lot of great points have been made. Keep them coming.
From what I understand from all of the posts besides my own is.
1) Cost is a big issue. At least for me it is and I am sure others feel the same way.
2) Turn around time is another huge issue I have which I explained in the opening post.
3) The integrity of the servicer is a big one. For example: The one I was inquiring about my stamp that has a 65 year old Certificate by SG ( SG# 35 North China with the grey overprint ) and questioned why it wasn't placed in the catalog as a variety back in 1960 when it was identified as such and SG said on the certificate that they would the following year. Here is another example after doing some tire kicking if you will and seriously considering sending the stamp I mentioned in the previous sentence. I had a servicer ask me to donate it to their reference collection because they didn't have one. That request is big reason why I started this thread. That request made me very angry and I will never conduct any business with them.
4) Protecting ones investment is another tout that bugs the snot out of me. Protecting an investment isn't really an issue for me because I like 1899 said in one of his posts. I don't buy valuable stamps I discover them. Research and educating myself and others when I can is the biggest return/pleasure I get from the hobby. Money from the sale of a stamp isn't a priority of mine.
Jeremy
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Yo Sarge,
Like I said before, no worries man; all is well. I was just impressed with your passion. At the end of the day, it's just stamps Dawg.
Ernie
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cjd:
"Were copies of the certs that he had issued for the respective countries included in the country lots?"
No certs or the like. Just books and journals. They were troves of very useful resources.
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"They were troves of very useful resources."
I can only imagine. I have quite a few of their bookplates (ex libris), in volumes purchased over the years; usually in books that they were updating to newer editions. There must have been gold there in the items that they weren't parting with during life.
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Thank you for the Latin word of the day.
Jeremy
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12:59:49pm
I have a mixed bag of emotions about the topic from the warm and fuzzy to the chewing steel and spitting nails mostly the latter of the two feelings now. I bring this topic up because I very recently had an eye opening experience meeting a man who is on an expertising service and does it from the comfort of his home and don't get me wrong I see nothing wrong with it all. But it explains why there is such a long turn around time to get ones property back.
After learning that he does it from home and the fact he uses a reference collection of used stamps as his medium to base his opinions of other stamps for clients/customers to have an opinion rendered for their stamp. Again there is nothing wrong with this method it has been an accepted practice for eons now. I raised his eyebrows when I asked him what other references he uses to help him render his expert opinion. He scoffed at my question that he clearly felt was my way of being rhetorical and challenging him. I quickly smoothed his feathers and said I am really interested to learn these methods. Taken back by what I said. He thought for a minute as if he was trying to hide a trade secret. At least that is what his body language told me.
I then said teach me, show me so I can pass this knowledge down to my children I'm serious! You have been collecting for more than 60 years now and expertising for more than twenty now. I am 20 years younger than you and have been collecting for more than 40 years now. Then to break the ice some more I said. What is my mothers maiden name? Then he started laughing almost uncontrollably. When he finally gathered himself he said all right.
He showed me some of his reference collection which is to be completely honest with everyone reading this post is no better than the one I have been trying to build for the past 10 years. I didn't say that to him. He also has the same basic tools for the trade peroration gauges, tongs, a good light, computer scanner catalogs etc... as anyone else. But it begs a-lot of questions and I did ask some of him very carefully so I wouldn't offend him and be able to learn some things. Boy talk about an eye opening educational experience.
The biggest lesson I have learned is having a reference collection is a useful tool but it isn't the only source that should be relyed upon. Especially for color identification. I asked him why he didn't use unused stamps for a reference collection or some of the color guide references like R.H. Whites color guide for example. He asked me why would he? I said because used stamps have been canceled and the inks have discolored the papers so there is no honest way of determining the original color of a stamp that is over 150 years old. Not only ink but foxing and smoke, other thinks cause changes in colors such as cleaning or fugitive ink and sunlight for that matter. Unused stamps I think would be a better medium don't you? He said yes.
The second part to his answer to that question blew my mind. To be completely candid with every one I was quite shocked and stopped asking him questions as quickly as I could. His response was most disturbing to me. He said that he couldn't afford some of the stamps and references for that matter. I couldn't help my next question. I asked what do you do when there is a color that you can't identify for example? He said I give the item/stamp an opinion of no opinion rendered. I asked where do or who do send it to next if you can't render an opinion? He said it usually goes back to the customer. After that answer I had to break contact with him as quickly as I could because I could feel my blood pressure rising. After parting ways I had this thought.
Why the hell would I spend that kind of coin and send my property to him or anyone else if I can render that opinion for myself with all of the resources I have at my disposal? For example my own small reference collections, books on topic such as color identification and different gauges for that purpose. Type overlays and grill identification overlays, perforation gauges for U.S. and foreign stamps, calipers metric and inch/imperial, computer, scanner, camera, microscopes, lopes, a complete set A to Z set of catalogs from Scott, other references in my personal library, access to the internet and finally the public library which quite honestly is lacking in references to that end. My personal library is larger with regard to philately and far more in depth for my specialty which is 19th and early 20th century U.S. The most important tool of all is humility and the ability to find the resources.
After learning this all important lesson from one individual. I now understand why philately is in a tail spin right now. It is because people are struggling to keep up with the times and using a century and half's old methods. The point to this topic is don't rely upon one single source for your information there are plenty of resources available to us all and think for yourself. Besides some of the references that I have and use cost as much as a family of 4 would pay at McDonalds for a meal.
Jeremy
"Just because it is written in a book, in the news, heard over the radio, in social media, on the internet, repeated over and over again doesn't make it the truth."
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01:25:35pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
For a rather detailed introduction to the "Art" of Expertizing philatelic material, you might want to read a compilation of articles written by John M Hotchner for Linn's Weekly Stamp News. At John's request, I prepared this compilation for Linn's, and it is hosted on their website here....
https://www.linns.com/docs/default-sourc ...
Although the PDF file name says 2014-2018, it actually covers columns between 2014 -2023.
I have a private version of the file with later columns that has not made it online yet.
MikeL
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01:38:39pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Thank you Mike. I will give the articles a thorough read.
Jeremy
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04:04:35pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Mike,
I am into the 5th article for the year 2014 of the referenced PDF file that you have shared here with us all and I must say that the articles are well written. They are easy to understand and confirm that my feelings and intuitions aren't wrong at all. Many people feel the same way I do. I have also saved the PDF file to my desk top in my stamp collecting reference file.
Thank you again for sharing with us.
Jeremy
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04:17:14pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Jeremy:
Thank you for the kind words, but the thanks really goes to John Hotchner, who saw the need for the series of columns , and wrote so eloquently about the Expertizing Process. For the record, the series is continuing in the Scott's Stamp Monthly publication from Amos Media.
I am merely the tool that pulled them together.
MikeL
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
This raises a lot of issues:
1. I like to have a cert for an expensive stamp. It will help my heirs get the most from my collection.
2. I will sometimes get a cert on an intermediate stamp that is heavily faked, just for piece of mind, but I have a stamp that was declared trimmed perfs from Weiss and authentic by APEX. It ain't perfect.
3. I have learned that collecting plate number singles is a GREAT way to create a reference collection for modern type differences! The plate number can also act as a cert in other cases.
4. I self cert a lot of stuff and then check my work. I identified a bunch of banknotes and sent two off for a cert. They came back 50/50, so I sent about 8 more. I learned that I SUCK at identifying Banknote paper. I used control stamps that could ONLY be NBN or CBN or ABN and did the infamous "flick" tests. No good here.
5. I just sent a stamp back that I was able to self cert in my field of expertise. A very impressive fake at that!
6. I use "The Serrane Guide", "Album Weeds" by Earee, and online forgery guides to avoid obvious traps.
7. However, when I get outside my area of expertise, I really don't see an alternative for heavily faked items unless you can find an expert you can trust that has retail sales. Patricia Kaufmann comes to mind for my CSA needs.
8. I agree with the timeframe. WHY DOES IT TAKE SO LONG??? I have a stamp at APEX for a cert that has been there since November 22, 2024. Another has been there since January 15, 2025. 4 months and 2 months. Does seem to take a while.
Lars
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I sent a picture of a Canadian Province stamp to a well known certifier. I asked if it was worth sending to them. I was emailed back that I shouldn't waste my time as it was fake. This stamp was included in an online auction I won. I emailed auction raising a bit of hell. They said I could send everything back, but insisted they would never offer a collection with fakes of semi expensive stamps. As I had already taken apart a good portion of the collection, I decided to just move on. There were two other stamps from the same timeline and similar design I suspected might be fakes as well. This still didn't seem right. So, I decided to spend the money and send to Vincent Greene. All three were authentic.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Not all expertising services are the same... there are some lesser known, dicey ones for sure. PF, The Philatelic Foundation, seems to be the gold standard. What firm was this guy with?
I wouldn't poo poo expertising services or their methods for that matter. I'm sure they've got some VERY SMART people on staff that have examined some of the world's greatest rarities.
I just pulled up eBay. Clicked on Stamps, United States sorted by "highest price", almost near the top was a C3a with a PF cert. If you have a C3a, you only send it to the best.
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09:43:14am
Approvals
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Keep in mind that a certificate is:
1) only an opinion
2) totally dependent on the knowledge of the individual doing the expertization
3) based on the details and equipment available at the time of expertization
4) occasionally based on the relationship between the submitter and the person doing the expertization, or the reputation of the submitter.
My own"expertization" back when I did large shows as a dealer was to walk questionable stamps over to a dealer who specialized in those stamps. I remember walking a set of early Polish overprints over to a dealer's table holding a stockcard in my hand and when I was still a couple of feet away he said "Second printing". I asked him how he could tell that and he said "the glossiness of the ink". He pulled out a set of the first printing and the difference was obvious. It's not a documented opinion but as a seller I trust the opinion as much as a cert and would stand by a specialists verbal opinion. Quick and easy but nothing to hang your hat on if a buyer disagrees. Not all dealers are willing to share their expertise for free and as a "walk in" your best bet might be to ask how you could tell is your stamp is genuine.
Just my opinion - others may disagree.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I used to use the APS Expertizing Service when I thought I could afford it. I had some memorable (good) experiences, like them identifying the collection it came from and the collector's home country.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I'd rather not name the firm. Maybe just a bad day for whoever looked at it. Since it was a Canadian province stamp, and old, I should have gone to Greene to begin with. I was only trying to show that not everyone is an expert at everything.
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01:15:23pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I get the feeling from the direction this thread is headed in that there are some strong opinions about the topic of expertising stamps. I knew this when I started this thread and it wasn't to wake the snakes/start flame wars. While there are some of us that rely heavily on this service and there some of us who use it intermittently and finally some that choose to not use it at all. The point is we are exercising our freewill period and there is no single correct way for us to practice our hobbies though some us might argue that point.
Everyone here has made a lot of valid points but I feel now it is time to present some possible solutions to the problems that many of us have with the idea of expertising. I for one have a great deal of heartburn with a few things related to the topic.
1) My biggest problem that I have with the idea is the turn around time 4 to 6 months to get my property back is in 2 words BS!
Everyone raises cane when they don't get their automobile back in a timely manner from the shop and its always considered to be the mechanics fault. I have a news flash for everyone. The mechanic is lucky to make 1/6th of what you get charged for the shop labor rate and it isn't considered a skilled trade anymore. They are just parts changers. How do I know this factoid many of you may be asking. I am a retired military fleet vehicle mechanic and even worked in the civilian sector practicing the same trade. So I can be considered an expert in that field. But I'll be the first to tell anyone listening. I am an expert of nothing. Knowledgable yes but an expert? Not by a long shot. I don't know everything. That is exactly why I am typing this thread.
Philatelic expertising should be no different. After all the only service provided is an opinion and opinions are like the forth point of contact. Everyone has one and they all stink.
2) I propose that we get back to the basics of one location that our property goes to and stays at. Not traveling through the mail services from location to location and all points in between. That is just crazy and if you ask me a poor business model. STREAMLINE THE PROCESS!!! is the point and stop projecting the taut that it is to protect an investment.
3) Old farts. Yes those of you old enough to be my parents and I am the double nickel. Teach us what you know without being condescending so the hobby doesn't go by way of the Dodo bird. Meaning extinct. I have 3 generations of children to teach. They range in age from 28 years old to 2 years old. So do the math and figure that one out.
4) I can live with the cost to a point. Because there are 3 people that are rendering an opinion/doing most of the tedious work and they too are humans with mouths to feed and bills to pay too.
So lets hear some other ideas to fix this problem not just complain about it.
Jeremy
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Sarge,
Just curious, why do you write things like this:
"I get the feeling from the direction this thread is headed in that there are some strong opinions about the topic of expertising stamps. I knew this when I started this thread and it wasn't to wake the snakes/start flame wars."
I don't see where this is heated or a flame war AT ALL. Just people sharing their opinions about expertising. I think we were talking about Washington/Franklins and you told us to be careful and that kids read the discussion board. Haha
Are you seeing something here that I'm missing??
Ernie
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01:55:49pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Ernie I'll PM you later on today. I have some other things to do right now.
Jeremy
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
It's ok man. Just more amused than anything else.
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03:06:46pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
@Anyone
How often should a certificate be replaced?
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I don't sense any flame wars at all.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
It took me all day to remember this gentleman's name and I was sad to learn that he passed in 2023. Sergio Sismondo was a giant of the hobby. He handled the treskilling yellow and many other rarities. He always seemed like this stamp savant in his glasses and was an expert in stamps from all corners of the globe. I enjoyed reading his articles in Linn's back in the day. He started expertising and it seemed like he took in the most esoteric stamps, the more mysterious the better.
https://www.linns.com/news/us-stamps-pos ...
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I just wish that I could find dealers that can be trusted that specialize in a few areas.
For example, for CSA I trust Patricia Kaufmann. Not going to be the best price, but I don't doubt it is legit.
Does anyone have a trusted seller for:
1. Early Afghanistan
2. Early Argentina (Buenos Airesm Cordoba, Corrientes) - Guillermo Jalil - guillermo@JalilStamps.com
3. Early Canada (Vancouver Island Scott #3-6 or SG #11-14)
4. Cochin China
5. Far Eastern Republic (Chita Issue)
6. German States - Ari de Boer - philatelistmagazine@gmail.com
7. Indian States - Sandeep Jaiswal - auctions@StampsInc.com
8. Karelia
9. Madagascar (British Consular Mail)
10. Malaya (Occupation)
11. Mariana Islands (early)
12. Romania (Moldavia - early)
13. New Zealand (Antarctica)
14. Nicaragua - Cabo Gracias a Dios
15. Poland (#1)
16. Tetuan
17. Thrace (1913)
18. Ukraine - 1920 Military stamps
19. Venezuela - Carupano
I saw an ad in the American Philatelist for a dealer that specializes in Indian States. Sandeep Jaiswal at www.StampsInc.com. Don't know if he is legit or not.
It would be nice to have reliable sources!
Lars
UPDATE: I will update this as I get sources. Sending emails to first 3 sources (2, 6, and 7) today.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I recommend jalilstamps.com for Argentina
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
"I recommend jalilstamps.com for Argentina"
Excellent! Thank you for the tip!
Lars
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09:59:06am
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
My 2 cents take on this subject.
I don't use "expertising services" my stamp collection is not an investiment, I collect for pleasure. My collection is worthless, but valuable in research value!
I think stamp collectors (other than myself) uses expertising services with the idea of selling their collection for high dollar sometime in the future.
Now then how often should a cert. be had. Let's say you see a stamp which you consider important for your collection and you want it and consider it worth a $1,000.000. It has a cert. that is 20 years old, or maybe just 10 years old. The seller wants $900.00 for the stamp, are you going to purchase this stamp with a cert. 10 or 20 years old, or do you a new cert.?
Just my personal thinking of this subject. No offense intended!
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
1899.....among many things, what is the CV of this example?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
29 Mar 2025
04:01:45pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I sort of agree with 1899 on this one! If I am about to buy an expensive stamp and it already comes with a certificate then that's fantastic! But, almost as important as that is how much I trust the seller. Have I had good luck with this person? A lot of my pricey stuff comes from someone I have been buying from for over 50 years (him and his father) and always with great results! I also don't really care that much for the value of the stamps. I do put CV's on many of the stamps but that's mainly to help out the next person! I have never sent a stamp to be certified, I figure I know as much about some of the stamps as some certifiers do anyway! If you are only getting certificates to make yourself feel a bit better it seems to me you are spending a lot of money just for that brief bit of pleasure - of course all IMHO!!
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
It would be a combination of how old, and who issued it?
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
CV??
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
29 Mar 2025
05:50:56pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
CV - Catalog Value, for me Scott's
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06:59:11pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
CV (this was just a made up stamp ie example)
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08:43:26pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Sismondo's library was sold country by country by Dutch country auctions. I got the France and Morocco boxes. It was a bit of a let down to discover that there was little more to expertising than what I had already found in Bellefonte.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Were copies of the certs that he had issued for the respective countries included in the country lots?
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11:53:11pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Found on ebay tonight.
There must be a story behind this cert., but the seller did not provide one.
SOR members have any ideas?
I for one think the expertising service took advantage of the submitter.
I think the cert. is readable.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Who in their right mind would send such a cheap stamp for a cert?
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I wonder if the submitter throught it was more valuable than it was.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
"Who in their right mind would send such a cheap stamp for a cert?"
Sometimes the expertising people will sell a block (25, 50 etc.) of submissions; there are deals out there where its not that expensive. Folks will take a common stamp that, to the average layman, looks "old" (so it must be valuable, right?) and obtain a cert.
He's asking $25 for a 25c stamp. An unitiated person who is new to the hobby sees this and thinks that since its certified it must be a "good deal". They hit "buy it now" and voila! Nice profit.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Except I think the Certification itself cost at least the $25 - after ebay fees the seller is probably losing money if they were the original owner of the cert.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
@Josh,
I could be proven wrong but I'm fairly certain that, if purchased in bulk, bundles of cert. submissions could be had for MUCH less than $25 each.
I just looked at their website. It seems to say that the minimum price tag is $25 but I guarantee they offer some sort of volume pricing. They also often give a certain number of freebies when you first sign up.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I sent a very nice Canada small queen for certifying. It was mint, and I thought ,just maybe, it was a pricier color variety. Well, I was correct on my color thoughts, but it was also regummed (which IMO should be priced as VF used). I didn't quite break even on the subsequent sale of the stamp when cert cost was thrown in. Oh well, some times that's just the way it works out. If I had known it was regummed I would not have had it certified. When it came back, I sill didn't recognize why it was not OG.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
30 Mar 2025
09:22:32am
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Why do we just assume the certifier is always right? I've been playing around with stamps for a very long time as most of you have as well, maybe we know as much as some of the certifiers do!!
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10:25:52am
Auctions - Approvals
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
I must admit that If I was going to buy a "certified" stamp I would want to examine it myself PHYSICALLY.
Otherwise "Buyer Beware!"
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02:42:51pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Ernie,
I apologize for not sending a PM to you and after thinking about the questions you asked me on this thread a few posts back and after thinking about how to answer them. I feel that it will better serve everyone here to understand my thinking after you asked me on the open forum. For what is worth. If I have to explain my posts in detail for all to understand. There is only one way to sum it up. It is just my writing style more-over no harm is meant by them and if no one can understand that then I'm sorry for your luck.
Secondly when the topic of minors participating with the topics on this forum came up again. Spoiler alert there is one that I know of who routinely participates and has sent me PM's not that is really anyones business but it is true and I will not reveal his name because that would be very irresponsible of me to do so. I have also corresponded with him outside of this forum only after making contact with his parents. Which is the only responsible way to talk metaphorically speaking via the internet or snail mail for that matter of course to a child that is not my own. But the point is they are present and do participate with the forum.
I hope that this explains it.
Now to get back to what this discussion is really about which is philatelic expertising services. Is it not? I just want let everyone know that a lot of great points have been made. Keep them coming.
From what I understand from all of the posts besides my own is.
1) Cost is a big issue. At least for me it is and I am sure others feel the same way.
2) Turn around time is another huge issue I have which I explained in the opening post.
3) The integrity of the servicer is a big one. For example: The one I was inquiring about my stamp that has a 65 year old Certificate by SG ( SG# 35 North China with the grey overprint ) and questioned why it wasn't placed in the catalog as a variety back in 1960 when it was identified as such and SG said on the certificate that they would the following year. Here is another example after doing some tire kicking if you will and seriously considering sending the stamp I mentioned in the previous sentence. I had a servicer ask me to donate it to their reference collection because they didn't have one. That request is big reason why I started this thread. That request made me very angry and I will never conduct any business with them.
4) Protecting ones investment is another tout that bugs the snot out of me. Protecting an investment isn't really an issue for me because I like 1899 said in one of his posts. I don't buy valuable stamps I discover them. Research and educating myself and others when I can is the biggest return/pleasure I get from the hobby. Money from the sale of a stamp isn't a priority of mine.
Jeremy
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Yo Sarge,
Like I said before, no worries man; all is well. I was just impressed with your passion. At the end of the day, it's just stamps Dawg.
Ernie
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09:58:39pm
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
cjd:
"Were copies of the certs that he had issued for the respective countries included in the country lots?"
No certs or the like. Just books and journals. They were troves of very useful resources.
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re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
"They were troves of very useful resources."
I can only imagine. I have quite a few of their bookplates (ex libris), in volumes purchased over the years; usually in books that they were updating to newer editions. There must have been gold there in the items that they weren't parting with during life.
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11:39:39am
re: How do you all feel about expertising services?
Thank you for the Latin word of the day.
Jeremy
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