Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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11:53:16am
I've noticed that a few times Mel, if I was a seller it might tick me off a little. In most cases the person is a new seller and possibly hasn't read the rules yet!
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We do have rules. Recently we added a "first time" check in for new members selling for the first time in Auction and Approval. They need to demonstrate they understand; those who don't get it right are rejected and asked to redo it. So there should be little excuse for new members.
Auctioneers do have the ability to grant waivers for books that are below the rule; we sometimes grant the waiver when it makes sense to us, but we don't do it with frequency.
Those who encounter such a book are free to contact one of the auctioneers (music man, smauggie, me) and alert us; if you do, please supply us with a link. We'll take a look.
David
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I never have understood the rationale for the 100 item minimum. Can someone illuminate?
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If I remember correctly, the original group that established rules set that as a minimum; I believe Ralph is the sole member of that group also still an SOR member. He might be able to explain the rationale.
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The group that created Approvals wanted a simple practical platform to allow members to sell the low value stamps that we all have extras and that are impossible to find in most dealers stock, because too low in price. It wanted to remove the quantity of low value stamps that cluttered the Auction platform, and move them to a new platform that would be easy to sort through. Categories were set up to follow the Auctions system at the time. (The Auction categories have been upgraded since then). Initially the limit was 200 stamps in specific categories or groupings (As defined in the Auction Structure) with no mixed categories and no worldwide. Stamps had to fit in categories that collectors could easily search through, and the books would have to be orderly, with no defective stamps, and no stamps scattered around, duplicates were limited to 3 stamps unless featuring cancellations, and duplicates had to be grouped. So even 200 stamps is less as duplicates were allowed.
After much discussion, the limit was lowered to 100 stamps to help beginners who did not have large inventories of duplicates. If you did not have 100 of one country or topic, you were allowed to group a few countries together, as long as they were related...ie " Rest Europe" or Middle East etc... but it did not permit a mix of anything goes..no worldwide. A structure and order was always a requirement
Later a category for hi-values was created and a category of Large was also established to sell sets and covers...basically expensive or larger offerings. These had limits of 20 items, and allowed a mix of items with no restriction on structure!
Quite frankly in my opinion, Approvals, while since very popular, has degraded in quality to the point of having little resemblance to the original product. Not all books and not all sellers, I must add...some books are gems of organization and beauty!
So why have 100 items? Legitimate question. Why not 50? Why any limit? Well the real number is 20 today, if you stick a Large label on it! Why have any limit????
By using Worldwide, with our looser rules, you can throw just about anything including floor droppings, in any order, and label it as an Approval Book, so really if you cannot meet a minimum number and follow the degraded and very loose current requirements of the 3 allowed types of books, maybe you have no business selling on Approvals.
rrr...
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rrraphy has given a good description of events leading up to the present situation.
What I would like to point out that today there are 660 Approval Books for members to peruse. A few months back it was 500 and a few years ago it was around 400 Books.
Some Books are "live" for 6 months others are taken down within a few weeks.
rraphy shows his predujices with regards to the turn of phrase that he uses ie "floor sweepings". Yet he initially states that the reason behind the Approval Books was:-
"It wanted to remove the quantity of low value stamps that cluttered the Auction platform"
You cannot have it both ways. Besides the average selling price of an individual item in the Approvals is around 25 cents.
From a sellers point of view it is ideal to list items and countries in order which is fine if you have them all ready lined up in a stock book and you can value and describe as per catalogue.
One CANNOT do so easily if you are picking them out at random from an album or box and having to jump from page to page in a catalogue or even worse clicking from one computer screen to the next one required.
It takes a heck of a lot of time to prepare a book and it is hit and miss for the seller whether the items sell or not.
The current system is flexible, meets sellers requirements and buyers can flick through whatever category they desire.
I remind folkies that there can be no buyers without sellers and no sellers without buyers. It is a symbiotic relationship.
EDIT
Of course out of 1000+ members only approximately 41 list books in the Approvals so the choice is limited.
Why not list a couple of books to increase the choice for fellow members?
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I find with a smaller book, I am able to focus more on the stamps, and give the buyer a cleaner experience than if I had 200 items.
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Ian:
"What I would like to point out that today there are 660 Approval Books for members to peruse. A few months back it was 500 and a few years ago it was around 400 Books."
There is no question that relaxing the rules for Approval Books has created more books.
But quantity is not everything Ian. Just looking at "Recently added Books" as of now (not a statistical analysis, just a snapshot, but valid since most sales occur in the first few days).
There were 78 Books listed as New Books Of the 78 books only 6 books had sales over 50%...that is a mere 8%
And 11 books had sales between 25 and 50% (14%)
So having a lot of books has not translated into sales volume...as a matter of fact I would bet you that overall sales in number sold (and possibly value of sales) are down, from when we just had 300 to 400 books, that averaged 50% sales figures. Yes, I know about saturation, but we have more members as well.
More telling, the number of books with sales of less than 5% is 32% of the total!
Here is a table for those who care (snap shot):
Over 50% sold 8%
25 to 50% sold 14%
10 to 25% sold 29%
5 to 10 % sold 17%
less than 5% sold 32%
Total (78 Books)
Putting an Approval Book out demands lots of work, I agree, so how many sellers will continue to post books with such low sales percentages?
Now I know more sales will come later, even though 90% of the sales occur in the first few days. But this is just an illustration, yet quite telling!
Now Ian you are misunderstanding my comments about floor sweepings...I am not talking about the value of the stamps but about the organization of the books. Approval Books are not Grab boxes. Also, Approval books with higher value stamps than the minimum are vital to a seller's success.
Books randomly thrown together, as some are, in spite of our having specific rules, will get watched by prospective buyers once, or twice, and then I suspect that buyers will ignore this seller thereafter. I do! I am sure others do it too, unless you have nothing else to do!
I do have a strong prejudice against disorganized books. Even if you are pulling material from a box, it is not a lot of extra work to group the stamps before slapping them on a page. Taking you as an example, you go the extra distance of listing category numbers and catalog value, and structuring your books, so even if they seem randomly placed, and listed as WW (and they are not randomly placed), your books still warrant a good look.....I wish others would put a minimum effort to organize their books, no matter what title they slap on them. Go take a look. We should be encouraging better organized books.
I, for one, do not think that having just 49 percent of listed books barely achieve sales of 10% is anything to brag about!
I realize this is a snap picture... but you get the general idea!
rrr...
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Taking a "snapshot" is not grounds for drawing conclusions about a system. One must "do the math" over a period of time.
Making assumptions like only looking at "78 New Books" out of 660 Current Books is no indicator. Basing conclusions on 11.81% of the number of books is folly.
One also has to take into account the number of Sellers, the number of Buyers, the no of items listed, the number of items sold and the sales/value of each.
One then has to look at individual sellers and what they have listed, the price of items, the sales they have made and to whom.
Once one has done all that then maybe, just maybe one is in a position to draw correct conclusions and recommend fact based changes.
If every seller is listing within the Rules then fine, if some sellers are not adhereing to the Rules then it is surely a MANAGEMENT problem.
If Management do not respond to Rule Breaking or complaints then it is MANAGEMENTS problem and no amount of continual pointing out the same "fault" will change anything.
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rraphy
In addition to the above post.
I do not worry or care what other sellers do as long as it is within the rules.
Why?
Cos the more sellers that produce "floor sweeping" Books the better.
Then my fantastic Books with Individually described items at good prices are even more attractive to buyers!!!
You see there is method in my madness......
.......
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For the record,
"If Management do not respond to Rule Breaking or complaints then it is MANAGEMENTS problem and no amount of continual pointing out the same "fault" will change anything."
Management responds to all complaints where we're given information that allows us to find the lot in question. However, we do not intercede in cases where we're told someone didn't obey the rules and left to track things down without the offending URL.
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"we do not intercede in cases where we're told someone didn't obey the rules and left to track things down without the offending URL."
Maybe some kind of statement like that should be added to the Rules?
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I always take the extra time to organize my approvals, and add very detailed descriptions.
Maybe, that helps with sales?
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12:03:57pm
I doubt the descriptions (beyond catalog #) help much, but your most egregious breaking of the rules is the overlapping of the stamps and cutting off the edges of stamps in some of your images.
Please review the rules. Those are the things that will turn most buyers off, not the size of the book.
The basic problem with small books is the buyer trying to find enough to to buy to warrant the postage costs.
Roy
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@Roy
yes, but MusicMan said he will let this book continue, even with the as such mentioned faults.
Also, as Rrraphy stated, I think in this post, is that really the minimum is 20 I guess?
-Ari
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here are the Approval rules applying to lot minimums:
G18a. There are three types of approval books that must contain the following minimum items:
• Standard Book: requires a minimum of 100 items, mostly single stamps
• High Value Book ($$$): requires minimum 20 items with a minimum price of $3.00 for each item
• Large Items Book: requires minimum 20 items (can be alone or in combination), such as covers, souvenir sheets. minitaure sheets, sets, blocks, multiples, and may include single stamps as long as those are not the main focus of the book.
G18b. High Value Books ($$$) are required to comply with the following minimum requirements:
• contain only single stamps (postal stationary is fine) and/or complete sets
• have at least 20 items per book
• contain philatelic items with a $3.00 minimum selling price
• not contain bulk lots of single stamps
• identify each item by catalog number
• provide a citation of the catalog used, and the catalog year of publication
• not contain damaged, altered, fake, counterfeit, etc. items.
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I believe what I said was, I would let it go this time but next one should be properly put together.
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Yes, I know, and I appreciate that.
I already have a plan for meeting the threshold on the next book.
Though, would anyone consider lowering it even by 25 stamps?
I coul probably always do a 75 stamp minimunm.
In the case of this upcoming book, if I combine BOB and Revenues, and a few front of the books, I SHOULD be able to make it.
-Ari
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This may upset some folkies.
Should we introduce a new Junior Approval Book of say 50 stamps for the Junior members under the age of 18?
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@Brenchenite
That is a good idea, but instead of calling it a junior approval book, maybe Small Book, or Specific book, where it is limited to a certain category?
I wonder if SoR management would consider this.
It does not have to be for only 18 and under, sometimes other people want to post a small amount of items without going through the much more tedious, per item auction procces.
Yes, I'm aware you can just sell a lot, but sometimes it is better to do approvals, right?
-Ari
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Approvals
Just an observation. I have noticed in some of the approvals that the seller is not following Rule G18a for approval selling. i.e. single items, but a lot less than 100 items as required. Some are only a couple of pages with less than 50 items. I am trying to put together some approval books that I believe will sell, but am having a hard time trying to meet the rules set out. If the new policy has changed, I need to know so that putting books together will be a lot easier.
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22 Mar 2025
11:53:16am
re: Not Following Approval Rules
I've noticed that a few times Mel, if I was a seller it might tick me off a little. In most cases the person is a new seller and possibly hasn't read the rules yet!
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
We do have rules. Recently we added a "first time" check in for new members selling for the first time in Auction and Approval. They need to demonstrate they understand; those who don't get it right are rejected and asked to redo it. So there should be little excuse for new members.
Auctioneers do have the ability to grant waivers for books that are below the rule; we sometimes grant the waiver when it makes sense to us, but we don't do it with frequency.
Those who encounter such a book are free to contact one of the auctioneers (music man, smauggie, me) and alert us; if you do, please supply us with a link. We'll take a look.
David
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
I never have understood the rationale for the 100 item minimum. Can someone illuminate?
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
If I remember correctly, the original group that established rules set that as a minimum; I believe Ralph is the sole member of that group also still an SOR member. He might be able to explain the rationale.
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
The group that created Approvals wanted a simple practical platform to allow members to sell the low value stamps that we all have extras and that are impossible to find in most dealers stock, because too low in price. It wanted to remove the quantity of low value stamps that cluttered the Auction platform, and move them to a new platform that would be easy to sort through. Categories were set up to follow the Auctions system at the time. (The Auction categories have been upgraded since then). Initially the limit was 200 stamps in specific categories or groupings (As defined in the Auction Structure) with no mixed categories and no worldwide. Stamps had to fit in categories that collectors could easily search through, and the books would have to be orderly, with no defective stamps, and no stamps scattered around, duplicates were limited to 3 stamps unless featuring cancellations, and duplicates had to be grouped. So even 200 stamps is less as duplicates were allowed.
After much discussion, the limit was lowered to 100 stamps to help beginners who did not have large inventories of duplicates. If you did not have 100 of one country or topic, you were allowed to group a few countries together, as long as they were related...ie " Rest Europe" or Middle East etc... but it did not permit a mix of anything goes..no worldwide. A structure and order was always a requirement
Later a category for hi-values was created and a category of Large was also established to sell sets and covers...basically expensive or larger offerings. These had limits of 20 items, and allowed a mix of items with no restriction on structure!
Quite frankly in my opinion, Approvals, while since very popular, has degraded in quality to the point of having little resemblance to the original product. Not all books and not all sellers, I must add...some books are gems of organization and beauty!
So why have 100 items? Legitimate question. Why not 50? Why any limit? Well the real number is 20 today, if you stick a Large label on it! Why have any limit????
By using Worldwide, with our looser rules, you can throw just about anything including floor droppings, in any order, and label it as an Approval Book, so really if you cannot meet a minimum number and follow the degraded and very loose current requirements of the 3 allowed types of books, maybe you have no business selling on Approvals.
rrr...
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08:12:09pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
rrraphy has given a good description of events leading up to the present situation.
What I would like to point out that today there are 660 Approval Books for members to peruse. A few months back it was 500 and a few years ago it was around 400 Books.
Some Books are "live" for 6 months others are taken down within a few weeks.
rraphy shows his predujices with regards to the turn of phrase that he uses ie "floor sweepings". Yet he initially states that the reason behind the Approval Books was:-
"It wanted to remove the quantity of low value stamps that cluttered the Auction platform"
You cannot have it both ways. Besides the average selling price of an individual item in the Approvals is around 25 cents.
From a sellers point of view it is ideal to list items and countries in order which is fine if you have them all ready lined up in a stock book and you can value and describe as per catalogue.
One CANNOT do so easily if you are picking them out at random from an album or box and having to jump from page to page in a catalogue or even worse clicking from one computer screen to the next one required.
It takes a heck of a lot of time to prepare a book and it is hit and miss for the seller whether the items sell or not.
The current system is flexible, meets sellers requirements and buyers can flick through whatever category they desire.
I remind folkies that there can be no buyers without sellers and no sellers without buyers. It is a symbiotic relationship.
EDIT
Of course out of 1000+ members only approximately 41 list books in the Approvals so the choice is limited.
Why not list a couple of books to increase the choice for fellow members?
4 Members
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Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
I find with a smaller book, I am able to focus more on the stamps, and give the buyer a cleaner experience than if I had 200 items.
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
Ian:
"What I would like to point out that today there are 660 Approval Books for members to peruse. A few months back it was 500 and a few years ago it was around 400 Books."
There is no question that relaxing the rules for Approval Books has created more books.
But quantity is not everything Ian. Just looking at "Recently added Books" as of now (not a statistical analysis, just a snapshot, but valid since most sales occur in the first few days).
There were 78 Books listed as New Books Of the 78 books only 6 books had sales over 50%...that is a mere 8%
And 11 books had sales between 25 and 50% (14%)
So having a lot of books has not translated into sales volume...as a matter of fact I would bet you that overall sales in number sold (and possibly value of sales) are down, from when we just had 300 to 400 books, that averaged 50% sales figures. Yes, I know about saturation, but we have more members as well.
More telling, the number of books with sales of less than 5% is 32% of the total!
Here is a table for those who care (snap shot):
Over 50% sold 8%
25 to 50% sold 14%
10 to 25% sold 29%
5 to 10 % sold 17%
less than 5% sold 32%
Total (78 Books)
Putting an Approval Book out demands lots of work, I agree, so how many sellers will continue to post books with such low sales percentages?
Now I know more sales will come later, even though 90% of the sales occur in the first few days. But this is just an illustration, yet quite telling!
Now Ian you are misunderstanding my comments about floor sweepings...I am not talking about the value of the stamps but about the organization of the books. Approval Books are not Grab boxes. Also, Approval books with higher value stamps than the minimum are vital to a seller's success.
Books randomly thrown together, as some are, in spite of our having specific rules, will get watched by prospective buyers once, or twice, and then I suspect that buyers will ignore this seller thereafter. I do! I am sure others do it too, unless you have nothing else to do!
I do have a strong prejudice against disorganized books. Even if you are pulling material from a box, it is not a lot of extra work to group the stamps before slapping them on a page. Taking you as an example, you go the extra distance of listing category numbers and catalog value, and structuring your books, so even if they seem randomly placed, and listed as WW (and they are not randomly placed), your books still warrant a good look.....I wish others would put a minimum effort to organize their books, no matter what title they slap on them. Go take a look. We should be encouraging better organized books.
I, for one, do not think that having just 49 percent of listed books barely achieve sales of 10% is anything to brag about!
I realize this is a snap picture... but you get the general idea!
rrr...
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02:58:03pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
Taking a "snapshot" is not grounds for drawing conclusions about a system. One must "do the math" over a period of time.
Making assumptions like only looking at "78 New Books" out of 660 Current Books is no indicator. Basing conclusions on 11.81% of the number of books is folly.
One also has to take into account the number of Sellers, the number of Buyers, the no of items listed, the number of items sold and the sales/value of each.
One then has to look at individual sellers and what they have listed, the price of items, the sales they have made and to whom.
Once one has done all that then maybe, just maybe one is in a position to draw correct conclusions and recommend fact based changes.
If every seller is listing within the Rules then fine, if some sellers are not adhereing to the Rules then it is surely a MANAGEMENT problem.
If Management do not respond to Rule Breaking or complaints then it is MANAGEMENTS problem and no amount of continual pointing out the same "fault" will change anything.
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07:41:08pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
rraphy
In addition to the above post.
I do not worry or care what other sellers do as long as it is within the rules.
Why?
Cos the more sellers that produce "floor sweeping" Books the better.
Then my fantastic Books with Individually described items at good prices are even more attractive to buyers!!!
You see there is method in my madness.............
1 Member
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
For the record,
"If Management do not respond to Rule Breaking or complaints then it is MANAGEMENTS problem and no amount of continual pointing out the same "fault" will change anything."
Management responds to all complaints where we're given information that allows us to find the lot in question. However, we do not intercede in cases where we're told someone didn't obey the rules and left to track things down without the offending URL.
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08:40:09pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
"we do not intercede in cases where we're told someone didn't obey the rules and left to track things down without the offending URL."
Maybe some kind of statement like that should be added to the Rules?
1 Member
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Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
I always take the extra time to organize my approvals, and add very detailed descriptions.
Maybe, that helps with sales?
1 Member
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
24 Mar 2025
12:03:57pm
re: Not Following Approval Rules
I doubt the descriptions (beyond catalog #) help much, but your most egregious breaking of the rules is the overlapping of the stamps and cutting off the edges of stamps in some of your images.
Please review the rules. Those are the things that will turn most buyers off, not the size of the book.
The basic problem with small books is the buyer trying to find enough to to buy to warrant the postage costs.
Roy
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Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
@Roy
yes, but MusicMan said he will let this book continue, even with the as such mentioned faults.
Also, as Rrraphy stated, I think in this post, is that really the minimum is 20 I guess?
-Ari
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
here are the Approval rules applying to lot minimums:
G18a. There are three types of approval books that must contain the following minimum items:
• Standard Book: requires a minimum of 100 items, mostly single stamps
• High Value Book ($$$): requires minimum 20 items with a minimum price of $3.00 for each item
• Large Items Book: requires minimum 20 items (can be alone or in combination), such as covers, souvenir sheets. minitaure sheets, sets, blocks, multiples, and may include single stamps as long as those are not the main focus of the book.
G18b. High Value Books ($$$) are required to comply with the following minimum requirements:
• contain only single stamps (postal stationary is fine) and/or complete sets
• have at least 20 items per book
• contain philatelic items with a $3.00 minimum selling price
• not contain bulk lots of single stamps
• identify each item by catalog number
• provide a citation of the catalog used, and the catalog year of publication
• not contain damaged, altered, fake, counterfeit, etc. items.
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re: Not Following Approval Rules
I believe what I said was, I would let it go this time but next one should be properly put together.
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Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
Yes, I know, and I appreciate that.
I already have a plan for meeting the threshold on the next book.
Though, would anyone consider lowering it even by 25 stamps?
I coul probably always do a 75 stamp minimunm.
In the case of this upcoming book, if I combine BOB and Revenues, and a few front of the books, I SHOULD be able to make it.
-Ari
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03:18:05pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
This may upset some folkies.
Should we introduce a new Junior Approval Book of say 50 stamps for the Junior members under the age of 18?
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Approvals
re: Not Following Approval Rules
@Brenchenite
That is a good idea, but instead of calling it a junior approval book, maybe Small Book, or Specific book, where it is limited to a certain category?
I wonder if SoR management would consider this.
It does not have to be for only 18 and under, sometimes other people want to post a small amount of items without going through the much more tedious, per item auction procces.
Yes, I'm aware you can just sell a lot, but sometimes it is better to do approvals, right?
-Ari
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