Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
06:16:45pm
Also there is an incredibly expensive 78c in black lilac. It sure would be nice to come across that one but a certificate would be needed!!!!
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I thought it was the Scott #70 that had the multiple colors.
See also: The Swedish Tiger
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Both 70 and 78 are the same design and come in multiple shades, some quite rare. 78, 78a, 78b, and 78c are called Lilac, Grayish Lilac, Gray and Blackish Violet. But I am not sure anyone can reliably tell the difference. If you look at online databases (Siegel, PF, etal) you will see considerable variation in what color a 78 looks like.
Below is a typical S.78 Lilac (from Siegel):
And here are two of my stamps that I have labeled currently as 78s:
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A good color gauge, such as the wonder color gauge lists all those colors and should do the trick.
For Higher-Value colors, a certificate is always a good idea!
-Ari 
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08:13:50pm
"But I am not sure anyone can reliably tell the difference."
Your top one looks sort of "lilacy" but I've seen lilacs that are much more lilac!! All in all I still think I have two grays and a gray lilac but it is awful hard to tell for sure. So I think I'll just make believe I have three very nice stamps in shades of gray and lilac - that's safe!!! I'll just call each one 78?!
EDIT: Actually all three stamps shown by "Banknoteguy" look more like lilac than any of my three do! Thanks very much for showing!! Maybe if I can figure out eventually which of mine are 78a or 78b you might want to trade one of yours for one of mine - just a thought! The prices are quite similar, between $350 and $450 used. Of course 78c used runs at about $20 000!
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Suggest an experient for someone to try and report back the results!
Just like the Bluish paper stamps, try using different colored papers and see if this helps to determine the correct color?
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@Harvey
Someone once told me use yellow paper.
I don't have any of these stamps or I would upload an image of mine.
Good luck!
-Ari
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I guess I did not make my point clearly. With 70/78 there are various shades but even experts don't seem to agree. It seems a mess to me.
To illustrate, the image below is comprised of three recent stamps in Siegel auctions. All with PSE certs (you can do the same thing for PF certs). These are all certified as S.78 Lilac. I see three different shades. But maybe experts see something I don't? Since they are all recent and from the same auction house, I would think the photography or scanners would be identical so it seems to me one ought to be able to compare online.
It just seems like S.78 Lilac covers a lot of ground, shadewise.
Color is difficult enough to compare in hand -- you have to use identical light sources. But for computer based color comparisons there are lots more caveats, so maybe my expectations are off base.
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Hoo boy. That's a tough one. The first one definitely looks lilac.
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08:42:55pm
Colour in early US stamps is very difficult since we all see them differently. I personally think since most colour guides are different they are useless as well. They also change after a period of time. I remember something my wife said once when looking at some old Washington or Franklin stamp, "How many ways can you say the colour red?"! I'll find a piece of yellow paper, put the three stamps on it and let you know what I come up with. I think my three stamps are 78a's and b's. I also have three different shades of #70, but I'm not goin' there!!!!
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Check ebay for 70 & 78's that come with a certificate as to color, for what ever it's worth!
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It’s nearly impossible to determine different nuances of colors and shades with the human eye in stamps or anything else. Reds seem to be the most problematic for me at least and the color charts aren’t much help either. I even tried to make my own color chart from stamps only printed in one shade of red. Add the fact of color degradation and it’s a guess. I now list the shades in my collection as the same number. There are machines that can tell the difference but I could never afford one. I wonder sometimes how even the experts are certain.
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10:53:16am
"There are machines that can tell the difference"
I have never heard of this before! How expensive are they? What colour system do they use? I know there are many shades of red in early US stamps, carmine rose, rose, dull rose, reddish vermillion, vermillion, violet carmine, red, etc. Would the machine use these names or would it operate in a totally different system. I'm mainly just curious, I really doubt if I'd actually buy it!
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There is a free software: GColor2
I have not used it, it seems a little...
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There is a free software: GColor2
I have not used it, it seems a little outdated.
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I worked in a printing shop that had a machine similar to the one below. We did a job for the UPS NASCAR that had to be their exact color brown. It seems UPS has a copyright on the color. They sent us a sample color swatch. The spectrometer aligns the dye sample to the swatch. The machine would tell us all the different color dyes to use to achieve the swatch color. They guy running the machine told me dark colors require multiple tests because they absorb more light than lighter colors. We had to sign a non disclosure agreement with UPS as to the color formula and had to return the swatch.
Model No: TX-CMC 100
Brand:
Testronix Instruments
Colours have an application in all industries and hence the manufacturers industries focus on the quality and consistency of the colour of the products manufactured by them. The colour of the product needs to have a perfect shade and intensity and must match industry standards. To achieve this, a color matching cabinet is used to ensure that the colours meet the required specifications accurately.
I’m sure these run into the 10’s of 1000’s if not more.
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04:18:24pm
What I "need" is a machine that allows you to put a stamp in a slot, press a button and have the machine tell you that the stamp has the colour "gray lilac". This machine is programmed with all the Scott colours and is never wrong. Is that really too much to ask? If only such a machine existed!!!
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Having long ago viewed a "trail of certs" for the same stamp submitted over a very long time span to different experts it is safe to state that differences of opinion in both identification and color happen regularly. You will note the advice is to always make sure that the stamp has a "fresh" certificate if you are spending large sums of money on a stamp variety that catalogs thousands but the normal stamp catalogs pennies. Take a look at ebay for the common civil war era 65 (or 64) in "pigeon blood pink". See how many have certs (usually one or two). The most common old description of pigeon blood pink was that it was almost identical to the 9c issue from the Presidential Series of 1938. Close your eyes and shake your head and open your eyes - how many do you see without a cert that are even close. Last time I looked there were only two that were close - both had certs. And if you collect postal history I can tell you that a #65 on a yellow cover raises your heartbeat every time. You have to mask the stamp to see the true color.
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
14 Feb 2025
06:16:45pm
I supposedly have each of these but I don't think so, I think I have 2 each of 78a (grey lilac) and one of 78b (grey), or maybe the other way round. I cannot see one that appears to be 78 (lilac). It's no sense showing a scan of the three I have because unless you look at them in the right light they all look the same. None of them really seems to be lilac! That should be fairly obvious! Can one of you US collectors out there show me a scan of #78 so I can get some idea how lilac it really is? Meanwhile when I figure out what I really have I have a spare of either 78a or 78b, really great trade bait since all three stamps are quite rare and a bit pricey!
Also there is an incredibly expensive 78c in black lilac. It sure would be nice to come across that one but a certificate would be needed!!!!
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
I thought it was the Scott #70 that had the multiple colors.
See also: The Swedish Tiger
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
Both 70 and 78 are the same design and come in multiple shades, some quite rare. 78, 78a, 78b, and 78c are called Lilac, Grayish Lilac, Gray and Blackish Violet. But I am not sure anyone can reliably tell the difference. If you look at online databases (Siegel, PF, etal) you will see considerable variation in what color a 78 looks like.
Below is a typical S.78 Lilac (from Siegel):
And here are two of my stamps that I have labeled currently as 78s:
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
A good color gauge, such as the wonder color gauge lists all those colors and should do the trick.
For Higher-Value colors, a certificate is always a good idea!
-Ari
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
14 Feb 2025
08:13:50pm
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
"But I am not sure anyone can reliably tell the difference."
Your top one looks sort of "lilacy" but I've seen lilacs that are much more lilac!! All in all I still think I have two grays and a gray lilac but it is awful hard to tell for sure. So I think I'll just make believe I have three very nice stamps in shades of gray and lilac - that's safe!!! I'll just call each one 78?!
EDIT: Actually all three stamps shown by "Banknoteguy" look more like lilac than any of my three do! Thanks very much for showing!! Maybe if I can figure out eventually which of mine are 78a or 78b you might want to trade one of yours for one of mine - just a thought! The prices are quite similar, between $350 and $450 used. Of course 78c used runs at about $20 000!
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
Suggest an experient for someone to try and report back the results!
Just like the Bluish paper stamps, try using different colored papers and see if this helps to determine the correct color?
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
@Harvey
Someone once told me use yellow paper.
I don't have any of these stamps or I would upload an image of mine.
Good luck!
-Ari
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
I guess I did not make my point clearly. With 70/78 there are various shades but even experts don't seem to agree. It seems a mess to me.
To illustrate, the image below is comprised of three recent stamps in Siegel auctions. All with PSE certs (you can do the same thing for PF certs). These are all certified as S.78 Lilac. I see three different shades. But maybe experts see something I don't? Since they are all recent and from the same auction house, I would think the photography or scanners would be identical so it seems to me one ought to be able to compare online.
It just seems like S.78 Lilac covers a lot of ground, shadewise.
Color is difficult enough to compare in hand -- you have to use identical light sources. But for computer based color comparisons there are lots more caveats, so maybe my expectations are off base.
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07:23:51pm
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
Hoo boy. That's a tough one. The first one definitely looks lilac.
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Feb 2025
08:42:55pm
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
Colour in early US stamps is very difficult since we all see them differently. I personally think since most colour guides are different they are useless as well. They also change after a period of time. I remember something my wife said once when looking at some old Washington or Franklin stamp, "How many ways can you say the colour red?"! I'll find a piece of yellow paper, put the three stamps on it and let you know what I come up with. I think my three stamps are 78a's and b's. I also have three different shades of #70, but I'm not goin' there!!!!
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
Check ebay for 70 & 78's that come with a certificate as to color, for what ever it's worth!
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re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
It’s nearly impossible to determine different nuances of colors and shades with the human eye in stamps or anything else. Reds seem to be the most problematic for me at least and the color charts aren’t much help either. I even tried to make my own color chart from stamps only printed in one shade of red. Add the fact of color degradation and it’s a guess. I now list the shades in my collection as the same number. There are machines that can tell the difference but I could never afford one. I wonder sometimes how even the experts are certain.
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
16 Feb 2025
10:53:16am
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
"There are machines that can tell the difference"
I have never heard of this before! How expensive are they? What colour system do they use? I know there are many shades of red in early US stamps, carmine rose, rose, dull rose, reddish vermillion, vermillion, violet carmine, red, etc. Would the machine use these names or would it operate in a totally different system. I'm mainly just curious, I really doubt if I'd actually buy it!
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this post
Approvals
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
There is a free software: GColor2
I have not used it, it seems a little...
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
There is a free software: GColor2
I have not used it, it seems a little outdated.
Login to Like
this post
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
I worked in a printing shop that had a machine similar to the one below. We did a job for the UPS NASCAR that had to be their exact color brown. It seems UPS has a copyright on the color. They sent us a sample color swatch. The spectrometer aligns the dye sample to the swatch. The machine would tell us all the different color dyes to use to achieve the swatch color. They guy running the machine told me dark colors require multiple tests because they absorb more light than lighter colors. We had to sign a non disclosure agreement with UPS as to the color formula and had to return the swatch.
Model No: TX-CMC 100
Brand:
Testronix Instruments
Colours have an application in all industries and hence the manufacturers industries focus on the quality and consistency of the colour of the products manufactured by them. The colour of the product needs to have a perfect shade and intensity and must match industry standards. To achieve this, a color matching cabinet is used to ensure that the colours meet the required specifications accurately.
I’m sure these run into the 10’s of 1000’s if not more.
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
16 Feb 2025
04:18:24pm
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
What I "need" is a machine that allows you to put a stamp in a slot, press a button and have the machine tell you that the stamp has the colour "gray lilac". This machine is programmed with all the Scott colours and is never wrong. Is that really too much to ask? If only such a machine existed!!!
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
05:07:33pm
re: US stamp 78, 78a and 78b
Having long ago viewed a "trail of certs" for the same stamp submitted over a very long time span to different experts it is safe to state that differences of opinion in both identification and color happen regularly. You will note the advice is to always make sure that the stamp has a "fresh" certificate if you are spending large sums of money on a stamp variety that catalogs thousands but the normal stamp catalogs pennies. Take a look at ebay for the common civil war era 65 (or 64) in "pigeon blood pink". See how many have certs (usually one or two). The most common old description of pigeon blood pink was that it was almost identical to the 9c issue from the Presidential Series of 1938. Close your eyes and shake your head and open your eyes - how many do you see without a cert that are even close. Last time I looked there were only two that were close - both had certs. And if you collect postal history I can tell you that a #65 on a yellow cover raises your heartbeat every time. You have to mask the stamp to see the true color.
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