Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Wondering if anyone has a genuine example (booklet or single stamp) and would be willing to either post a photo of the die cuts or compare to the following photos....
"Steep" die cuts
"Shallow" die cuts
Have seen this difference with other issues as well. For the 2019 Purple Heart stamp, I had a genuine, MNH block of 4 to compare, and the steeper die cuts match the MNH block.
With these flags, I haven't found any other major differences, and apparently they don't have microprinting anywhere.
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I have three 2024 flags waiting for the 2024 album pages. All three have the same 2024 microprinting as your top stamp. Two dots for the bottom line of both 2's. The die cuts look legit, but these are coils. Do you suspect the bottom stamp to be fake? If so, that will be easy to ID. I'll keep looking!
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The dates both look legit to me based on the “normal variation” on other issues. These dot printings are not the same from stamp to stamp but I don’t know for sure.
The die cuts are likely what will be important, and why it would be helpful to find a genuine example.
Both these and the 2019 Purple Heart were printed by BCA. Not sure if that matters but I am considering everything at this point. Have seen this die cut difference on a couple other issues too. It’s odd because if you go to the USPS website or to a site like APS or virtual stamp club - they all have pictures of the stamps. All show stamps with the “shallow” style of die cuts. But the genuine block of 4 that I know I purchased at the post office has the “steeper” die cuts. And a lot of the shallow die cuts examples glow differently under SWUV
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I believe the stamp at the top is the fake one. Below is a scan from a genuine booklet. On booklets (and panes), there are elongated die cuts where the vertical and horizontal intersect. This is highlighted in the scan. Note that the horizontal die cut "slopes down", going left to right, at the intersection. With this configuration, the horizontal die cutting at the lower right corner ends with a peak and has the shape as highlighted. The horizontal die cutting on the top stamp in the original post ends with a valley.
This feature can not always be used to determine genuineness. On most recent booklets printed by BCA, the die cutting on the front (8 stamp side) and back (12 stamp side) are different. The 8 stamp side has the "slopes down" configuration at the intersection of the vertical and horizontal while the 12 stamp side is "slopes up". A recent example is the 2024 Madonna and Child booklet. Below are scans of both sides.
Front
Back
On the 2024 BCA Flag booklets, both sides are "slopes down". Whether the two sides are the same or different seems to be related to the size of the stamps, with booklets of smaller stamps, like Flag definitives, being the same on both sides, while larger stamps have the different configurations.
If you can't find one or the other booklet at a post office, you can order directly from Stamp Fulfillment. The BCA booklet is item number 684902 and the AP booklet is 684904. You can't make this distinction in an online order; you have to call.
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What an excellent post tommcf!!
It appears to show that the genuine die cuts are the “shallow” ones.
Thank you, thank you, thank you
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Wow! I learned a lot!
Though, what about the counterfeits? DO they have there own imperfect or different die cuts?
That would probably be the way to ID them right?
Any thoughts?
-Ari 
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Die cuts on earlier counterfeits used to be one of the first clues that they weren’t genuine. Not so much anymore - sometimes the shape will be a bit off (like the flags above) but sometimes there isn’t any difference as far as I can tell.
That makes other details like microprinting, word size and font, and tagging very helpful
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Very true!
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It's true that the counterfeiters are getting better with die cutting. But there are still a lot of older fakes available that can be identified by die cutting. The fakers seemed to have particular difficulties with the intersections. And even with better quality die cutting, mistakes can still be made.
Here are a few fakes that are for sale on eBay today, all from the same seller.
Here's the back of a Cactus Flowers booklet with the "slopes down" configuration. It should be "slopes up" on the back.
Regardless of which configuration appears on a given booklet, it should be consistent across that side. Here are a couple of booklets that don't meet that test.
2011 Christmas Baubles booklet that switches to "slopes up" in the third block of 4
Gingerbread Houses booklet with the same mistake.
2020 Our Lady of Guapulo. The die cutting is higher quality but still not consistent.
Full pane of $5 Floral Geometry. The intersecting die cuts are a total mess. I've only highlighted a few.
And here's a coil PNC strip with plate number P1111 which would indicate an Ashton Potter printing, but the die cutting more closely matches the BCA version.
The die cutting on Ashton Potter coils of 100 should end with a straight line at top and bottom as in the strip below. The amount of the straight line visible can vary depending on how accurately the printed web is sliced into coils.
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Are those identified on eBay as fakes?
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WOW!
That is so much great info.
I'm going to keep a closer eye on the die cuts now.
-Ari
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None of the items I posted above are identified as fakes by the seller.
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12:28:36pm
No offence meant to people who collect the newer material... but I'm really glad I don't!! Is this material being faked so it can be sold on line for postage or it it done for philatelic reasons? Just curious, but my guess is the first reason!
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The counterfeits I am finding have gone through the mail to pay bills.
Every time I turn on the computer it seems there is a new ad for half price stamps.
Even found some counterfeits in my own album - the 2022 pony cars - I had replaced two with ones that had better postmarks but then discovered those new ones were fake (difference in the font of the date and a very coarse dot matrix print job) even though you couldn’t tell by just looking at them.
It’s really amazing and annoying. Our post office has one black and white 8x11 sheet of paper under glass on a table in the waiting area - it is a statement about not buying discount stamps. Not eye catching and I bet most never even notice it. And those that do are not the ones ordering stamps off the internet anyway.
Very glad I started collecting before the age of widespread counterfeits. Am very likely going to stop my USA collection at the end of 2025.
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These counterfeits are being made by China to be sold to the public to raise money and disrupt finances in the country where they are being sold.
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I have not much discussion of die cuts by the USSS (United States Stamp Society). The PNC3 does cover this more.
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Since we began this discussion, I have been checking the date on 2024 stamps in a box of kiloware that I have as well as the booklet stamps of my own that I am using. I find that in 2024 both the two dot and multiple dot (looks like 5 dots) versions that make up the bottom line of both twos are used. I even find both versions on the same booklet pane and on adjacent stamps, maybe to make it harder to counterfeit. On the real stamps, the bottom line of both twos are perfectly straight pointing at 3 o'clock.
However, I have found 7 postally used stamps where the bottom lines of the two's are off kilter pointing up or down or, in some cases the entire digit is tilted slightly. The dots on these don't look like dots either. I believe these to be fakes. Has anyone else observed this?
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I should point out that the stamps are the flags both booklet and coils but one is a snowflake Christmas stamp, booklet type.
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Also, under UV light, all seven glow yellow, I guess coming from the ink that was used, not like a tag. My booklet stamps (real) do not glow at all.
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Have found two different die cuts and wondering which one is real. Have been to all area post offices and none stock these (BCA, double-sided booklet of 20). The image size is 18.25 x 21 mm and all have a high gloss finish.
Wondering if anyone has a genuine example (booklet or single stamp) and would be willing to either post a photo of the die cuts or compare to the following photos....
"Steep" die cuts
"Shallow" die cuts
Have seen this difference with other issues as well. For the 2019 Purple Heart stamp, I had a genuine, MNH block of 4 to compare, and the steeper die cuts match the MNH block.
With these flags, I haven't found any other major differences, and apparently they don't have microprinting anywhere.
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08:04:02am
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
I have three 2024 flags waiting for the 2024 album pages. All three have the same 2024 microprinting as your top stamp. Two dots for the bottom line of both 2's. The die cuts look legit, but these are coils. Do you suspect the bottom stamp to be fake? If so, that will be easy to ID. I'll keep looking!
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re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
The dates both look legit to me based on the “normal variation” on other issues. These dot printings are not the same from stamp to stamp but I don’t know for sure.
The die cuts are likely what will be important, and why it would be helpful to find a genuine example.
Both these and the 2019 Purple Heart were printed by BCA. Not sure if that matters but I am considering everything at this point. Have seen this die cut difference on a couple other issues too. It’s odd because if you go to the USPS website or to a site like APS or virtual stamp club - they all have pictures of the stamps. All show stamps with the “shallow” style of die cuts. But the genuine block of 4 that I know I purchased at the post office has the “steeper” die cuts. And a lot of the shallow die cuts examples glow differently under SWUV
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12:17:26pm
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
I believe the stamp at the top is the fake one. Below is a scan from a genuine booklet. On booklets (and panes), there are elongated die cuts where the vertical and horizontal intersect. This is highlighted in the scan. Note that the horizontal die cut "slopes down", going left to right, at the intersection. With this configuration, the horizontal die cutting at the lower right corner ends with a peak and has the shape as highlighted. The horizontal die cutting on the top stamp in the original post ends with a valley.
This feature can not always be used to determine genuineness. On most recent booklets printed by BCA, the die cutting on the front (8 stamp side) and back (12 stamp side) are different. The 8 stamp side has the "slopes down" configuration at the intersection of the vertical and horizontal while the 12 stamp side is "slopes up". A recent example is the 2024 Madonna and Child booklet. Below are scans of both sides.
Front
Back
On the 2024 BCA Flag booklets, both sides are "slopes down". Whether the two sides are the same or different seems to be related to the size of the stamps, with booklets of smaller stamps, like Flag definitives, being the same on both sides, while larger stamps have the different configurations.
If you can't find one or the other booklet at a post office, you can order directly from Stamp Fulfillment. The BCA booklet is item number 684902 and the AP booklet is 684904. You can't make this distinction in an online order; you have to call.
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re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
What an excellent post tommcf!!
It appears to show that the genuine die cuts are the “shallow” ones.
Thank you, thank you, thank you
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re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
Wow! I learned a lot!
Though, what about the counterfeits? DO they have there own imperfect or different die cuts?
That would probably be the way to ID them right?
Any thoughts?
-Ari
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
Die cuts on earlier counterfeits used to be one of the first clues that they weren’t genuine. Not so much anymore - sometimes the shape will be a bit off (like the flags above) but sometimes there isn’t any difference as far as I can tell.
That makes other details like microprinting, word size and font, and tagging very helpful
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re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
Very true!
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this post
04:29:33pm
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
It's true that the counterfeiters are getting better with die cutting. But there are still a lot of older fakes available that can be identified by die cutting. The fakers seemed to have particular difficulties with the intersections. And even with better quality die cutting, mistakes can still be made.
Here are a few fakes that are for sale on eBay today, all from the same seller.
Here's the back of a Cactus Flowers booklet with the "slopes down" configuration. It should be "slopes up" on the back.
Regardless of which configuration appears on a given booklet, it should be consistent across that side. Here are a couple of booklets that don't meet that test.
2011 Christmas Baubles booklet that switches to "slopes up" in the third block of 4
Gingerbread Houses booklet with the same mistake.
2020 Our Lady of Guapulo. The die cutting is higher quality but still not consistent.
Full pane of $5 Floral Geometry. The intersecting die cuts are a total mess. I've only highlighted a few.
And here's a coil PNC strip with plate number P1111 which would indicate an Ashton Potter printing, but the die cutting more closely matches the BCA version.
The die cutting on Ashton Potter coils of 100 should end with a straight line at top and bottom as in the strip below. The amount of the straight line visible can vary depending on how accurately the printed web is sliced into coils.
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re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
Are those identified on eBay as fakes?
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re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
WOW!
That is so much great info.
I'm going to keep a closer eye on the die cuts now.
-Ari
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12:24:13pm
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
None of the items I posted above are identified as fakes by the seller.
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Feb 2025
12:28:36pm
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
No offence meant to people who collect the newer material... but I'm really glad I don't!! Is this material being faked so it can be sold on line for postage or it it done for philatelic reasons? Just curious, but my guess is the first reason!
Login to Like
this post
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
The counterfeits I am finding have gone through the mail to pay bills.
Every time I turn on the computer it seems there is a new ad for half price stamps.
Even found some counterfeits in my own album - the 2022 pony cars - I had replaced two with ones that had better postmarks but then discovered those new ones were fake (difference in the font of the date and a very coarse dot matrix print job) even though you couldn’t tell by just looking at them.
It’s really amazing and annoying. Our post office has one black and white 8x11 sheet of paper under glass on a table in the waiting area - it is a statement about not buying discount stamps. Not eye catching and I bet most never even notice it. And those that do are not the ones ordering stamps off the internet anyway.
Very glad I started collecting before the age of widespread counterfeits. Am very likely going to stop my USA collection at the end of 2025.
1 Member
likes this post.
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re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
These counterfeits are being made by China to be sold to the public to raise money and disrupt finances in the country where they are being sold.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
I have not much discussion of die cuts by the USSS (United States Stamp Society). The PNC3 does cover this more.
Login to Like
this post
08:16:53am
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
Since we began this discussion, I have been checking the date on 2024 stamps in a box of kiloware that I have as well as the booklet stamps of my own that I am using. I find that in 2024 both the two dot and multiple dot (looks like 5 dots) versions that make up the bottom line of both twos are used. I even find both versions on the same booklet pane and on adjacent stamps, maybe to make it harder to counterfeit. On the real stamps, the bottom line of both twos are perfectly straight pointing at 3 o'clock.
However, I have found 7 postally used stamps where the bottom lines of the two's are off kilter pointing up or down or, in some cases the entire digit is tilted slightly. The dots on these don't look like dots either. I believe these to be fakes. Has anyone else observed this?
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08:20:37am
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
I should point out that the stamps are the flags both booklet and coils but one is a snowflake Christmas stamp, booklet type.
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this post
08:29:22am
re: 2024 Flag stamps 5887-5890 die cuts
Also, under UV light, all seven glow yellow, I guess coming from the ink that was used, not like a tag. My booklet stamps (real) do not glow at all.
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