Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Any thoughts?
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I always soak of gum on older stamps.
Then put the stamps in a drying book and add 30 LBS. on top.
Let them stay for at least 3 days.
Hope this helps!
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I sell them. Soaking off gum takes 50% sales value.
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That is a problem, try using the steam method, this might reduce the tenson of the gum.
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Put them in 102 cards, or glassine envelopes, and flatten overnight. I have never had a problem doing this, provided the stamps are not touching.
They will, of course, curl back up again if left "unrestrained" again.
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12:40:52pm
I have been having problems today getting the proper meaning from posts. I really thought the reference was to the sport of Curling, I'm having a very odd day, I think it's time for a nap!!!! The joys of getting old, but always remember the alternative really sucks!
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Let me pose this question.If you were a buyer, and bought these stamps, would it matter to you if they curled if not bound by a glassine? Also, should I as a seller, disclose this condition in describing the stamps?
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As a buyer, I would like to know about the curling issue prior to purchasing.
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03:19:27pm
It's not an issue. It's the nature of the gum on the stamps reacting to changes in humidity.
Follow Benque's advice, put them in glassines or 102 cards, put them under some books for a few days and you will never know they had a "curling fit".
Just be careful not to allow creases or bent-over perfs when putting them in the cards/glassines.
Roy
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Use the steam method, it takes time, but in the end you will have flat stamps with gum.
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What is the "steam method"?
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I agree with Roy. Just put the stamps in a 102 card and press them. They eventually adjust to your humidity and in most cases are fine.
Dennis
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Roy and Grandpa.....Done! with the stamps in the pic. Finally getting some use with 4 older Scott catalogs. I'll give them several days. I hope this works, There are 250 stamps in total. They are really in nice condition. I've already spent a couple hours trying to ID some of the early 1900s stamps. Talk about scratching your head. Two different dies, and three different watermarks, for basically the same stamp design. I'm having a hell of a time trying to watermark some. I've got a few with no discernible watermark....but they all should have one of the 3 types. Not sure how I'm going to figure those out.
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The steam method takes time.
Make a wood box, maybe 1 or 2 inches deep. make two lids (one inter lid drill all over with holes) the outer lid solid (no holes). Now this is the important part, fill the box with cotton or cotton balls, but make sure the cotton does not touch the inter lid, fill with water REPEAT ENSURE THE WET COTTON DOES NOT TOUCH THE INTER LID!
Add the stamps make sure they do not touch each other.
Wait maybe 30 minutes or so.
The stamps will be flat with gum. Put in drying book and heavy weight on top of book.
Wait 3 days, take stamps out.
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1899... I have used this "steam" method many times. It also works well for removing used stamps from pieces of envelope or mint stamps stuck together. Your description is similar to a device on the market called the "Stamplift". To be honest, the stamp does retain the gum, but the gum becomes glazed. The resulting item can then only be honestly described as "disturbed gum"! Which, as 'bigcreekdad' explains, does reduce the value of a "mint" stamp.
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1899....thanks for the detailed explanation. However, if Terry's concerns turn out to be true, I'd have 250 stamps to sell with "disturbed gum". I just don't want to take that chance. Interesting....as I read your instructions, I immediately thought of the old "Stamplift". I used one of those over 50 years ago, but only to remove stamps from paper.
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The poster said it works on stamps that on paper, your stamps are mint.
The steam method works on individual mint stamps, it removes the tenson in the gum alowing the stamp to lay flat again it will not affect the gum.
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1899 said,
"it removes the tenson in the gum alowing the stamp to lay flat again it will not affect the gum."
I have used a vapor (steam) method many times and sometimes the results are worth it but it always affects the gum to some extent.
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I heard back from the auction (in Australia) and they suggested leaving them in some books with weight, as others suggested here. If that doesn't work, they take them back and refund me. That would not only be a PITA, but they are rather nice stamps. Oh well.
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"Soaking off gum takes 50% off sales value."
I wonder if this will ever change.
It is such a big misconception that stamps need to have their original gum intact to keep their value as mint. All this supported or maybe driven by catalogue pricing listing different prices for mint, unused and used stamps.
For the most part gum on old stamps is unstable and leads to the stamps getting damaged in a variety of ways
1. Toning of the gum leading to toning of the paper - the 1974 Rhodesia definitives being a good example and these can be considered not that old either. Examples abound in both British and French colonies and South America.
2. Rust / mold on the gum - depending on climate and moisture and especially in tropical climates, there is growth happening on the gum, that results in brown spots on the stamp. Even if the stamp is soaked at this point the damage remains.
3. Moisture leading to stamps sticking together. They may stick in just a few tiny spots and when separated the stamp on top may have bits of the face of the stamp underneath on its gum. The stamp underneath is more or less damaged.
4. This curling of the stamps is not damage of any kind as explained in this thread, but it makes handling those curled up stamps tricky and way more difficult and annoying putting them in glassine envelopes or a stockbook with a potential of the stamps getting creased in the process - also mentioned above.
5. Gum cracking and creating rough surface both on the back and the face of the stamp. I have not been able to completely remove gum on such stamps and make them look like nice flat ordinary stamps.
6. I also think mint stamps are more likely to suffer damage from poorly removed hinges (thinning) compared to used or unused stamps that have no gum. No idea why, but this seems to be the case.
Still looking for the day when the world philatelic societies will decide that keeping old gum on stamps is unsustainable and remove the "mint/original gum" category from the catalogues.
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@cougar
At last someone besides me has said this.
Thank you very much.
I think you said it much better than I said it!
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Cougar....I certainly don't disagree with this, but the market reality of value of MNH vs MNG still rules if you are a seller.
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MNG are the bane of my life as a dealer. Any MNG stamp that I sell has to be rare, or it goes in with a job lot. Horrible things
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Bigcreekdad - can I presume you have forced air heat? You'll find they curl in the winter months and stay flat (or at least flatter) in the summer months. Perhaps a humidifier might help but I have never had a problem selling curled mnh stamps - mint hinge remnant on the other hand look ugly when they curl with a flat spot. I soak and sell those as no gums at 20% and they sell well (same as stamps with the "hinge bulge" that won't flatten.
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Not good news. Put a selection in glassines and put them on p 1000 of an old Scott catalog and put three more catalogs on top of that. This was on the 4th. Today, I removed them and were much flatter, but after 30 minutes they were badly curled again.
I need some serious advice from the group:
1) If you knew these stamps were like this would you buy them?
2) If you would buy, would you expect a discount off of "normal" mint value.
I could try the Steam method suggested by 1899, but there are over 250 stamps. To steam them not only would take a lot of time, but some would likely end up with disturbed gum, and would need discounting.
To add fuel to the fire, I hustled received another lot I won from same auction house (In Australia). This was a mint lot of 1930's Newfoundland stamps/. I took a few out of the glassing and now they are curling.
I value the advice of folks here. If you were in my situation, what would you do? Or, am I making too big a deal out of something minor?
I could send another pic, but they look pretty much like the original in this thread.
THanks
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I would return all of them.
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Just an observation here
Mint stamps that I would call "fresh" that I removed from mounts to repackage for sale during the summers here in the Northeast remain fairly flat. Mint stamps that I would call "fresh" that I am removing from mounts now (20 degrees out) curl because the air in the house is "dry" in spite of a furnace mounted humidifier. The dryness of forced air heat plays havoc with lots of things - antique furniture in particular - damaging glue joints, cracking unfinished old furniture and damaging some old finishes.
If you have hot water heat (radiators) put pans of water on top of the radiators, or if you heat with wood keep a full tea kettle going (I've done both). This is just based on my experience and there are some stamps that always curl. I just got a large shipment of mint US in and they are curling within a day of when I remove them - plate blocks almost form a bracelet.
Just my 2 cents worth - it is why professional conservators keep items in a climate controlled environment. - temperature and humidity.
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04:45:16pm
I have been a stamp collector for over 50 years and have seen almost no curled stamps. I find some minor curling with some on my Russia and Poland CTO's but it is very minor compared to your problem. I almost always mount my stamps immediately, maybe if they were left out they would curl also. I have forced air heating and keep the temperature fairly low and use hot oil filled heaters in a few places in the house. Did all of your problem stamps come from the same dealer in Australia? I know very little about their climate but could the difference between there and here be the problem? I would be very tempted to return them, the steam box sounds like way too much work and as a seller you don't want to have to say "disturbed gum"! I bet they would curl up again anyway! Good luck John!
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@bigcreekdad
250 stamps, too bad you did not mention that in your OP!
Here's what I do in this situation.
Buy (unless you have one) an old brief case, get peg board to fit inside brief case. Scrap would you have make a frame for the peg board in the appropriate places. Instead of cotton, use your wife's best bath towel.
You OP was on 4 Jan 2025, you could have been all done in two days!
Just my suggestion!
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1899...... I mentioned it in a later post.
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"1. Toning of the gum leading to toning of the paper - the 1974 Rhodesia definitives being a good example and these can be considered not that old either. "
cougar,
The 1974 Rhodesia definitive was issued on different papers with both white and brown gum. For example, the 4c is listed with brown gum, white gum, and white gum on fluorescent paper.
These are not listed as such by either Scott or Gibbons but both the "South African Stamp Colour Catalogue" and the "Rhodesia Stamp Catalogue" carry a full listing.
I have not encountered any stamps from this issue that are actually toned; however, I am not saying it can't happen.
Clive
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Clive,
I doubt the stamp issued with brown gum also had a brown face when it was first issued. Your image shows that now the face is dark and this toning is there to stay.
Should I provide another example I came across the other day - 1960 Columbia flowers.
bigcreekdad, I will not return the stamps for this reason alone, unless this excessive curling is a sure sign of regumming.
I expect all mint stamps to curl under certain conditions. It happens to me quite often when I pull them out glassine envelopes and put them on my table.
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I just bought a lot of older British Caribbean stamps. Many of the require checking watermark types. I took several out to set aside for next day. This morning they are all curled....some almost in half. What the heck? I assume it's somehow moisture related, but it's winter here and houses shouldn't exude that much humidity.
Any thoughts?
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re: Mint stamps curling
I always soak of gum on older stamps.
Then put the stamps in a drying book and add 30 LBS. on top.
Let them stay for at least 3 days.
Hope this helps!
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this post
re: Mint stamps curling
I sell them. Soaking off gum takes 50% sales value.
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this post
re: Mint stamps curling
That is a problem, try using the steam method, this might reduce the tenson of the gum.
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12:35:20pm
re: Mint stamps curling
Put them in 102 cards, or glassine envelopes, and flatten overnight. I have never had a problem doing this, provided the stamps are not touching.
They will, of course, curl back up again if left "unrestrained" again.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Jan 2025
12:40:52pm
re: Mint stamps curling
I have been having problems today getting the proper meaning from posts. I really thought the reference was to the sport of Curling, I'm having a very odd day, I think it's time for a nap!!!! The joys of getting old, but always remember the alternative really sucks!
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re: Mint stamps curling
Let me pose this question.If you were a buyer, and bought these stamps, would it matter to you if they curled if not bound by a glassine? Also, should I as a seller, disclose this condition in describing the stamps?
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re: Mint stamps curling
As a buyer, I would like to know about the curling issue prior to purchasing.
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04 Jan 2025
03:19:27pm
re: Mint stamps curling
It's not an issue. It's the nature of the gum on the stamps reacting to changes in humidity.
Follow Benque's advice, put them in glassines or 102 cards, put them under some books for a few days and you will never know they had a "curling fit".
Just be careful not to allow creases or bent-over perfs when putting them in the cards/glassines.
Roy
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re: Mint stamps curling
Use the steam method, it takes time, but in the end you will have flat stamps with gum.
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re: Mint stamps curling
Roy and Grandpa.....Done! with the stamps in the pic. Finally getting some use with 4 older Scott catalogs. I'll give them several days. I hope this works, There are 250 stamps in total. They are really in nice condition. I've already spent a couple hours trying to ID some of the early 1900s stamps. Talk about scratching your head. Two different dies, and three different watermarks, for basically the same stamp design. I'm having a hell of a time trying to watermark some. I've got a few with no discernible watermark....but they all should have one of the 3 types. Not sure how I'm going to figure those out.
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re: Mint stamps curling
The steam method takes time.
Make a wood box, maybe 1 or 2 inches deep. make two lids (one inter lid drill all over with holes) the outer lid solid (no holes). Now this is the important part, fill the box with cotton or cotton balls, but make sure the cotton does not touch the inter lid, fill with water REPEAT ENSURE THE WET COTTON DOES NOT TOUCH THE INTER LID!
Add the stamps make sure they do not touch each other.
Wait maybe 30 minutes or so.
The stamps will be flat with gum. Put in drying book and heavy weight on top of book.
Wait 3 days, take stamps out.
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re: Mint stamps curling
1899... I have used this "steam" method many times. It also works well for removing used stamps from pieces of envelope or mint stamps stuck together. Your description is similar to a device on the market called the "Stamplift". To be honest, the stamp does retain the gum, but the gum becomes glazed. The resulting item can then only be honestly described as "disturbed gum"! Which, as 'bigcreekdad' explains, does reduce the value of a "mint" stamp.
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re: Mint stamps curling
1899....thanks for the detailed explanation. However, if Terry's concerns turn out to be true, I'd have 250 stamps to sell with "disturbed gum". I just don't want to take that chance. Interesting....as I read your instructions, I immediately thought of the old "Stamplift". I used one of those over 50 years ago, but only to remove stamps from paper.
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re: Mint stamps curling
The poster said it works on stamps that on paper, your stamps are mint.
The steam method works on individual mint stamps, it removes the tenson in the gum alowing the stamp to lay flat again it will not affect the gum.
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re: Mint stamps curling
1899 said,
"it removes the tenson in the gum alowing the stamp to lay flat again it will not affect the gum."
I have used a vapor (steam) method many times and sometimes the results are worth it but it always affects the gum to some extent.
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re: Mint stamps curling
I heard back from the auction (in Australia) and they suggested leaving them in some books with weight, as others suggested here. If that doesn't work, they take them back and refund me. That would not only be a PITA, but they are rather nice stamps. Oh well.
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re: Mint stamps curling
"Soaking off gum takes 50% off sales value."
I wonder if this will ever change.
It is such a big misconception that stamps need to have their original gum intact to keep their value as mint. All this supported or maybe driven by catalogue pricing listing different prices for mint, unused and used stamps.
For the most part gum on old stamps is unstable and leads to the stamps getting damaged in a variety of ways
1. Toning of the gum leading to toning of the paper - the 1974 Rhodesia definitives being a good example and these can be considered not that old either. Examples abound in both British and French colonies and South America.
2. Rust / mold on the gum - depending on climate and moisture and especially in tropical climates, there is growth happening on the gum, that results in brown spots on the stamp. Even if the stamp is soaked at this point the damage remains.
3. Moisture leading to stamps sticking together. They may stick in just a few tiny spots and when separated the stamp on top may have bits of the face of the stamp underneath on its gum. The stamp underneath is more or less damaged.
4. This curling of the stamps is not damage of any kind as explained in this thread, but it makes handling those curled up stamps tricky and way more difficult and annoying putting them in glassine envelopes or a stockbook with a potential of the stamps getting creased in the process - also mentioned above.
5. Gum cracking and creating rough surface both on the back and the face of the stamp. I have not been able to completely remove gum on such stamps and make them look like nice flat ordinary stamps.
6. I also think mint stamps are more likely to suffer damage from poorly removed hinges (thinning) compared to used or unused stamps that have no gum. No idea why, but this seems to be the case.
Still looking for the day when the world philatelic societies will decide that keeping old gum on stamps is unsustainable and remove the "mint/original gum" category from the catalogues.
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re: Mint stamps curling
@cougar
At last someone besides me has said this.
Thank you very much.
I think you said it much better than I said it!
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this post
re: Mint stamps curling
Cougar....I certainly don't disagree with this, but the market reality of value of MNH vs MNG still rules if you are a seller.
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re: Mint stamps curling
MNG are the bane of my life as a dealer. Any MNG stamp that I sell has to be rare, or it goes in with a job lot. Horrible things
4 Members
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10:02:14am
re: Mint stamps curling
Bigcreekdad - can I presume you have forced air heat? You'll find they curl in the winter months and stay flat (or at least flatter) in the summer months. Perhaps a humidifier might help but I have never had a problem selling curled mnh stamps - mint hinge remnant on the other hand look ugly when they curl with a flat spot. I soak and sell those as no gums at 20% and they sell well (same as stamps with the "hinge bulge" that won't flatten.
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re: Mint stamps curling
Not good news. Put a selection in glassines and put them on p 1000 of an old Scott catalog and put three more catalogs on top of that. This was on the 4th. Today, I removed them and were much flatter, but after 30 minutes they were badly curled again.
I need some serious advice from the group:
1) If you knew these stamps were like this would you buy them?
2) If you would buy, would you expect a discount off of "normal" mint value.
I could try the Steam method suggested by 1899, but there are over 250 stamps. To steam them not only would take a lot of time, but some would likely end up with disturbed gum, and would need discounting.
To add fuel to the fire, I hustled received another lot I won from same auction house (In Australia). This was a mint lot of 1930's Newfoundland stamps/. I took a few out of the glassing and now they are curling.
I value the advice of folks here. If you were in my situation, what would you do? Or, am I making too big a deal out of something minor?
I could send another pic, but they look pretty much like the original in this thread.
THanks
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re: Mint stamps curling
I would return all of them.
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04:39:10pm
re: Mint stamps curling
Just an observation here
Mint stamps that I would call "fresh" that I removed from mounts to repackage for sale during the summers here in the Northeast remain fairly flat. Mint stamps that I would call "fresh" that I am removing from mounts now (20 degrees out) curl because the air in the house is "dry" in spite of a furnace mounted humidifier. The dryness of forced air heat plays havoc with lots of things - antique furniture in particular - damaging glue joints, cracking unfinished old furniture and damaging some old finishes.
If you have hot water heat (radiators) put pans of water on top of the radiators, or if you heat with wood keep a full tea kettle going (I've done both). This is just based on my experience and there are some stamps that always curl. I just got a large shipment of mint US in and they are curling within a day of when I remove them - plate blocks almost form a bracelet.
Just my 2 cents worth - it is why professional conservators keep items in a climate controlled environment. - temperature and humidity.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jan 2025
04:45:16pm
re: Mint stamps curling
I have been a stamp collector for over 50 years and have seen almost no curled stamps. I find some minor curling with some on my Russia and Poland CTO's but it is very minor compared to your problem. I almost always mount my stamps immediately, maybe if they were left out they would curl also. I have forced air heating and keep the temperature fairly low and use hot oil filled heaters in a few places in the house. Did all of your problem stamps come from the same dealer in Australia? I know very little about their climate but could the difference between there and here be the problem? I would be very tempted to return them, the steam box sounds like way too much work and as a seller you don't want to have to say "disturbed gum"! I bet they would curl up again anyway! Good luck John!
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re: Mint stamps curling
@bigcreekdad
250 stamps, too bad you did not mention that in your OP!
Here's what I do in this situation.
Buy (unless you have one) an old brief case, get peg board to fit inside brief case. Scrap would you have make a frame for the peg board in the appropriate places. Instead of cotton, use your wife's best bath towel.
You OP was on 4 Jan 2025, you could have been all done in two days!
Just my suggestion!
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re: Mint stamps curling
1899...... I mentioned it in a later post.
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re: Mint stamps curling
"1. Toning of the gum leading to toning of the paper - the 1974 Rhodesia definitives being a good example and these can be considered not that old either. "
cougar,
The 1974 Rhodesia definitive was issued on different papers with both white and brown gum. For example, the 4c is listed with brown gum, white gum, and white gum on fluorescent paper.
These are not listed as such by either Scott or Gibbons but both the "South African Stamp Colour Catalogue" and the "Rhodesia Stamp Catalogue" carry a full listing.
I have not encountered any stamps from this issue that are actually toned; however, I am not saying it can't happen.
Clive
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re: Mint stamps curling
Clive,
I doubt the stamp issued with brown gum also had a brown face when it was first issued. Your image shows that now the face is dark and this toning is there to stay.
Should I provide another example I came across the other day - 1960 Columbia flowers.
bigcreekdad, I will not return the stamps for this reason alone, unless this excessive curling is a sure sign of regumming.
I expect all mint stamps to curl under certain conditions. It happens to me quite often when I pull them out glassine envelopes and put them on my table.
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