Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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09:52:55pm
CSA#14 is listed in the Scott US Specialized. It's an interesting question though! You quite often see where numbers are omitted for many countries. I wonder in how many cases there were actually stamps produced that just, for some reason, never saw the light of day. There are also stamps like BC #1 that has never been found used but is still listed as a valid stamp. It would be interesting to know if some stamp enthusiast ever combined all this stuff in one place!
EDIT: another interesting case is Canada #6 that used to be included in older albums but has now been dropped, even by Scott's, because there is now doubt as to whether the the stamp was ever released for postal purposes. I bet there are many cases like this for most, if not all, countries!
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Yes, I know CSA is listed in Scott Specialized and right below it is this:
No. 14 was never put in use.
There is a long and interesting story as to why that is, but that is not what I am after. I want to know if anyone has ever summarized issues such as that - ones that were officially printed and delivered, but never put into use. I would think regime change could be a common reason.
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Harvey,
Regarding BC #1, Scott says "No 1 was not placed in use and may be a proof or reprint." That's from a 2015 catalog. And that would be an example of what I am looking for.
Canada #6 missing is not unlike the US Premier Gravure issues of the Civil War that were delisted. That is NOT what I'm looking for.
Lars
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Hi Lars,
I don't know a list of unissued issues but one way to start looking may be to use Michel's convention of using Roman numbers for its listed but unissued stamps.
My first thought was that Colnect might allow us to build a search but, while you can order stamps using their Michel catalogue numbers, I don't see a way of searching explicitly by catalogue number.
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Another challenge is that catalogues often take different views as to whether stamps were issued or should be listed.
For example, for the 1905 Revolutionary Assembly stamps of Crete which were essentially propaganda stamps of a serious political insurrection with only limited use in a few villages:
- Scott notes that they exist but dismisses them with a note of them being "of no postal value whatever".
- SG lists three sets: V1-V5, V6-V11 and V12-V14 and notes that V12-V14 were prepared but not issued.
- Michel lists the same three sets: 1-5, 6-11 and I-III and notes that I-III were not issued.
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Michel seems to list stamps that SG and Scott ignore.
The First Issues Collectors Club covers some of these topics in their journal and website.
http://www.firstissues.org/index.php
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09:50:57am
"US Premier Gravure issues of the Civil War"
I assume this refers to #'s 55 - 62, 66 and 74. When I first bought my Harris Liberty album these were pictured but then years later Scott de-listed them. I crossed them out neatly adding DNE above the stamps. That was great for me since it gave me a complete page!!
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11:20:36am
I know this is not "on topic" but here is a picture of the page mentioned above with the dropped stamps.
These stamps, according to my Scott's US specialized, are as follows:
55 - 63-E11e 56 - 66E15h 57 - 67-E9e 58 - 62B 59 - 69-E6e
60 - 70TC6 61 - 71TC6 62 - 71-E7h 66 - 66TC6 74 - 74TC6
These stamps have been turned into either essays or trial colours. I once saw one of these on offer, on this site I think, but decided not to go there! These stamps would seem to be very difficult to ID so certificates would be needed. They also seem to be quite expensive and if I were going to spend that kind of $$$$ I would rather invest in a classic stamp I am missing!
This series is also known for it's fancy cancels, great stuff!!!
The colour variations are very tricky and if certifications are not available educated guesses are needed!
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Harvey,
I hate to burst your bubble, but the 10c first issue WAS issued. It just isn't #58 any more. It is #62B and is the ONLY Premier Gravure to be issued. 66 and 74 weren't Premier Gravure issues, but those numbers are indeed missing.
Current thinking is that 62B was a first design but not a first issue. When the plates for #68 started to wear and a surge in demand for 10c stamps to meet the rate to California popped up, BEP simply dusted off the Premier Gravure plates and used those.
Lars
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07:03:02pm
Thanks Lars, you're right of course. My album doesn't have a place for 62B but if I could pick it up for a fair price (2016 Scott's CV is $1500) I would love to put it somewhere on that page! Obviously the spot for #58 would be perfect. Actually I just took away the DNE and put #62B in place of #58. Thanks for that!!!! That page is no longer complete!
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I was working on something unrelated last night and found this:
2015 Scott Catalog: German New Guinea - 20 to 23 - WMK 125 (lozenges) - issued 1914 to 1919
The stamp I have clearly has a lozenges watermark and is #20. A note below these 4 stamps reads:
"Nos 20-23 were not placed in use."
The listing ended there (other than an unrelated note).
============================
I checked a 1960 Stanley Gibbons (I know it's old, but most of what I need it for is WWII and before).
SG lists those stamps under "New Guinea" with the first 19 issues the same, but SG goes straight to British Occupation overprints with #20.
============================
I also have an old Michel catalog from 1983. In this case the listing is under Deutsche Kolonien (Neuguinea)
Again, the same first 19 stamps, on oddity numbered 20, then the same 4 as Scott, with the numbers 21-24 instead of 20-23, and even an image of the lozenge watermark.
THEN Michel has this: Nr. 21-24 wurden nur am Berliner Sammlerschalter verkauft
Translation: Nos. 21-24 were only sold at the Berlin collector's counter
============================
I can see how hard it would be to determine for sure if something was printed with the intention of use but never released.
Anyway, I had fun last night!
Lars
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"Thanks for that!!!!"
I suspect you are really cursing me under your breath. Sorry about that!
The entire subject of Premier Gravures is really quite interesting. I dedicated an entire page to it:
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09:07:36pm
"I suspect you are really cursing me under your breath. Sorry about that!"
A little bit, but no real problem! One more stamp to add to my want list that, unless I get lucky, I won't be able to get anyway. I wouldn't trust very many sellers to get it right anyway. I've got a lot of great US classic material on SOR and my local dealer has supplied me with some great stuff as well. The only one I would actually be interested in from that page's deletions is the 62B. It wouldn't be an item I'd pick up on a place like E-Bay! Thanks for all the great information!!
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Harvey,
Here's a PRO TIP:
If you want to get a 62B (cv 1600 used), learn how to differentiate it from 68 (cv 60 used).
Then watch the listings for years if needed.
I got my 62B by carefully checking the scans of all 68 stamps being auctioned. It took quite a bit of time, but I finally got a 62B that was listed as a 68.
I have done that for quite a few stamps, actually.
Lars
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01:07:55pm
Lars, great suggestion and I'll give it a shot! My main problem is that the older I get the less patience I have. Could I actually stick with this for a long enough period of time? I remember doing something similar but for a different reason. The first souvenir sheet the US produced was in 1926 and I badly wanted a copy. It always seemed to go too high, or at least in my opinion. I wanted to pay $150 and I put that bid in on E-Bay many times until eventually I won! That took about a year, I think!
Sorry to put this post so far off track!!!
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It does take patience, but it works for many issues.
You would be surprised at how many stamps are out there that are mislabeled.
For me, the key is
1. A high quality scan
2. Is this an image of the actual stamp I am buying?
But I do understand impatience!
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06:05:40pm
"Is this an image of the actual stamp I am buying?
"
This is something that most buyers don't even consider - the fact that some sellers don't actually show the stamp you are buying, especially if they are selling several copies of the "same" stamp!
About a year ago I was looking for a variety (error?) of a Canadian official stamp. It was O45A, the Canada pulp/paper stamp with the flying G overprint. In the variety the flying G (a slightly different thinner version of the G overprint) the G was a bit higher on the stamp (O45Ai). This was named the "high flying G" for this reason. I bought a stamp from a dealer selling a flying G version of this stamp because it was actually the raised version. Of course I didn't realize that the stamp I ended up getting was not the one shown, just one of his several stamps of this type. I was a bit ticked until I realized he had this spelled out and I just didn't notice that he was showing a "representative" stamp from his selection. Always read the seller's description very carefully!! I do believe he was showing the rarer version on purpose to try to fool buyers but that is not possible to prove!
Again, this is off the original intention of the post.
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Back on topic, I want to thank Nigel and Al for their expertise (as always).
I was looking for an inexpensive example of a stamp that was intended for issue but didn’t make it in time. I was thinking something like CSA 14, but not as pricey.
Serendipity struck when I was researching a stamp for something totally unrelated and found what I was looking for!
I also saw why it would be so difficult to create such a list!
Anyway, German New Guinea #20 fits the bill, so mission accomplished.
Thanks again, gentlemen!
Lars
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09:04:11am
"something like CSA 14, but not as pricey"
My 2016 Scott's US specialized lists #14 at $55 if it has no gum so you might get lucky if you really look around, if you still want one. The problem is that most sellers want a fortune, or at least well over CV, for CSA material! I admit I haven't really looked for them but so far I have #'s 6, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 13 plus a facsimile pair of #3. I just noticed that #14 is in my album with the 1862 issue. Eventually I might get a few more, again, with a bit of luck!
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I have come across quite a few "unissued" stamps while assembling my worldwide airmail collection over many years. One interesting set was printed in 1926 for the first airmail service of Greece. There were 20,000 sets printed to be used for the November 1926 inaugural flight by Aero Espresso Italiana S.A. of the Brindisi (Italy)-Athens-Istanbul air route. However, the postal authorities in Greece were not too impressed with the design, and opted for the issue of the incredibly beautiful set of October 23, 1926 (Scott #C1-C4).
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This is an album page I created for the set of Greece C1-4 that Terry mentioned:
Bob
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Thank you very much, Bob... I really enjoy seeing how others have designed pages for their collections. Searching for the history behind the issues is really a lot of fun. Great Job!
I have just finished creating another page for Greece that has this first issue of airpost stamps overprinted for use with the 4th 'Fair of the Orient' held in 1933 in Bari, Italy. The Greek government raise some protest with Italy about using official Greek stamps for their own publicity purposes, which delayed the printing and so these stamps were never postally used.
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Is there a place that lists unissued stamps, such as CSA #14 and Montenegro 1N3-4?
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
10 Nov 2024
09:52:55pm
re: Unissued stamps
CSA#14 is listed in the Scott US Specialized. It's an interesting question though! You quite often see where numbers are omitted for many countries. I wonder in how many cases there were actually stamps produced that just, for some reason, never saw the light of day. There are also stamps like BC #1 that has never been found used but is still listed as a valid stamp. It would be interesting to know if some stamp enthusiast ever combined all this stuff in one place!
EDIT: another interesting case is Canada #6 that used to be included in older albums but has now been dropped, even by Scott's, because there is now doubt as to whether the the stamp was ever released for postal purposes. I bet there are many cases like this for most, if not all, countries!
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re: Unissued stamps
Yes, I know CSA is listed in Scott Specialized and right below it is this:
No. 14 was never put in use.
There is a long and interesting story as to why that is, but that is not what I am after. I want to know if anyone has ever summarized issues such as that - ones that were officially printed and delivered, but never put into use. I would think regime change could be a common reason.
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re: Unissued stamps
Harvey,
Regarding BC #1, Scott says "No 1 was not placed in use and may be a proof or reprint." That's from a 2015 catalog. And that would be an example of what I am looking for.
Canada #6 missing is not unlike the US Premier Gravure issues of the Civil War that were delisted. That is NOT what I'm looking for.
Lars
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re: Unissued stamps
Hi Lars,
I don't know a list of unissued issues but one way to start looking may be to use Michel's convention of using Roman numbers for its listed but unissued stamps.
My first thought was that Colnect might allow us to build a search but, while you can order stamps using their Michel catalogue numbers, I don't see a way of searching explicitly by catalogue number.
Login to Like
this post
re: Unissued stamps
Another challenge is that catalogues often take different views as to whether stamps were issued or should be listed.
For example, for the 1905 Revolutionary Assembly stamps of Crete which were essentially propaganda stamps of a serious political insurrection with only limited use in a few villages:
- Scott notes that they exist but dismisses them with a note of them being "of no postal value whatever".
- SG lists three sets: V1-V5, V6-V11 and V12-V14 and notes that V12-V14 were prepared but not issued.
- Michel lists the same three sets: 1-5, 6-11 and I-III and notes that I-III were not issued.
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re: Unissued stamps
Michel seems to list stamps that SG and Scott ignore.
The First Issues Collectors Club covers some of these topics in their journal and website.
http://www.firstissues.org/index.php
Login to Like
this post
Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Nov 2024
09:50:57am
re: Unissued stamps
"US Premier Gravure issues of the Civil War"
I assume this refers to #'s 55 - 62, 66 and 74. When I first bought my Harris Liberty album these were pictured but then years later Scott de-listed them. I crossed them out neatly adding DNE above the stamps. That was great for me since it gave me a complete page!!
Login to Like
this post
Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Nov 2024
11:20:36am
re: Unissued stamps
I know this is not "on topic" but here is a picture of the page mentioned above with the dropped stamps.
These stamps, according to my Scott's US specialized, are as follows:
55 - 63-E11e 56 - 66E15h 57 - 67-E9e 58 - 62B 59 - 69-E6e
60 - 70TC6 61 - 71TC6 62 - 71-E7h 66 - 66TC6 74 - 74TC6
These stamps have been turned into either essays or trial colours. I once saw one of these on offer, on this site I think, but decided not to go there! These stamps would seem to be very difficult to ID so certificates would be needed. They also seem to be quite expensive and if I were going to spend that kind of $$$$ I would rather invest in a classic stamp I am missing!
This series is also known for it's fancy cancels, great stuff!!!
The colour variations are very tricky and if certifications are not available educated guesses are needed!
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re: Unissued stamps
Harvey,
I hate to burst your bubble, but the 10c first issue WAS issued. It just isn't #58 any more. It is #62B and is the ONLY Premier Gravure to be issued. 66 and 74 weren't Premier Gravure issues, but those numbers are indeed missing.
Current thinking is that 62B was a first design but not a first issue. When the plates for #68 started to wear and a surge in demand for 10c stamps to meet the rate to California popped up, BEP simply dusted off the Premier Gravure plates and used those.
Lars
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Nov 2024
07:03:02pm
re: Unissued stamps
Thanks Lars, you're right of course. My album doesn't have a place for 62B but if I could pick it up for a fair price (2016 Scott's CV is $1500) I would love to put it somewhere on that page! Obviously the spot for #58 would be perfect. Actually I just took away the DNE and put #62B in place of #58. Thanks for that!!!! That page is no longer complete!
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re: Unissued stamps
I was working on something unrelated last night and found this:
2015 Scott Catalog: German New Guinea - 20 to 23 - WMK 125 (lozenges) - issued 1914 to 1919
The stamp I have clearly has a lozenges watermark and is #20. A note below these 4 stamps reads:
"Nos 20-23 were not placed in use."
The listing ended there (other than an unrelated note).
============================
I checked a 1960 Stanley Gibbons (I know it's old, but most of what I need it for is WWII and before).
SG lists those stamps under "New Guinea" with the first 19 issues the same, but SG goes straight to British Occupation overprints with #20.
============================
I also have an old Michel catalog from 1983. In this case the listing is under Deutsche Kolonien (Neuguinea)
Again, the same first 19 stamps, on oddity numbered 20, then the same 4 as Scott, with the numbers 21-24 instead of 20-23, and even an image of the lozenge watermark.
THEN Michel has this: Nr. 21-24 wurden nur am Berliner Sammlerschalter verkauft
Translation: Nos. 21-24 were only sold at the Berlin collector's counter
============================
I can see how hard it would be to determine for sure if something was printed with the intention of use but never released.
Anyway, I had fun last night!
Lars
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re: Unissued stamps
"Thanks for that!!!!"
I suspect you are really cursing me under your breath. Sorry about that!
The entire subject of Premier Gravures is really quite interesting. I dedicated an entire page to it:
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Nov 2024
09:07:36pm
re: Unissued stamps
"I suspect you are really cursing me under your breath. Sorry about that!"
A little bit, but no real problem! One more stamp to add to my want list that, unless I get lucky, I won't be able to get anyway. I wouldn't trust very many sellers to get it right anyway. I've got a lot of great US classic material on SOR and my local dealer has supplied me with some great stuff as well. The only one I would actually be interested in from that page's deletions is the 62B. It wouldn't be an item I'd pick up on a place like E-Bay! Thanks for all the great information!!
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re: Unissued stamps
Harvey,
Here's a PRO TIP:
If you want to get a 62B (cv 1600 used), learn how to differentiate it from 68 (cv 60 used).
Then watch the listings for years if needed.
I got my 62B by carefully checking the scans of all 68 stamps being auctioned. It took quite a bit of time, but I finally got a 62B that was listed as a 68.
I have done that for quite a few stamps, actually.
Lars
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Nov 2024
01:07:55pm
re: Unissued stamps
Lars, great suggestion and I'll give it a shot! My main problem is that the older I get the less patience I have. Could I actually stick with this for a long enough period of time? I remember doing something similar but for a different reason. The first souvenir sheet the US produced was in 1926 and I badly wanted a copy. It always seemed to go too high, or at least in my opinion. I wanted to pay $150 and I put that bid in on E-Bay many times until eventually I won! That took about a year, I think!
Sorry to put this post so far off track!!!
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re: Unissued stamps
It does take patience, but it works for many issues.
You would be surprised at how many stamps are out there that are mislabeled.
For me, the key is
1. A high quality scan
2. Is this an image of the actual stamp I am buying?
But I do understand impatience!
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Nov 2024
06:05:40pm
re: Unissued stamps
"Is this an image of the actual stamp I am buying?
"
This is something that most buyers don't even consider - the fact that some sellers don't actually show the stamp you are buying, especially if they are selling several copies of the "same" stamp!
About a year ago I was looking for a variety (error?) of a Canadian official stamp. It was O45A, the Canada pulp/paper stamp with the flying G overprint. In the variety the flying G (a slightly different thinner version of the G overprint) the G was a bit higher on the stamp (O45Ai). This was named the "high flying G" for this reason. I bought a stamp from a dealer selling a flying G version of this stamp because it was actually the raised version. Of course I didn't realize that the stamp I ended up getting was not the one shown, just one of his several stamps of this type. I was a bit ticked until I realized he had this spelled out and I just didn't notice that he was showing a "representative" stamp from his selection. Always read the seller's description very carefully!! I do believe he was showing the rarer version on purpose to try to fool buyers but that is not possible to prove!
Again, this is off the original intention of the post.
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re: Unissued stamps
Back on topic, I want to thank Nigel and Al for their expertise (as always).
I was looking for an inexpensive example of a stamp that was intended for issue but didn’t make it in time. I was thinking something like CSA 14, but not as pricey.
Serendipity struck when I was researching a stamp for something totally unrelated and found what I was looking for!
I also saw why it would be so difficult to create such a list!
Anyway, German New Guinea #20 fits the bill, so mission accomplished.
Thanks again, gentlemen!
Lars
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
14 Nov 2024
09:04:11am
re: Unissued stamps
"something like CSA 14, but not as pricey"
My 2016 Scott's US specialized lists #14 at $55 if it has no gum so you might get lucky if you really look around, if you still want one. The problem is that most sellers want a fortune, or at least well over CV, for CSA material! I admit I haven't really looked for them but so far I have #'s 6, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 13 plus a facsimile pair of #3. I just noticed that #14 is in my album with the 1862 issue. Eventually I might get a few more, again, with a bit of luck!
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re: Unissued stamps
I have come across quite a few "unissued" stamps while assembling my worldwide airmail collection over many years. One interesting set was printed in 1926 for the first airmail service of Greece. There were 20,000 sets printed to be used for the November 1926 inaugural flight by Aero Espresso Italiana S.A. of the Brindisi (Italy)-Athens-Istanbul air route. However, the postal authorities in Greece were not too impressed with the design, and opted for the issue of the incredibly beautiful set of October 23, 1926 (Scott #C1-C4).
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re: Unissued stamps
This is an album page I created for the set of Greece C1-4 that Terry mentioned:
Bob
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re: Unissued stamps
Thank you very much, Bob... I really enjoy seeing how others have designed pages for their collections. Searching for the history behind the issues is really a lot of fun. Great Job!
I have just finished creating another page for Greece that has this first issue of airpost stamps overprinted for use with the 4th 'Fair of the Orient' held in 1933 in Bari, Italy. The Greek government raise some protest with Italy about using official Greek stamps for their own publicity purposes, which delayed the printing and so these stamps were never postally used.
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