Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
1. Both date sizes have same 9 1/2 die cut measurements and square corners
2. Both have plate numbers P111 which appear identical in color, size, and spacing
3. I have about equal numbers of both types (get envelopes from a local company so have hundreds of each kind) but only one plate number example of the tall date and several examples of plate numbers on the short date
4. The short date measures 0.5 mm; the tall date measures 1 mm
In these images, the short date is on the left
Wondering if I missed something along the way - were there different printings but they didn't change a plate number? Or which one is counterfeit?
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Also - the microprinting on both versions is identical and located under the left bottom corner of the field of stars
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Thanks for sharing this! I'll have to check mine and see if I have both sizes.
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Different date size probably means different printing company.
In your observations, number 4 may need to be revised.
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I re-measured the dates: the short one is 0.5 mm, the tall one is between 0.75-0.8 mm.
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A friend of mine asked me to take a look at the stamps in this discussion. Let me introduce myself. I'm an expert on Plate Number Coils and I'm probably an expert on counterfeit US stamps printed over the past eight years. I have found over 1200 different counterfeit US stamps over the past eight years. I believe that what you are looking at is that the stamps with the shorter font are genuine, and that the others are counterfeit. It doesn't matter which printer it is, because the vertical die cut at the top and bottom of the stamp, and the "P" in the plate number means it was printed by Ashton Potter. On the counterfeits, that is not necessarily true. Between the type of tagging, tagging breaks, die cut styles, and the location of the "USPS" microprinting, the stamps can vary depending on who is printing it. Currently, I'm aware of fifteen different counterfeits total for both the Ashton Potter and Banknote Corporation of America versions of this coil issue.
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Robert,
Welcome and thanks for joining!
Your expertise will be a welcome addition to our existing "think-tank" of members.
Happy to have you onboard.
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If the above statement is true, this is the first time that I see the counterfeit stamps are better looking than the genuine, judging by the star sharpness in the canton.
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I’ve got a couple dozen or so what I believe to be counterfeit set aside. I identified them because the usps micro printing is blurred or even unreadable. Is this a fair assessment? When you really look at them, the overall appearance is not as bright and sharp. Chinese counterfeiting is a serious problem that apparently the usps or the U.S. Secret Service is not interested in stopping.
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rthomp5711- thank you for the response! That really helps me out. I have hundreds of both types and really cannot tell the difference between them. Even the microprinting is perfect on both types.
I must admit that the appearance of the genuine stamp (short date) in my photo appears blurry in the photo but not in real life. I had trouble getting the focus on the digits microscope to work for the entire width of the two stamps. Side by side, in real life, they appear identical except for the size of the date.
I have a lot of counterfeits but not near 1200 yet. Have been having almost more fun looking for counterfeits lately - have found Purple Heart stamps, otters in the snow stamps, and lots of different flag stamp examples. Also have a complete set of counterfeit flowers (Scott 5676-79). All postally used.
It’s really amazing how much the printing quality has improved for the counterfeits over the years.
Do you know how to tell the difference between genuine and counterfeit Christmas snowglobe stamps? They all look the same to me and so far have just three that glow a little differently under short wave uv light.
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In my previous post, when I referred to over 1200 counterfeits, I meant that I have over 1200 different types of counterfeits, not counterfeits total. I have been writing descriptions for the Scott catalogue for the past several years.
If you have a Long Wave tagging light, check to see if the stamp reacts under it. A lot of the more recent stamps have started showing up tagged under both Long Wave and Shortwave light. Real stamps don't do that.
For the snow globe, I have two that are different. One of them has the tagging mentioned above, and the die cuts are really strange.
The other one has a die cut style shown in the attached picture. This stamp shows the die cut better, so I used it as an example. Notice at the upper left the large round 
peak and following down, the cuts are not even. Look at the lower left and right and you will see die cuts that are not normal on a booklet. Also, on the first tip at the lower left pointing up the tip is hooked to the left. This can be found on numerous counterfeits and is very distinctive. Sometimes the die cuts on the booklet will be different on the front versus the back.
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Thank you for sharing this information. A picture is worth 1,000 words. I believe that I found two more this weekend. These were from the 2011 Christmas ornament set. The micro printing was illegible on one and double struck on another. I’ll pull them back out and look at the die cuts. Again, thanks!
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I compared the die cuts from the two suspicious stamps from 2011 to a 2024 pane of the new manatee stamp. The cuts are identical. For our flyspeckers, I see that you can locate where your stamp was on the pane by the cuts.
Since the usps has been using the same cutting machines for a very long time, I have to accept these stamps as being legitimate in spite of the suspicious micro printing. But going forward, the die cutting will be the key indicator.
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That picture of the die cuts is very helpful. I can see it would be very difficult to communicate those differences without photos.
Will have to check the snow globes under the long wave light and look more closely at the die cuts.
Thank you very much!
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Thank-you and welcome, Robert.
I've a few of the stamps, used, shown with the Elf Making Teddy Bear (for my Teddy Bear topical collection). I'll post scans next week as I have a few odd ones that don't look right.
Cheerss!
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
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Update on the 5788 tall versus short dates:
Having finally figured out how to get a better picture using the microscope, I have discovered that the microprinting on the short date versions is indeed different than the tall date versions.
The tall date microprint:
While it isn't great microprinting, it is USPS
The short date microprint:
It appears to be U3PS, and this holds for most of the short dates I have looked at so far. It is either a "3" or too blurred to read.
This may change some opinions on which is counterfeit and which is genuine. I am leaning towards the tall date being genuine but this could also be a function of how many different counterfeits are out there.
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I have Scott 5788 Freedom Flag stamps with tall and short dates. Haven't been able to find info related to different size dates but can say this so far:
1. Both date sizes have same 9 1/2 die cut measurements and square corners
2. Both have plate numbers P111 which appear identical in color, size, and spacing
3. I have about equal numbers of both types (get envelopes from a local company so have hundreds of each kind) but only one plate number example of the tall date and several examples of plate numbers on the short date
4. The short date measures 0.5 mm; the tall date measures 1 mm
In these images, the short date is on the left
Wondering if I missed something along the way - were there different printings but they didn't change a plate number? Or which one is counterfeit?
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re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
Also - the microprinting on both versions is identical and located under the left bottom corner of the field of stars
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re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
Thanks for sharing this! I'll have to check mine and see if I have both sizes.
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this post
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
Different date size probably means different printing company.
In your observations, number 4 may need to be revised.
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re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
I re-measured the dates: the short one is 0.5 mm, the tall one is between 0.75-0.8 mm.
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03:59:56pm
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
A friend of mine asked me to take a look at the stamps in this discussion. Let me introduce myself. I'm an expert on Plate Number Coils and I'm probably an expert on counterfeit US stamps printed over the past eight years. I have found over 1200 different counterfeit US stamps over the past eight years. I believe that what you are looking at is that the stamps with the shorter font are genuine, and that the others are counterfeit. It doesn't matter which printer it is, because the vertical die cut at the top and bottom of the stamp, and the "P" in the plate number means it was printed by Ashton Potter. On the counterfeits, that is not necessarily true. Between the type of tagging, tagging breaks, die cut styles, and the location of the "USPS" microprinting, the stamps can vary depending on who is printing it. Currently, I'm aware of fifteen different counterfeits total for both the Ashton Potter and Banknote Corporation of America versions of this coil issue.
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re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
Robert,
Welcome and thanks for joining!
Your expertise will be a welcome addition to our existing "think-tank" of members.
Happy to have you onboard.
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
If the above statement is true, this is the first time that I see the counterfeit stamps are better looking than the genuine, judging by the star sharpness in the canton.
Login to Like
this post
01:31:44pm
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
I’ve got a couple dozen or so what I believe to be counterfeit set aside. I identified them because the usps micro printing is blurred or even unreadable. Is this a fair assessment? When you really look at them, the overall appearance is not as bright and sharp. Chinese counterfeiting is a serious problem that apparently the usps or the U.S. Secret Service is not interested in stopping.
Login to Like
this post
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
rthomp5711- thank you for the response! That really helps me out. I have hundreds of both types and really cannot tell the difference between them. Even the microprinting is perfect on both types.
I must admit that the appearance of the genuine stamp (short date) in my photo appears blurry in the photo but not in real life. I had trouble getting the focus on the digits microscope to work for the entire width of the two stamps. Side by side, in real life, they appear identical except for the size of the date.
I have a lot of counterfeits but not near 1200 yet. Have been having almost more fun looking for counterfeits lately - have found Purple Heart stamps, otters in the snow stamps, and lots of different flag stamp examples. Also have a complete set of counterfeit flowers (Scott 5676-79). All postally used.
It’s really amazing how much the printing quality has improved for the counterfeits over the years.
Do you know how to tell the difference between genuine and counterfeit Christmas snowglobe stamps? They all look the same to me and so far have just three that glow a little differently under short wave uv light.
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05:36:07pm
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
In my previous post, when I referred to over 1200 counterfeits, I meant that I have over 1200 different types of counterfeits, not counterfeits total. I have been writing descriptions for the Scott catalogue for the past several years.
If you have a Long Wave tagging light, check to see if the stamp reacts under it. A lot of the more recent stamps have started showing up tagged under both Long Wave and Shortwave light. Real stamps don't do that.
For the snow globe, I have two that are different. One of them has the tagging mentioned above, and the die cuts are really strange.
The other one has a die cut style shown in the attached picture. This stamp shows the die cut better, so I used it as an example. Notice at the upper left the large round peak and following down, the cuts are not even. Look at the lower left and right and you will see die cuts that are not normal on a booklet. Also, on the first tip at the lower left pointing up the tip is hooked to the left. This can be found on numerous counterfeits and is very distinctive. Sometimes the die cuts on the booklet will be different on the front versus the back.
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07:56:57am
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
Thank you for sharing this information. A picture is worth 1,000 words. I believe that I found two more this weekend. These were from the 2011 Christmas ornament set. The micro printing was illegible on one and double struck on another. I’ll pull them back out and look at the die cuts. Again, thanks!
Login to Like
this post
08:51:25am
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
I compared the die cuts from the two suspicious stamps from 2011 to a 2024 pane of the new manatee stamp. The cuts are identical. For our flyspeckers, I see that you can locate where your stamp was on the pane by the cuts.
Since the usps has been using the same cutting machines for a very long time, I have to accept these stamps as being legitimate in spite of the suspicious micro printing. But going forward, the die cutting will be the key indicator.
Login to Like
this post
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
That picture of the die cuts is very helpful. I can see it would be very difficult to communicate those differences without photos.
Will have to check the snow globes under the long wave light and look more closely at the die cuts.
Thank you very much!
Login to Like
this post
re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
Thank-you and welcome, Robert.
I've a few of the stamps, used, shown with the Elf Making Teddy Bear (for my Teddy Bear topical collection). I'll post scans next week as I have a few odd ones that don't look right.
Cheerss!
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
1 Member
likes this post.
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re: Freedom Flag Scott 5788 tall vs short dates
Update on the 5788 tall versus short dates:
Having finally figured out how to get a better picture using the microscope, I have discovered that the microprinting on the short date versions is indeed different than the tall date versions.
The tall date microprint:
While it isn't great microprinting, it is USPS
The short date microprint:
It appears to be U3PS, and this holds for most of the short dates I have looked at so far. It is either a "3" or too blurred to read.
This may change some opinions on which is counterfeit and which is genuine. I am leaning towards the tall date being genuine but this could also be a function of how many different counterfeits are out there.
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