Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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03:13:43pm
I have a small collection of early Poland stamps that are almost certainly forgeries. I only pay minimal prices for them for that reason and value them as space fillers only. At the top of the page I write something like this: "many forgeries exist for this material". To me the monetary value of these stamps simply does not exist, in other words, the value is as page fillers only, in terms of money - $0.00.
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This is a question that interests me as well. Hopefully someone can speak to it.
I am sure this is a forgery, because the design quality is so poor.
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Me, I plan to buy a known forged Christmas seal from 1907. The seal is legit; its use on a cover from Media is crudely forged. My sweetheart lived in Media, and so has value to me (although far less than the pricey legit uses on cover).
In general, I want nothing to do with forgeries; with spare time I hope to learn enough about Hungarian occupation stamps to cull real from fake and identify them as such. I have several significant collections; and I approach them all as forgeries until proven otherwise; then they'll be cherished.
And, yes, some forgers and their wares are sought after, with the products sometimes eclipsing genuine examples.
Go figure.
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@psgStamper
I have always been surprised when a collector recognizes a forgery without having a good resolution image of the stamp.
To have this expertise, it is necessary to have forgeries in your collection of interest.
I have inherited many stamps (genuine/forgeries) from the French (Groupe type) and Portuguese (Ceres type) colonies and I can say that I have a good expertise for French stamps.
I did not keep them and found that there are also collectors of forgeries and I sold the Portuguese Ceres stamps to the owner of the website that describes these forgeries.
I keep the forges of the old German states, because I still don't have the genuine stamps for comparison.
This comparison is important before your eyes, because besides the difference in drawing (generally described on the forgeries site), you also see the differences in paper, perforation, color and especially the difference between the different types of printing.
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@Harvey
Not all forges are 0 money.
I sold these - declared forgeries - for 30 Euros.
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Forgeries or reproductions that is the question.
In my mind a forgery has been manufactured to be used to deceive, (like the Machin and Forever stamps that have flooded the market)
whereas
a reproduction is manufactured and described openly as such.
There are many reproductions openly described as such for sale in the stamp world. From GB Queen Victoria £5 Orange to the high values of the George V Kenya and Uganda Set. (How else could one afford the £100 stamp)
It is up to each individual to decide how they approach them.
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I translated the definition of "Facsimile" from Michel:
"Privately produced imitation of rare brands that differs from the original in color, paper and/or printing process"
Initially Fournier and his successor Hirschburger were producers of "Timbres Fac-Similes" (the French terms "vignettes" or "imitations" were still used) which helped collectors to complete their collections until the moment they procured the original stamps.
Due to his skill in imitating original stamps, he reached the situation where collectors and even experts can hardly distinguish them from the originals (same paper, perforation, color)
If they were initially sold as "Facsimiles" they ended up being resold as originals.
That is why in 1927 "L'Union Philatelique de Geneve" bought and destroyed the entire stock of "Facsimiles" (480 albums with "stamps" were made with their "Faux" marking)
The clichés, plates, fake postal cancellations and overprints after they were rendered unusable were stored in a Geneva museum.
Facsimiles (reproduction) or forgeries (faux)? everyone decides as they want... the main thing is to be able to identify them because many are still circulating.
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If people will buy them , they have value! There are collectors who collect nothing but forgeries and some have great value. You may not think so but they do!
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@gerom
The first tipoff on a forgery is when the stamp is valued at over $100 and you buy it for a dime... It kind of raises suspicions. Then searching the web to find if there are forgeries of a given stamp and finding that there are and here are things to look for... investigate the stamp. I have a high resolution microscope camera which allows me to see the differences between a genuine stamp and a forgery.
I don't have a genuine stamp to do a comparison with and therefore, I rely on (hopefully) experts who have documented what to look for and have made their findings available on the web.
As to the question of forgeries versus reproductions... It makes no difference to me. Neither are genuine. Forgeries or reproductions can be interesting if for no other reason than a space filler.
Finally... Value is in the eye of the beholder.
Paul
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hhi
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I can't post an answer.
error occurs ?????
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You can see errors like that when you copy/paste text from elsewhere that has special characters that confuse the forum software. It would help if you capture a screenshoot of what was typed prior to submitting message.
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I've had to deal with this issue several times. When I was amassing my Canal Zone collection, I had several copies of #1 - 3 come back from PSE as fakes. These three were heavy faked as soon as they were issued. I always got my money back from the sellers, but it was frustrating to wait 6 weeks to find out if a stamp was in fact, genuine. Others known to have been heavily faked I bought only if certified.
Moving on to the USA, the Scott catalogue and internet sources warn of the large numbers of Washington/Franklin fakes, especially the flat plate printings. I currently buy WF FP coils only as certified pairs. Pairs I have from my childhood fifty years ago are at PSE as we speak. Maybe I'll get lucky.
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I generally have no use for forgeries. I try to keep the "weeds" out of my collection to the best of my ability.
However, I would like to own a Speranti forgery some day. Those are works of art that go for close to CV for the real thing.
That's on my list of things to do if I ever run out of things to do.
I do have one example of a forgery that I got quite by accident. It was from a box of used postage on paper and I actually found a fake US postage stamp that had gone through the mailstream. That's mail fraud! I'm keeping that!
I get certs on anything questionable.
Lars
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10:25:54pm
I'm not a huge fan of forgeries either but anyone who collects early Poland or Russia probably has some in their collection. There is also a series of early Cuban stamps that are almost always fake as well. I refuse to pay very much for material like this but there are still people selling on E-bay and other sites trying to get huge prices for this stuff. But not from me!!! There are so many clever fakes out there that no matter which countries and areas we collect we probably have a few. It is way so expensive and so much of a pain to get things authenticated that we will probably just have to put up with an occasional fake! All of this is just IMHO! Of course if we buy something that is very expensive we have to insist on a certificate. I have a complete collection of BC stamps with a CV of well over $50 000 and I know where the expensive pieces (#'s 1 and 3) came from. I'd be an idiot if I didn't!!! It also really helps if you buy from a well trusted and well known seller!
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I feel comfortable with US stamps and knowing what to get authenticated. Where I have a challenge is in a few stamps I need for an OFEC (one from every country) collection. The catalogues warn me that "counterfeits abound", and even though the CV is relatively low, my stamp IQ is even lower.
It would be nice to know who is knowledgeable about areas like:
Pre-Argentina states
Pre-Colombia states
German States
Italian States
Indian States
just to name a few.
Lars
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this post
I like the older forgeries such as Sperati and Spiro Brothers. I like reading about the forgers and their work. I don't mind having forgeries in my collection, it helps to tell the story. I have a shelf of reference books and material related to forgeries and forgers. I will purchase forgeries when they are described as such. I have a set of Newfoundland forgeries I bought about two years ago and they were identified as forgeries. They are from Onegila, Sperati and Spiro Brothers.
The top row are Onegila, Spiro and Onegila.
The second row are Spiro, Sperati and Onegila.
When compaired with genuine it easy to see the difference in color. Seeing the difference in the engraving is a lot harder. These are great for reference. The 2016 Unitrade has the genuine listed for $375.00. I paid about $100.00 for this set.
If you are interested in Sperati forgeries Richard Frajola has a lot of information on these.
https://www.sperati.org/
Yes, I value forgeries.
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"I have always been surprised when a collector recognizes a forgery without having a good resolution image of the stamp."
I feel confident saying that if you have a used US 356 coil single without a cert that you have a fake. No image needed.
I would also bet big money that a used 315 single without a cert is a trimmed down 304 (unless it had HUGE margins).
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It is not mentioned in my Michel catalog that this stamp exists forgery.
I bought both from a member of the site.
The top stamp is a Peter Winter forgery (paper without watermark, litho print) which I noticed when I had the stamp in front of my eyes.
This forgery stamp is perforated in line (notice the hole in the lower right corner - it is not aligned with the horizontal ones)
The original stamp is comb. perforated and all the holes in the corners must be aligned with the vertical and horizontal ones.
You can very easily protect yourself from forgery with this simple check.
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I have a set of the "Ahmad Shah Qajar" Iran surcharged stamps (Scott # 681-95) which are forgeries. Actually, I have many examples of forgeries in my collection. I know that the majority of forgeries are hardly worth the paper they are printed on while some seem to demand a high price. I am curious how SOR members put a value on them? Any thoughts?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Feb 2024
03:13:43pm
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I have a small collection of early Poland stamps that are almost certainly forgeries. I only pay minimal prices for them for that reason and value them as space fillers only. At the top of the page I write something like this: "many forgeries exist for this material". To me the monetary value of these stamps simply does not exist, in other words, the value is as page fillers only, in terms of money - $0.00.
Login to Like
this post
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
This is a question that interests me as well. Hopefully someone can speak to it.
I am sure this is a forgery, because the design quality is so poor.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
Me, I plan to buy a known forged Christmas seal from 1907. The seal is legit; its use on a cover from Media is crudely forged. My sweetheart lived in Media, and so has value to me (although far less than the pricey legit uses on cover).
In general, I want nothing to do with forgeries; with spare time I hope to learn enough about Hungarian occupation stamps to cull real from fake and identify them as such. I have several significant collections; and I approach them all as forgeries until proven otherwise; then they'll be cherished.
And, yes, some forgers and their wares are sought after, with the products sometimes eclipsing genuine examples.
Go figure.
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01:36:08am
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
@psgStamper
I have always been surprised when a collector recognizes a forgery without having a good resolution image of the stamp.
To have this expertise, it is necessary to have forgeries in your collection of interest.
I have inherited many stamps (genuine/forgeries) from the French (Groupe type) and Portuguese (Ceres type) colonies and I can say that I have a good expertise for French stamps.
I did not keep them and found that there are also collectors of forgeries and I sold the Portuguese Ceres stamps to the owner of the website that describes these forgeries.
I keep the forges of the old German states, because I still don't have the genuine stamps for comparison.
This comparison is important before your eyes, because besides the difference in drawing (generally described on the forgeries site), you also see the differences in paper, perforation, color and especially the difference between the different types of printing.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
02:22:14am
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
@Harvey
Not all forges are 0 money.
I sold these - declared forgeries - for 30 Euros.
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04:20:52am
Auctions - Approvals
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
Forgeries or reproductions that is the question.
In my mind a forgery has been manufactured to be used to deceive, (like the Machin and Forever stamps that have flooded the market)
whereas
a reproduction is manufactured and described openly as such.
There are many reproductions openly described as such for sale in the stamp world. From GB Queen Victoria £5 Orange to the high values of the George V Kenya and Uganda Set. (How else could one afford the £100 stamp)
It is up to each individual to decide how they approach them.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
07:11:06am
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I translated the definition of "Facsimile" from Michel:
"Privately produced imitation of rare brands that differs from the original in color, paper and/or printing process"
Initially Fournier and his successor Hirschburger were producers of "Timbres Fac-Similes" (the French terms "vignettes" or "imitations" were still used) which helped collectors to complete their collections until the moment they procured the original stamps.
Due to his skill in imitating original stamps, he reached the situation where collectors and even experts can hardly distinguish them from the originals (same paper, perforation, color)
If they were initially sold as "Facsimiles" they ended up being resold as originals.
That is why in 1927 "L'Union Philatelique de Geneve" bought and destroyed the entire stock of "Facsimiles" (480 albums with "stamps" were made with their "Faux" marking)
The clichés, plates, fake postal cancellations and overprints after they were rendered unusable were stored in a Geneva museum.
Facsimiles (reproduction) or forgeries (faux)? everyone decides as they want... the main thing is to be able to identify them because many are still circulating.
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
04:20:26pm
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
If people will buy them , they have value! There are collectors who collect nothing but forgeries and some have great value. You may not think so but they do!
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
@gerom
The first tipoff on a forgery is when the stamp is valued at over $100 and you buy it for a dime... It kind of raises suspicions. Then searching the web to find if there are forgeries of a given stamp and finding that there are and here are things to look for... investigate the stamp. I have a high resolution microscope camera which allows me to see the differences between a genuine stamp and a forgery.
I don't have a genuine stamp to do a comparison with and therefore, I rely on (hopefully) experts who have documented what to look for and have made their findings available on the web.
As to the question of forgeries versus reproductions... It makes no difference to me. Neither are genuine. Forgeries or reproductions can be interesting if for no other reason than a space filler.
Finally... Value is in the eye of the beholder.
Paul
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10:52:04pm
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I can't post an answer.
error occurs ?????
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re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
You can see errors like that when you copy/paste text from elsewhere that has special characters that confuse the forum software. It would help if you capture a screenshoot of what was typed prior to submitting message.
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05:50:20pm
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I've had to deal with this issue several times. When I was amassing my Canal Zone collection, I had several copies of #1 - 3 come back from PSE as fakes. These three were heavy faked as soon as they were issued. I always got my money back from the sellers, but it was frustrating to wait 6 weeks to find out if a stamp was in fact, genuine. Others known to have been heavily faked I bought only if certified.
Moving on to the USA, the Scott catalogue and internet sources warn of the large numbers of Washington/Franklin fakes, especially the flat plate printings. I currently buy WF FP coils only as certified pairs. Pairs I have from my childhood fifty years ago are at PSE as we speak. Maybe I'll get lucky.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I generally have no use for forgeries. I try to keep the "weeds" out of my collection to the best of my ability.
However, I would like to own a Speranti forgery some day. Those are works of art that go for close to CV for the real thing.
That's on my list of things to do if I ever run out of things to do.
I do have one example of a forgery that I got quite by accident. It was from a box of used postage on paper and I actually found a fake US postage stamp that had gone through the mailstream. That's mail fraud! I'm keeping that!
I get certs on anything questionable.
Lars
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Feb 2024
10:25:54pm
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I'm not a huge fan of forgeries either but anyone who collects early Poland or Russia probably has some in their collection. There is also a series of early Cuban stamps that are almost always fake as well. I refuse to pay very much for material like this but there are still people selling on E-bay and other sites trying to get huge prices for this stuff. But not from me!!! There are so many clever fakes out there that no matter which countries and areas we collect we probably have a few. It is way so expensive and so much of a pain to get things authenticated that we will probably just have to put up with an occasional fake! All of this is just IMHO! Of course if we buy something that is very expensive we have to insist on a certificate. I have a complete collection of BC stamps with a CV of well over $50 000 and I know where the expensive pieces (#'s 1 and 3) came from. I'd be an idiot if I didn't!!! It also really helps if you buy from a well trusted and well known seller!
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I feel comfortable with US stamps and knowing what to get authenticated. Where I have a challenge is in a few stamps I need for an OFEC (one from every country) collection. The catalogues warn me that "counterfeits abound", and even though the CV is relatively low, my stamp IQ is even lower.
It would be nice to know who is knowledgeable about areas like:
Pre-Argentina states
Pre-Colombia states
German States
Italian States
Indian States
just to name a few.
Lars
Login to Like
this post
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
I like the older forgeries such as Sperati and Spiro Brothers. I like reading about the forgers and their work. I don't mind having forgeries in my collection, it helps to tell the story. I have a shelf of reference books and material related to forgeries and forgers. I will purchase forgeries when they are described as such. I have a set of Newfoundland forgeries I bought about two years ago and they were identified as forgeries. They are from Onegila, Sperati and Spiro Brothers.
The top row are Onegila, Spiro and Onegila.
The second row are Spiro, Sperati and Onegila.
When compaired with genuine it easy to see the difference in color. Seeing the difference in the engraving is a lot harder. These are great for reference. The 2016 Unitrade has the genuine listed for $375.00. I paid about $100.00 for this set.
If you are interested in Sperati forgeries Richard Frajola has a lot of information on these.
https://www.sperati.org/
Yes, I value forgeries.
7 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
"I have always been surprised when a collector recognizes a forgery without having a good resolution image of the stamp."
I feel confident saying that if you have a used US 356 coil single without a cert that you have a fake. No image needed.
I would also bet big money that a used 315 single without a cert is a trimmed down 304 (unless it had HUGE margins).
Login to Like
this post
07:38:11am
re: How Do SOR Members Value Forgeries
It is not mentioned in my Michel catalog that this stamp exists forgery.
I bought both from a member of the site.
The top stamp is a Peter Winter forgery (paper without watermark, litho print) which I noticed when I had the stamp in front of my eyes.
This forgery stamp is perforated in line (notice the hole in the lower right corner - it is not aligned with the horizontal ones)
The original stamp is comb. perforated and all the holes in the corners must be aligned with the vertical and horizontal ones.
You can very easily protect yourself from forgery with this simple check.
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