Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I saw this on our marketplace site in the Netherlands. Somehow I have doubts about the authenticity and somehow I think out friend Hockeynut will be able to tell us more about it...
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Hello JanSimon.
It is real FAKE!!
I tracked it down to a seller in the U.K.
The seller in the U.K. gives this as the description and I quote :
"Germany Nazi 1944 Stamp MNH KURLAND Hitler's Birthday Unissued SS Block Swastika Eagle WWII Third Reich German
MNH** Mint Never Hinged Reproduction"
That last word says it all : REPRODUCTION
The seller calls himself YHSHOP at ebay.
I searched a little bit further and I have a strong suspicion that all these types of stamps are made in Slovakia.
Below I collected some of them.
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The Dutch seller on Marktplaats calls himself Apeldoorn59 and specializes in stuff like this. His safety net is "geen garantie" / no guarantee. In other words a guarantee that it is a fake or forgery.
Here is an example, sold for just 13 euros.
I am no expert and cannot point out why it is a forgery, but noone in his right mind would accept such a bid or have it as a fixed price.
If it seems to good to be true, it probably isn't.
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FAKE Bohmen und Mahren
FAKE Deutsches Reich
FAKE GeneralGouvernement
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FAKE Gross Deutsches Reich
The stamp is a duplicate of Michelnr 865. (If the stamp is stand-alone it will be difficult to detect if it is genuine
FAKE Guernsey
and last but not least the overprints (KURLAND 1945) on the Hitler-stamps
FAKE Kurland
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Well JanSimon, I believe the 10 Gulden stamp is a little bit blurry.
Below is a picture of the genuine
NED 80A
Look that this stamp is much clearer
And here the certificate :
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But we digress.
Here are the one and only stamps of the Kurland pocket.
From these stamps are only Type differences.....
Because the russians had besieged the bridge-head at Kurland the Germans were unable to secure new supplies of the OSTLAND stamp from Berlin.
That is why the stamps that were still in the Kurland pocket were overprinted.
This overprinting was done at the local newspaper printing shop KURZEMES VARDS.
And for the people who don't know where Kurland is, here is a map :
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This discussion is exactly why I am here
That was informative and fun ( yes )
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The souvenir sheet with Mi. 865 has a few red flags. Most importantly the German regime would never use the word "Machtergreifung" as it suggests a violent coup or revolution. They would probably have referred to it as "the appointment of A.H. as chancellor of Germany" or in German "Machtübernahme". The real seizure of power followed later, when A.H. became president and chancellor, or simply "Führer" when Hindenburg died.
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"This discussion is exactly why I am here
That was informative and fun ( yes )"
Glad to see that my personal quest for knowledge has benefits for others as well
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So I have a bunch of Hitler Head overprints. How do I know if they are fakes or reproductions?
Here is an example:
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100% fantasy. Fake would be too much honour for this thoughtless creation.
Rule 1: check the specialized Michel Germany. catalogue. If it is not listed, forget it.
Rule 2: check when this stamp was supposed to be issued. If it is after 1941 and the font used for the overprint is Fraktur ("German gothic), it is a fake. Hitler banned the use of Fraktur that year. Panzergrenadier-Division Nordland was created in 1943...
Rule 3: use Google for a quick fact check. In this case you will find the name of the army division was Panzergrenadier-Division Nordland, so the name used on the stamp is shorter but.also wrong.
Rule 4: this is in fact the most important one. Always assume stamps like this one are fakes / fantasies or whatever you want to name them. Chances of finding genuine material are very small.
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Here is another creative fantasy, a souvenir sheet with the final third Reich stamps, Michel 909/910 (Scott B292/3)
1. Not listed in Michel
2. Cancelled 6 days before the official and accepted issue date?
I could go on a bit, but the overall message is buyer beware.
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Thanks Jansimon! This really helps.
Another stamp I have. FAKE! See what I found in second pic with a simple Google search.
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In a way it is quite ironical that the person who created the Generalgouvernement fantasy used the Windsor font. I wonder if they realized this.
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"Another stamp I have. FAKE! See what I found in second pic with a simple Google search."
That TOGO stamp is indeed a fake.
Just like the found certificate says : Only 2 copies of this stamp are known and they are both canceled.
Catalog value : 60000 Euros.
But the Michel nr 12 II (also the 3 mark value but another overprint in english and also 2 copies known and both canceled) is more expensive : 150000 Euros
Sold at an auction for 235000 euros
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As always, especially when JanSimon & HockeyNut weigh in, this was fascinating reading and leads to more research.
Even if they are fake, I think it would be interesting as an historical talking point to have such items in your collection. I'm hoping to stumble across something similar some day.
In the meantime, a multi-layered question. Were these issued contemporaneously or after the war? Were they intended to deceive or just to put out something unique collectors could add to their collections?
Many thanks for this great discussion!
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Actually, I do not agree with your statement that there ought to be a place for such items in a collection, because a. it is a form of fake history and b. it would legitimate the work of those who make these items. Most of these items were created quite recently when it became much easier to make these items (all you need is a good printer and some skills using a program like Photoshop) and a wonderful market full of people with enough money and unfortunately not enough knowledge and/or common sense emerged in the form of Ebay. The overprints require less skills, just take cheap, widely available stamps and practice until it looks decent. When you look carefully, it becomes apparent that most of these overprints are made with an inkjet printer. At the same time, these are the most "dangerous" ones, because they could be passed on as the real thing - like those Togo stamps.
The others are just outrageous phantasies that are completely over the top.
Someone with in depth knowledge of typography would have no difficulty concluding that most of the items shown here have been created on Photoshop using fonts that didn't exist in the 1940s.
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By the way, the rapid development of AI systems poses a new danger. Here is something I asked a random AI image generator to create: a stamp of A. Hitler dressed up as Josef Stalin. As this was the unpaid version, there is a bit of gibberish instead of real lettering, but it just shows how easy it has become to create something that might fool someone who does not look carefully.
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I agree with Jansimon. If I know 100% that its a fake, I'm destroying it to take it out of circulation and be happy knowing it's one less out there. Kinda like picking up litter and putting it in the trash can at a park.
I have quite a few of overprints, so I bought the Michel book in English. Hope to weed more out.
Thanks to everybody here. I'm new, but this has been a wealth of information!
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I said "interesting ... to have" (a personal opinion for ME), not "ought to have" as a general dictate for others.
And destroying something to take a fake out of circulation (where others like me might be able to use them for educational purposes) is too much like the book-burning ethos for my liking.
Just a personal opinion - no rebuttal required.
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02:26:24pm
"And destroying something to take a fake out of circulation (where others like me might be able to use them for educational purposes) is too much like the book-burning ethos for my liking."
I know you said a response isn't necessary but I wholly agree with the sentiment!
I collect many different things and try very hard to stay away from fakes and damaged goods. But even fakes have a market and the fact that some of them have been around for quite a while gives them a bit of credibility, at least in my opinion!
I knew a few antiques dealers who threw away any items, no matter how rare they were, if they had damage. I also don't agree with that.
We had a local folk artist by the name of Maud Lewis. About 40 years ago there was a major scare because another folk artist was faking her material. Many art dealers panicked and grossly undersold her paintings, many of which were real, to be safe. Lots of money was lost. I know this is way off topic but I'm just expounding a bit!
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Not surprised by your comments Joe. Having met you personally, and even perhaps arguing about contentious issues, I think we agree that being open to discussing controversy rather than shutting it down (or destroying anything subjectively offensive) - and allowing that different people may be different - is a good (not bad???) thing.
This is not a comment on any other commentators - just sending you some love!
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I saw this on our marketplace site in the Netherlands. Somehow I have doubts about the authenticity and somehow I think out friend Hockeynut will be able to tell us more about it...
Login to Like
this post
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
Hello JanSimon.
It is real FAKE!!
I tracked it down to a seller in the U.K.
The seller in the U.K. gives this as the description and I quote :
"Germany Nazi 1944 Stamp MNH KURLAND Hitler's Birthday Unissued SS Block Swastika Eagle WWII Third Reich German
MNH** Mint Never Hinged Reproduction"
That last word says it all : REPRODUCTION
The seller calls himself YHSHOP at ebay.
I searched a little bit further and I have a strong suspicion that all these types of stamps are made in Slovakia.
Below I collected some of them.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
The Dutch seller on Marktplaats calls himself Apeldoorn59 and specializes in stuff like this. His safety net is "geen garantie" / no guarantee. In other words a guarantee that it is a fake or forgery.
Here is an example, sold for just 13 euros.
I am no expert and cannot point out why it is a forgery, but noone in his right mind would accept such a bid or have it as a fixed price.
If it seems to good to be true, it probably isn't.
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
FAKE Bohmen und Mahren
FAKE Deutsches Reich
FAKE GeneralGouvernement
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
FAKE Gross Deutsches Reich
The stamp is a duplicate of Michelnr 865. (If the stamp is stand-alone it will be difficult to detect if it is genuine
FAKE Guernsey
and last but not least the overprints (KURLAND 1945) on the Hitler-stamps
FAKE Kurland
Login to Like
this post
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
Well JanSimon, I believe the 10 Gulden stamp is a little bit blurry.
Below is a picture of the genuine
NED 80A
Look that this stamp is much clearer
And here the certificate :
1 Member
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Login to Like.
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
But we digress.
Here are the one and only stamps of the Kurland pocket.
From these stamps are only Type differences.....
Because the russians had besieged the bridge-head at Kurland the Germans were unable to secure new supplies of the OSTLAND stamp from Berlin.
That is why the stamps that were still in the Kurland pocket were overprinted.
This overprinting was done at the local newspaper printing shop KURZEMES VARDS.
And for the people who don't know where Kurland is, here is a map :
4 Members
like this post.
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re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
This discussion is exactly why I am here
That was informative and fun ( yes )
6 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
The souvenir sheet with Mi. 865 has a few red flags. Most importantly the German regime would never use the word "Machtergreifung" as it suggests a violent coup or revolution. They would probably have referred to it as "the appointment of A.H. as chancellor of Germany" or in German "Machtübernahme". The real seizure of power followed later, when A.H. became president and chancellor, or simply "Führer" when Hindenburg died.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
"This discussion is exactly why I am here
That was informative and fun ( yes )"
Glad to see that my personal quest for knowledge has benefits for others as well
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
08:07:38pm
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
So I have a bunch of Hitler Head overprints. How do I know if they are fakes or reproductions?
Here is an example:
1 Member
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Login to Like.
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
100% fantasy. Fake would be too much honour for this thoughtless creation.
Rule 1: check the specialized Michel Germany. catalogue. If it is not listed, forget it.
Rule 2: check when this stamp was supposed to be issued. If it is after 1941 and the font used for the overprint is Fraktur ("German gothic), it is a fake. Hitler banned the use of Fraktur that year. Panzergrenadier-Division Nordland was created in 1943...
Rule 3: use Google for a quick fact check. In this case you will find the name of the army division was Panzergrenadier-Division Nordland, so the name used on the stamp is shorter but.also wrong.
Rule 4: this is in fact the most important one. Always assume stamps like this one are fakes / fantasies or whatever you want to name them. Chances of finding genuine material are very small.
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
Here is another creative fantasy, a souvenir sheet with the final third Reich stamps, Michel 909/910 (Scott B292/3)
1. Not listed in Michel
2. Cancelled 6 days before the official and accepted issue date?
I could go on a bit, but the overall message is buyer beware.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
05:34:55pm
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
Thanks Jansimon! This really helps.
Another stamp I have. FAKE! See what I found in second pic with a simple Google search.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
In a way it is quite ironical that the person who created the Generalgouvernement fantasy used the Windsor font. I wonder if they realized this.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
"Another stamp I have. FAKE! See what I found in second pic with a simple Google search."
That TOGO stamp is indeed a fake.
Just like the found certificate says : Only 2 copies of this stamp are known and they are both canceled.
Catalog value : 60000 Euros.
But the Michel nr 12 II (also the 3 mark value but another overprint in english and also 2 copies known and both canceled) is more expensive : 150000 Euros
Sold at an auction for 235000 euros
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
04:40:39pm
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
As always, especially when JanSimon & HockeyNut weigh in, this was fascinating reading and leads to more research.
Even if they are fake, I think it would be interesting as an historical talking point to have such items in your collection. I'm hoping to stumble across something similar some day.
In the meantime, a multi-layered question. Were these issued contemporaneously or after the war? Were they intended to deceive or just to put out something unique collectors could add to their collections?
Many thanks for this great discussion!
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
Actually, I do not agree with your statement that there ought to be a place for such items in a collection, because a. it is a form of fake history and b. it would legitimate the work of those who make these items. Most of these items were created quite recently when it became much easier to make these items (all you need is a good printer and some skills using a program like Photoshop) and a wonderful market full of people with enough money and unfortunately not enough knowledge and/or common sense emerged in the form of Ebay. The overprints require less skills, just take cheap, widely available stamps and practice until it looks decent. When you look carefully, it becomes apparent that most of these overprints are made with an inkjet printer. At the same time, these are the most "dangerous" ones, because they could be passed on as the real thing - like those Togo stamps.
The others are just outrageous phantasies that are completely over the top.
Someone with in depth knowledge of typography would have no difficulty concluding that most of the items shown here have been created on Photoshop using fonts that didn't exist in the 1940s.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
By the way, the rapid development of AI systems poses a new danger. Here is something I asked a random AI image generator to create: a stamp of A. Hitler dressed up as Josef Stalin. As this was the unpaid version, there is a bit of gibberish instead of real lettering, but it just shows how easy it has become to create something that might fool someone who does not look carefully.
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05:59:35pm
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
I agree with Jansimon. If I know 100% that its a fake, I'm destroying it to take it out of circulation and be happy knowing it's one less out there. Kinda like picking up litter and putting it in the trash can at a park.
I have quite a few of overprints, so I bought the Michel book in English. Hope to weed more out.
Thanks to everybody here. I'm new, but this has been a wealth of information!
4 Members
like this post.
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01:18:48pm
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
I said "interesting ... to have" (a personal opinion for ME), not "ought to have" as a general dictate for others.
And destroying something to take a fake out of circulation (where others like me might be able to use them for educational purposes) is too much like the book-burning ethos for my liking.
Just a personal opinion - no rebuttal required.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Jan 2024
02:26:24pm
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
"And destroying something to take a fake out of circulation (where others like me might be able to use them for educational purposes) is too much like the book-burning ethos for my liking."
I know you said a response isn't necessary but I wholly agree with the sentiment!
I collect many different things and try very hard to stay away from fakes and damaged goods. But even fakes have a market and the fact that some of them have been around for quite a while gives them a bit of credibility, at least in my opinion!
I knew a few antiques dealers who threw away any items, no matter how rare they were, if they had damage. I also don't agree with that.
We had a local folk artist by the name of Maud Lewis. About 40 years ago there was a major scare because another folk artist was faking her material. Many art dealers panicked and grossly undersold her paintings, many of which were real, to be safe. Lots of money was lost. I know this is way off topic but I'm just expounding a bit!
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03:05:45pm
re: Kurland Souvenir Sheet 1944: is it real?
Not surprised by your comments Joe. Having met you personally, and even perhaps arguing about contentious issues, I think we agree that being open to discussing controversy rather than shutting it down (or destroying anything subjectively offensive) - and allowing that different people may be different - is a good (not bad???) thing.
This is not a comment on any other commentators - just sending you some love!
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