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General Philatelic/Identify This? : I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

 

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mbo1142
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

21 Oct 2023
11:32:13am
I have 22 of this stamp, all have different countries indicated in red across the bottom. The indication is that they are airmail semi-postal, but cannot find. All the country names are current or former French colonies. Any help appreciated.

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rtvstamps
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21 Oct 2023
12:02:03pm

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re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Hello!

It is a Common Design Type, in Scott Cat. go to the section (Page 36A) and go to Dahomey page, below the images


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Dahomey Section:

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lerivage

21 Oct 2023
12:19:12pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

These stamps were kind of cinderellas. Most were sold in Paris and were not legal for mailing in the corresponding colonies. For seven territories (out of 22) they had a franking value. The governor of the territory had the power to recognize it as a stamp.

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mbo1142
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

21 Oct 2023
02:36:17pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Thank you both very much. They had me stumped. Did not think to look a Common Design Types. Will add that as a new place to look when all else fails. The 22 I have are all Mint light hinged.

Again thanks for the help.

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Bobstamp
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21 Oct 2023
04:19:19pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Am I correct to assume that this common-design set was issued by Vichy France, not Free France? Perhaps that would explain why only 7 of 22 colonies accepted the stamp as postage stamps rather than "cinderellas".

Bob

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Greaden

21 Oct 2023
05:17:44pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

The Etat Francais (Vichy) and the Free French issued dueling sets of stamps for each of the colonies. They were postally used to the extent that one side or the other controlled the colony. Most of the Free French sets were printed in London. Vichy sets were in Paris, but at a certain point in the war they could no longer be shipped. Scott only recently started to list the ones that saw no postal use.

This particular stamp was indeed a Vichy issue.

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Bobstamp
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21 Oct 2023
10:56:50pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

I knew that stamp looked familiar, so I searched my stock book pages for Indochina (easy job, not many stamps) and found it!:

Image Not Found

I don't understand why the denomination of this stamp is printed in black, while Mel's stamp has the denomination in white. There's no way that the denomination of my stamp could have been overprinted over the white denomination of Mel's stamp.

I wondered what topic the stamp was addressing. My up-to-date set of Indochina pages says that it was issued for the "Colonial Education Fund." Education in Indochina was primarily for wealthy urban Indochinese, who were needed as workers in the French-controlled civil service. The person portrayed on the stamp doesn't quite look Indochinese!


Bob

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nigelc
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22 Oct 2023
08:25:33pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Hi Bob,

As far as I can see all the stamps with this design have the same French currency value apart from three:

- Indo-china

- Indo-chinese PO in Kwangchow

- French Indian Settlements

These all appear to have had the original design retouched to obscure the standard value so that the relevant local currency value could be printed in black.

Part of the original value can still be seen especially the outline of the "0" in the first line of the value.

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mbo1142
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

23 Oct 2023
08:10:34am
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Very interesting. I did not notice the values in black that Bob pointed out. Checked the ones that I have and sure enough, the 3 that Nigel pointed out are in black while all the rest are in white.

I might add to keep an eye out for a future approval book of Revenues, Cinderelles and Seals. There will be some interesting items.

Mel

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Bobstamp
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23 Oct 2023
10:46:22am
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Interesting! I missed the “forensic” detail of the retouching.

Nigel said that one of the stamps with the black surcharge was issed for use by “Indo-chinese PO in Kwangchow”. How is that stamp identified? Simply with “Kwangchow” in red?

Bob

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Greaden

23 Oct 2023
12:45:31pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

"Nigel said that one of the stamps with the black surcharge was issed for use by “Indo-chinese PO in Kwangchow”. How is that stamp identified? Simply with “Kwangchow” in red?"

Yes, Kwangchow is in red. For the French State/Vichy omnibus issues, Kwangchow was treated as a colony rather than an office, with the name in the stamp design rather than as an overprint.

The denomination looks exactly identical to that for Indochina.

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Bobstamp
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23 Oct 2023
01:11:47pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Thank you, Greadon. Now I have to look for the Kwangchow stamp!

Bob

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mbo1142
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

23 Oct 2023
01:45:41pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Greadon,

Great information!! I have a question regarding the wording "Kwangchow" verses "Kouang Tcheou". My stamp has the latter name with the denomination in black. My stamp was printed in Paris which would make it a Etat Francais (Vichy) stamp. Am I missing something? I researched both and have become even more confused. Are they one-in-the same or is there 2 different stamps?

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Greaden

23 Oct 2023
01:56:34pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

"Great information!! I have a question regarding the wording "Kwangchow" verses "Kouang Tcheou". My stamp has the latter name with the denomination in black. My stamp was printed in Paris which would make it a Etat Francais (Vichy) stamp. Am I missing something? I researched both and have become even more confused. Are they one-in-the same or is there 2 different stamps?"

I rechecked mine: it is inscribed Kouang-Tchéou.

I reviewed my omnibus collection, and found that Kouang-Tchéou is included in the NY exposition set in 1939 and also the Bastille series. So it predated Etat Francais.

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nigelc
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23 Oct 2023
02:16:16pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Yes, I think of Kouang-Tchéou as Kwangchow following the SG catalogue.

The French leased territory was formally called "Territoire de Kouang-Tchéou-Wan" in French and is now essentially Zhanjiang.

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Terry
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23 Oct 2023
07:16:49pm
re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

These stamps are listed in Scott - French Offices Abroad in China as Kwangchowan. First issue in 1906 overprint reads 'Kouang Tchéou-Wan'. After that the overprints read 'KOUANG TCHEOU'. I collect airpost issues so Scott #CB1-CB4 are in my collection. Yes they were Vichy issues and not sold in the offices abroad or colonies.

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mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
21 Oct 2023
11:32:13am

I have 22 of this stamp, all have different countries indicated in red across the bottom. The indication is that they are airmail semi-postal, but cannot find. All the country names are current or former French colonies. Any help appreciated.

Image Not Found

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rtvstamps

21 Oct 2023
12:02:03pm

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re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Hello!

It is a Common Design Type, in Scott Cat. go to the section (Page 36A) and go to Dahomey page, below the images


Image Not Found

Dahomey Section:

Image Not Found

Like 
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like this post.
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rtvmodeler.com/Stamp ...
lerivage

21 Oct 2023
12:19:12pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

These stamps were kind of cinderellas. Most were sold in Paris and were not legal for mailing in the corresponding colonies. For seven territories (out of 22) they had a franking value. The governor of the territory had the power to recognize it as a stamp.

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mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
21 Oct 2023
02:36:17pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Thank you both very much. They had me stumped. Did not think to look a Common Design Types. Will add that as a new place to look when all else fails. The 22 I have are all Mint light hinged.

Again thanks for the help.

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Bobstamp

21 Oct 2023
04:19:19pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Am I correct to assume that this common-design set was issued by Vichy France, not Free France? Perhaps that would explain why only 7 of 22 colonies accepted the stamp as postage stamps rather than "cinderellas".

Bob

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Greaden

21 Oct 2023
05:17:44pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

The Etat Francais (Vichy) and the Free French issued dueling sets of stamps for each of the colonies. They were postally used to the extent that one side or the other controlled the colony. Most of the Free French sets were printed in London. Vichy sets were in Paris, but at a certain point in the war they could no longer be shipped. Scott only recently started to list the ones that saw no postal use.

This particular stamp was indeed a Vichy issue.

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Bobstamp

21 Oct 2023
10:56:50pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

I knew that stamp looked familiar, so I searched my stock book pages for Indochina (easy job, not many stamps) and found it!:

Image Not Found

I don't understand why the denomination of this stamp is printed in black, while Mel's stamp has the denomination in white. There's no way that the denomination of my stamp could have been overprinted over the white denomination of Mel's stamp.

I wondered what topic the stamp was addressing. My up-to-date set of Indochina pages says that it was issued for the "Colonial Education Fund." Education in Indochina was primarily for wealthy urban Indochinese, who were needed as workers in the French-controlled civil service. The person portrayed on the stamp doesn't quite look Indochinese!


Bob

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nigelc

22 Oct 2023
08:25:33pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Hi Bob,

As far as I can see all the stamps with this design have the same French currency value apart from three:

- Indo-china

- Indo-chinese PO in Kwangchow

- French Indian Settlements

These all appear to have had the original design retouched to obscure the standard value so that the relevant local currency value could be printed in black.

Part of the original value can still be seen especially the outline of the "0" in the first line of the value.

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mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
23 Oct 2023
08:10:34am

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Very interesting. I did not notice the values in black that Bob pointed out. Checked the ones that I have and sure enough, the 3 that Nigel pointed out are in black while all the rest are in white.

I might add to keep an eye out for a future approval book of Revenues, Cinderelles and Seals. There will be some interesting items.

Mel

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Bobstamp

23 Oct 2023
10:46:22am

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Interesting! I missed the “forensic” detail of the retouching.

Nigel said that one of the stamps with the black surcharge was issed for use by “Indo-chinese PO in Kwangchow”. How is that stamp identified? Simply with “Kwangchow” in red?

Bob

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Greaden

23 Oct 2023
12:45:31pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

"Nigel said that one of the stamps with the black surcharge was issed for use by “Indo-chinese PO in Kwangchow”. How is that stamp identified? Simply with “Kwangchow” in red?"

Yes, Kwangchow is in red. For the French State/Vichy omnibus issues, Kwangchow was treated as a colony rather than an office, with the name in the stamp design rather than as an overprint.

The denomination looks exactly identical to that for Indochina.

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Bobstamp

23 Oct 2023
01:11:47pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Thank you, Greadon. Now I have to look for the Kwangchow stamp!

Bob

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mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
23 Oct 2023
01:45:41pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Greadon,

Great information!! I have a question regarding the wording "Kwangchow" verses "Kouang Tcheou". My stamp has the latter name with the denomination in black. My stamp was printed in Paris which would make it a Etat Francais (Vichy) stamp. Am I missing something? I researched both and have become even more confused. Are they one-in-the same or is there 2 different stamps?

Like 
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Greaden

23 Oct 2023
01:56:34pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

"Great information!! I have a question regarding the wording "Kwangchow" verses "Kouang Tcheou". My stamp has the latter name with the denomination in black. My stamp was printed in Paris which would make it a Etat Francais (Vichy) stamp. Am I missing something? I researched both and have become even more confused. Are they one-in-the same or is there 2 different stamps?"

I rechecked mine: it is inscribed Kouang-Tchéou.

I reviewed my omnibus collection, and found that Kouang-Tchéou is included in the NY exposition set in 1939 and also the Bastille series. So it predated Etat Francais.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
nigelc

23 Oct 2023
02:16:16pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

Yes, I think of Kouang-Tchéou as Kwangchow following the SG catalogue.

The French leased territory was formally called "Territoire de Kouang-Tchéou-Wan" in French and is now essentially Zhanjiang.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Terry

23 Oct 2023
07:16:49pm

re: I Give Up. Believe French of Some Kind

These stamps are listed in Scott - French Offices Abroad in China as Kwangchowan. First issue in 1906 overprint reads 'Kouang Tchéou-Wan'. After that the overprints read 'KOUANG TCHEOU'. I collect airpost issues so Scott #CB1-CB4 are in my collection. Yes they were Vichy issues and not sold in the offices abroad or colonies.

Image Not Found

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