Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Especially on flat press printed stamps?
1898
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10:50:53pm
If a stamp has been regummed there is no way it could be done without having some extra gum end up inside the perforations or around the little fibers you always have around the outside of the perforations. The only ones that would be a bit tricky would be imperforates and then there would still be a bit of a mess at the edges but you'd need a really good loupe to see it. Since the perforations are almost always done after the gum has been applied the holes should be very clean at the edges. I can't remember which stamp it is but one of the Newfoundland stamps had the gum applied after the perforations (mentioned in Unitrade) were done and when I looked at the stamp it was very obvious!
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@Poster
Many thanks for the information for Newfoundland stamps!
Again many thanks.
But I was only interested in United States Stamps!
1898
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Harvey's response is one that can be generalized to any country's stamps. He merely used a specific example to illustrate his point.
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08:27:56am
"How do you determine you have OG?"
That is how I would determine if the stamp has been regummed. I don't believe that is the answer that the original poster was hoping for! Obviously there is another method!
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Can we get back to the original TOPIC "United States Postage Stamps"!
How about grilled stamps of the 1870's, who has specific knowledge of these. Would MNH grilled stamps have less gum because of the gum soaking into the grill, or was more than normal amount of gum be required? How could someone determine if an grill stamp was regummed? (spelling?)
1898
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Same as what Harvey indicated. The perfs are the tell for all but imperforate stamps.
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11:03:06am
Even with imperforate stamps there would be an excess of gum in any fibers at the edge. You'd just need good magnification to see it. As far as I can tell we are on topic trying to answer the question posed by 1898. There really is no surer way to tell if a stamp has been regummed than look at gum buildup on the fibers in the perforation holes or the edges! That's what any sources I've seen will tell you to look for no matter which country.
Here is another quote from Unitrade and it would apply to any country with the proper climate. " Most Newfoundland stamps have some gum wrinkles due to humidity in both England (where a lot of them were printed) and in Newfoundland". In my opinion this would apply almost anywhere with higher humidity at times and that would include many areas in the US. I guess it would also depend on the gum that was used.
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The grills were issued prior to 1870. Experimental issue was done in 1867, with production in 1868-69.
Grills, by virtue of their purposeful weakening of the stamps, would have been added AFTER gum and the perforations. So what Harvey described for ALL stamps, including US issues, would apply to the grilled stamps as well.
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I'm sure you are right about the grills, my Cat. says 1870's. I'll make a note of what you said thanks!
The previous poster made a good point about the gum in the perfs.
This brings up a point about grills, do you think grilled sheets of stamps were feed thru the dandy roller one at a time. I had always thought (correct me if I'm wrong) grilled sheets (more than one sheet) were feed thru the dandy roller?
1898
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I don't know, but images I have of the process show single flat plate process on printing; i can't imagine the graters wouldn't shred the top sheet in an effort to get to ones below it.
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03:04:36pm
If anyone has a mint copy of Newfoundland Scott #180 you can see what regumming can do to a stamp. It was the stamp where the glue was applied after the perfs were done, GOK why!!! The perforation holes and the fibers associated with them are really messed up with gum! If a person was intentionally trying to do better a good job he/she could do better but they would surely make some kind of a mess!!
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03:10:31pm
Here is the definition I found on line for a dandy roller.
"a roller which is used to solidify partly formed paper during its manufacture, and to impress the water mark."
Is this really when the grill would have been added? I would have thought it would be later in the stamp's formation. But I really don't have a clue about the process. Does anyone know for sure when in the stamp making process the grill was added?
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@Poster
I was thinking, totally unknown subject proof stamps and grills. Do proof stamps have grills or not?
1898
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06:52:05pm
I don't know if proofs of stamps intended to have grills would have grills or not. So I'll make a guess. I'll say they wouldn't because they would not be postally used and grills are intended to make it much more difficult for people to get rid of postmarks and reuse the stamps. Since proofs are never meant to be postally used why put grills on them? To be sure I looked it up in my Scott's US Specialized, the best book around for US material, I think! Grilled stamps: 79 - 101, 112 - 122, 134 - 144, and some of 156 - 165 and 178 - 179. Then I looked up proofs and some of them are listed with grills: 79P5, 83P5, 94P5. I don't see any others listed with grills and since they go into paper types if there were grills they would probably say. So it looks like there are only three proofs with grills. Maybe!!
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@Poster
Sometimes you see the unusual and remember what you saw. This happened to me.
Many years ago (1980s) I went to a stamp show in S.F., and saw a block of 4 of Scott #136 Mint with gum removed, the grills looked like well defined and sharp details.
Just saying, nothing meant!
1898
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09:37:52pm
If you check my last post I definitely say 136 has a grill!
"Grilled stamps: 79 - 101, 112 - 122, 134 - 144, and some of 156 - 165 and 178 - 179."
It's the proof of 136 that doesn't!
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@1898
US stamps are not in my field of interest and I could be wrong.
I think that an indicator of OG for flat press print stamps is the ink marks on the gum (I understood that the sheets were placed on top of each other before the ink was sufficiently dry)
I would be interested in details about the color of the gum, if it is glossy or matte...
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My understanding is there are fakers that are good at regumming, hence less likely to be detected, and then your more common faker. For the more common faker, either there will be gum in the perf holes or on the fibers that are detectable using magnification or they will have regummed up to the perf "line" due to the method used to hold the stamp in place.
More sophisticated fakers probably have developed means to mitigate the gum getting in the perf holes during regumming (a material to hold the stamp down while filling the holes before regumming). Look for odd material in the perf holes or lack of shine (halo) from real gumming (caused by perforating device cutting through the original gum).
Also, regummed stamps are more likely to curl when you place them face down in your palm, because the stamp was probably dry when regummed rather than damp when originally gummed.
This applies to perforated stamps. Imperforates are more difficult obviously and one would need experience and reference stamps. Color and visual appearance of real gum for the issue is probably something necessary in this case and in the really well-done regummings.
See here for more information:
https://www.hgitner.com/vPages.asp?vpage ...
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I understand the best faked gumming is done in Germany and Canada, and a lesser Middle East. Fake gumming is a big business.
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10:08:59pm
That's a great little article Lewis, thanks for that!! I'll stick with my method of looking at perf holes for the most part. It really only makes sense to worry about stamps with a huge difference in price if it has original gum! For the cheaper stuff it really makes no sense to worry about it. And, of course, with most of the really expensive stuff I have then used anyway. I did check my Canada Jubilee series and they look fine to me! Thankfully!!
EDIT: If I saw an older classic with pristine gum I would get suspicious anyway since there are almost always (IMHO) slight problems (almost always) with gum on older stamps. Rule of thumb: If it's too good to be true ...! The following quotes were stolen by me on line!!
RULE OF THUMB: 1) This usage of the phrase can be traced back to the 17th century and has been associated with various trades where quantities were measured by comparison to the width or length of a thumb.
2) This belief may have originated in a rumored statement by 18th-century judge Sir Francis Buller that a man may beat his wife with a stick no wider than his thumb. The rumor produced numerous jokes and satirical cartoons at Buller's expense, but there is no record that he made such a statement. NOTE: I obviously don't like #2, please don't shoot the messenger!
SHOOT THE MESSENGER: The sentiment was expressed in the play Antigone, written by Sopholcles around 440 B.C.: ” For no man delights in the bearer of bad news.” Don't shoot the messenger is an admonition to not blame the bearer of bad news. It is often used when someone reveals a difficult truth that the listener does not want to hear.
That was fun!!
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10:41:14pm
How do you determine you have OG?
Especially on flat press printed stamps?
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Sep 2023
10:50:53pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
If a stamp has been regummed there is no way it could be done without having some extra gum end up inside the perforations or around the little fibers you always have around the outside of the perforations. The only ones that would be a bit tricky would be imperforates and then there would still be a bit of a mess at the edges but you'd need a really good loupe to see it. Since the perforations are almost always done after the gum has been applied the holes should be very clean at the edges. I can't remember which stamp it is but one of the Newfoundland stamps had the gum applied after the perforations (mentioned in Unitrade) were done and when I looked at the stamp it was very obvious!
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11:16:20pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
@Poster
Many thanks for the information for Newfoundland stamps!
Again many thanks.
But I was only interested in United States Stamps!
1898
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Auctions
re: Original Gum (OG)?
Harvey's response is one that can be generalized to any country's stamps. He merely used a specific example to illustrate his point.
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Sep 2023
08:27:56am
re: Original Gum (OG)?
"How do you determine you have OG?"
That is how I would determine if the stamp has been regummed. I don't believe that is the answer that the original poster was hoping for! Obviously there is another method!
Login to Like
this post
09:05:45am
re: Original Gum (OG)?
Can we get back to the original TOPIC "United States Postage Stamps"!
How about grilled stamps of the 1870's, who has specific knowledge of these. Would MNH grilled stamps have less gum because of the gum soaking into the grill, or was more than normal amount of gum be required? How could someone determine if an grill stamp was regummed? (spelling?)
1898
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this post
re: Original Gum (OG)?
Same as what Harvey indicated. The perfs are the tell for all but imperforate stamps.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Sep 2023
11:03:06am
re: Original Gum (OG)?
Even with imperforate stamps there would be an excess of gum in any fibers at the edge. You'd just need good magnification to see it. As far as I can tell we are on topic trying to answer the question posed by 1898. There really is no surer way to tell if a stamp has been regummed than look at gum buildup on the fibers in the perforation holes or the edges! That's what any sources I've seen will tell you to look for no matter which country.
Here is another quote from Unitrade and it would apply to any country with the proper climate. " Most Newfoundland stamps have some gum wrinkles due to humidity in both England (where a lot of them were printed) and in Newfoundland". In my opinion this would apply almost anywhere with higher humidity at times and that would include many areas in the US. I guess it would also depend on the gum that was used.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Original Gum (OG)?
The grills were issued prior to 1870. Experimental issue was done in 1867, with production in 1868-69.
Grills, by virtue of their purposeful weakening of the stamps, would have been added AFTER gum and the perforations. So what Harvey described for ALL stamps, including US issues, would apply to the grilled stamps as well.
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this post
12:40:12pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
I'm sure you are right about the grills, my Cat. says 1870's. I'll make a note of what you said thanks!
The previous poster made a good point about the gum in the perfs.
This brings up a point about grills, do you think grilled sheets of stamps were feed thru the dandy roller one at a time. I had always thought (correct me if I'm wrong) grilled sheets (more than one sheet) were feed thru the dandy roller?
1898
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this post
Auctions
re: Original Gum (OG)?
I don't know, but images I have of the process show single flat plate process on printing; i can't imagine the graters wouldn't shred the top sheet in an effort to get to ones below it.
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Sep 2023
03:04:36pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
If anyone has a mint copy of Newfoundland Scott #180 you can see what regumming can do to a stamp. It was the stamp where the glue was applied after the perfs were done, GOK why!!! The perforation holes and the fibers associated with them are really messed up with gum! If a person was intentionally trying to do better a good job he/she could do better but they would surely make some kind of a mess!!
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Sep 2023
03:10:31pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
Here is the definition I found on line for a dandy roller.
"a roller which is used to solidify partly formed paper during its manufacture, and to impress the water mark."
Is this really when the grill would have been added? I would have thought it would be later in the stamp's formation. But I really don't have a clue about the process. Does anyone know for sure when in the stamp making process the grill was added?
Login to Like
this post
05:32:44pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
@Poster
I was thinking, totally unknown subject proof stamps and grills. Do proof stamps have grills or not?
1898
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Sep 2023
06:52:05pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
I don't know if proofs of stamps intended to have grills would have grills or not. So I'll make a guess. I'll say they wouldn't because they would not be postally used and grills are intended to make it much more difficult for people to get rid of postmarks and reuse the stamps. Since proofs are never meant to be postally used why put grills on them? To be sure I looked it up in my Scott's US Specialized, the best book around for US material, I think! Grilled stamps: 79 - 101, 112 - 122, 134 - 144, and some of 156 - 165 and 178 - 179. Then I looked up proofs and some of them are listed with grills: 79P5, 83P5, 94P5. I don't see any others listed with grills and since they go into paper types if there were grills they would probably say. So it looks like there are only three proofs with grills. Maybe!!
Login to Like
this post
08:21:58pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
@Poster
Sometimes you see the unusual and remember what you saw. This happened to me.
Many years ago (1980s) I went to a stamp show in S.F., and saw a block of 4 of Scott #136 Mint with gum removed, the grills looked like well defined and sharp details.
Just saying, nothing meant!
1898
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Sep 2023
09:37:52pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
If you check my last post I definitely say 136 has a grill!
"Grilled stamps: 79 - 101, 112 - 122, 134 - 144, and some of 156 - 165 and 178 - 179."
It's the proof of 136 that doesn't!
Login to Like
this post
02:07:53am
re: Original Gum (OG)?
@1898
US stamps are not in my field of interest and I could be wrong.
I think that an indicator of OG for flat press print stamps is the ink marks on the gum (I understood that the sheets were placed on top of each other before the ink was sufficiently dry)
I would be interested in details about the color of the gum, if it is glossy or matte...
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Original Gum (OG)?
My understanding is there are fakers that are good at regumming, hence less likely to be detected, and then your more common faker. For the more common faker, either there will be gum in the perf holes or on the fibers that are detectable using magnification or they will have regummed up to the perf "line" due to the method used to hold the stamp in place.
More sophisticated fakers probably have developed means to mitigate the gum getting in the perf holes during regumming (a material to hold the stamp down while filling the holes before regumming). Look for odd material in the perf holes or lack of shine (halo) from real gumming (caused by perforating device cutting through the original gum).
Also, regummed stamps are more likely to curl when you place them face down in your palm, because the stamp was probably dry when regummed rather than damp when originally gummed.
This applies to perforated stamps. Imperforates are more difficult obviously and one would need experience and reference stamps. Color and visual appearance of real gum for the issue is probably something necessary in this case and in the really well-done regummings.
See here for more information:
https://www.hgitner.com/vPages.asp?vpage ...
Login to Like
this post
12:37:40pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
I understand the best faked gumming is done in Germany and Canada, and a lesser Middle East. Fake gumming is a big business.
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Sep 2023
10:08:59pm
re: Original Gum (OG)?
That's a great little article Lewis, thanks for that!! I'll stick with my method of looking at perf holes for the most part. It really only makes sense to worry about stamps with a huge difference in price if it has original gum! For the cheaper stuff it really makes no sense to worry about it. And, of course, with most of the really expensive stuff I have then used anyway. I did check my Canada Jubilee series and they look fine to me! Thankfully!!
EDIT: If I saw an older classic with pristine gum I would get suspicious anyway since there are almost always (IMHO) slight problems (almost always) with gum on older stamps. Rule of thumb: If it's too good to be true ...! The following quotes were stolen by me on line!!
RULE OF THUMB: 1) This usage of the phrase can be traced back to the 17th century and has been associated with various trades where quantities were measured by comparison to the width or length of a thumb.
2) This belief may have originated in a rumored statement by 18th-century judge Sir Francis Buller that a man may beat his wife with a stick no wider than his thumb. The rumor produced numerous jokes and satirical cartoons at Buller's expense, but there is no record that he made such a statement. NOTE: I obviously don't like #2, please don't shoot the messenger!
SHOOT THE MESSENGER: The sentiment was expressed in the play Antigone, written by Sopholcles around 440 B.C.: ” For no man delights in the bearer of bad news.” Don't shoot the messenger is an admonition to not blame the bearer of bad news. It is often used when someone reveals a difficult truth that the listener does not want to hear.
That was fun!!
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