Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Do you have any US catalog?
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On line one, the blue green 4 cent Jackson is very nice. On line 2, the 2 cent carmine Washintons look to be no. 220 ( there are no caps on any of the 2s). Line 3 is a pair of no. 226. Lines 4 and 5 are the 1, 2 and 4 cent Columbians of 1894. Lines 6-10 with corner triangles need to be checked for watermarks. Line 10 at the end is the 2 cent Trans-Mississippi issue of 1897. Line 11 is the 1 and 2 cent of the Pan-American issue of 1901.
The most valuable is the 4 cent Jackson with a 2017 CV of 27.50. The rest would probably CV 20-25.00 depending on what they are. Not a bad starter group.
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@snowy12
If your catalog is a Scott Specialzed of the United States, if not go to your library and see if they have one.
Your stamps appear to have been issued 1870s - 1905 time frame.
Don't be concerned with watermarks at this time, that will come later.
Match up the catalog pictures with you stamps. Some stamps were issued more than once, don't worry about that now.
If possible sometimes the person who put this collection together would mark the reverse with the catalog number.
You should be able to identify most of your stamps this way.
Good luck
1898
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Thankyou all for your input ,1898 our local library doesnh't even carry Stanley Gibbons I will check and see if they have a number on the reverse .
Thankyou joesm for the your help .Question is it safe to soak the hinges off these stamps?
Any help is greatly appreciated as I know nothing about US stamps.
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I normally soak hinges off of US stamps from that era and so far have not had any issues. (I also try to erase any pencil marks on the backs...)
Josh
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"I also try to erase any pencil marks on the backs", which can lead to thins (please don't ask me how I know this)!
1898
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11:49:15pm
Brian,
Open Google,
Type in; Kenmorestamps.com/US-stamp-identifier
TTFN
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Charlie and Brian,
I don't believe that Kenmore's website has that feature anymore.
I haven't seen it there in quite a long while.
And Brian,
Even though your catalog for US is from 1965, you should be able to ID them all using it.
Not much if any has changed for ID'ing the issues you are showing above.
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Scott (or Stamp) numbers:
R1 210, 210, 213, 213, 211 (nice stamp)
R2 219, 219D (is it Lake?), 219D, 220, 223
R3 226, 226
R4 230, 230, 231
R5 233
R6 247, 248-52, 248-52
R7 258 or 273, 259,74
R8 246?, 247, 247, 253 or 268
R9 254 or 269, 256 or 271, 258 or 273, 258 or 273, 279
R10 279, 281, 283, 283, 286
R11 294, 295
R12 300 304 (nice stamp)
R13 307 309
R14 64 (assuming no grill), 206, 179 or 180, 147 (assuming no grill), 160 or 209 or ?
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Yes, same design. I see I assigned the one you posted as S.64 -- bad on me. That is not a 64 but a 65. Sorry about that. The only difference between the two is color. And there is a range of colors for 64s and for 65s. Scott has assigned several sub numbers also along with shades without sub-numbers. All very confusing.
The main difference is all 64s (scarce to rare and expensive) are shades of pink while all 65s (all inexpensive and poorly centered) are shades of rose and red. To further make it interesting, the ink used will/can become very brown due to exposure to certain conditions.
I'll post some examples of each in my next post.
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First a S.64 pink
And a S.65 rose
And a S.65 that has turned brown
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11:16:33am
I know I have both so I checked and noticed I had the numbers reversed. Not sure why but I decided ton just leave it for a while!
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This same design also comes with various grills and thus more numbers:
S.79 A grill
S.82 B (not collectable)
S.83 C
S.85 D
S.85C Z
S.88 E
S.94 F
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@banknoteguy
Reference your posting Jack
07 Jul 2023
07:05:41am
In regards to "And a S.65 that has turned brown", is it assumed to be a 65 or could it be a 64 that turned?
1898
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It could be either but much more likely to be a 65. What happens is that lead in the pigments fixes sulphur from the air and thus the brown color. It is commonly called oxidation but it is really sulphurization. It happens to some other colors of stamps also -- blue sometimes. Cape triangles come to mind.
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@banknoteguy
Use the old timer trick of soaking the stamp in Hydrogen Peroxide will restore sulphurization!
1898
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I think it would be classified as a perforation error. Imperf pairs are not a thing for 19th century US (at least as far as I have seen in four years of active collecting). Not like for some countries where they are listed in catalogues. But someone else may have a different perspective ...
Btw this is a S.147 produced by the National Bank Note company. S.136 is identical except with a grill on hard paper. S.158 tiny difference in design by Continental Banknote company on hard paper. S.184 same tiny difference in design by American Banknote company on soft paper. S.207 slight difference in design/color also by ABC on soft paper.
Below is a S.136 photoed to show the grill from the front:
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This is exactly why these are so much fun - time and effort
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04:19:54pm
Could the stamp be giving part of a gutter pair? I'm not sure if this stamp was printed using contact (?) sheets made up of 4 sheets of stamp and Brian actually has a stamp combined with a gutter and part of the stamp on the other side.
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@Everyone
Hope someone can explain Harvey's posting of "08 Jul 2023 04:19:54pm", maybe I'm extra dense today, but I have no idea what Harvey is saying?
1898
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05:13:02pm
I'll explain more fully, or try to. Many sheets of US stamps were actually originally done up as 4 sheets in one larger sheet which I have seen called a contact sheet. So picture a large sheet made up of four sheets upper right, upper left, lower right and lower left. These sheets were often separated by a gaps called a gutter. So picture a square cross with a sheet of stamps in each corner. Here's a simple example of a "gutter pair" where you have two stamps separated by the gap between the two sheets, https://www.ebay.com/itm/256131301339. The only difference is that these are imperforates. I think that maybe Brian has the left hand stamp and part of the right hand one. I could be out to lunch though!! It wouldn't be the first, or the last, time! also note that all gutters are not the same width and sometimes there are perfs on both sides of the gutter and sometimes not. This makes sense to me but I have quite a few gutter pairs, line pairs, line singles, line blocks, arrow line pairs and blocks, gutter blocks, cross gutter blocks, etc - but that's several other stories!! Check this out: https://stampsmarter.org/1847usa/Farleys ... Sometimes the four smaller sheets are separated by lines. giving line pairs, blocks, etc., sometimes just spaces. I hope all this helps 1898, if not, I really tried, but I don't have a way to scan!
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@Harvey
I think I understand now, in my mind the way you explained it can be one of two ways.
Let me know which one it is #1 or #2!
#1 4 individual sheets of stamps were printed at different times and then somehow put together (glued?) and called a contact sheet.
#2 One sheet of stamps printed which contained 4 panes of stamps (not called contact sheet) called a sheet.
1898
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05:56:53pm
It's #2! I think you're also right about panes and sheets. I'm still not sure if that's what Brian is dealing with though. I would have to check but I'm not sure if the panes and sheets go back that far without doing a bit of research.
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It is possible that the stamp in question is part of a "gutter pair" but does not look like the gutter is as wide as I would expect. I am pretty certain (but could not find this in Brookman) that this issue was printed in a sheet of 200 i.e. two side by side panes of 100 each (10x10) and would not have been perforated in the gutter. The panes would have been cut apart with I assume a paper cutter.
Brookman does say that this issue (3c National banknote) is known imperf (but was not issued that way) and that a large imperf block existed at one time.
Scott does not mention any imperfs nor a gutter pair.
Example of what a gutter between panes looks like on a 2c banknote (note the arrowhead pointing where to cut):
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06:11:59pm
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06:16:31pm
A very interesting discussion - lots of great stamp information here!!!
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I do like banknotes 
. I found I had a similar stamp on cover to the S.147 being discussed. Cover sent from one place in Ohio to another in 1875. This stamp however is an S.158 printed by the Continental banknote company.
S.158 (Continental banknote company)
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06:41:16pm
That's great Jack, but what in heck is it?
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Well I think it pretty much has to be the gutter between panes, even though it does not seem as wide as the one on the 2c banknote. But if anyone else knows better, please enlighten us. When the panes were cut apart the cutter was misaligned and did not cut through the middle of the gutter but rather took part of a whole column of stamps.
I am looking through my banknotes to see if I have anymore related examples.
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06:52:08pm
"what in heck is it?"
The printed sheet of 200 stamps (from the printing plate) consists of 2 panes of 100 stamps each, separated by a narrow gutter. The panes are then cut apart down the gutter. This is a mis-cutting of the gutter between the two panes. And, from the number of readily available examples posted here, a fairly common occurrence.
Roy
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07:02:20pm
Thanks Roy!! Makes sense. I sort of remember the two side by side sheets and a miscut should be fairly common. So it is sort of a foreshortened part of a gutter pair. I don't seem to remember seeing gutter pairs of these older stamps but they should exist!!
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Definitely concur with Roy. I did find another example of the 3c green banknote with a gutter arrow.
S.158 on cover. Canceled on a railroad mailroom - Worcester and Nashua railroad.
S.158
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07:09:43pm
I don't have any with the gutter arrow (I must keep my eyes open for one!) but I do have several perfed on three sides. I guess I know why now!!
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re: Some early US how to identify
Do you have any US catalog?
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08:00:25am
re: Some early US how to identify
On line one, the blue green 4 cent Jackson is very nice. On line 2, the 2 cent carmine Washintons look to be no. 220 ( there are no caps on any of the 2s). Line 3 is a pair of no. 226. Lines 4 and 5 are the 1, 2 and 4 cent Columbians of 1894. Lines 6-10 with corner triangles need to be checked for watermarks. Line 10 at the end is the 2 cent Trans-Mississippi issue of 1897. Line 11 is the 1 and 2 cent of the Pan-American issue of 1901.
The most valuable is the 4 cent Jackson with a 2017 CV of 27.50. The rest would probably CV 20-25.00 depending on what they are. Not a bad starter group.
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09:14:16am
re: Some early US how to identify
@snowy12
If your catalog is a Scott Specialzed of the United States, if not go to your library and see if they have one.
Your stamps appear to have been issued 1870s - 1905 time frame.
Don't be concerned with watermarks at this time, that will come later.
Match up the catalog pictures with you stamps. Some stamps were issued more than once, don't worry about that now.
If possible sometimes the person who put this collection together would mark the reverse with the catalog number.
You should be able to identify most of your stamps this way.
Good luck
1898
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re: Some early US how to identify
Thankyou all for your input ,1898 our local library doesnh't even carry Stanley Gibbons I will check and see if they have a number on the reverse .
Thankyou joesm for the your help .Question is it safe to soak the hinges off these stamps?
Any help is greatly appreciated as I know nothing about US stamps.
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re: Some early US how to identify
I normally soak hinges off of US stamps from that era and so far have not had any issues. (I also try to erase any pencil marks on the backs...)
Josh
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08:26:47pm
re: Some early US how to identify
"I also try to erase any pencil marks on the backs", which can lead to thins (please don't ask me how I know this)!
1898
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
05 Jul 2023
11:49:15pm
re: Some early US how to identify
Brian,
Open Google,
Type in; Kenmorestamps.com/US-stamp-identifier
TTFN
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re: Some early US how to identify
Charlie and Brian,
I don't believe that Kenmore's website has that feature anymore.
I haven't seen it there in quite a long while.
And Brian,
Even though your catalog for US is from 1965, you should be able to ID them all using it.
Not much if any has changed for ID'ing the issues you are showing above.
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re: Some early US how to identify
Scott (or Stamp) numbers:
R1 210, 210, 213, 213, 211 (nice stamp)
R2 219, 219D (is it Lake?), 219D, 220, 223
R3 226, 226
R4 230, 230, 231
R5 233
R6 247, 248-52, 248-52
R7 258 or 273, 259,74
R8 246?, 247, 247, 253 or 268
R9 254 or 269, 256 or 271, 258 or 273, 258 or 273, 279
R10 279, 281, 283, 283, 286
R11 294, 295
R12 300 304 (nice stamp)
R13 307 309
R14 64 (assuming no grill), 206, 179 or 180, 147 (assuming no grill), 160 or 209 or ?
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re: Some early US how to identify
Yes, same design. I see I assigned the one you posted as S.64 -- bad on me. That is not a 64 but a 65. Sorry about that. The only difference between the two is color. And there is a range of colors for 64s and for 65s. Scott has assigned several sub numbers also along with shades without sub-numbers. All very confusing.
The main difference is all 64s (scarce to rare and expensive) are shades of pink while all 65s (all inexpensive and poorly centered) are shades of rose and red. To further make it interesting, the ink used will/can become very brown due to exposure to certain conditions.
I'll post some examples of each in my next post.
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re: Some early US how to identify
First a S.64 pink
And a S.65 rose
And a S.65 that has turned brown
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Jul 2023
11:16:33am
re: Some early US how to identify
I know I have both so I checked and noticed I had the numbers reversed. Not sure why but I decided ton just leave it for a while!
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re: Some early US how to identify
This same design also comes with various grills and thus more numbers:
S.79 A grill
S.82 B (not collectable)
S.83 C
S.85 D
S.85C Z
S.88 E
S.94 F
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01:51:01pm
re: Some early US how to identify
@banknoteguy
Reference your posting Jack
07 Jul 2023
07:05:41am
In regards to "And a S.65 that has turned brown", is it assumed to be a 65 or could it be a 64 that turned?
1898
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re: Some early US how to identify
It could be either but much more likely to be a 65. What happens is that lead in the pigments fixes sulphur from the air and thus the brown color. It is commonly called oxidation but it is really sulphurization. It happens to some other colors of stamps also -- blue sometimes. Cape triangles come to mind.
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05:29:33pm
re: Some early US how to identify
@banknoteguy
Use the old timer trick of soaking the stamp in Hydrogen Peroxide will restore sulphurization!
1898
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re: Some early US how to identify
I think it would be classified as a perforation error. Imperf pairs are not a thing for 19th century US (at least as far as I have seen in four years of active collecting). Not like for some countries where they are listed in catalogues. But someone else may have a different perspective ...
Btw this is a S.147 produced by the National Bank Note company. S.136 is identical except with a grill on hard paper. S.158 tiny difference in design by Continental Banknote company on hard paper. S.184 same tiny difference in design by American Banknote company on soft paper. S.207 slight difference in design/color also by ABC on soft paper.
Below is a S.136 photoed to show the grill from the front:
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re: Some early US how to identify
This is exactly why these are so much fun - time and effort
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
04:19:54pm
re: Some early US how to identify
Could the stamp be giving part of a gutter pair? I'm not sure if this stamp was printed using contact (?) sheets made up of 4 sheets of stamp and Brian actually has a stamp combined with a gutter and part of the stamp on the other side.
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04:58:01pm
re: Some early US how to identify
@Everyone
Hope someone can explain Harvey's posting of "08 Jul 2023 04:19:54pm", maybe I'm extra dense today, but I have no idea what Harvey is saying?
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
05:13:02pm
re: Some early US how to identify
I'll explain more fully, or try to. Many sheets of US stamps were actually originally done up as 4 sheets in one larger sheet which I have seen called a contact sheet. So picture a large sheet made up of four sheets upper right, upper left, lower right and lower left. These sheets were often separated by a gaps called a gutter. So picture a square cross with a sheet of stamps in each corner. Here's a simple example of a "gutter pair" where you have two stamps separated by the gap between the two sheets, https://www.ebay.com/itm/256131301339. The only difference is that these are imperforates. I think that maybe Brian has the left hand stamp and part of the right hand one. I could be out to lunch though!! It wouldn't be the first, or the last, time! also note that all gutters are not the same width and sometimes there are perfs on both sides of the gutter and sometimes not. This makes sense to me but I have quite a few gutter pairs, line pairs, line singles, line blocks, arrow line pairs and blocks, gutter blocks, cross gutter blocks, etc - but that's several other stories!! Check this out: https://stampsmarter.org/1847usa/Farleys ... Sometimes the four smaller sheets are separated by lines. giving line pairs, blocks, etc., sometimes just spaces. I hope all this helps 1898, if not, I really tried, but I don't have a way to scan!
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05:51:09pm
re: Some early US how to identify
@Harvey
I think I understand now, in my mind the way you explained it can be one of two ways.
Let me know which one it is #1 or #2!
#1 4 individual sheets of stamps were printed at different times and then somehow put together (glued?) and called a contact sheet.
#2 One sheet of stamps printed which contained 4 panes of stamps (not called contact sheet) called a sheet.
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
05:56:53pm
re: Some early US how to identify
It's #2! I think you're also right about panes and sheets. I'm still not sure if that's what Brian is dealing with though. I would have to check but I'm not sure if the panes and sheets go back that far without doing a bit of research.
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re: Some early US how to identify
It is possible that the stamp in question is part of a "gutter pair" but does not look like the gutter is as wide as I would expect. I am pretty certain (but could not find this in Brookman) that this issue was printed in a sheet of 200 i.e. two side by side panes of 100 each (10x10) and would not have been perforated in the gutter. The panes would have been cut apart with I assume a paper cutter.
Brookman does say that this issue (3c National banknote) is known imperf (but was not issued that way) and that a large imperf block existed at one time.
Scott does not mention any imperfs nor a gutter pair.
Example of what a gutter between panes looks like on a 2c banknote (note the arrowhead pointing where to cut):
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08 Jul 2023
06:11:59pm
re: Some early US how to identify
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
06:16:31pm
re: Some early US how to identify
A very interesting discussion - lots of great stamp information here!!!
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re: Some early US how to identify
I do like banknotes . I found I had a similar stamp on cover to the S.147 being discussed. Cover sent from one place in Ohio to another in 1875. This stamp however is an S.158 printed by the Continental banknote company.
S.158 (Continental banknote company)
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
06:41:16pm
re: Some early US how to identify
That's great Jack, but what in heck is it?
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re: Some early US how to identify
Well I think it pretty much has to be the gutter between panes, even though it does not seem as wide as the one on the 2c banknote. But if anyone else knows better, please enlighten us. When the panes were cut apart the cutter was misaligned and did not cut through the middle of the gutter but rather took part of a whole column of stamps.
I am looking through my banknotes to see if I have anymore related examples.
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08 Jul 2023
06:52:08pm
re: Some early US how to identify
"what in heck is it?"
The printed sheet of 200 stamps (from the printing plate) consists of 2 panes of 100 stamps each, separated by a narrow gutter. The panes are then cut apart down the gutter. This is a mis-cutting of the gutter between the two panes. And, from the number of readily available examples posted here, a fairly common occurrence.
Roy
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
07:02:20pm
re: Some early US how to identify
Thanks Roy!! Makes sense. I sort of remember the two side by side sheets and a miscut should be fairly common. So it is sort of a foreshortened part of a gutter pair. I don't seem to remember seeing gutter pairs of these older stamps but they should exist!!
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re: Some early US how to identify
Definitely concur with Roy. I did find another example of the 3c green banknote with a gutter arrow.
S.158 on cover. Canceled on a railroad mailroom - Worcester and Nashua railroad.
S.158
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
07:09:43pm
re: Some early US how to identify
I don't have any with the gutter arrow (I must keep my eyes open for one!) but I do have several perfed on three sides. I guess I know why now!!
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