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United States/BOB & Other : Offsett Example

 

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

30 Jun 2023
09:52:06pm
A total offset like this (The original post is no longer present.) is called an "abklatsch" which I believe translates as "a poor imitation". It is produced in a way that I saw explained once but can't quite remember. It has something to do with ink remaining on the roller coming in contact with the back of the sheet of stamps. If I can find the explanation again I'll post a copy. I have two examples - one with an early Canada Queen Victoria stamp and the other with a Newfoundland stamp. I'll have a friend scan the fronts and backs for me when I have supper with her on Sunday evening and post the photos on Monday. Both of the stamps were picked up at reasonable prices from people on this site. If anyone can explain how the process is accomplished could you please do so. It is not the normal offset process if I remember correctly!
I did a bit of digging and found this on line in a site called Stamp Community.

"Depending upon the printing process, they can also happen when a sheet of paper doesn't feed, and the stamp image is 'printed' directly onto the press. The next sheet of paper through the press can get inked on both the front and the back, with the back being mirrored."


A regular offset is explained like this from the same site.

"Offset printing, or more correctly, a setoff. This happens when damp sheets of stamps are stacked on top of one another; it is NOT a printing process, which is why the term "setoff" is more correct."


Link to site conversation quoted: https://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp ...

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

01 Jul 2023
10:22:37am
re: Offsett Example

Is there some particular reason why the original post was deleted? It seems a bit odd for me to have a comment about a stamp that is no longer there! Should I continue this and have my friend photograph the two abklatsch examples when the reason for my post no longer exists? It was a very interesting example for a very interesting topic, I'm just curious why it is no longer there!

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

02 Jul 2023
06:45:50pm
re: Offsett Example

Here are the stamps I mentioned. The first two are the abklatsch stamps I mentioned and the third is printed on gum side.
The first image shows the fronts of the three stamps and the second shows the backs.
The first two were picked up from two SOR sellers, if they want to ID themselves they can but I'd rather not do it myself in case they object. The third stamp has been in my collection for a very long time and I was buying from someone who dealt mostly in errors/varieties. Great stuff, these are the items that really make a collection interesting rather than just a bunch of stamps.
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

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sheepshanks
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02 Jul 2023
08:00:59pm
re: Offsett Example

Nice examples Harvey, thanks for showing them.

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

02 Jul 2023
10:05:24pm
re: Offsett Example

The one that confuses me out of the three is the printed on gum side 460fi. They must have made an awful lot of them (no # quoted in Unitrade) because the mint value (obviously no used value is given) is only $25. It seems to me that a whole bunch were printed before they realized what they were doing and they ended up in the hands of dealers who sold them to anyone who wanted one. Does anybody out there have more information on this stamp?
Newfoundland 263i listed as reverse offset lists for $300 mint and $180 used. Someone would get a real shock after soaking it off paper and remember the image is under the gum so it could be used! Remember that the order in producing stamps is almost always 1) print 2) gum 3) perforate. I ran into the description of a stamp once where 2) and 3) were reversed. They said it would be very difficult to determine if the stamp had been re-gummed.
There is no reverse offset mentioned for #34. I have no idea of a price for something like this but the regular price is only $30 so I'd guess a price of about $100.
I got very good prices on these two stamps from SOR sellers! Our people really do have some amazing stuff!!!

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1898

03 Jul 2023
10:41:11am
re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

Reference the 460fi.

For this issue was the stamp paper gummed before printing? Which does not make sense.

Or was the stamp paper printed first and then gummed? Which would make more sense.

I assume the catalog you got the 460fi will have this informaion!

What does the catalog say about this issue.

1898

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

03 Jul 2023
02:09:12pm
re: Offsett Example

1898 The catalog says nothing about this stamp other than it exists and gives a price. Since this is a specialist catalog my guess is that nothing is known about how many were released and where they ended up. The gum is on top of the printing as with almost all stamps. The order for almost every stamp is print, followed by gum followed by perforations. You would not find this stamp used because even if you did figure out to lick the side with the Queen on it you would have to stick it on the envelope with the blank side up. The only way to actually use the stamp would be with glue or tape and I doubt if anyone would do that! There must be an awful lot of them out there for there to only be a $25 price!!

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1898

03 Jul 2023
05:43:15pm
re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

Might I suggest you check the Scott Catalog to see it has better information. Whatever catalog you have now doesn't seem to have any specialist information!

Offsett's are worth hardly anything, just an interesting item.

1898

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

03 Jul 2023
06:05:55pm
re: Offsett Example

"Offsett's are worth hardly anything, just an interesting item."


The price isn't really what's important, they make life interesting. And The Unitrade is the go-to book for Canadian Prices and when they quote a price I believe it! Scott's doesn't even list the Newfoundland stamp. Ask any serious Canadian collector which catalog they use for varieties and they will say Unitrade. They have more specialist information than any other catalog out there and list all major varieties. You must have some interest if full offsets since you started this topic.

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

03 Jul 2023
06:17:02pm
re: Offsett Example

My cat just jumped up to say "Hi" so I showed him my offset stamps. Now Obi never says much but at least he didn't make a negative comment - he purred!! I think he likes them!

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1898

03 Jul 2023
06:37:47pm
re: Offsett Example

Just something I thought was neat and it was dirt cheap.

1898

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

03 Jul 2023
07:08:09pm
re: Offsett Example

1898 - Total offsets (abklatsch) are quite rare from the small number you see and if you got it cheap you did very well!

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1898

03 Jul 2023
09:52:36pm
re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

I did a little research on your 460fi, do you know which die it is?

1898

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

03 Jul 2023
10:06:23pm
re: Offsett Example

Of course I know which die it is! It's die 1a exactly as it's supposed to be. I have been collecting Canadian stamps for more than 50 years, I know what I'm doing!! I'm finished with all of the questions. I put it in the picture because it is an interesting stamp, not so I can answer a bunch of questions. There is nothing wrong with the stamp, it's exactly what it is supposed to be! It's not very valuable because I assume a lot of them got to the market. I really wish I knew the numbers but if Unitrade doesn't tell the numbers then they are probably not available.
EDIT: And before you ask, it has to be 1a because that is the only one that is perforated 12 by 12 as opposed to 12 by 12.5 or 10 by 10. When I get a stamp, and before I give it a number, I do my very best to identify it properly. I occasionally make a mistake, as I'm sure we all do, but I really do my best to get it right!

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1898

03 Jul 2023
10:29:35pm
re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

Sorry I asked, as I don't have the stamp in front of me to examine.

1898

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

03 Jul 2023
10:46:58pm
re: Offsett Example

"Sorry I asked, as I don't have the stamp in front of me to examine."


You'll just have to trust me, I guess! It really is IDed properly. I could send you the stamp but I would really prefer not to. I put the stamp there because it was interesting. It had nothing to do with your original post, which seemed to disappear. So just look at the two full offsets and forget about the "printed on gum side" stamp.
I'm really not trying to make you upset David. I think I'm finished with this particular post. It has served the only purpose I intended, to show a couple interesting stamps. I appreciate your knowledge and hope I said nothing to upset you!
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1898

03 Jul 2023
11:50:50pm
re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

No need to send me your stamp, I really trust you did a great job with the ID.

It's my fault, as your picture did not mention which die it was. It was just today I found out the stamp has different dies. Again my fault as I love stamps and like to talk about them.

I deleted the original scans as I thought I should do research, and found out there are more than one die. I'm researching the dies and plan to give a better description. But I may not post it as it seems no one is interested.

It's funny as all the research I've done so far no one refers to these offsetts as abklatsch, my bad is this how they are described where you live?

Again, I'm very sorry I asked about the dies.

1898


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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

04 Jul 2023
01:41:20pm
re: Offsett Example

Harvey,

not sure if this has already been addressed, but all stamps are printed before gum is added. I suppose it is as easy to print AFTER gumming as it is gumming ON the printed side, but both of these are errors of manufacturing.

David

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roy
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04 Jul 2023
03:55:59pm
re: Offsett Example

"all stamps are printed before gum is added"



Afraid that's not true.

From Unitrade Canada catalog, applicable to the Admiral issue of Canada:

Image Not Found

I am pretty sure that the Canada Centennial definitives with the transparent (white) PVA gum were also printed on pre-gummed paper, but have been unable to find corroborating references. I am sure the definitive guide to the Centennial issue (I forget the author) would go into this. I think I gave away my copy of this book.

If so, the ink of #460fi is on top of the gum, which matches my recollection.

Roy

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

04 Jul 2023
04:59:22pm
re: Offsett Example

"The order for almost every stamp is print, followed by gum followed by perforations."


I said this above and your post certainly shows there were exceptions. I really don't want to lick it to find out for sure but with my stamp it certainly looks like the gum is on top of the image. I twisted it in the light and the entire surface appears to be shiny. Can't be 100% sure though, it really isn't easy to tell!! I thought it would be but I'm probably only about 90% convinced!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
30 Jun 2023
09:52:06pm

A total offset like this (The original post is no longer present.) is called an "abklatsch" which I believe translates as "a poor imitation". It is produced in a way that I saw explained once but can't quite remember. It has something to do with ink remaining on the roller coming in contact with the back of the sheet of stamps. If I can find the explanation again I'll post a copy. I have two examples - one with an early Canada Queen Victoria stamp and the other with a Newfoundland stamp. I'll have a friend scan the fronts and backs for me when I have supper with her on Sunday evening and post the photos on Monday. Both of the stamps were picked up at reasonable prices from people on this site. If anyone can explain how the process is accomplished could you please do so. It is not the normal offset process if I remember correctly!
I did a bit of digging and found this on line in a site called Stamp Community.

"Depending upon the printing process, they can also happen when a sheet of paper doesn't feed, and the stamp image is 'printed' directly onto the press. The next sheet of paper through the press can get inked on both the front and the back, with the back being mirrored."


A regular offset is explained like this from the same site.

"Offset printing, or more correctly, a setoff. This happens when damp sheets of stamps are stacked on top of one another; it is NOT a printing process, which is why the term "setoff" is more correct."


Link to site conversation quoted: https://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp ...

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
01 Jul 2023
10:22:37am

re: Offsett Example

Is there some particular reason why the original post was deleted? It seems a bit odd for me to have a comment about a stamp that is no longer there! Should I continue this and have my friend photograph the two abklatsch examples when the reason for my post no longer exists? It was a very interesting example for a very interesting topic, I'm just curious why it is no longer there!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
02 Jul 2023
06:45:50pm

re: Offsett Example

Here are the stamps I mentioned. The first two are the abklatsch stamps I mentioned and the third is printed on gum side.
The first image shows the fronts of the three stamps and the second shows the backs.
The first two were picked up from two SOR sellers, if they want to ID themselves they can but I'd rather not do it myself in case they object. The third stamp has been in my collection for a very long time and I was buying from someone who dealt mostly in errors/varieties. Great stuff, these are the items that really make a collection interesting rather than just a bunch of stamps.
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

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sheepshanks

02 Jul 2023
08:00:59pm

re: Offsett Example

Nice examples Harvey, thanks for showing them.

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
02 Jul 2023
10:05:24pm

re: Offsett Example

The one that confuses me out of the three is the printed on gum side 460fi. They must have made an awful lot of them (no # quoted in Unitrade) because the mint value (obviously no used value is given) is only $25. It seems to me that a whole bunch were printed before they realized what they were doing and they ended up in the hands of dealers who sold them to anyone who wanted one. Does anybody out there have more information on this stamp?
Newfoundland 263i listed as reverse offset lists for $300 mint and $180 used. Someone would get a real shock after soaking it off paper and remember the image is under the gum so it could be used! Remember that the order in producing stamps is almost always 1) print 2) gum 3) perforate. I ran into the description of a stamp once where 2) and 3) were reversed. They said it would be very difficult to determine if the stamp had been re-gummed.
There is no reverse offset mentioned for #34. I have no idea of a price for something like this but the regular price is only $30 so I'd guess a price of about $100.
I got very good prices on these two stamps from SOR sellers! Our people really do have some amazing stuff!!!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
1898

03 Jul 2023
10:41:11am

re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

Reference the 460fi.

For this issue was the stamp paper gummed before printing? Which does not make sense.

Or was the stamp paper printed first and then gummed? Which would make more sense.

I assume the catalog you got the 460fi will have this informaion!

What does the catalog say about this issue.

1898

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Jul 2023
02:09:12pm

re: Offsett Example

1898 The catalog says nothing about this stamp other than it exists and gives a price. Since this is a specialist catalog my guess is that nothing is known about how many were released and where they ended up. The gum is on top of the printing as with almost all stamps. The order for almost every stamp is print, followed by gum followed by perforations. You would not find this stamp used because even if you did figure out to lick the side with the Queen on it you would have to stick it on the envelope with the blank side up. The only way to actually use the stamp would be with glue or tape and I doubt if anyone would do that! There must be an awful lot of them out there for there to only be a $25 price!!

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1898

03 Jul 2023
05:43:15pm

re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

Might I suggest you check the Scott Catalog to see it has better information. Whatever catalog you have now doesn't seem to have any specialist information!

Offsett's are worth hardly anything, just an interesting item.

1898

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Jul 2023
06:05:55pm

re: Offsett Example

"Offsett's are worth hardly anything, just an interesting item."


The price isn't really what's important, they make life interesting. And The Unitrade is the go-to book for Canadian Prices and when they quote a price I believe it! Scott's doesn't even list the Newfoundland stamp. Ask any serious Canadian collector which catalog they use for varieties and they will say Unitrade. They have more specialist information than any other catalog out there and list all major varieties. You must have some interest if full offsets since you started this topic.

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Jul 2023
06:17:02pm

re: Offsett Example

My cat just jumped up to say "Hi" so I showed him my offset stamps. Now Obi never says much but at least he didn't make a negative comment - he purred!! I think he likes them!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
1898

03 Jul 2023
06:37:47pm

re: Offsett Example

Just something I thought was neat and it was dirt cheap.

1898

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Jul 2023
07:08:09pm

re: Offsett Example

1898 - Total offsets (abklatsch) are quite rare from the small number you see and if you got it cheap you did very well!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
1898

03 Jul 2023
09:52:36pm

re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

I did a little research on your 460fi, do you know which die it is?

1898

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Jul 2023
10:06:23pm

re: Offsett Example

Of course I know which die it is! It's die 1a exactly as it's supposed to be. I have been collecting Canadian stamps for more than 50 years, I know what I'm doing!! I'm finished with all of the questions. I put it in the picture because it is an interesting stamp, not so I can answer a bunch of questions. There is nothing wrong with the stamp, it's exactly what it is supposed to be! It's not very valuable because I assume a lot of them got to the market. I really wish I knew the numbers but if Unitrade doesn't tell the numbers then they are probably not available.
EDIT: And before you ask, it has to be 1a because that is the only one that is perforated 12 by 12 as opposed to 12 by 12.5 or 10 by 10. When I get a stamp, and before I give it a number, I do my very best to identify it properly. I occasionally make a mistake, as I'm sure we all do, but I really do my best to get it right!

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1898

03 Jul 2023
10:29:35pm

re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

Sorry I asked, as I don't have the stamp in front of me to examine.

1898

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Jul 2023
10:46:58pm

re: Offsett Example

"Sorry I asked, as I don't have the stamp in front of me to examine."


You'll just have to trust me, I guess! It really is IDed properly. I could send you the stamp but I would really prefer not to. I put the stamp there because it was interesting. It had nothing to do with your original post, which seemed to disappear. So just look at the two full offsets and forget about the "printed on gum side" stamp.
I'm really not trying to make you upset David. I think I'm finished with this particular post. It has served the only purpose I intended, to show a couple interesting stamps. I appreciate your knowledge and hope I said nothing to upset you!
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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
1898

03 Jul 2023
11:50:50pm

re: Offsett Example

@Harvey

No need to send me your stamp, I really trust you did a great job with the ID.

It's my fault, as your picture did not mention which die it was. It was just today I found out the stamp has different dies. Again my fault as I love stamps and like to talk about them.

I deleted the original scans as I thought I should do research, and found out there are more than one die. I'm researching the dies and plan to give a better description. But I may not post it as it seems no one is interested.

It's funny as all the research I've done so far no one refers to these offsetts as abklatsch, my bad is this how they are described where you live?

Again, I'm very sorry I asked about the dies.

1898


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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
04 Jul 2023
01:41:20pm

re: Offsett Example

Harvey,

not sure if this has already been addressed, but all stamps are printed before gum is added. I suppose it is as easy to print AFTER gumming as it is gumming ON the printed side, but both of these are errors of manufacturing.

David

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04 Jul 2023
03:55:59pm

re: Offsett Example

"all stamps are printed before gum is added"



Afraid that's not true.

From Unitrade Canada catalog, applicable to the Admiral issue of Canada:

Image Not Found

I am pretty sure that the Canada Centennial definitives with the transparent (white) PVA gum were also printed on pre-gummed paper, but have been unable to find corroborating references. I am sure the definitive guide to the Centennial issue (I forget the author) would go into this. I think I gave away my copy of this book.

If so, the ink of #460fi is on top of the gum, which matches my recollection.

Roy

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Jul 2023
04:59:22pm

re: Offsett Example

"The order for almost every stamp is print, followed by gum followed by perforations."


I said this above and your post certainly shows there were exceptions. I really don't want to lick it to find out for sure but with my stamp it certainly looks like the gum is on top of the image. I twisted it in the light and the entire surface appears to be shiny. Can't be 100% sure though, it really isn't easy to tell!! I thought it would be but I'm probably only about 90% convinced!
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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
        

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