Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
04:29:08pm
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@Harvey
You must understand the history of 519.
Suggest you do some research as I recall it is very interesting.
I would provide the history and back ground but my reference material books have been packed getting ready to the move back home.
The shipping cost does appear to be high, but I really don't know.
What I can tell you is this is one of the stamps where a perforation gauge using the metric standard will misled you, you wuold need the Kiusalas gauge!
1898
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06:16:49pm
I know the history of the stamp, the fact that it was manufactured using the waste material from a previous stamp which was imperforate and the 519 stamp was perforated 11. In Scott's the perforation is described as the number of "holes" that exist in a 2 cm distance. Now since the US is not metric it sort of seems like there might be a problem here - maybe! Are you implying that #519 would not show up as a perforation of 11 on a modern guide? I don't see this mentioned anywhere in the US Scott's Specialized unless I just don't know where to look. If this is true it puts the perforation of all US stamps in jeopardy. Could someone please explain this to me in language that I can readily understand? In other words if I were to look at the perforations of US Scott #519 would it be 11 or something else?
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@Harvey
I'm trying to remember, the 519 on a Kiusalas (thousands of an inch) would gauge something like 11-73, or 11-72, or 11-70!
Hope this helps you.
1898
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06:36:57pm
"11-73, or 11-72, or 11-70!"
I would understand it much better if you would explain what the 73, 72 and 70 mean. I obviously don't have the same amount of knowledge as you do! Please explain in terms I can understand.
Edit: If you check my quote at the bottom of each of my posts I consider myself to be more of a generalist than an expert! I am more of a stamp collector than a stamp expert. You have knowledge in some areas that I could only dream of possessing!
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@Harvey
The second number ""11-73, or 11-72, or 11-70" is the right and proper standard thousands of an inch, does this help?
1898
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@Harvey
When was it announched to the stamp collectors (discovery), if I remember correctly (?) it was 1937.
Does your research mention how many sheets were reissued?
1898
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09:32:37pm
"if I were to look at the perforations of US Scott #519 would it be 11 "
I still assume the stamp would have perforations that measure 11! There is no way a perforation guide could measure 11 70/1000 th. It's interesting to know and I really appreciate the information but, when it comes right down to it, it still is a perf 11.
"Does your research mention how many sheets were reissued?
"
I really didn't do research, I just looked at my Scott's US Specialized. They didn't say how many sheets were done, only that "only that lower left panes of No. 344 were used". They also mentioned that forgeries do exist.
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@Harvey
Perhaps I'm not sure how you are measuring the perforation gauge, standard is thousands of an inch between the perforation holes that's the right and proper way to gauge the perforations.
This is why there are numbers 11-70, 11-72, 11-73! You stated it as "11 70/1000 th." on the gauge it's stated as 11-70 (see scan), you said a gauge could not measure this, but here it is!
Perhaps you should ask yourself why there are 3 standards during this period! There were many thousands of an inch spacing between perforation holes starting a little before the war, during the war, and a few years after the war!
On the scan see perforations 10-81, 10-80, 10-79.
Let me give you an example, many years ago I discovered a 544, but my 544 is unique as it the only one that measures 11-73, where as the normal 544 is 11-72!
If you still don't understand, then there is nothing more I can offer.
1898
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10:14:19pm
"If you still don't understand, then there is nothing more I can offer."
I didn't say I didn't understand, but I just use a regular perforation guide and it would measure 11 on my guide and, even though it is very interesting, it doesn't help ID the stamp as being, or not being, number 519. You are a perfectionist and to you a 519 that measures 11-72 would be different from one that measures 11-70. To me, even though I find it interesting, they are both a #519. Just two ways of looking at the process, both are good, neither IMHO is better than the other. I think you will disagree with that but we're different and that's great! There are many ways to collect and, again, that's fine!
This is a healthy disagreement between two serious stamp collectors. Disagreements, as long as no one gets nasty, are healthy and good for the hobby. Thanks!!
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@Harvey
One last thought, why on the scan of the performation gauge why are there horz. rows of black dots that stand in for performations? Your way there only needs one black dot for each performation measurement. One black dot for 11, one for 10 so on and so on. You are not concerned about the spaces between the performations!
Good subject, lots of interesting thoughts.
1898
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08:13:26am
"Good subject, lots of interesting thoughts."
I agree! There was a nice copy of the stamp in question on E-bay and it was with someone I had good experiences with. I bid $180 and decided not to go any higher. I'd like to learn a bit more about the stamp and the reproductions, and how good they are, before I spend that kind of money. I appreciate your way of collecting but with all the areas I collect I really don't have the time to really analyze every stamp. It's also not the way I do things. But it's people who collect the way you do that find all the errors/varieties that many of us look for. Thanks for an interesting discussion and I hope we have many more!
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@Harvey
You said " I'd like to learn a bit more about the stamp and the reproductions, and how good they are, before I spend that kind of money. ", then the best resource I know of is a book by Martin Armstrong, Washington-Franklins 1908-1921!
1898
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@Harvey
I asked a friend Mr. Neiss, he reported the 519 was reissued Oct 1917, with 24,000,000 issued. I thought the 519 were made aware of stamp collectors in 1937, Mr. Neiss he it was the latter park of the 1920s!
Thank You Mr. Neiss
1898
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11:34:56am
Thanks 1898, I'll have a look for the book!
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@Harvey
So are people nuts?
1898
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03:03:32pm
Considering most prices for that stamp are over $1000 and no one seems to be offering a certificate I think most sellers assume the buyers are nuts!! If the sellers assume they will sell the stamps I guess they are as well!
"are people nuts?"
There's a quote I remember from somewhere that goes something like this:
Everyone is nuts except you and me and sometimes I'm not sure about you.
I think that being a little bit crazy is a good thing, it helps us put up with all the crazy stuff we run into on a daily basis. A truly completely sane person would certainly go nuts trying to deal with daily events. There was a well known song writer from the 1970's era by the name of Tom Lehrer who wrote some amazing political satire. He supposedly quit writing this type of material when Reagan was elected president saying something to the effect of "How could I ever beat that?". Being nuts now-a-days seems to be more of an asset than a hindrance, IMHO!
Note: Please do not turn this into a political comment, it's only meant to be a bit of humour! My God, I sound like Ian and his "trigger comment"!
By the way Tom Lehrer really is worth checking out if you're not familiar with him. Just make sure you leave your ability to take offence at the door. He once claimed that he was willing to make fun of anyone, no matter what their race, colour, creed or religion. If I remember right he was threatened with excommunication after "The Vatican Rag" was released and his songs were actually banned in some areas!!
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04:31:22pm
I've been doing a bit of research on US # 519. I certainly don't claim to be an expert but if this is perfed 11 and is fake the only possibility seems to be if it was a perforated imperforate stamp. That's the only way I could see ending up with that particular stamp, assuming it is double line watermarked as it's supposed to be. How in heck can you tell if it's a reperfed imperforate that just happened to have large margins? There's one on E-Bay that I bid up to $180 on that I'm not going to bid higher on. Am I reading the situation correctly for this stamp - if it's fake with the proper watermark it has to be a reperf. Other perfs for this stamp seem to be 12 and you can't change a 12 into an 11.
EDIT: This whole thing is a bit ironic anyway considering this #519 was made from partial sheets of inperforate stamps in the first place.
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I don't understand why Kiusala gauge is more accurate than metric gauge.
I will do a small conversion calculation from inches to mm.
0.070 x 25.4 = 1.778mm = distance between 2 holes
To find out which metric gauge I use, I do a little calculation:
2cm = 20mm : 1.778 = 11.248 or as noted on metric gauge 11 1/4.
The same for Kiulasa 72 and 73.
The result is 11 and 10 3/4.
All this exists on metric gauge and if you compare the series of black dots from Kiulasa 11 72 with the metric one of 11, you will notice that they overlap perfectly.
I don't understand why the perforations are rounded in the Scott catalog.
I did not find out from the discussion what the perforation of 519 actually is, if it is not 11 (Kiulasa 11-72)?
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@Harvey
Perhaps I'd suggest you research how to fake performations, it's very interesting and important if you want to collect Wash/Frank 1908-1921 stamps.
You will find info on fake pers in that book I recommended.
1898
@gerom
The Kiusalas gauge is not more accurate than a metric performation by it self, but measuring perfs on U.S. stamp it based on the standard thousands of an inch and not metric! When you determine the perfs on a stamp you are measuring the paper area between the perf holes, not the holes themself!
1898
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Scott #519 is very often faked. In my opinion the best book for the W/F issues of 1908-1923 is The Expert’s Book, A Practical Guide to the Authentication of United States Stamps, by Paul W. Schmid. The book goes in to great detail on the issues mentioned and gives very concise information on Perf measurement, design measurement, watermark detection as well as determination of printing method. The author highly recommends that anyone purchasing a Scott #519, purchase only with a certificate. Mr. Schmid is also the author of How to Detect Damaged, Altered and Repaired Stamps.
I have no knowledge of the publication that 1898 mentioned, but it sounds as if it may also be a very good book in helping to ID the W/F
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@Harvey
I made a math error on my posting of "27 Jun 2023 11:18:29am"! The error was 24,000,000 stamps, actualy the correct number should have been 1,200,000 stamps!
I'm surprised no one caught my error!
Thank you Mr. Neiss
1898
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@1898
I have always used a transparent ruler to measure perforations.
I place the edge of the ruler tangent to the holes (thus making sure that the edge of the ruler is parallel to the center line of the holes)
I carefully center the line of the number 10 on the axis of the hole.
I usually measure the distance over 10 holes, so that the reading error has a smaller weight when calculating the perforation.
I estimated that the distance is 16.8 mm, but it can also be 16.7 or 16.9 (here the reading error appears)
So the distance between the centers of two neighboring holes is 1.68mm.
To find out the number of perforations per 2 cm (20mm):
20; 1.68 = 11.90 so 12 on the metric gauge.
If I want to use the Kiulasa gauge, I convert it to thousandths of an inch.
1.68 : 25.4 x 1000 = 66.14 so 12-66 on Kiulasa gauge.
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@gerom
Wow, you must like the extra detail it takes, do you measure all 4 sides of perfs. this way?
I have no idea how Nigeria stamps, what the standard was, either metric or thousands of an inch or some other standard?
I only collect U.S.A. stamps and the gauge I use measures the measurment between the perf. holes, not in the perf. holes as you have done here.
It must take you some time to set up each measurment. U.S.A. stamps and the Kiusalas gauge it's very simple go no go type of perf. gauge.
Thank You
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@1898
Of course I measure the perforations on all sides of the stamp.
It does not last more than 1 min.
Collecting German stamps (the Michel specialized catalog is very precise in the description of the perforation) before measuring them I identify whether they are combined (K) or in a line (L).
There are cases in which 4 perforations are given (unfortunately, I forgot which side it starts from and the clockwise or counter-clockwise direction)
I checked my 25pf stamps (buildings - Bizone/Allied Occupation Germany 1948) a few years ago and did not find the valuable variants.
Can you tell me the exact perforation of the Scott 519? (or did I misunderstand that 11 is rounded?)
PS. If you see a French stamp with perforation in the line, there is no need to measure it - it is a forgery.
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@gerom
Hi, #519 gauge 11-72.
1898
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@1898
Thank you
Converting to metric, the result is 10.93.
Metric gauge 11 can be used without problems
George
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10:51:21am
"Hi, #519 gauge 11-72."
A couple things!
First, the stamp I had bid $180 on went for $314 USD. It was well below what most people were asking but too high for me since no certificate was provided. That being said, it was a dealer I've had many good dealings with in the past.
Second, about #519 being 11-72. Did you measure a copy you have or did you get this information from a catalog you have or was it on line information? There's no problem, I'm just curious! If it was from a catalog, which one? It might be a good one to own!
Third, where this 11-72 is very precise, is it consistent over all copies of 519? It's the precision that bothers me a bit. If several runs were done for certain stamps you would almost expect this exact number might vary a bit. Again, just curious!
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@gerom
You are correct, a metric gauge can be used for stamps that are thousands of an inch standard, that's always been the case, but if you want to be more accurate (can make a big difference for book value) I highly ecommend using the original Kiusalas gauge!
1898
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You want to measure the perfs on #519 because it can be faked by adding perfs to something like a #344.That is why accuracy of measurements is important, if you don’t have a certificate. So use the proper gauge and measurements when a stamp is expensive. It’s worth it. Well centered 519s with wide margins can be expensive at auction, especially with a certificate. Quality is everything.
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@HungaryForStamps
Considering the value of #519, do you think it wise to use a metric perf. gauge on this stamp?
1898
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Yes... I would be very confident to use my Uni-Trade "Perfect Gauge" to measure that stamp. Your Kiusalas gauge can measure to 0.001" (11-71; 11-72; and 11-73). Whereas, the Uni-Trade metric gauge can measure easily the same accuracy (perforations of 11.1; 10.9; and 10.8) and everything in between.
0.070" = 0.1778 cm
2.0 cm/0.1778 cm = perforation 11.25
0.071" = 0.18034 cm
2.0 cm/0.18034 cm = perforation 11.09
0.072" = 0.18288 cm
2.0 cm/0.18288 cm = perforation 10.94
0.073" = 0.18542 cm
2.0 cm/0.18542 cm = perforation 10.79
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Scott 2023 Specialized has a 519, unused at $425, and MNH at $900.00. Most likely most 519 offered MNH are regummed. Used the stamp catalogues at $1,800.00 (in italics). Big risk of fake perfs with that, would be my guess. Seems that in any condition, a cert is a must.
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@Everyone
There is a very interesting article in the May 2023 issue of the American Philatelist, this is writen by 3 people. The first person Mr. Randy Shoemaker deals primary with U.S.A. stamps, but there is one little bit of information on Canadian stamps.
I recommend everyone read the entire 3 articles, I've just scan one topic here from the U.S.A. stamp section which I think you will find interesting!
1898
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"Considering the value of #519, do you think it wise to use a metric perf. gauge on this stamp?"
I use the Scott US specialist gauge, when necessary, for US stamps, which means when the stamp is expensive or the area, e.g. Washington Franklins, is confusing. Otherwise I use a simple workhorse standard gauge or something else depending on the specialty area. As for metric, I wasn’t sure any US citizen truly embraced metric for measuring US material, though maybe we should have adopted it for measuring everything decades ago.Things would seem bigger then, wouldn’t they?
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@Everyone
So this on ebay, passing it along!
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Jun 2023
04:29:08pm
I was looking through my US album and came to the page where all I am missing is #519 - the 1917 two cent Washington, double line watermark. So I looked it up on E-Bay thinking, since it was only $400 mint (2016 Scott's), I might get lucky. The prices were insane, most well over $1000! Do the sellers really think people are going to pay that kind of money? I see this sort of garbage all the time! If Greg were to offer this with his US material I would expect about $200 and would gladly pay it. But over $1000 with most shipping costs at least $40!! Crazy!!
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05:28:52pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
You must understand the history of 519.
Suggest you do some research as I recall it is very interesting.
I would provide the history and back ground but my reference material books have been packed getting ready to the move back home.
The shipping cost does appear to be high, but I really don't know.
What I can tell you is this is one of the stamps where a perforation gauge using the metric standard will misled you, you wuold need the Kiusalas gauge!
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Jun 2023
06:16:49pm
re: Are people nuts?
I know the history of the stamp, the fact that it was manufactured using the waste material from a previous stamp which was imperforate and the 519 stamp was perforated 11. In Scott's the perforation is described as the number of "holes" that exist in a 2 cm distance. Now since the US is not metric it sort of seems like there might be a problem here - maybe! Are you implying that #519 would not show up as a perforation of 11 on a modern guide? I don't see this mentioned anywhere in the US Scott's Specialized unless I just don't know where to look. If this is true it puts the perforation of all US stamps in jeopardy. Could someone please explain this to me in language that I can readily understand? In other words if I were to look at the perforations of US Scott #519 would it be 11 or something else?
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06:31:12pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
I'm trying to remember, the 519 on a Kiusalas (thousands of an inch) would gauge something like 11-73, or 11-72, or 11-70!
Hope this helps you.
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Jun 2023
06:36:57pm
re: Are people nuts?
"11-73, or 11-72, or 11-70!"
I would understand it much better if you would explain what the 73, 72 and 70 mean. I obviously don't have the same amount of knowledge as you do! Please explain in terms I can understand.
Edit: If you check my quote at the bottom of each of my posts I consider myself to be more of a generalist than an expert! I am more of a stamp collector than a stamp expert. You have knowledge in some areas that I could only dream of possessing!
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07:30:17pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
The second number ""11-73, or 11-72, or 11-70" is the right and proper standard thousands of an inch, does this help?
1898
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08:17:11pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
When was it announched to the stamp collectors (discovery), if I remember correctly (?) it was 1937.
Does your research mention how many sheets were reissued?
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Jun 2023
09:32:37pm
re: Are people nuts?
"if I were to look at the perforations of US Scott #519 would it be 11 "
I still assume the stamp would have perforations that measure 11! There is no way a perforation guide could measure 11 70/1000 th. It's interesting to know and I really appreciate the information but, when it comes right down to it, it still is a perf 11.
"Does your research mention how many sheets were reissued?
"
I really didn't do research, I just looked at my Scott's US Specialized. They didn't say how many sheets were done, only that "only that lower left panes of No. 344 were used". They also mentioned that forgeries do exist.
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10:00:48pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
Perhaps I'm not sure how you are measuring the perforation gauge, standard is thousands of an inch between the perforation holes that's the right and proper way to gauge the perforations.
This is why there are numbers 11-70, 11-72, 11-73! You stated it as "11 70/1000 th." on the gauge it's stated as 11-70 (see scan), you said a gauge could not measure this, but here it is!
Perhaps you should ask yourself why there are 3 standards during this period! There were many thousands of an inch spacing between perforation holes starting a little before the war, during the war, and a few years after the war!
On the scan see perforations 10-81, 10-80, 10-79.
Let me give you an example, many years ago I discovered a 544, but my 544 is unique as it the only one that measures 11-73, where as the normal 544 is 11-72!
If you still don't understand, then there is nothing more I can offer.
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Jun 2023
10:14:19pm
re: Are people nuts?
"If you still don't understand, then there is nothing more I can offer."
I didn't say I didn't understand, but I just use a regular perforation guide and it would measure 11 on my guide and, even though it is very interesting, it doesn't help ID the stamp as being, or not being, number 519. You are a perfectionist and to you a 519 that measures 11-72 would be different from one that measures 11-70. To me, even though I find it interesting, they are both a #519. Just two ways of looking at the process, both are good, neither IMHO is better than the other. I think you will disagree with that but we're different and that's great! There are many ways to collect and, again, that's fine!
This is a healthy disagreement between two serious stamp collectors. Disagreements, as long as no one gets nasty, are healthy and good for the hobby. Thanks!!
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11:29:38pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
One last thought, why on the scan of the performation gauge why are there horz. rows of black dots that stand in for performations? Your way there only needs one black dot for each performation measurement. One black dot for 11, one for 10 so on and so on. You are not concerned about the spaces between the performations!
Good subject, lots of interesting thoughts.
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Jun 2023
08:13:26am
re: Are people nuts?
"Good subject, lots of interesting thoughts."
I agree! There was a nice copy of the stamp in question on E-bay and it was with someone I had good experiences with. I bid $180 and decided not to go any higher. I'd like to learn a bit more about the stamp and the reproductions, and how good they are, before I spend that kind of money. I appreciate your way of collecting but with all the areas I collect I really don't have the time to really analyze every stamp. It's also not the way I do things. But it's people who collect the way you do that find all the errors/varieties that many of us look for. Thanks for an interesting discussion and I hope we have many more!
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08:40:27am
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
You said " I'd like to learn a bit more about the stamp and the reproductions, and how good they are, before I spend that kind of money. ", then the best resource I know of is a book by Martin Armstrong, Washington-Franklins 1908-1921!
1898
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11:18:29am
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
I asked a friend Mr. Neiss, he reported the 519 was reissued Oct 1917, with 24,000,000 issued. I thought the 519 were made aware of stamp collectors in 1937, Mr. Neiss he it was the latter park of the 1920s!
Thank You Mr. Neiss
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Jun 2023
11:34:56am
re: Are people nuts?
Thanks 1898, I'll have a look for the book!
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01:00:17pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
So are people nuts?
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Jun 2023
03:03:32pm
re: Are people nuts?
Considering most prices for that stamp are over $1000 and no one seems to be offering a certificate I think most sellers assume the buyers are nuts!! If the sellers assume they will sell the stamps I guess they are as well!
"are people nuts?"
There's a quote I remember from somewhere that goes something like this:
Everyone is nuts except you and me and sometimes I'm not sure about you.
I think that being a little bit crazy is a good thing, it helps us put up with all the crazy stuff we run into on a daily basis. A truly completely sane person would certainly go nuts trying to deal with daily events. There was a well known song writer from the 1970's era by the name of Tom Lehrer who wrote some amazing political satire. He supposedly quit writing this type of material when Reagan was elected president saying something to the effect of "How could I ever beat that?". Being nuts now-a-days seems to be more of an asset than a hindrance, IMHO!
Note: Please do not turn this into a political comment, it's only meant to be a bit of humour! My God, I sound like Ian and his "trigger comment"!
By the way Tom Lehrer really is worth checking out if you're not familiar with him. Just make sure you leave your ability to take offence at the door. He once claimed that he was willing to make fun of anyone, no matter what their race, colour, creed or religion. If I remember right he was threatened with excommunication after "The Vatican Rag" was released and his songs were actually banned in some areas!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Jun 2023
04:31:22pm
re: Are people nuts?
I've been doing a bit of research on US # 519. I certainly don't claim to be an expert but if this is perfed 11 and is fake the only possibility seems to be if it was a perforated imperforate stamp. That's the only way I could see ending up with that particular stamp, assuming it is double line watermarked as it's supposed to be. How in heck can you tell if it's a reperfed imperforate that just happened to have large margins? There's one on E-Bay that I bid up to $180 on that I'm not going to bid higher on. Am I reading the situation correctly for this stamp - if it's fake with the proper watermark it has to be a reperf. Other perfs for this stamp seem to be 12 and you can't change a 12 into an 11.
EDIT: This whole thing is a bit ironic anyway considering this #519 was made from partial sheets of inperforate stamps in the first place.
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05:00:41pm
re: Are people nuts?
I don't understand why Kiusala gauge is more accurate than metric gauge.
I will do a small conversion calculation from inches to mm.
0.070 x 25.4 = 1.778mm = distance between 2 holes
To find out which metric gauge I use, I do a little calculation:
2cm = 20mm : 1.778 = 11.248 or as noted on metric gauge 11 1/4.
The same for Kiulasa 72 and 73.
The result is 11 and 10 3/4.
All this exists on metric gauge and if you compare the series of black dots from Kiulasa 11 72 with the metric one of 11, you will notice that they overlap perfectly.
I don't understand why the perforations are rounded in the Scott catalog.
I did not find out from the discussion what the perforation of 519 actually is, if it is not 11 (Kiulasa 11-72)?
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05:44:52pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
Perhaps I'd suggest you research how to fake performations, it's very interesting and important if you want to collect Wash/Frank 1908-1921 stamps.
You will find info on fake pers in that book I recommended.
1898
@gerom
The Kiusalas gauge is not more accurate than a metric performation by it self, but measuring perfs on U.S. stamp it based on the standard thousands of an inch and not metric! When you determine the perfs on a stamp you are measuring the paper area between the perf holes, not the holes themself!
1898
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re: Are people nuts?
Scott #519 is very often faked. In my opinion the best book for the W/F issues of 1908-1923 is The Expert’s Book, A Practical Guide to the Authentication of United States Stamps, by Paul W. Schmid. The book goes in to great detail on the issues mentioned and gives very concise information on Perf measurement, design measurement, watermark detection as well as determination of printing method. The author highly recommends that anyone purchasing a Scott #519, purchase only with a certificate. Mr. Schmid is also the author of How to Detect Damaged, Altered and Repaired Stamps.
I have no knowledge of the publication that 1898 mentioned, but it sounds as if it may also be a very good book in helping to ID the W/F
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08:05:38pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Harvey
I made a math error on my posting of "27 Jun 2023 11:18:29am"! The error was 24,000,000 stamps, actualy the correct number should have been 1,200,000 stamps!
I'm surprised no one caught my error!
Thank you Mr. Neiss
1898
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09:19:07pm
re: Are people nuts?
@1898
I have always used a transparent ruler to measure perforations.
I place the edge of the ruler tangent to the holes (thus making sure that the edge of the ruler is parallel to the center line of the holes)
I carefully center the line of the number 10 on the axis of the hole.
I usually measure the distance over 10 holes, so that the reading error has a smaller weight when calculating the perforation.
I estimated that the distance is 16.8 mm, but it can also be 16.7 or 16.9 (here the reading error appears)
So the distance between the centers of two neighboring holes is 1.68mm.
To find out the number of perforations per 2 cm (20mm):
20; 1.68 = 11.90 so 12 on the metric gauge.
If I want to use the Kiulasa gauge, I convert it to thousandths of an inch.
1.68 : 25.4 x 1000 = 66.14 so 12-66 on Kiulasa gauge.
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10:43:48pm
re: Are people nuts?
@gerom
Wow, you must like the extra detail it takes, do you measure all 4 sides of perfs. this way?
I have no idea how Nigeria stamps, what the standard was, either metric or thousands of an inch or some other standard?
I only collect U.S.A. stamps and the gauge I use measures the measurment between the perf. holes, not in the perf. holes as you have done here.
It must take you some time to set up each measurment. U.S.A. stamps and the Kiusalas gauge it's very simple go no go type of perf. gauge.
Thank You
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03:53:42am
re: Are people nuts?
@1898
Of course I measure the perforations on all sides of the stamp.
It does not last more than 1 min.
Collecting German stamps (the Michel specialized catalog is very precise in the description of the perforation) before measuring them I identify whether they are combined (K) or in a line (L).
There are cases in which 4 perforations are given (unfortunately, I forgot which side it starts from and the clockwise or counter-clockwise direction)
I checked my 25pf stamps (buildings - Bizone/Allied Occupation Germany 1948) a few years ago and did not find the valuable variants.
Can you tell me the exact perforation of the Scott 519? (or did I misunderstand that 11 is rounded?)
PS. If you see a French stamp with perforation in the line, there is no need to measure it - it is a forgery.
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08:31:14am
re: Are people nuts?
@gerom
Hi, #519 gauge 11-72.
1898
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10:03:22am
re: Are people nuts?
@1898
Thank you
Converting to metric, the result is 10.93.
Metric gauge 11 can be used without problems
George
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
28 Jun 2023
10:51:21am
re: Are people nuts?
"Hi, #519 gauge 11-72."
A couple things!
First, the stamp I had bid $180 on went for $314 USD. It was well below what most people were asking but too high for me since no certificate was provided. That being said, it was a dealer I've had many good dealings with in the past.
Second, about #519 being 11-72. Did you measure a copy you have or did you get this information from a catalog you have or was it on line information? There's no problem, I'm just curious! If it was from a catalog, which one? It might be a good one to own!
Third, where this 11-72 is very precise, is it consistent over all copies of 519? It's the precision that bothers me a bit. If several runs were done for certain stamps you would almost expect this exact number might vary a bit. Again, just curious!
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10:53:23am
re: Are people nuts?
@gerom
You are correct, a metric gauge can be used for stamps that are thousands of an inch standard, that's always been the case, but if you want to be more accurate (can make a big difference for book value) I highly ecommend using the original Kiusalas gauge!
1898
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re: Are people nuts?
You want to measure the perfs on #519 because it can be faked by adding perfs to something like a #344.That is why accuracy of measurements is important, if you don’t have a certificate. So use the proper gauge and measurements when a stamp is expensive. It’s worth it. Well centered 519s with wide margins can be expensive at auction, especially with a certificate. Quality is everything.
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08:18:49pm
re: Are people nuts?
@HungaryForStamps
Considering the value of #519, do you think it wise to use a metric perf. gauge on this stamp?
1898
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re: Are people nuts?
Yes... I would be very confident to use my Uni-Trade "Perfect Gauge" to measure that stamp. Your Kiusalas gauge can measure to 0.001" (11-71; 11-72; and 11-73). Whereas, the Uni-Trade metric gauge can measure easily the same accuracy (perforations of 11.1; 10.9; and 10.8) and everything in between.
0.070" = 0.1778 cm
2.0 cm/0.1778 cm = perforation 11.25
0.071" = 0.18034 cm
2.0 cm/0.18034 cm = perforation 11.09
0.072" = 0.18288 cm
2.0 cm/0.18288 cm = perforation 10.94
0.073" = 0.18542 cm
2.0 cm/0.18542 cm = perforation 10.79
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09:58:37pm
re: Are people nuts?
Scott 2023 Specialized has a 519, unused at $425, and MNH at $900.00. Most likely most 519 offered MNH are regummed. Used the stamp catalogues at $1,800.00 (in italics). Big risk of fake perfs with that, would be my guess. Seems that in any condition, a cert is a must.
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09:59:30pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Everyone
There is a very interesting article in the May 2023 issue of the American Philatelist, this is writen by 3 people. The first person Mr. Randy Shoemaker deals primary with U.S.A. stamps, but there is one little bit of information on Canadian stamps.
I recommend everyone read the entire 3 articles, I've just scan one topic here from the U.S.A. stamp section which I think you will find interesting!
1898
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re: Are people nuts?
"Considering the value of #519, do you think it wise to use a metric perf. gauge on this stamp?"
I use the Scott US specialist gauge, when necessary, for US stamps, which means when the stamp is expensive or the area, e.g. Washington Franklins, is confusing. Otherwise I use a simple workhorse standard gauge or something else depending on the specialty area. As for metric, I wasn’t sure any US citizen truly embraced metric for measuring US material, though maybe we should have adopted it for measuring everything decades ago.Things would seem bigger then, wouldn’t they?
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01:32:48pm
re: Are people nuts?
@Everyone
So this on ebay, passing it along!
1898
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