Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
So what is a damaged stamp?
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01:41:09pm
It is a different thing to different people. I don't see a small crease as real damage even though it probably detracts from the value somewhat. Some people look at a bit of pencil IDing on the back of the stamp as damage. It's on the back so unless it's an actual thin, to me it's on the back and I can live with it. If something takes away from the value it doesn't have to be considered damage. What it comes down to is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Also if someone is asking questions about a certain aspect of a stamp that is what we should probably comment on, IMHO.
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Aa Harvey says, the line between imperfections and full-on "damage" is in the eye of the beholder. But an ethical description should include any suboptimalities that would be revealed by a reasonably thorough examination - thins, creases, short perfs, pencil markings - as these would affect the market value and potentially the enjoyment of the stamp by its owner.
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A damaged stamp is any stamp with physical deformities or alterations made AFTER being sold by the issuing government agency. Types of damage include:
Creases
Tears
Thins
Missing, torn out sections
Scrapes and scuffs
Trimmed or short perforations
Holes
Extremely heavy obliterative cancels, pen or marker cancels
Stains
Toning or rust
Mold
Gum disturbance
Excessive UV fading
Pencilling or writing on the backs, especially if these cause embossing to the paper
Damage from improper soaking such as pelling the back while paper is soft or inadequate removal of self adhesive
Repairs or regumming
There are also types of damage that apply to multiples and covers such as perforation separation, etc.
Misperforations, inking flaws, miscuts, etc. are considered errors or freaks and are caused during the printing process and can often be quite valuable, while damaged stamps usually have little value. The reduction in value is usually proportional to the severity of the damage and the original value of the stamp.
(Modified by Moderator on 2023-04-24 11:38:06)
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@auctmod, thank you for your posting! Looks like a lot of work.
What would you think if a government direction required a stamp to be cut as part of a cancel? Would this be considered damaged, or would it be considered undamaged?
Thank you
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If the cuts are intentional as some US document stamps are when the are attached to a document, I think it is still damaged but does not take away from the value.
Some US stamps during the 1860's and 70's were cut as an experiment in prevention of reuse. These command a premium.
Vince
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11:16:56am
I know many things are considered as damage, but it really depends on what we are willing to put up with. I don't consider a bit of light penciling on the back of a stamp something that would stop me from buying a stamp I wanted. I also am not upset by hinge remnants, small glue disturbances on rarer mint stamps, cut cancellations on revenues since they are in a reduced category anyway and small creases on desirable items. But we are all different, which is good. We have to be a bit more flexible when rarer items are concerned, again in my opinion only!
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It is up to each collector to decide what amount of “damage” is acceptable for a stamp they wish to add to their collection.
HOWEVER, if you are a dealer or an auctioneer SELLING a stamp, any damage should be described.
Stamporama rules are as follows:
C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot.
C8b. Single stamps and sets of stamps with a general catalog value of less than $5.00 USD that contain any or all of the defects described in Rule C8a may not be offered for sale in the auctions. No damaged stamps may be sold in the approvals.
C8c. Stamps that have extraneous writing or markings in pencil may be offered for sale in the auctions, but this condition must be disclosed in the item description. The same applies to owner/authentication marks (see also Rule C2 regarding these marks).
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Everyone has different standards. I’m not quite as particular about some faults as an others, for example I don’t get extremely freaked out about a short perforation or two. But I don’t feel right about sending something like that to a trading pal who goes bonkers if they get them.
I guess the important thing is to not force your standards on others. That’s why I like buying from Auction houses that describe the faults. I want to be the one who decides what is OK for my collection. If the crappy stuff isn’t described, then someone is trying to force you into unwillingly accepting their lower standards. Lol reminds me of a joke;
“I’ve upped my standards, up yours”.
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I like the combined responses from Theresa and auctmod, which pretty much lay out SOR's position on faults.
It is THAT we should observe when listing stamps in our auctions and approvals (note the greater stringency in the approval section).
What each of us considers a fault is important to us, but not to the general SOR community; instead, at least on the two platforms, we conform to a single set of rules.
David, one of SOR's auctioneers
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It may be a good idea to have visual examples of each type of defect and have all sellers get familiar with these.
It will also be useful to have visual materials on how to remove hinged stamps from a page, how to soak stamps, how to deal with self-adhesive stamps and so on.
We can call it something like a Knowledge Base / Library - a set of useful articles for all collectors.
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I think the definition of "damage" should be objective, and what is considered acceptable for one's own collection can be subjective. I like auctmod's list.
I've been sorting through envelopes of old stamps lately - I would almost be willing to argue any hinge residue on used stamps a form of damage as sometimes it makes the stamps stick together enough to peel ink off the face of another stamp.
Josh
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07:15:38pm
"It will also be useful to have visual materials on how to remove hinged stamps from a page"
The answer to that is very carefully!! I recently transferred my entire Cuba collection from pages that I hinged stamps to years ago to a beautiful set of full colour pages. I learned the hard way that older stamps from Cuba were very fragile and left the hinges on the stamp. Even handling them was a delicate process and I'm going to use top loading black mounting for all stamps from now on and if the hinges are left on the stamp, then so be it. It's better than damaging the stamps. I damaged a couple while doing the transfer, thankfully they were not any of the more valuable ones. Even soaking the stamps would have involved handling them so I leave it to the next owner to remove the hinges.
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I would add hinging since the term is used over gum distance. It could also be paper stuck to back of stamp.
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Yes, Hinging can increase the risk of causing damage to a stamp and hinging a MNH stamp instantly affects its value, but hinging can be done without inflicting permanent damage. Hinging is not damage. It is the improper removal of a hinge that causes damage.
We have several approval sellers who neatly hinge their approvals sheets. The pictures make it clearly obvious to our buyers that the stamps are hinged and as long as the buyers are happy with the stamps they receive from the sellers who use hinges, then hinging is not an issue.
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08:03:16am
I think that once we consider the "hinge mark" as being damage we are starting to be just a bit silly. That means that almost every classic stamp has to be considered to be damaged!!
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"It is the improper removal of a hinge that causes damage."
I take the purist view so no wiggle room. My thinking is you start with a perfect stamp. Anything less is some type of degradation whether intentional or not,.
If there is a tell tale mark from a hinge then the gum has been disturbed. Like hinges, I see pencil marks not totally unexpected but they both should be disclosed. Hinging has multiple sub-classifications - lightly hinged, heavy hinged, hinge remnant.
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For most used stamps, you can soak the hinge mark off.
For mint stamps, I have seen heavily hinged enough where the gum and the hinge curve differently in changes in humidity. This causes the stamp to crease or fold. Or sometimes looking at albums full of hinged stamps where a bulge from a hinge is visible from the front of the stamp.
Josh
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"I think that once we consider the "hinge mark" as being damage we are starting to be just a bit silly."
We will need a definition of "hinge mark" then. Disturbed glue can be considered damage to a Mint stamp as it can no longer be MNH. It can however become a perfectly good MNG.
Improperly removing a hinge will cause a thin spot on the stamp, which will turn the stamp into a damaged stamp no matter how you look at it - MNH, MH, MNG, used.......it just becomes a damaged stamp.
I have always wondered why no one has come up with some paper repair kit - like paper filler to patch thin spots on stamps. It seems like something that can be done. If it comes in a bottle like the white out liquid, but we have many different shades of white, light yellow, grey etc, a collector will select the appropriate color for the stamp in question and apply it.
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I know how you feel, Al, I really don't like hinges either.
I reduce my bid on a USED collection by about 25-50% or don't bid at all if it is hinged. It's a lot of extra work to soak off the hinges and you risk damaging the stamps when removing them from the album even if you use the "slice the hinge with the tongs" maneuver.
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07:10:27pm
We are all different and we all look at stamps a different way. For some reason what the back of the stamp looks like has never mattered that much to me. I don't mind pencil marks as long as they are not heavy enough to emboss the stamp. I also don't mind hinge remnants as long as no thins exist. But as I said we are all different and that's a good thing!!
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To me, the degree of damage to a stamp, cover, or postcard is inversely proportional to my desire to add the stamp, cover, or postcard to my collection. I would never buy a damaged item if I was confident that I could buy an undamaged copy of it. However, if a damaged item fits into my collecting interests, if I'm unlikely ever to see another, I'll buy it (or keep it). This wartime telegram is a good example. It was sent by my paternal Aunt Bea to my Uncle Philip Ingraham, who was in New Caledonia, congratulating him on his promotion to Master Sergeant.
Here are a couple of others stamps of in my Channel Islands collection. Not until the aftermath of the Second World War did the Channel Islands start missing their own stamp. Prior to that, and before the German Occupation, they used British stamps. These two stamps nicely illustrate that historical fact; the fact that the stamps are badly damaged does not detract from the clear evidence that they are British (one is from a postal card) and were cancelled in Jersey:
It's interesting that they were both cancelled at the same time, though probably years apart.
In my opinion, the biggest mistake stamp collectors can make is to buy stamps only because of their supposed value as investments. Stamps are not good financial investments, but you just can't make a better investment if your goals include learning more about the world and its history.
I will admit to being a condition hound. To me, there's nothing worse than a set of stamps in which one stamp is clearly damaged, poorly centred, or cancelled by a USPS or Canada Post resident chimpanzee!
Bob
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01:32:18pm
In a recent posting I thought there was a damaged stamp, then another posting stated it was not a damaged stamp!
So what is a damaged stamp?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
23 Apr 2023
01:41:09pm
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
It is a different thing to different people. I don't see a small crease as real damage even though it probably detracts from the value somewhat. Some people look at a bit of pencil IDing on the back of the stamp as damage. It's on the back so unless it's an actual thin, to me it's on the back and I can live with it. If something takes away from the value it doesn't have to be considered damage. What it comes down to is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Also if someone is asking questions about a certain aspect of a stamp that is what we should probably comment on, IMHO.
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10:17:13pm
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
Aa Harvey says, the line between imperfections and full-on "damage" is in the eye of the beholder. But an ethical description should include any suboptimalities that would be revealed by a reasonably thorough examination - thins, creases, short perfs, pencil markings - as these would affect the market value and potentially the enjoyment of the stamp by its owner.
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08:10:34am
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
A damaged stamp is any stamp with physical deformities or alterations made AFTER being sold by the issuing government agency. Types of damage include:
Creases
Tears
Thins
Missing, torn out sections
Scrapes and scuffs
Trimmed or short perforations
Holes
Extremely heavy obliterative cancels, pen or marker cancels
Stains
Toning or rust
Mold
Gum disturbance
Excessive UV fading
Pencilling or writing on the backs, especially if these cause embossing to the paper
Damage from improper soaking such as pelling the back while paper is soft or inadequate removal of self adhesive
Repairs or regumming
There are also types of damage that apply to multiples and covers such as perforation separation, etc.
Misperforations, inking flaws, miscuts, etc. are considered errors or freaks and are caused during the printing process and can often be quite valuable, while damaged stamps usually have little value. The reduction in value is usually proportional to the severity of the damage and the original value of the stamp.
(Modified by Moderator on 2023-04-24 11:38:06)
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09:43:42am
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
@auctmod, thank you for your posting! Looks like a lot of work.
What would you think if a government direction required a stamp to be cut as part of a cancel? Would this be considered damaged, or would it be considered undamaged?
Thank you
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
If the cuts are intentional as some US document stamps are when the are attached to a document, I think it is still damaged but does not take away from the value.
Some US stamps during the 1860's and 70's were cut as an experiment in prevention of reuse. These command a premium.
Vince
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
24 Apr 2023
11:16:56am
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
I know many things are considered as damage, but it really depends on what we are willing to put up with. I don't consider a bit of light penciling on the back of a stamp something that would stop me from buying a stamp I wanted. I also am not upset by hinge remnants, small glue disturbances on rarer mint stamps, cut cancellations on revenues since they are in a reduced category anyway and small creases on desirable items. But we are all different, which is good. We have to be a bit more flexible when rarer items are concerned, again in my opinion only!
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11:31:34am
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
It is up to each collector to decide what amount of “damage” is acceptable for a stamp they wish to add to their collection.
HOWEVER, if you are a dealer or an auctioneer SELLING a stamp, any damage should be described.
Stamporama rules are as follows:
C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot.
C8b. Single stamps and sets of stamps with a general catalog value of less than $5.00 USD that contain any or all of the defects described in Rule C8a may not be offered for sale in the auctions. No damaged stamps may be sold in the approvals.
C8c. Stamps that have extraneous writing or markings in pencil may be offered for sale in the auctions, but this condition must be disclosed in the item description. The same applies to owner/authentication marks (see also Rule C2 regarding these marks).
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
Everyone has different standards. I’m not quite as particular about some faults as an others, for example I don’t get extremely freaked out about a short perforation or two. But I don’t feel right about sending something like that to a trading pal who goes bonkers if they get them.
I guess the important thing is to not force your standards on others. That’s why I like buying from Auction houses that describe the faults. I want to be the one who decides what is OK for my collection. If the crappy stuff isn’t described, then someone is trying to force you into unwillingly accepting their lower standards. Lol reminds me of a joke;
“I’ve upped my standards, up yours”.
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Auctions
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
I like the combined responses from Theresa and auctmod, which pretty much lay out SOR's position on faults.
It is THAT we should observe when listing stamps in our auctions and approvals (note the greater stringency in the approval section).
What each of us considers a fault is important to us, but not to the general SOR community; instead, at least on the two platforms, we conform to a single set of rules.
David, one of SOR's auctioneers
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this post
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
It may be a good idea to have visual examples of each type of defect and have all sellers get familiar with these.
It will also be useful to have visual materials on how to remove hinged stamps from a page, how to soak stamps, how to deal with self-adhesive stamps and so on.
We can call it something like a Knowledge Base / Library - a set of useful articles for all collectors.
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
I think the definition of "damage" should be objective, and what is considered acceptable for one's own collection can be subjective. I like auctmod's list.
I've been sorting through envelopes of old stamps lately - I would almost be willing to argue any hinge residue on used stamps a form of damage as sometimes it makes the stamps stick together enough to peel ink off the face of another stamp.
Josh
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
24 Apr 2023
07:15:38pm
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
"It will also be useful to have visual materials on how to remove hinged stamps from a page"
The answer to that is very carefully!! I recently transferred my entire Cuba collection from pages that I hinged stamps to years ago to a beautiful set of full colour pages. I learned the hard way that older stamps from Cuba were very fragile and left the hinges on the stamp. Even handling them was a delicate process and I'm going to use top loading black mounting for all stamps from now on and if the hinges are left on the stamp, then so be it. It's better than damaging the stamps. I damaged a couple while doing the transfer, thankfully they were not any of the more valuable ones. Even soaking the stamps would have involved handling them so I leave it to the next owner to remove the hinges.
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
I would add hinging since the term is used over gum distance. It could also be paper stuck to back of stamp.
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07:41:45am
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
Yes, Hinging can increase the risk of causing damage to a stamp and hinging a MNH stamp instantly affects its value, but hinging can be done without inflicting permanent damage. Hinging is not damage. It is the improper removal of a hinge that causes damage.
We have several approval sellers who neatly hinge their approvals sheets. The pictures make it clearly obvious to our buyers that the stamps are hinged and as long as the buyers are happy with the stamps they receive from the sellers who use hinges, then hinging is not an issue.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Apr 2023
08:03:16am
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
I think that once we consider the "hinge mark" as being damage we are starting to be just a bit silly. That means that almost every classic stamp has to be considered to be damaged!!
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
"It is the improper removal of a hinge that causes damage."
I take the purist view so no wiggle room. My thinking is you start with a perfect stamp. Anything less is some type of degradation whether intentional or not,.
If there is a tell tale mark from a hinge then the gum has been disturbed. Like hinges, I see pencil marks not totally unexpected but they both should be disclosed. Hinging has multiple sub-classifications - lightly hinged, heavy hinged, hinge remnant.
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
For most used stamps, you can soak the hinge mark off.
For mint stamps, I have seen heavily hinged enough where the gum and the hinge curve differently in changes in humidity. This causes the stamp to crease or fold. Or sometimes looking at albums full of hinged stamps where a bulge from a hinge is visible from the front of the stamp.
Josh
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
"I think that once we consider the "hinge mark" as being damage we are starting to be just a bit silly."
We will need a definition of "hinge mark" then. Disturbed glue can be considered damage to a Mint stamp as it can no longer be MNH. It can however become a perfectly good MNG.
Improperly removing a hinge will cause a thin spot on the stamp, which will turn the stamp into a damaged stamp no matter how you look at it - MNH, MH, MNG, used.......it just becomes a damaged stamp.
I have always wondered why no one has come up with some paper repair kit - like paper filler to patch thin spots on stamps. It seems like something that can be done. If it comes in a bottle like the white out liquid, but we have many different shades of white, light yellow, grey etc, a collector will select the appropriate color for the stamp in question and apply it.
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
I know how you feel, Al, I really don't like hinges either.
I reduce my bid on a USED collection by about 25-50% or don't bid at all if it is hinged. It's a lot of extra work to soak off the hinges and you risk damaging the stamps when removing them from the album even if you use the "slice the hinge with the tongs" maneuver.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Apr 2023
07:10:27pm
re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
We are all different and we all look at stamps a different way. For some reason what the back of the stamp looks like has never mattered that much to me. I don't mind pencil marks as long as they are not heavy enough to emboss the stamp. I also don't mind hinge remnants as long as no thins exist. But as I said we are all different and that's a good thing!!
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re: Poll: What is a damaged stamp?
To me, the degree of damage to a stamp, cover, or postcard is inversely proportional to my desire to add the stamp, cover, or postcard to my collection. I would never buy a damaged item if I was confident that I could buy an undamaged copy of it. However, if a damaged item fits into my collecting interests, if I'm unlikely ever to see another, I'll buy it (or keep it). This wartime telegram is a good example. It was sent by my paternal Aunt Bea to my Uncle Philip Ingraham, who was in New Caledonia, congratulating him on his promotion to Master Sergeant.
Here are a couple of others stamps of in my Channel Islands collection. Not until the aftermath of the Second World War did the Channel Islands start missing their own stamp. Prior to that, and before the German Occupation, they used British stamps. These two stamps nicely illustrate that historical fact; the fact that the stamps are badly damaged does not detract from the clear evidence that they are British (one is from a postal card) and were cancelled in Jersey:
It's interesting that they were both cancelled at the same time, though probably years apart.
In my opinion, the biggest mistake stamp collectors can make is to buy stamps only because of their supposed value as investments. Stamps are not good financial investments, but you just can't make a better investment if your goals include learning more about the world and its history.
I will admit to being a condition hound. To me, there's nothing worse than a set of stamps in which one stamp is clearly damaged, poorly centred, or cancelled by a USPS or Canada Post resident chimpanzee!
Bob
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