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Europe/Other : Greece: Small Hermes head

 

Author
Postings
Calstamp

03 Jan 2023
01:31:21pm

This post pertains to the small Hermes head issues which began appearing in 1886 and continued for 10 years. My query concerns identification of the various imperforate issues/values.

Per Scott, there are five different groups: two imperforate, and three perforation varieties. Scott suggests the key to differentiating the various issues is print quality: Belgian (clear impression) vs. Athens (poor impression). However, Karamitsos (specialty catalogue) states the various Athens printings were produced using the same plates at the Belgian printings. (That is the "Belgian" plates were subsequently transferred to Athens.)

The online resource "Stamp Collecting World" suggests the key to differentiating is watermark: Belgian (no watermark) vs. Athens (horizontal sheet watermark).

Another online resource, The Intl Stamp Club of New York, suggests the determining factor is paper type. And then via an informative PowerPoint documents there are five (or six?) different paper types.

While Scott includes a short description of the "Athens" horiz sheet watermark, it does not provide an illustration. And no addtl insight is included in Karamitsos.

At this point am holding on to all imperforate issues pending an epiphany. And moving onto something simple such as China "martyr" issues and secret marks.

Bottom line: Conclude Scott's directive re print quality is clearly misleading.
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nigelc
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03 Jan 2023
02:04:18pm
re: Greece: Small Hermes head

Hi Jim,

"Scott suggests the key to differentiating the various issues is print quality: Belgian (clear impression) vs. Athens (poor impression). However, Karamitsos (specialty catalogue) states the various Athens printings were produced using the same plates at the Belgian printings. (That is the "Belgian" plates were subsequently transferred to Athens.)"


These two statements aren't in conflict.

To quote SG, "The Belgian-printed stamps may be distinguished from those of Athens by the impression being smoother and finer, and by the paper being more highly surfaced."

Early Athens printings of some values have a text watermark in Greek in double-lined capital letters across the middle and bottom of the sheet. The letters are about 36 mm high. There are also six short "E.X." texts six times in each sheet.

The text is given in both SG and Karamitsos though SG has a little more detail on the layout. The text is given in Karamitsos in the description of "Paper B" in the Small Hermes Heads introduction.

Karamitsos describes four papers for the Athens printings:

A - Thin, transparent, and coloured.

B - With or without watermark, thin to regular thickness, semi-transparent, full of irregular shapes, lightly coloured.

C - With "various qualities" of watermark or without, regular to carton thickness, not uniform, often soft and porous, full of dots.

D - Without watermark, medium, whitish, rough to the touch.

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nigelc
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03 Jan 2023
02:36:11pm
re: Greece: Small Hermes head

I have very few of these issues in my collection and I've just had a look through them.

None has a postmark early enough likely to be a Belgian printing and none shows any sign that I can see of having a partial watermark. Sad

Good luck in your search.

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Calstamp

03 Jan 2023
03:08:54pm
re: Greece: Small Hermes head


Thank you, Nigel. Appreciate the input from SG.

Concede there is some detail re watermark in Karamitsos. An oversight on my part.

Am still not fully convinced that Scott's comment re impression quality is accurate (or very "revealing").

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

03 Jan 2023
03:19:43pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Greece: Small Hermes head

I have found when sorting these most are obviously fine or coarse - difference is unmistakable. There are a fairly small percentage of them that "tends towards" one or the other but most of those fall into one camp or the other after a bit of soul searching.

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www.hipstamp.com/store/webpaper
auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

10 Jan 2023
01:18:34pm
re: Greece: Small Hermes head

I have moved the post that included the link to the document that provided examples relevant to the discussion titled "Flying Hermes" out of this thread and onto the correct one. I apologize for my error (and ignorance Big Grin ).

Regards ... Tim.

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"Isaac Asimov once said if his doctor told him he was dying, he wouldn’t lament, he would just type a little faster. "

mncancels.org
Calstamp

10 Jan 2023
01:50:37pm
re: Greece: Small Hermes head


Well, Tim, its all Greek to me.

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Author/Postings
Calstamp

03 Jan 2023
01:31:21pm


This post pertains to the small Hermes head issues which began appearing in 1886 and continued for 10 years. My query concerns identification of the various imperforate issues/values.

Per Scott, there are five different groups: two imperforate, and three perforation varieties. Scott suggests the key to differentiating the various issues is print quality: Belgian (clear impression) vs. Athens (poor impression). However, Karamitsos (specialty catalogue) states the various Athens printings were produced using the same plates at the Belgian printings. (That is the "Belgian" plates were subsequently transferred to Athens.)

The online resource "Stamp Collecting World" suggests the key to differentiating is watermark: Belgian (no watermark) vs. Athens (horizontal sheet watermark).

Another online resource, The Intl Stamp Club of New York, suggests the determining factor is paper type. And then via an informative PowerPoint documents there are five (or six?) different paper types.

While Scott includes a short description of the "Athens" horiz sheet watermark, it does not provide an illustration. And no addtl insight is included in Karamitsos.

At this point am holding on to all imperforate issues pending an epiphany. And moving onto something simple such as China "martyr" issues and secret marks.

Bottom line: Conclude Scott's directive re print quality is clearly misleading.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
nigelc

03 Jan 2023
02:04:18pm

re: Greece: Small Hermes head

Hi Jim,

"Scott suggests the key to differentiating the various issues is print quality: Belgian (clear impression) vs. Athens (poor impression). However, Karamitsos (specialty catalogue) states the various Athens printings were produced using the same plates at the Belgian printings. (That is the "Belgian" plates were subsequently transferred to Athens.)"


These two statements aren't in conflict.

To quote SG, "The Belgian-printed stamps may be distinguished from those of Athens by the impression being smoother and finer, and by the paper being more highly surfaced."

Early Athens printings of some values have a text watermark in Greek in double-lined capital letters across the middle and bottom of the sheet. The letters are about 36 mm high. There are also six short "E.X." texts six times in each sheet.

The text is given in both SG and Karamitsos though SG has a little more detail on the layout. The text is given in Karamitsos in the description of "Paper B" in the Small Hermes Heads introduction.

Karamitsos describes four papers for the Athens printings:

A - Thin, transparent, and coloured.

B - With or without watermark, thin to regular thickness, semi-transparent, full of irregular shapes, lightly coloured.

C - With "various qualities" of watermark or without, regular to carton thickness, not uniform, often soft and porous, full of dots.

D - Without watermark, medium, whitish, rough to the touch.

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likes this post.
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nigelc

03 Jan 2023
02:36:11pm

re: Greece: Small Hermes head

I have very few of these issues in my collection and I've just had a look through them.

None has a postmark early enough likely to be a Belgian printing and none shows any sign that I can see of having a partial watermark. Sad

Good luck in your search.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Calstamp

03 Jan 2023
03:08:54pm

re: Greece: Small Hermes head


Thank you, Nigel. Appreciate the input from SG.

Concede there is some detail re watermark in Karamitsos. An oversight on my part.

Am still not fully convinced that Scott's comment re impression quality is accurate (or very "revealing").

Like
Login to Like
this post
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

03 Jan 2023
03:19:43pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Greece: Small Hermes head

I have found when sorting these most are obviously fine or coarse - difference is unmistakable. There are a fairly small percentage of them that "tends towards" one or the other but most of those fall into one camp or the other after a bit of soul searching.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
10 Jan 2023
01:18:34pm

re: Greece: Small Hermes head

I have moved the post that included the link to the document that provided examples relevant to the discussion titled "Flying Hermes" out of this thread and onto the correct one. I apologize for my error (and ignorance Big Grin ).

Regards ... Tim.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Isaac Asimov once said if his doctor told him he was dying, he wouldn’t lament, he would just type a little faster. "

mncancels.org
Calstamp

10 Jan 2023
01:50:37pm

re: Greece: Small Hermes head


Well, Tim, its all Greek to me.

Like
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this post
        

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