Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I am seeing quite a few books with damaged stamps here and there as of late;
PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF RULE C8b listed in the Selling Rules which states, "...NO DAMAGED STAMPS MAY BE SOLD IN THE APPROVALS."
One? Maybe 2? I can overlook it as unintentional.
But if NUMEROUS damaged stamps are found, the offending book WILL be removed from sale.
Also please note rule C24: "Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE."
Thank you for your time.
Randall Kerr
SOR Auctioneer
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Here! Here Randall!
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11:36:39am
Noticed this in the offerings of at least two contributors over the last few months...rounded and clipped corners and pulled perforations.Very obvious in their scans;no excuse for this just blatant carelessness.Reflects very poorly on the site and the other presenters who are trying to follow the rules.Surely not too much to ask to be a good corporate citizen of the site and just follow the rules!!!
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I think we have to be a little careful when enforcing strictly to the rules. It can be quite subjective and I do realize this is referring to approvals rather than auctions where 'damage' can be more easily noted by the seller. For fun, let's do a little test on sellable or not.
Which of these are acceptable?
1. Penny black with 3 margins with one side cut into?
2. 1892 British South Africa Company £10 with a rounded corner?
3. 1913 Union of South Africa £1 with telegraph ink cancel and punched hole cancel?
I'm a great believer in space fillers for expensive stamps knowing I'm unlikely to ever buy an unmounted mint copy. Then again I collect stamps as a compulsion rather than as an investment which could affect my judgement. 
I use these examples as they are stamps I've bid for, if not always won, in the past. (By the way if anyone has that damaged South African £1, I will pay $20 for it.
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08:09:28am
As long as the damage is visible I'm not complaining. We can see a pulled perf or a rounded corner without the seller mentioning it, even though he/she really should. I don't like overlapping stamps, blurry images or tiny images where the damage can't be seen. All rips and thins should be mentioned as well. Also probably if there is paper on the back, it doesn't bother me but it does bother some people. It's possible that the paper is covering damage. Some people also don't like writing on the back and that should be mentioned. In other words if I can easily see the damage I won't get upset if no mention is made, hidden damage is different. I'm assuming most of look at an item before we buy it!!
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"No damaged stamps may be sold in the approvals."
No damaged stamps should be posted regardless of value.
This is a recurring problem that requires action, if you don't abide
by the rules your book will be removed, period.
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03:00:24pm
DannyS: Any of those damaged items would be acceptable but I am highly doubtful they would ever appear in an approval book.There is no comparison between the damaged items you suggested and the common stamps worth 5 cents with clipped corners that appear in some approval booklets.
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All well and good but before we go and pull someones book(s) there should be some definition of “damaged”. Take Book 24937 page 1 for example. This comes from a member who believes no damaged stamps should be allowed regardless of value and that books that do not comply should be removed.
Put on your moderator hat and tell me which of the following stamps are damaged. I am not saying these stamps are damaged - these are just my observations of things that some collectors might classify as damaged.
#2 short perfs and round corner at UL
#3 Pulled perf at top edge, short perf @RH side top, bent perf along lower edge
#4 Stain @top, pulled perf along RH edge @top
#10 Multiple short/missing perfs along RH edge
#11 Arguable short perf along bottom edge
I suggest we need to define damage and we need to be fair and consistent. Examples:
Many fancy cancels lose little or no value when minor defects are present, the same with postal history. Do we allow FDC’s to be sold if there is any gum bleed onto the front of the cover. Do we allow side opening trims on 19th century covers, soiling, opening tears. How about split seams on stampless covers?
Not trying to be a pain here but I would like to know before I spend a lot of time working up material. Also note that these all sold. One of the most successful approval dealers on here has sold over 50,000 lots to members in 10 months, and yet due to the type of material he offers a percentage of his material has defects. His sell through percentages average on the high side. If members are buying (a lot) of material from him why would you deprive us of that option?
I think that perhaps we need to spend a bit of time thinking about whether we want a club that allows for open dialogue or whether we want to be ruled over … just talking points.
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Great job! and point taken.
The book has been deleted.
Hope that everybody follows suit.
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In any society rules are a good thing. Where things can go bad is in the application of the rules. With maturity hopefully societies can apply rules with some flexibility. Of course it there will be times where applying or not applying rules will cause arguments. Again the maturity that comes with age should get us through such times without too much 'damage'. I suspect we have plenty of age among the members on this site to allow us to show that maturity.
As someone pointed out on the examples I gave, these would be acceptable, although unlikely to show up in our approval books, but they do break the rules. Myself, if I saw a $5 cat. value stamp I wanted with some slight damage in a book for 5 or 10 cents I would be tempted. Maybe it's best to look at the rule on damage as guideline rather than set in stone. Ask why the rule was made. Was it to defend members from being sold a damaged stamp as a perfect copy thereby cheating the buyer? I suspect it was. If that is not what is happening, then it's time for that flexibility in the rule application. I apologise to those having to moderate the approval books where including flexibility in decision making adds to the workload. Maybe using the offer price is an initial easy way of drawing a line. If the stamp is offered at 10 cents or less then maybe it's not really worth ruling it out.
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For me the biggest problem is that where damaged stamps are for sale, the damage is not always being brought to the prospective buyers attention. The missing perfs, scuffs, tears, missing bits are not obvious every time, especially when you are scanning a page of 30+ items, the image sometimes has to be copied then enlarged in a separate program.
Apart from the rules already mentioned this also comes into play.
"C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot."
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As mentioned in anther post, my thoughts on approval books.
I have looked at a lot of books lately, those that pertain to the countries in my interests.
Often i get no further than the first page because of the random (dis)order of the stamps. Come on folks would you really patronise a store that jumbled up the various departments. Fruit next to meat with cereals and toiletries mixed in with the dairy and household.
Today I looked at a Germany book, some semblance of order but with Bundes, DDR and Berlin all mixed on the same page, some early some modern, is it really so difficult to spend a little time on putting items in catalogue order within price.
Other books have just a jumble of items, duplicated over various pages. Some books do not distinguish between mint, mint hinged, used or those that look mint but could be used without a visible postmark.
If you have a lot of stamps 30-40 on a scan the image has to be small, maybe use a couple of extra pages and less stamps on a page, or even spread the stamps over an additional book.
These are reasons why less stamps are being sold, look at the successful sellers, Brechinite is one, a pleasure to view a book.
I am not going to waste my time with half a dozen albums open on a desk trying to flip from one to the other to see if I need a stamp.
I want to buy stamps but you need to present them in a way that gets my interest, and haphazard does not work.
Please sellers take a look at your books, before you post them, ask yourself would I want to wade through this mess to possibly find a needed stamp.
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04:34:03pm
Vic, I agree with every thing you say, but whenever I say it I get crapped on. I'm sure the same will happen to you, so be ready!!!
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Joe, I'm immune to being crapped upon, just like fertilizer it helps us grow. It's the sellers who are missing out, and not just my money.
On the occasions when I put a book up, I sort the stamps into the catalogue facing the appropriate page, then arrange them in order onto varios for scanning. If there are stamps over a dollar or two the they get left in the book until they are put on a page together. If there is set then treated likewise.
When buying I don't need to see catalogue numbers, although they are helpful in cases where watermarks and perfs separate identical stamps. Just some order that means I only need one album open at a time.
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05:06:44pm
I don't really need the catalog numbers either but there is nothing worse than looking at a book on a country you collect that has no order what-so-ever. I find myself going back and forth in my album looking for particular stamps. It's especially bad for the countries I collect in "Big Blue" since there are 3 albums to look through. And if the book is a mishmash of several countries all mixed together in no order at all I usually give it up, even though I occasionally recognize the odd stamp or two that I want. Some books are a pleasure to look through but many are a disaster. I'm about to be crapped on as well, hopefully it'll make me grow!!
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Joe, the talk of growing brought this Dylan lyric to miind.
Well, my telephone rang it would not stop
It's President Kennedy callin' me up
He said, "My friend, Bob, what do we need to make the country grow"?
I said, "My friend, John, "Brigitte Bardot
Anita Ekberg
Sophia Loren"
Country'll grow
Now I have an ear worm.
Is madness catching? Better run my antivirus program quick.
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Most Approval books as of late are totally disorganized. I am distressed because it is something we could remedy.
Chief culprit: my personal opinion is well known. Worldwide (most), and lack of applying the rules, and in particular, as copied from our rules:
C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and be in the chosen approval book category. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.
C20. Each item must be identified by number. The number must be positioned so that it is clearly visible and does not overlap any other item. Numbers should preferably be located on the left side of or directly underneath the item to which it relates.
C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page.
C22. Stamps with defects must be identified by entering the word "Damaged" in the description. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books.
C23. The Auctioneer may grant a waiver for approval books when a limited selection makes the minimum item requirement rule unreasonable. Sellers must contact the Auctioneer to request the waiver, and a waiver must be granted, before the approval book is posted.
C24. Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure without prior notice.
"Often i get no further than the first page because of the random (dis)order of the stamps. Come on folks would you really patronise a store that jumbled up the various departments. "
As others have said it, one page is enough to decide if I should look further or not. After a few from one seller, you are not going to get me back even to check one page.
And as a general comment: My purchases are down 75-80% in volume and 90% in value since mid year.
rrr...
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Thanks for the compliment.
However I must point out that some of my books are not well laid out.
It all boils down to what one has and how one finds the stamps whether they come out of a well laid out stockbook or a mixed up envelope/tin/box. Whether the country puts the date of issue on the stamp or not. Even with the date on each stamp the time it takes to sort into the year and then to put them in order to sell at 9 cents each or less is prohibitive.
You may sell 35% of a book in the first 2 days then never sell another item so a book of 100 stamps at 9 cents earns you $3.15 for several hours "work". (Never mind the cost of the stamps themselves).
I am currently trying to sort out a bag of French stamps from 1923 to 2010 and have already spent 7 hours sorting some of them in order into 5 large stockbooks with many hours still to go. By the time I make up Approval books with these stamps many, many, many hours will have been consumed .
If a stockbook is well laid out then the stamps are a lot easier to put into an Approval Book but they still have to be identified, valued and a price placed onto them. Some buyers say they do not want catalogue nos, others do, a seller has no option but to put the cat no on each stamp/set. It all takes time time time.
Then there is the time taken to extract the bought stamps from the Book when they are sold, pack them, post them, all for $3.15 ?
There are currently 550 approx Books listed at the moment if every Book has to meet all the expectations of every buyer you would be lucky to have 100 Books listed.
I try my best but there are times I say "stuff this for a game of soldiers", I would be better watching paint dry.
This is a club and every members' expertise is different, their intelligence levels are different and their education levels are different, never mind their possible health difficulties, we are a club, we are not Sotheby's. Sellers will never please all the folkies all of the time. We know that why can't some buyers recognise that?
No seller is forcing you to buy from them, no seller is forcing you to look at their books, you have the right to pick and choose what you buy and from whom, if you don't like the look move onto the next one.
End of rant. Pass the vodka!
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OK
If the Approvals are such a disaster and nobody buys from because they are such a disaster then answer me this?
July Sales of Approvals $4300, August Sales of Approvals $3300
July Sales of Auctions $4900, August Sales of Auctions $4400
Shouldn't Approval sales be peanuts rather than what they are.
Perception is a terrible way to look at things.
I know why the Approvals are that high compared to the Auctions. Do you?
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"C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page."
There is a problem with this rule. A common cancel might catalog a quarter, a red or green cancel might catalog $50 or more. Same with fancy cancels, scarce pre-cancels, color shades, etc.
"C22. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books."
So it is not permissible to allow an SOR member to purchase a high value defective stamp to help them fill an expensive void in their collection? If a collector is happy to get a straightedge or perhaps a pulled perf or two on a $100 stamp for $5 or $10 on SOR he has to pay the going rate for FVF of $40, give or take? Ebay and Hip are full of them.
"C24. Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure without prior notice."
There is that zero tolerance again.
I am rapidly beginning to have zero tolerance for unenforceable rules that make no sense and are subject to the whimsies of one person.
I am not threatening to quit - I will still make purchases even as it becomes more difficult to find worthwhile stamps. But I have no interest in making approval books under the current rules and may elect the $12 option (plus contribution). Someone should review the rules at some point in time if the club is going to grow - it is not about buying and selling - it is an incredible resource for those who want to learn about stamps - but with all the other decent similar sites out there that are free it is a hard sell = I find myself turning to other sites when I have a question -
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I'm beginning to think that, maybe I should be listing less on SOR and more on Hip Stamps.
I am very happy with my SOR sales since I started last November.
Listing on SOR is my therapy time, since I'm really not making any large amounts money.
Paul
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Irrespective of the "rules", if sellers wish to have a greater number of purchases from books or auctions then some sort of organisation is warranted. As I have said previously, this is your shop window, dress it up rather than have a mess that turns buyers off at the first page. Bear in mind that buyers will then not bother to look at your other books.
Ian, yes it is a lot of work to put stamps in order but if it results in better or more sales I consider it worth the effort, after all the sales platforms were for disposing of unwanted stamps or duplicates to other collectors.
Maybe a country packet would appeal to some buyers, those with the time and will to sort through a hundred or more to find a few to fill spaces. They can then packet them back up to resell or gift to their local club or post them to the Holocaust stamp project.
As far as moderators are concerned they would need to be working full time just to look at every book and stamp posted and as volunteers that is just not on. It is up to us as sellers /buyers to police ourselves, we know the rules, and should be able to follow them without reminders from management.
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I will comment on this as being the author of the rules and former auctioneer:
""C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page."
There is a problem with this rule. A common cancel might catalog a quarter, a red or green cancel might catalog $50 or more. Same with fancy cancels, scarce pre-cancels, color shades, etc.
"
Per the rules, ask for a waiver to post a specialty item book, or put those items up in the auction.
""C22. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books.""
The idea behind and desired result of the $$$ books was to provide a quality product as members were requesting. Defective higher valued stamps can go in the other approval books, or in the auctions without problem. Also, per the rules, one can always ask for a waiver.
""C24. Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure without prior notice."
There is that zero tolerance again.
"
It may seem like that, but the auctioneers try to work over and over and over again with non-compliant sellers to try to get them to understand how to put together a proper approval book. Unfortunately, after several attempts working with an unwilling seller, the books of that seller may get closed without notice, but more than likely, the books are closed, and the seller is notified due to other actions taken.
The rules were made to try to make a good, presentable sales platform. A good, well presented sales platform will attract new members (isn't that what everyone wants?). Without rules, we would have lazy sellers who just toss anything up in any manner they want, and everyone should know that would happen.
The rules in the approvals and auctions also provide slack to sellers, such as the waivers for approval books, and interaction regarding buyers and sellers in the auctions to take variances from the rules as needed.
All of this I have stated many times over the years. Read the rules in their entirety, and not just one or two items. The rules are fluid, and variances are freely permitted. There is very little zero tolerances in the sales platforms rules. Fraudulent activity is probably the only one.
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Michael,
Thank you for taking the time to explain the intent and the work arounds for the rules. I spent 10 years in private sector reviewing plans and specs for large scale commercial building projects where a single word or misplaced comma can result in catastrophic losses. And then close to 20 years working for the Federal government in a similar capacity with the SBA so I tend to be a bit of a contrarian (that is a polite word for it, many other less flattering names come to mind - I understand that).
I obviously have no problem with the intent of the rules, or using the work arounds. My fear is always that the next person to take the reigns may choose to interpret them literally. For me this is a hobby and as I stated, I will continue to support the club regardless of my comfort level in selling.
You have a gift of being able to explain things with logic - much appreciated. I will try putting another book together after I retire the last one - definitely not worth it from as time spent standpoint but I was happy with the results.
Thanks again.
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"Ian, yes it is a lot of work to put stamps in order but if it results in better or more sales I consider it worth the effort, after all the sales platforms were for disposing of unwanted stamps or duplicates to other collectors. "
The crux of the matter is in the words "better or more sales I consider it worth the effort"
In some cases I do not consider it worth the effort.
I asked the question in a previous post "I know why the Approvals are that high compared to the Auctions. Do you?"
The answer is quite simple and in one word PRICE.
All the testing I have done over the years on this site leads to one conclusion. In the Auctions and Approvals you will not sell a single item here unless the price is deemed to be "right" by the individual buyer. We all know that "price" is each individuals own perception.
In the past I have put items in the auction at say 20% of catalogue and they did not sell. I have then reduced them to 10% of catalogue and they did not sell. I have then put them in the Approvals and they have sold at 10% of catalogue. The perception is that items in the Approvals are cheaper than the Auctions.
Putting items in "order" in the Approvals is difficult at times. If you have four items from a set of five the selling price for each of the four is different so in the approvals the items would appear on different sheets. Your sheet can have say 12 items at the same price but from X different sets. By definition the book cannot be in "order".
We have a unique Approvals system that appears to work for the majority.
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Ian
Approvals were conceived with in mind providing an easy sales platform for disposing of lower valued stamps. It works well, as the numbers show, although it did not succeed in removing theses low value stamps from auctions. To be honest, in Approvals, I don't think it makes much of a difference, at the low end, if you list at 3 c or at 5c or even at 10c. But that is my opinion, not a known fact.
Given that collectors work in specific area, a focused book grouping a lot of lower value stamps are best suited to help fill a lot of empty spaces. A random mix of offerings is best suited for the Auction platform.
Approvals also provide an inexpensive way to start a new collection area. This is why I am so surprised to see books with no focus and no organisation do as well as they do. I can see value for topical collectors, but collectors like me who focus on a country at a time...
This is different from Auctions where better stamps are expected, and pricing may be more critical as you compete with commercial sites as well. Our platform allows sorting by country or topic, and works MUCH better than ebay or Hipstamp or Delcampe, if only because it is less overwhelming, and new material appears daily.
Still folks sell low end (price wise) stamps on our Auctions. I think there is a strange split between those who buy or sell on only one platform as opposed to both. They were intended to be complementary. One is often stuck in one's old ways.
As I said it elsewhere, putting an Approval book in order is a courtesy from the seller to the collectors wanting to buy. It is not required by our rules although some level of organizing is required. For me it is a matter of pride, which is why I organize and add cat numbers. I noted that this takes very little extra time than just putting a book together with little or no organization. Minutes, not hours.
If I was just looking at the bottom line and every cent counted, it may be thought as absurd. But the premise here is that collectors selling to collectors in a Club setting would have similar values. No one equates the time one spends on ones own collection to dollar and cents.
rrr...
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Ralph,
I would also suggest that, as long as the seller is cataloging the items, they could prepare a google sheet index. The buyers could sort the index in catalog order to overcome the problem of arising from catalog contiguous stamps being separated as a result of different prices. The availability of such an index would also enable the buyer to construct a cross reference with their want list.
Harry
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rrraphy,
Yes in an ideal world everything should be lined up like pretty nice soldiers.
We do not live in an ideal world.
There you go again using the word "collector" assuming that everybody works in a particular way. We do not all work that way. Some Do Some Don't (reminds me of a song)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY3pkagV ...
Harry,
You totally lost me and a lot of other members when you mentioned "google sheet index". We sellers have enough to contend with thank you very much.
Please don't describe it to me I've enough running through my brain.
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Ian,
I know you asked me not to describe it, but for the benefit of those who are interested, Google sheets is a service whereby anyone with a google account can give access to a spreadsheet by means of a link. Anyone with the link can access the spreadsheet. Here is an example.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1 ...
Harry
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Harry,
The one problem with Google Sheets is that not everyone has the same software.
eg Not everybody can access Excel.
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What about
https://www.wps.com/
Free basic software.
Mod. Link active
(Modified by Moderator on 2022-09-21 05:42:10)
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Harry: Just so as not to overcomplicate requirements or suggestions to sellers like Ian ( who incidentally does a better job than many others, even in his worldwide books), the option of adding cat numbers should be ignored, as many catalog systems would just confuse the issue.
It is also easier to write in a cat number if you use the SOR forms for Approvals than the stock sheets many seem to favor. I noticed that sellers who use the Approval forms are more likely to write in the cat number, the years, or both.
The added work of adding a cat number for stamps selling at less than 10c should be seen as just as a courtesy gift from the seller. Add to that, there are many catalog systems, so Years may work better than Cat number for an International audience.
In all cases, a well organized book, in some sort of chronological order works just as well, for many. I doubt that too many sellers will bother to id perforation, watermarks etc..at these prices.
That being said, I will continue to put both years and cat numbers in chronologically ordered books. I have not issued new books for a while, but I may resume before year end, sticking to my vision of what Approval Books should be. As an observer, I am getting a good idea of what sells and does not sell and at what price, and it seems to have little to do with what I collect, with just a handful here with similar focus!
rrr..
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"It is also easier to write in a cat number if you use the SOR forms for Approvals than the stock sheets many seem to favor. "
The drawback to using the Approval Sheets is that the use of stamp hinges and the prospect of damage to the stamp when you remove the hinge for dispatch.
If you do not remove the hinge and cram 100 stamps into an envelope complete with all the hinges and there is dampness during posting just think of the number of stuck together stamps the buyer would receive!
yugh!!
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WARNING
DO NOT DOWNLOAD the wps software above if you use Adobe Acrobat for your pdfs as the wps system affects your use of Adobe Acrobat.
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That's odd - I've been using WPS and Adobe for a couple of years now. Hipstamp uses it as their word processing program. Bad link maybe?
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everything I had using Adobe (including all volumes of Scott 2017) were overriden by wps.
The volumes would not open.
I had to repair Adobe then re-apply that Adobe was my default.
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I have been online since the early 90s and have NEVER downloaded a Microsoft update - and have NEVER had a virus except once, and it arrived attached to an Adobe Acrobat document. From that time on, Acrobat Reader was banned in this house
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I might also add I think Harrys idea of a Google Docs index is outstanding. He has created the perfect indexing system that allows you to do a search rather than read the index to look for a stamp. The + for mint and the ++ for never hinged is beautiful. I will be adopting this way of indexing if the time comes that I get back into single country books. It also for me anyway, gives me a head start on moving unsold stamps to another platform by doing some tweaking. I must have 50 books to break down and I just can't seem to find the time to do it.
Greg
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"eg Not everybody can access Excel"
Ian,
Google sheets does not require Excel. If you have Excel (or any of the free spreadsheet programs which can save spreadsheets in the Excel format), you can import the file to Google sheets; however, you can also use a simple text editor such as notepad to create a tab or comma separated file for import.
Harry
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Why would a seller want to use a program that entails even more work, if you are going to have to input all the data then why not write it on a sheet of paper and scan it as the first page.
The fact that it is cloud based, not on your computer means you need a connection to even view or edit the details. It is not like the list will be amended every time a stamp is purchased. The buyer would still need to write down which pages and items they wish to view, so why not just go through the book.
Sorry, do not see it improving anything. More work for the seller, no real time benefit for the buyer.
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As I am not completely sure how I will work this when I switch to a google spreadsheet I cannot say on the front end how much more time it will take than what I currently do now. This will be in addition to my first page index, as I need to create that anyway to build the book. However, if you are a seller who sells elsewhere, what are you doing with the stamps in the closed books? For me, the nickel and dime stuff gets tossed into a bankers box never to probably be seen again. They used to go to penny auctions until out of 240 of them over a 6 week period, less than 10% of them sold for even a penny. No point in continuing that. So if I were using a spread sheet I could actually almost set it up properly to upload to another site just by changing the column names and cropping the images, which I would have to do anyway. I would also add a price to the stamp. I would need to do that anyway, multiplying it for the next site. I would certainly need to perfect the back end closed books process before I would begin to use a spreadsheet for an index though. I'd have to do some excel formula research first. Single country books are on hold for the rest of the year at this point though. I have to work on what happens to the unsold in my world wide books regarding editing the spreadsheet that served as an index.
For a buyer I guess its all about whether you use catalog numbers or not. If I am looking for a specific stamp for a country, I will not browse a book in the hope that it is there, when I can go to somewhere else and type a search into the site and find many copies of the same stamp for sale. If I found an SOR book with a searchable index, I certainly would use it. A link to the Google Drive doc is great, though it would be even better if somehow links could be embedded on the description page of the book
Greg
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Greg,
Your unsold approval items could be utilised thus:-
a) Thrown into envelopes and/or old stockbooks and/or tins or small boxes put in a larger box and placed with your local auction house. A couple of weeks back I gave 6 Bankers boxes of this type to my local auction house and they sold for £165. Also in these boxes were hand-written FDC,s bundleware, kiloware etc etc..
b) Fill a stocksheet with them and list them in the auction here.
c) Mix them all up and list them as off paper kiloware here.
d) Reorganise them into new Approval Books at the original price. (It has worked for me in the past.)
e) Reorganise them into new Approval Books at a reduced price. (It has worked for me in the past)
f) Hold a Big Event like I did. (Better held in January or summer when its quiet). I prepared a thousand auction lots all at 10% of catalogue (I did this using several bulk uploads). I sold 50% during the event and another 20% after the event.
I hope I have given you some ideas.
PS Of course you could always send them to Dave at the Holocaust Project.
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"Sorry, do not see it improving anything. More work for the seller, no real time benefit for the buyer."
I guess I am wasting my time. Anything I do to try to make things easier for the buyer seems to be unappreciated. Is there even any point in providing catalog numbers?
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"Is there even any point in providing catalog numbers?"
In some cases yes.
Yes in the Special Large Books and High Value Books.
In the 100 stamps plus Books not so much.
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I'm starting to think that sellers who post approval books in no particular order have the right idea. Why bother if buyers don't care? Personally, I don't think I care to waste my time assembling any more approval books.
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Harry
I kinda agree with you. Every time I have pushed to have tighter rules (we had once) and better enforcement, it was turned down as it "would discourage some members from posting" would be too exclusive, and would not be helpful to beginners. And the rules get more and more relaxed or not enforced, leaving a product that sells, and it does....but is disappointing to me.
I always suspected that collectors needed a simple way of filling a lot of min value spots in their albums, but I am still stunned by the volume of stamps going through. Tim could give us stats, it would be most informative, but I suspect half a million stamp a year at less than 10c each.
I must say in all fairness that there is another point of view for what this club should be, and it is ok. I have reconciled somewhat to trying to be more inclusive at the cost of higher standards. But some things are slipping by that should not be acceptable to anyone.
I will still put cat #s and years because I care, and I see it as a hobby and not a business, but I am not surprised you feel as you do, and I would not be surprised if others do too.
I have often wondered if a sortable index with year or cat number would be an asset. Things sell so fast, when they sell, that any index would be immediately obsolete, unless you could couple the pages address (book #, page #, item #) to the stamp info ( year, cat#, and what catalog), and have it machine update automatically in the sortable index, and that is not something I would wish for Tim!
rrr...
Mind you, for topical collectors the books, even in total disarray, are still extremely handy.
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" Tim could give us stats, it would be most informative, but I suspect half a million stamp a year at less than 10c each."
The stats are available if you know where to look. ie The reports section of Auction, sub-section Seller, sub-section Reports.
OK you'll need a calculator and some time but they are there.
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Interesting ideas Ian but.....
"a) Thrown into envelopes and/or old stockbooks and/or tins or small boxes put in a larger box and placed with your local auction house. "
No such animal anywhere near Cornwall PA
"b) Fill a stocksheet with them and list them in the auction here.
"
Interesting idea. I just timed it. To take 30 stamps at random, and put them in a stock sheet, taking said stamps from a pile that for the most part Ralph would call junk, minimum CV stamps took 3 minutes. To check the condition however because the condition police are out there, for every stamp, took 5 1/2 minutes. Add to that the time to tke from the old stock sheets, and these would be only the minimum or 30 cent value stamps would probably take a total of 10 minutes or 6 sheets in an hour to sell for how much/ Maybe 50 cents. I tried this at auction early in the year offering cards at $1 and had one or two takers, which is why I stopped doing that experiment.
"c) Mix them all up and list them as off paper kiloware here"
Possibly could but would anyone buy them? I didn't get all that many takers on my mish mash lots which probably were at 5% catalog, if that.
"d) Reorganise them into new Approval Books
"
Been doing that from the very beginning. Used to do quite well when I did that, but we had more buyers. As I break down the old books I have been putting aside those I can add to to make a complete book again. I'll try single country books again in January for a month and see if the buying climate has changed.
"e) Reorganise them into new Approval Books at a reduced price. And F as well"
No, I truly believe that once you start to do that, all the buyers immediately drop back and wait for sales. It works for some here I know, but with all the increase in fees as well as what I call a Federal Income Tax of at least 12% on sellers, it's just not worth it to sell for 5-10% CV. I cannot compete with those that sell at that level.
"PS Of course you could always send them to Dave at the Holocaust Project."
I could, but that would mean sending a packet to Canada and someone then may add up the postage that I put on it. I'll leave it at that.
Harry to me worldwide books are the way to go these days. I have a book still active from January that is a worldwide book. I never expected that and have switched to doing them that way now with a spreadsheet index that can be modified quite easily to upload elsewhere when the book closes.
Greg
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Greg,
It was a few ideas but here is the final one.
With inflation, the price of heating going up.
Burn them and keep warm.
I know, you dont have an open fire or log burner!!
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We used to, but since we moved to a retirement community - no. They don't even let the residents have a gas range, only electric. There is also an unenforced rule of no candles, but we burn them at dinner on Sundays.
As an aside, my wife gets Britbox (we haven't seen any US TV except for the old shows in decades) and has been watching Escape to The Country. It appears that many of the older homes have wood stoves or pellet stoves. Is heating that expensive? The possible home owners are always pleased to find these stoves in the houses they look at
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Greg,
You'll find that the wood stoves are more for show than actually heating the house. Most houses have natural gas boilers or some form of electric heating.
Natural gas was quite cheap until April this year when the wholesale market price for natural gas went up by 600% thanks to Putins invasion of Ukraine.
The majority of Europe got their gas from Russia and because they sanctioned Russia they were scrabbling around the world for alternative suppliers therefore the price rocketed.
The government here is going to subsidise households for two years. The rate of subsidy will mean we will only be paying double of what we were paying this time last year.
Personally it will not affect us this year as I have a fixed price contract until September next year but goodness knows what price I'll have to pay after the contract ends.
We also have an open fire that we burn coal.
Last year we were paying £36 for 100 Kilos, last week it had risen to £54. ( see this net zero climate change nonsense its a costly pain in the neck)
In fact my wife has just lit the fire so while typing this I am toasting my tootsies. Ah bliss!
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One of the reason I think I will see out the rest of my days in the tropics is that when the nighttime temperature falls below 20C (68F) we consider that is cold, but it only happens a couple of time a year. I will put up with the floods and the cost of air conditioning for this.
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No, we never could see ourselves moving south. We did actually, to south central PA (you can look up Cornwall PA on a map to see where we are) having come from Stroudsburg about 100 miles NE of here. Winter is not as severe as it is somewhat flat farmland around here compared to what the Poconos call mountains and I call high hills. Winters for the past 3 years have not dropped often below 20 degrees F. We have central air now which makes the summers (which are a bit warmer due to flatness) a little more enjoyable for a person (me) who is not happy when it is warmer than 72. We compromised on the indoor temperature of 67 in the summer 70 in the winter, but I do keep the bedroom door shut so I can open the window a bit in the winter and not chill the entire house. No real fireplace for us, just a dumb gas fake fireplace which actually does supply some heat. Flip the switch and instant fire. Loved our old fireplace. Nothing quite like the warmth of a fire! Actually cooked on it once when Hurricane Sandy took our power out. No power, no electric range. So I made soup in a pot over the open fire. Worked out great.
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"I'm beginning to think that, maybe I should be listing less on SOR and more on Hip Stamps."
God Forbid!
Paul, keep posting those disorganized books, which I like the best!
To me it is fun, because I do not know what I will find on the next page and in your case quality is where it has to be - always high and you post enough nuggets at 5, 10, 15 cents/piece to make it a great sport. The covers, aerograms and cards were awesome too. I kept reading those letters and delving into the private lives of people in Guyana , India.... some 40-50 years ago.
Hip Stamps? I keep going back looking but for the past two years have not been able to place a single order, so a waste of time to me.
I keep my spare stamps on stockbook pages or in glassines organized by country. This way I can avoid a WW book, and if not enough stamps are available for a complete approval book, I can have one for a continent - Africa, South America, etc.
Organizing stamps helps in finding out those that are unlikely to sell. No point listing something that will not sell - if a seller can figure out those stamps, a lot of time and effort will be saved.
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To all approval book sellers -
I am seeing quite a few books with damaged stamps here and there as of late;
PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF RULE C8b listed in the Selling Rules which states, "...NO DAMAGED STAMPS MAY BE SOLD IN THE APPROVALS."
One? Maybe 2? I can overlook it as unintentional.
But if NUMEROUS damaged stamps are found, the offending book WILL be removed from sale.
Also please note rule C24: "Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE."
Thank you for your time.
Randall Kerr
SOR Auctioneer
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11:36:39am
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Noticed this in the offerings of at least two contributors over the last few months...rounded and clipped corners and pulled perforations.Very obvious in their scans;no excuse for this just blatant carelessness.Reflects very poorly on the site and the other presenters who are trying to follow the rules.Surely not too much to ask to be a good corporate citizen of the site and just follow the rules!!!
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
I think we have to be a little careful when enforcing strictly to the rules. It can be quite subjective and I do realize this is referring to approvals rather than auctions where 'damage' can be more easily noted by the seller. For fun, let's do a little test on sellable or not.
Which of these are acceptable?
1. Penny black with 3 margins with one side cut into?
2. 1892 British South Africa Company £10 with a rounded corner?
3. 1913 Union of South Africa £1 with telegraph ink cancel and punched hole cancel?
I'm a great believer in space fillers for expensive stamps knowing I'm unlikely to ever buy an unmounted mint copy. Then again I collect stamps as a compulsion rather than as an investment which could affect my judgement.
I use these examples as they are stamps I've bid for, if not always won, in the past. (By the way if anyone has that damaged South African £1, I will pay $20 for it.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Sep 2022
08:09:28am
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
As long as the damage is visible I'm not complaining. We can see a pulled perf or a rounded corner without the seller mentioning it, even though he/she really should. I don't like overlapping stamps, blurry images or tiny images where the damage can't be seen. All rips and thins should be mentioned as well. Also probably if there is paper on the back, it doesn't bother me but it does bother some people. It's possible that the paper is covering damage. Some people also don't like writing on the back and that should be mentioned. In other words if I can easily see the damage I won't get upset if no mention is made, hidden damage is different. I'm assuming most of look at an item before we buy it!!
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
"No damaged stamps may be sold in the approvals."
No damaged stamps should be posted regardless of value.
This is a recurring problem that requires action, if you don't abide
by the rules your book will be removed, period.
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03:00:24pm
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
DannyS: Any of those damaged items would be acceptable but I am highly doubtful they would ever appear in an approval book.There is no comparison between the damaged items you suggested and the common stamps worth 5 cents with clipped corners that appear in some approval booklets.
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03:50:44pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
All well and good but before we go and pull someones book(s) there should be some definition of “damaged”. Take Book 24937 page 1 for example. This comes from a member who believes no damaged stamps should be allowed regardless of value and that books that do not comply should be removed.
Put on your moderator hat and tell me which of the following stamps are damaged. I am not saying these stamps are damaged - these are just my observations of things that some collectors might classify as damaged.
#2 short perfs and round corner at UL
#3 Pulled perf at top edge, short perf @RH side top, bent perf along lower edge
#4 Stain @top, pulled perf along RH edge @top
#10 Multiple short/missing perfs along RH edge
#11 Arguable short perf along bottom edge
I suggest we need to define damage and we need to be fair and consistent. Examples:
Many fancy cancels lose little or no value when minor defects are present, the same with postal history. Do we allow FDC’s to be sold if there is any gum bleed onto the front of the cover. Do we allow side opening trims on 19th century covers, soiling, opening tears. How about split seams on stampless covers?
Not trying to be a pain here but I would like to know before I spend a lot of time working up material. Also note that these all sold. One of the most successful approval dealers on here has sold over 50,000 lots to members in 10 months, and yet due to the type of material he offers a percentage of his material has defects. His sell through percentages average on the high side. If members are buying (a lot) of material from him why would you deprive us of that option?
I think that perhaps we need to spend a bit of time thinking about whether we want a club that allows for open dialogue or whether we want to be ruled over … just talking points.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Great job! and point taken.
The book has been deleted.
Hope that everybody follows suit.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
In any society rules are a good thing. Where things can go bad is in the application of the rules. With maturity hopefully societies can apply rules with some flexibility. Of course it there will be times where applying or not applying rules will cause arguments. Again the maturity that comes with age should get us through such times without too much 'damage'. I suspect we have plenty of age among the members on this site to allow us to show that maturity.
As someone pointed out on the examples I gave, these would be acceptable, although unlikely to show up in our approval books, but they do break the rules. Myself, if I saw a $5 cat. value stamp I wanted with some slight damage in a book for 5 or 10 cents I would be tempted. Maybe it's best to look at the rule on damage as guideline rather than set in stone. Ask why the rule was made. Was it to defend members from being sold a damaged stamp as a perfect copy thereby cheating the buyer? I suspect it was. If that is not what is happening, then it's time for that flexibility in the rule application. I apologise to those having to moderate the approval books where including flexibility in decision making adds to the workload. Maybe using the offer price is an initial easy way of drawing a line. If the stamp is offered at 10 cents or less then maybe it's not really worth ruling it out.
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
For me the biggest problem is that where damaged stamps are for sale, the damage is not always being brought to the prospective buyers attention. The missing perfs, scuffs, tears, missing bits are not obvious every time, especially when you are scanning a page of 30+ items, the image sometimes has to be copied then enlarged in a separate program.
Apart from the rules already mentioned this also comes into play.
"C8a. Reliance on images alone to show defects is not permitted. All lots of single stamps and sets of stamps must include, at a minimum, descriptions of all defects. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. For large stamp mixtures and collections it is permissible to describe only the overall condition of the lot."
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
As mentioned in anther post, my thoughts on approval books.
I have looked at a lot of books lately, those that pertain to the countries in my interests.
Often i get no further than the first page because of the random (dis)order of the stamps. Come on folks would you really patronise a store that jumbled up the various departments. Fruit next to meat with cereals and toiletries mixed in with the dairy and household.
Today I looked at a Germany book, some semblance of order but with Bundes, DDR and Berlin all mixed on the same page, some early some modern, is it really so difficult to spend a little time on putting items in catalogue order within price.
Other books have just a jumble of items, duplicated over various pages. Some books do not distinguish between mint, mint hinged, used or those that look mint but could be used without a visible postmark.
If you have a lot of stamps 30-40 on a scan the image has to be small, maybe use a couple of extra pages and less stamps on a page, or even spread the stamps over an additional book.
These are reasons why less stamps are being sold, look at the successful sellers, Brechinite is one, a pleasure to view a book.
I am not going to waste my time with half a dozen albums open on a desk trying to flip from one to the other to see if I need a stamp.
I want to buy stamps but you need to present them in a way that gets my interest, and haphazard does not work.
Please sellers take a look at your books, before you post them, ask yourself would I want to wade through this mess to possibly find a needed stamp.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
19 Sep 2022
04:34:03pm
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Vic, I agree with every thing you say, but whenever I say it I get crapped on. I'm sure the same will happen to you, so be ready!!!
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Joe, I'm immune to being crapped upon, just like fertilizer it helps us grow. It's the sellers who are missing out, and not just my money.
On the occasions when I put a book up, I sort the stamps into the catalogue facing the appropriate page, then arrange them in order onto varios for scanning. If there are stamps over a dollar or two the they get left in the book until they are put on a page together. If there is set then treated likewise.
When buying I don't need to see catalogue numbers, although they are helpful in cases where watermarks and perfs separate identical stamps. Just some order that means I only need one album open at a time.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
19 Sep 2022
05:06:44pm
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
I don't really need the catalog numbers either but there is nothing worse than looking at a book on a country you collect that has no order what-so-ever. I find myself going back and forth in my album looking for particular stamps. It's especially bad for the countries I collect in "Big Blue" since there are 3 albums to look through. And if the book is a mishmash of several countries all mixed together in no order at all I usually give it up, even though I occasionally recognize the odd stamp or two that I want. Some books are a pleasure to look through but many are a disaster. I'm about to be crapped on as well, hopefully it'll make me grow!!
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Joe, the talk of growing brought this Dylan lyric to miind.
Well, my telephone rang it would not stop
It's President Kennedy callin' me up
He said, "My friend, Bob, what do we need to make the country grow"?
I said, "My friend, John, "Brigitte Bardot
Anita Ekberg
Sophia Loren"
Country'll grow
Now I have an ear worm.
Is madness catching? Better run my antivirus program quick.
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Most Approval books as of late are totally disorganized. I am distressed because it is something we could remedy.
Chief culprit: my personal opinion is well known. Worldwide (most), and lack of applying the rules, and in particular, as copied from our rules:
C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and be in the chosen approval book category. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.
C20. Each item must be identified by number. The number must be positioned so that it is clearly visible and does not overlap any other item. Numbers should preferably be located on the left side of or directly underneath the item to which it relates.
C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page.
C22. Stamps with defects must be identified by entering the word "Damaged" in the description. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books.
C23. The Auctioneer may grant a waiver for approval books when a limited selection makes the minimum item requirement rule unreasonable. Sellers must contact the Auctioneer to request the waiver, and a waiver must be granted, before the approval book is posted.
C24. Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure without prior notice.
"Often i get no further than the first page because of the random (dis)order of the stamps. Come on folks would you really patronise a store that jumbled up the various departments. "
As others have said it, one page is enough to decide if I should look further or not. After a few from one seller, you are not going to get me back even to check one page.
And as a general comment: My purchases are down 75-80% in volume and 90% in value since mid year.
rrr...
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08:34:12pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Thanks for the compliment.
However I must point out that some of my books are not well laid out.
It all boils down to what one has and how one finds the stamps whether they come out of a well laid out stockbook or a mixed up envelope/tin/box. Whether the country puts the date of issue on the stamp or not. Even with the date on each stamp the time it takes to sort into the year and then to put them in order to sell at 9 cents each or less is prohibitive.
You may sell 35% of a book in the first 2 days then never sell another item so a book of 100 stamps at 9 cents earns you $3.15 for several hours "work". (Never mind the cost of the stamps themselves).
I am currently trying to sort out a bag of French stamps from 1923 to 2010 and have already spent 7 hours sorting some of them in order into 5 large stockbooks with many hours still to go. By the time I make up Approval books with these stamps many, many, many hours will have been consumed .
If a stockbook is well laid out then the stamps are a lot easier to put into an Approval Book but they still have to be identified, valued and a price placed onto them. Some buyers say they do not want catalogue nos, others do, a seller has no option but to put the cat no on each stamp/set. It all takes time time time.
Then there is the time taken to extract the bought stamps from the Book when they are sold, pack them, post them, all for $3.15 ?
There are currently 550 approx Books listed at the moment if every Book has to meet all the expectations of every buyer you would be lucky to have 100 Books listed.
I try my best but there are times I say "stuff this for a game of soldiers", I would be better watching paint dry.
This is a club and every members' expertise is different, their intelligence levels are different and their education levels are different, never mind their possible health difficulties, we are a club, we are not Sotheby's. Sellers will never please all the folkies all of the time. We know that why can't some buyers recognise that?
No seller is forcing you to buy from them, no seller is forcing you to look at their books, you have the right to pick and choose what you buy and from whom, if you don't like the look move onto the next one.
End of rant. Pass the vodka!
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08:44:38pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
OK
If the Approvals are such a disaster and nobody buys from because they are such a disaster then answer me this?
July Sales of Approvals $4300, August Sales of Approvals $3300
July Sales of Auctions $4900, August Sales of Auctions $4400
Shouldn't Approval sales be peanuts rather than what they are.
Perception is a terrible way to look at things.
I know why the Approvals are that high compared to the Auctions. Do you?
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08:44:43pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
"C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page."
There is a problem with this rule. A common cancel might catalog a quarter, a red or green cancel might catalog $50 or more. Same with fancy cancels, scarce pre-cancels, color shades, etc.
"C22. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books."
So it is not permissible to allow an SOR member to purchase a high value defective stamp to help them fill an expensive void in their collection? If a collector is happy to get a straightedge or perhaps a pulled perf or two on a $100 stamp for $5 or $10 on SOR he has to pay the going rate for FVF of $40, give or take? Ebay and Hip are full of them.
"C24. Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure without prior notice."
There is that zero tolerance again.
I am rapidly beginning to have zero tolerance for unenforceable rules that make no sense and are subject to the whimsies of one person.
I am not threatening to quit - I will still make purchases even as it becomes more difficult to find worthwhile stamps. But I have no interest in making approval books under the current rules and may elect the $12 option (plus contribution). Someone should review the rules at some point in time if the club is going to grow - it is not about buying and selling - it is an incredible resource for those who want to learn about stamps - but with all the other decent similar sites out there that are free it is a hard sell = I find myself turning to other sites when I have a question -
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
I'm beginning to think that, maybe I should be listing less on SOR and more on Hip Stamps.
I am very happy with my SOR sales since I started last November.
Listing on SOR is my therapy time, since I'm really not making any large amounts money.
Paul
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Irrespective of the "rules", if sellers wish to have a greater number of purchases from books or auctions then some sort of organisation is warranted. As I have said previously, this is your shop window, dress it up rather than have a mess that turns buyers off at the first page. Bear in mind that buyers will then not bother to look at your other books.
Ian, yes it is a lot of work to put stamps in order but if it results in better or more sales I consider it worth the effort, after all the sales platforms were for disposing of unwanted stamps or duplicates to other collectors.
Maybe a country packet would appeal to some buyers, those with the time and will to sort through a hundred or more to find a few to fill spaces. They can then packet them back up to resell or gift to their local club or post them to the Holocaust stamp project.
As far as moderators are concerned they would need to be working full time just to look at every book and stamp posted and as volunteers that is just not on. It is up to us as sellers /buyers to police ourselves, we know the rules, and should be able to follow them without reminders from management.
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10:45:58pm
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
I will comment on this as being the author of the rules and former auctioneer:
""C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page."
There is a problem with this rule. A common cancel might catalog a quarter, a red or green cancel might catalog $50 or more. Same with fancy cancels, scarce pre-cancels, color shades, etc.
"
Per the rules, ask for a waiver to post a specialty item book, or put those items up in the auction.
""C22. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books.""
The idea behind and desired result of the $$$ books was to provide a quality product as members were requesting. Defective higher valued stamps can go in the other approval books, or in the auctions without problem. Also, per the rules, one can always ask for a waiver.
""C24. Approval books that are not compliant with the rules are subject to closure without prior notice."
There is that zero tolerance again.
"
It may seem like that, but the auctioneers try to work over and over and over again with non-compliant sellers to try to get them to understand how to put together a proper approval book. Unfortunately, after several attempts working with an unwilling seller, the books of that seller may get closed without notice, but more than likely, the books are closed, and the seller is notified due to other actions taken.
The rules were made to try to make a good, presentable sales platform. A good, well presented sales platform will attract new members (isn't that what everyone wants?). Without rules, we would have lazy sellers who just toss anything up in any manner they want, and everyone should know that would happen.
The rules in the approvals and auctions also provide slack to sellers, such as the waivers for approval books, and interaction regarding buyers and sellers in the auctions to take variances from the rules as needed.
All of this I have stated many times over the years. Read the rules in their entirety, and not just one or two items. The rules are fluid, and variances are freely permitted. There is very little zero tolerances in the sales platforms rules. Fraudulent activity is probably the only one.
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03:14:19am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Michael,
Thank you for taking the time to explain the intent and the work arounds for the rules. I spent 10 years in private sector reviewing plans and specs for large scale commercial building projects where a single word or misplaced comma can result in catastrophic losses. And then close to 20 years working for the Federal government in a similar capacity with the SBA so I tend to be a bit of a contrarian (that is a polite word for it, many other less flattering names come to mind - I understand that).
I obviously have no problem with the intent of the rules, or using the work arounds. My fear is always that the next person to take the reigns may choose to interpret them literally. For me this is a hobby and as I stated, I will continue to support the club regardless of my comfort level in selling.
You have a gift of being able to explain things with logic - much appreciated. I will try putting another book together after I retire the last one - definitely not worth it from as time spent standpoint but I was happy with the results.
Thanks again.
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07:50:12am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
"Ian, yes it is a lot of work to put stamps in order but if it results in better or more sales I consider it worth the effort, after all the sales platforms were for disposing of unwanted stamps or duplicates to other collectors. "
The crux of the matter is in the words "better or more sales I consider it worth the effort"
In some cases I do not consider it worth the effort.
I asked the question in a previous post "I know why the Approvals are that high compared to the Auctions. Do you?"
The answer is quite simple and in one word PRICE.
All the testing I have done over the years on this site leads to one conclusion. In the Auctions and Approvals you will not sell a single item here unless the price is deemed to be "right" by the individual buyer. We all know that "price" is each individuals own perception.
In the past I have put items in the auction at say 20% of catalogue and they did not sell. I have then reduced them to 10% of catalogue and they did not sell. I have then put them in the Approvals and they have sold at 10% of catalogue. The perception is that items in the Approvals are cheaper than the Auctions.
Putting items in "order" in the Approvals is difficult at times. If you have four items from a set of five the selling price for each of the four is different so in the approvals the items would appear on different sheets. Your sheet can have say 12 items at the same price but from X different sets. By definition the book cannot be in "order".
We have a unique Approvals system that appears to work for the majority.
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Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Ian
Approvals were conceived with in mind providing an easy sales platform for disposing of lower valued stamps. It works well, as the numbers show, although it did not succeed in removing theses low value stamps from auctions. To be honest, in Approvals, I don't think it makes much of a difference, at the low end, if you list at 3 c or at 5c or even at 10c. But that is my opinion, not a known fact.
Given that collectors work in specific area, a focused book grouping a lot of lower value stamps are best suited to help fill a lot of empty spaces. A random mix of offerings is best suited for the Auction platform.
Approvals also provide an inexpensive way to start a new collection area. This is why I am so surprised to see books with no focus and no organisation do as well as they do. I can see value for topical collectors, but collectors like me who focus on a country at a time...
This is different from Auctions where better stamps are expected, and pricing may be more critical as you compete with commercial sites as well. Our platform allows sorting by country or topic, and works MUCH better than ebay or Hipstamp or Delcampe, if only because it is less overwhelming, and new material appears daily.
Still folks sell low end (price wise) stamps on our Auctions. I think there is a strange split between those who buy or sell on only one platform as opposed to both. They were intended to be complementary. One is often stuck in one's old ways.
As I said it elsewhere, putting an Approval book in order is a courtesy from the seller to the collectors wanting to buy. It is not required by our rules although some level of organizing is required. For me it is a matter of pride, which is why I organize and add cat numbers. I noted that this takes very little extra time than just putting a book together with little or no organization. Minutes, not hours.
If I was just looking at the bottom line and every cent counted, it may be thought as absurd. But the premise here is that collectors selling to collectors in a Club setting would have similar values. No one equates the time one spends on ones own collection to dollar and cents.
rrr...
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Ralph,
I would also suggest that, as long as the seller is cataloging the items, they could prepare a google sheet index. The buyers could sort the index in catalog order to overcome the problem of arising from catalog contiguous stamps being separated as a result of different prices. The availability of such an index would also enable the buyer to construct a cross reference with their want list.
Harry
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06:48:39pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
rrraphy,
Yes in an ideal world everything should be lined up like pretty nice soldiers.
We do not live in an ideal world.
There you go again using the word "collector" assuming that everybody works in a particular way. We do not all work that way. Some Do Some Don't (reminds me of a song)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY3pkagV ...
Harry,
You totally lost me and a lot of other members when you mentioned "google sheet index". We sellers have enough to contend with thank you very much.
Please don't describe it to me I've enough running through my brain.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Ian,
I know you asked me not to describe it, but for the benefit of those who are interested, Google sheets is a service whereby anyone with a google account can give access to a spreadsheet by means of a link. Anyone with the link can access the spreadsheet. Here is an example.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1 ...
Harry
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07:31:56pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Harry,
The one problem with Google Sheets is that not everyone has the same software.
eg Not everybody can access Excel.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
What about
https://www.wps.com/
Free basic software.
Mod. Link active
(Modified by Moderator on 2022-09-21 05:42:10)
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Harry: Just so as not to overcomplicate requirements or suggestions to sellers like Ian ( who incidentally does a better job than many others, even in his worldwide books), the option of adding cat numbers should be ignored, as many catalog systems would just confuse the issue.
It is also easier to write in a cat number if you use the SOR forms for Approvals than the stock sheets many seem to favor. I noticed that sellers who use the Approval forms are more likely to write in the cat number, the years, or both.
The added work of adding a cat number for stamps selling at less than 10c should be seen as just as a courtesy gift from the seller. Add to that, there are many catalog systems, so Years may work better than Cat number for an International audience.
In all cases, a well organized book, in some sort of chronological order works just as well, for many. I doubt that too many sellers will bother to id perforation, watermarks etc..at these prices.
That being said, I will continue to put both years and cat numbers in chronologically ordered books. I have not issued new books for a while, but I may resume before year end, sticking to my vision of what Approval Books should be. As an observer, I am getting a good idea of what sells and does not sell and at what price, and it seems to have little to do with what I collect, with just a handful here with similar focus!
rrr..
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06:50:38am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
"It is also easier to write in a cat number if you use the SOR forms for Approvals than the stock sheets many seem to favor. "
The drawback to using the Approval Sheets is that the use of stamp hinges and the prospect of damage to the stamp when you remove the hinge for dispatch.
If you do not remove the hinge and cram 100 stamps into an envelope complete with all the hinges and there is dampness during posting just think of the number of stuck together stamps the buyer would receive!
yugh!!
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07:03:06am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
WARNING
DO NOT DOWNLOAD the wps software above if you use Adobe Acrobat for your pdfs as the wps system affects your use of Adobe Acrobat.
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07:34:02am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
That's odd - I've been using WPS and Adobe for a couple of years now. Hipstamp uses it as their word processing program. Bad link maybe?
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08:25:37am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
everything I had using Adobe (including all volumes of Scott 2017) were overriden by wps.
The volumes would not open.
I had to repair Adobe then re-apply that Adobe was my default.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
I have been online since the early 90s and have NEVER downloaded a Microsoft update - and have NEVER had a virus except once, and it arrived attached to an Adobe Acrobat document. From that time on, Acrobat Reader was banned in this house
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
I might also add I think Harrys idea of a Google Docs index is outstanding. He has created the perfect indexing system that allows you to do a search rather than read the index to look for a stamp. The + for mint and the ++ for never hinged is beautiful. I will be adopting this way of indexing if the time comes that I get back into single country books. It also for me anyway, gives me a head start on moving unsold stamps to another platform by doing some tweaking. I must have 50 books to break down and I just can't seem to find the time to do it.
Greg
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
"eg Not everybody can access Excel"
Ian,
Google sheets does not require Excel. If you have Excel (or any of the free spreadsheet programs which can save spreadsheets in the Excel format), you can import the file to Google sheets; however, you can also use a simple text editor such as notepad to create a tab or comma separated file for import.
Harry
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Why would a seller want to use a program that entails even more work, if you are going to have to input all the data then why not write it on a sheet of paper and scan it as the first page.
The fact that it is cloud based, not on your computer means you need a connection to even view or edit the details. It is not like the list will be amended every time a stamp is purchased. The buyer would still need to write down which pages and items they wish to view, so why not just go through the book.
Sorry, do not see it improving anything. More work for the seller, no real time benefit for the buyer.
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As I am not completely sure how I will work this when I switch to a google spreadsheet I cannot say on the front end how much more time it will take than what I currently do now. This will be in addition to my first page index, as I need to create that anyway to build the book. However, if you are a seller who sells elsewhere, what are you doing with the stamps in the closed books? For me, the nickel and dime stuff gets tossed into a bankers box never to probably be seen again. They used to go to penny auctions until out of 240 of them over a 6 week period, less than 10% of them sold for even a penny. No point in continuing that. So if I were using a spread sheet I could actually almost set it up properly to upload to another site just by changing the column names and cropping the images, which I would have to do anyway. I would also add a price to the stamp. I would need to do that anyway, multiplying it for the next site. I would certainly need to perfect the back end closed books process before I would begin to use a spreadsheet for an index though. I'd have to do some excel formula research first. Single country books are on hold for the rest of the year at this point though. I have to work on what happens to the unsold in my world wide books regarding editing the spreadsheet that served as an index.
For a buyer I guess its all about whether you use catalog numbers or not. If I am looking for a specific stamp for a country, I will not browse a book in the hope that it is there, when I can go to somewhere else and type a search into the site and find many copies of the same stamp for sale. If I found an SOR book with a searchable index, I certainly would use it. A link to the Google Drive doc is great, though it would be even better if somehow links could be embedded on the description page of the book
Greg
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02:13:14pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Greg,
Your unsold approval items could be utilised thus:-
a) Thrown into envelopes and/or old stockbooks and/or tins or small boxes put in a larger box and placed with your local auction house. A couple of weeks back I gave 6 Bankers boxes of this type to my local auction house and they sold for £165. Also in these boxes were hand-written FDC,s bundleware, kiloware etc etc..
b) Fill a stocksheet with them and list them in the auction here.
c) Mix them all up and list them as off paper kiloware here.
d) Reorganise them into new Approval Books at the original price. (It has worked for me in the past.)
e) Reorganise them into new Approval Books at a reduced price. (It has worked for me in the past)
f) Hold a Big Event like I did. (Better held in January or summer when its quiet). I prepared a thousand auction lots all at 10% of catalogue (I did this using several bulk uploads). I sold 50% during the event and another 20% after the event.
I hope I have given you some ideas.
PS Of course you could always send them to Dave at the Holocaust Project.
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"Sorry, do not see it improving anything. More work for the seller, no real time benefit for the buyer."
I guess I am wasting my time. Anything I do to try to make things easier for the buyer seems to be unappreciated. Is there even any point in providing catalog numbers?
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06:38:51pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
"Is there even any point in providing catalog numbers?"
In some cases yes.
Yes in the Special Large Books and High Value Books.
In the 100 stamps plus Books not so much.
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I'm starting to think that sellers who post approval books in no particular order have the right idea. Why bother if buyers don't care? Personally, I don't think I care to waste my time assembling any more approval books.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Harry
I kinda agree with you. Every time I have pushed to have tighter rules (we had once) and better enforcement, it was turned down as it "would discourage some members from posting" would be too exclusive, and would not be helpful to beginners. And the rules get more and more relaxed or not enforced, leaving a product that sells, and it does....but is disappointing to me.
I always suspected that collectors needed a simple way of filling a lot of min value spots in their albums, but I am still stunned by the volume of stamps going through. Tim could give us stats, it would be most informative, but I suspect half a million stamp a year at less than 10c each.
I must say in all fairness that there is another point of view for what this club should be, and it is ok. I have reconciled somewhat to trying to be more inclusive at the cost of higher standards. But some things are slipping by that should not be acceptable to anyone.
I will still put cat #s and years because I care, and I see it as a hobby and not a business, but I am not surprised you feel as you do, and I would not be surprised if others do too.
I have often wondered if a sortable index with year or cat number would be an asset. Things sell so fast, when they sell, that any index would be immediately obsolete, unless you could couple the pages address (book #, page #, item #) to the stamp info ( year, cat#, and what catalog), and have it machine update automatically in the sortable index, and that is not something I would wish for Tim!
rrr...
Mind you, for topical collectors the books, even in total disarray, are still extremely handy.
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04:05:09am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
" Tim could give us stats, it would be most informative, but I suspect half a million stamp a year at less than 10c each."
The stats are available if you know where to look. ie The reports section of Auction, sub-section Seller, sub-section Reports.
OK you'll need a calculator and some time but they are there.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Interesting ideas Ian but.....
"a) Thrown into envelopes and/or old stockbooks and/or tins or small boxes put in a larger box and placed with your local auction house. "
No such animal anywhere near Cornwall PA
"b) Fill a stocksheet with them and list them in the auction here.
"
Interesting idea. I just timed it. To take 30 stamps at random, and put them in a stock sheet, taking said stamps from a pile that for the most part Ralph would call junk, minimum CV stamps took 3 minutes. To check the condition however because the condition police are out there, for every stamp, took 5 1/2 minutes. Add to that the time to tke from the old stock sheets, and these would be only the minimum or 30 cent value stamps would probably take a total of 10 minutes or 6 sheets in an hour to sell for how much/ Maybe 50 cents. I tried this at auction early in the year offering cards at $1 and had one or two takers, which is why I stopped doing that experiment.
"c) Mix them all up and list them as off paper kiloware here"
Possibly could but would anyone buy them? I didn't get all that many takers on my mish mash lots which probably were at 5% catalog, if that.
"d) Reorganise them into new Approval Books
"
Been doing that from the very beginning. Used to do quite well when I did that, but we had more buyers. As I break down the old books I have been putting aside those I can add to to make a complete book again. I'll try single country books again in January for a month and see if the buying climate has changed.
"e) Reorganise them into new Approval Books at a reduced price. And F as well"
No, I truly believe that once you start to do that, all the buyers immediately drop back and wait for sales. It works for some here I know, but with all the increase in fees as well as what I call a Federal Income Tax of at least 12% on sellers, it's just not worth it to sell for 5-10% CV. I cannot compete with those that sell at that level.
"PS Of course you could always send them to Dave at the Holocaust Project."
I could, but that would mean sending a packet to Canada and someone then may add up the postage that I put on it. I'll leave it at that.
Harry to me worldwide books are the way to go these days. I have a book still active from January that is a worldwide book. I never expected that and have switched to doing them that way now with a spreadsheet index that can be modified quite easily to upload elsewhere when the book closes.
Greg
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10:04:47am
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Greg,
It was a few ideas but here is the final one.
With inflation, the price of heating going up.
Burn them and keep warm.
I know, you dont have an open fire or log burner!!
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
We used to, but since we moved to a retirement community - no. They don't even let the residents have a gas range, only electric. There is also an unenforced rule of no candles, but we burn them at dinner on Sundays.
As an aside, my wife gets Britbox (we haven't seen any US TV except for the old shows in decades) and has been watching Escape to The Country. It appears that many of the older homes have wood stoves or pellet stoves. Is heating that expensive? The possible home owners are always pleased to find these stoves in the houses they look at
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03:37:14pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
Greg,
You'll find that the wood stoves are more for show than actually heating the house. Most houses have natural gas boilers or some form of electric heating.
Natural gas was quite cheap until April this year when the wholesale market price for natural gas went up by 600% thanks to Putins invasion of Ukraine.
The majority of Europe got their gas from Russia and because they sanctioned Russia they were scrabbling around the world for alternative suppliers therefore the price rocketed.
The government here is going to subsidise households for two years. The rate of subsidy will mean we will only be paying double of what we were paying this time last year.
Personally it will not affect us this year as I have a fixed price contract until September next year but goodness knows what price I'll have to pay after the contract ends.
We also have an open fire that we burn coal.
Last year we were paying £36 for 100 Kilos, last week it had risen to £54. ( see this net zero climate change nonsense its a costly pain in the neck)
In fact my wife has just lit the fire so while typing this I am toasting my tootsies. Ah bliss!
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One of the reason I think I will see out the rest of my days in the tropics is that when the nighttime temperature falls below 20C (68F) we consider that is cold, but it only happens a couple of time a year. I will put up with the floods and the cost of air conditioning for this.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
No, we never could see ourselves moving south. We did actually, to south central PA (you can look up Cornwall PA on a map to see where we are) having come from Stroudsburg about 100 miles NE of here. Winter is not as severe as it is somewhat flat farmland around here compared to what the Poconos call mountains and I call high hills. Winters for the past 3 years have not dropped often below 20 degrees F. We have central air now which makes the summers (which are a bit warmer due to flatness) a little more enjoyable for a person (me) who is not happy when it is warmer than 72. We compromised on the indoor temperature of 67 in the summer 70 in the winter, but I do keep the bedroom door shut so I can open the window a bit in the winter and not chill the entire house. No real fireplace for us, just a dumb gas fake fireplace which actually does supply some heat. Flip the switch and instant fire. Loved our old fireplace. Nothing quite like the warmth of a fire! Actually cooked on it once when Hurricane Sandy took our power out. No power, no electric range. So I made soup in a pot over the open fire. Worked out great.
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re: NOTE TO APPROVAL SELLERS
"I'm beginning to think that, maybe I should be listing less on SOR and more on Hip Stamps."
God Forbid!
Paul, keep posting those disorganized books, which I like the best!
To me it is fun, because I do not know what I will find on the next page and in your case quality is where it has to be - always high and you post enough nuggets at 5, 10, 15 cents/piece to make it a great sport. The covers, aerograms and cards were awesome too. I kept reading those letters and delving into the private lives of people in Guyana , India.... some 40-50 years ago.
Hip Stamps? I keep going back looking but for the past two years have not been able to place a single order, so a waste of time to me.
I keep my spare stamps on stockbook pages or in glassines organized by country. This way I can avoid a WW book, and if not enough stamps are available for a complete approval book, I can have one for a continent - Africa, South America, etc.
Organizing stamps helps in finding out those that are unlikely to sell. No point listing something that will not sell - if a seller can figure out those stamps, a lot of time and effort will be saved.
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