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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

 

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

28 Dec 2021
04:26:25pm

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This has led me to an unsuccessful session going through all the catalogues. It looks a bit like an Austrian newspaper stamp, the letters K.G (or O) L. and F.R.M (?) On the other hand seem to be more like early Danish.
The currency is dual: 4 Krs and 1 1/4 Sch.C. Kreuzer / Schilling?

Who can help?

Image Not Found

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HolocaustStamps

28 Dec 2021
07:55:45pm
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Hermes head is making me think Greece but in conjunction with your guess on denominations also Austria. (I'm thinking not Greece since there are no typical Greek letter on the stamp).

Did Austria have offices in Greece possibly? Maybe a revenue?

The "K.O.L. POST F.R.H." acronym is definitely a tasty clue but my brain is a bit muddied with leftover ham and turkey right now, so might need a good night's sleep.

Good luck, Dave.

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holocauststampsproject.ca
amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Dec 2021
08:22:30pm

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re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

did we look in countries that were part of Austro-Hungary, like Serbia, B-H?

I don't think this has any relation to Greece; but think your guess about Austrian newspaper or express stamps is the best lead to follow

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michael78651

28 Dec 2021
09:40:33pm
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Austrian newspaper stamps depict the head of Mercury, not Hermes. This is not from Austria.

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Laeding
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29 Dec 2021
12:59:09am
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Hi, Jansimon,

It's a Danish Essay designed by Martinus Ferslew in 1852 (he died the same year). Ferslew designed Denmark's first stamp. Whether your copy is genuine or not I cannot say. Denmark issued a souvenir sheet depicting this and other essays by Ferslew issued in 1975 (search Denmark or Danmark 1976 HAFNIA). I think there was a souvenir HAFNIA card, too. The examples I've seen of the genuine essays were bicolored, but others may exist.

4 RBS = 4 rigsbankskilling

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

29 Dec 2021
04:09:02am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Image Not Found

Thank you! I must have made a mental note of that Denmark sheet unconsciously, because this stamp looked so familiar. For a moment I thought it was cut from the sheet, but as you can see, that's not the case. This essay is slightly larger and has more details. At the same time it looks a bit crude so you may be right, assuming it is a forgery. The cancel (the black curved line should be a cancel, I presume) is odd. Both because it is on an essay and because it is not the normal concentric circles cancel.

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Laeding
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29 Dec 2021
12:39:47pm
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Genuine or not, it is pretty cool!!

The 'genuine" copies I saw were reddish-brown with a light-bluish background, kind of a weird color combination!

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

29 Dec 2021
01:03:10pm

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re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

I did some searching and saw that there is an all brown version as well. This is most likely a fake because the 4 is open instead of closed

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pigdoc

29 Dec 2021
05:08:01pm
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

The diagonal lines in the background look like an attempt to fake burelage.

-Paul

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

29 Dec 2021
05:19:56pm

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re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

the lightblue background is actually the hatching.

For more info on forgeries see this site
http://stampforgeries.com/denmark-essays/

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musicman
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APS #213005

31 Dec 2021
07:54:34am
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Great thread here, everyone - great info!

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pigdoc

31 Dec 2021
09:34:02am
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Looking at the stampforgeries site, there are only a couple of Reprints shown as examples of official (not forged) printings.
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

Not sure what these are, but Roger North was offering these two pairs, one genuine, and one forged for reference:
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

I spent some time comparing these two pairs, because I like finding differences - it's like a puzzle!

Here's what I notice:
- Pearls around the central image between the two pairs. Top pair has 50 pearls, bottom pair only 45.
- Pearls in the corners. Here's a graphical representation of those counts:

Top pair:
10 10 11 10

7 7 7 6

Bottom pair:
9 10 9 9

6 6 6.5 5

Based on comparing the unknown pairs to the reference reprints, I would judge the top pair to be genuine, the bottom pair to be forged.

But, the forgeries are very, very good, yes?

-Paul

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Laeding
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31 Dec 2021
10:59:06am
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Hi, Paul (pigdoc)!

The originals I saw were also a pair (4 RBS and 8 RBS) offered by Northland, and also had a pair of "non-genuine" of the same. I couldn't remember where I saw them, whether on the website, hipstamp, ebay, etc., so did a search using "ferslew proof northland" and was able to pull up an old listing on HipStamp, but wasn't able to successfully upload the image.

EDIT: Compared pigdoc's image to the one listed on hipstamp, and they are the same. It looks like one dealer may have sold it to the other if both had the exact same set offered up!


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pigdoc

31 Dec 2021
11:54:39am
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Ya, Sean, you are correct about where I found the images. I was surfing up these stamps a few nights ago. Because, I think they are very attractive!

If someone was putting together an exhibit on Denmark #1 (not me), these Ferslew essays would make a very nice part of it!

Seems somewhat strange that there were so many forgeries....of an essay!

-Paul

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

31 Dec 2021
03:36:57pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Mine also has
11 / 10
7 / 6
= 50 Pearls in the corners. Just saying...

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www.etsy.com/nl/shop/itsallmadeofpaper/
pigdoc

01 Jan 2022
03:18:05pm
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Interesting, Jan-Simon.

Actually, I counted 51 pearls around the central vignette on your stamp. Counted them 4 times.

Sometimes I wonder if differences (like the number of pearls in the design) are just simple variation between the various cliches that were individually hand-engraved and assembled to create a printing plate. Most hand-engraved printing plates show examples of this type of minor variation. That's what allows individual stamps to be "plated". Another example of how it would be enlightening to be able to time-travel back 170 years to look over the shoulder of an engraver like Ferslew, or spend time in a print shop.

I think it is also interesting that there were often multiple forgers of a single stamp issue. Must have been (be?) quite a marketplace...

-Paul

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

01 Jan 2022
11:29:50pm
re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

" ... Seems somewhat strange that there were so many
forgeries....of an essay! ..."

No, not all that strange. Forging a genuine stamp is
probably whatever is the equivalent in Danmark of a
Federal crime here (USA) with stiff penalties.
Forging an essay is just a possibly copyright-like
problem, if that, a hundred and fifty or so years
ago, anywhere.
The crime would only be on the head of a user for
evading the postage rate.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
        

 

Author/Postings
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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
28 Dec 2021
04:26:25pm

Auctions - Approvals

This has led me to an unsuccessful session going through all the catalogues. It looks a bit like an Austrian newspaper stamp, the letters K.G (or O) L. and F.R.M (?) On the other hand seem to be more like early Danish.
The currency is dual: 4 Krs and 1 1/4 Sch.C. Kreuzer / Schilling?

Who can help?

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
HolocaustStamps

28 Dec 2021
07:55:45pm

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Hermes head is making me think Greece but in conjunction with your guess on denominations also Austria. (I'm thinking not Greece since there are no typical Greek letter on the stamp).

Did Austria have offices in Greece possibly? Maybe a revenue?

The "K.O.L. POST F.R.H." acronym is definitely a tasty clue but my brain is a bit muddied with leftover ham and turkey right now, so might need a good night's sleep.

Good luck, Dave.

Like
Login to Like
this post

holocauststampsproje ...
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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Dec 2021
08:22:30pm

Auctions

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

did we look in countries that were part of Austro-Hungary, like Serbia, B-H?

I don't think this has any relation to Greece; but think your guess about Austrian newspaper or express stamps is the best lead to follow

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
michael78651

28 Dec 2021
09:40:33pm

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Austrian newspaper stamps depict the head of Mercury, not Hermes. This is not from Austria.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Laeding

29 Dec 2021
12:59:09am

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Hi, Jansimon,

It's a Danish Essay designed by Martinus Ferslew in 1852 (he died the same year). Ferslew designed Denmark's first stamp. Whether your copy is genuine or not I cannot say. Denmark issued a souvenir sheet depicting this and other essays by Ferslew issued in 1975 (search Denmark or Danmark 1976 HAFNIA). I think there was a souvenir HAFNIA card, too. The examples I've seen of the genuine essays were bicolored, but others may exist.

4 RBS = 4 rigsbankskilling

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
29 Dec 2021
04:09:02am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Image Not Found

Thank you! I must have made a mental note of that Denmark sheet unconsciously, because this stamp looked so familiar. For a moment I thought it was cut from the sheet, but as you can see, that's not the case. This essay is slightly larger and has more details. At the same time it looks a bit crude so you may be right, assuming it is a forgery. The cancel (the black curved line should be a cancel, I presume) is odd. Both because it is on an essay and because it is not the normal concentric circles cancel.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
Laeding

29 Dec 2021
12:39:47pm

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Genuine or not, it is pretty cool!!

The 'genuine" copies I saw were reddish-brown with a light-bluish background, kind of a weird color combination!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
29 Dec 2021
01:03:10pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

I did some searching and saw that there is an all brown version as well. This is most likely a fake because the 4 is open instead of closed

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
pigdoc

29 Dec 2021
05:08:01pm

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

The diagonal lines in the background look like an attempt to fake burelage.

-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
29 Dec 2021
05:19:56pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

the lightblue background is actually the hatching.

For more info on forgeries see this site
http://stampforgeries.com/denmark-essays/

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
musicman

APS #213005
31 Dec 2021
07:54:34am

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Great thread here, everyone - great info!

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

31 Dec 2021
09:34:02am

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Looking at the stampforgeries site, there are only a couple of Reprints shown as examples of official (not forged) printings.
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

Not sure what these are, but Roger North was offering these two pairs, one genuine, and one forged for reference:
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

I spent some time comparing these two pairs, because I like finding differences - it's like a puzzle!

Here's what I notice:
- Pearls around the central image between the two pairs. Top pair has 50 pearls, bottom pair only 45.
- Pearls in the corners. Here's a graphical representation of those counts:

Top pair:
10 10 11 10

7 7 7 6

Bottom pair:
9 10 9 9

6 6 6.5 5

Based on comparing the unknown pairs to the reference reprints, I would judge the top pair to be genuine, the bottom pair to be forged.

But, the forgeries are very, very good, yes?

-Paul

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Laeding

31 Dec 2021
10:59:06am

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Hi, Paul (pigdoc)!

The originals I saw were also a pair (4 RBS and 8 RBS) offered by Northland, and also had a pair of "non-genuine" of the same. I couldn't remember where I saw them, whether on the website, hipstamp, ebay, etc., so did a search using "ferslew proof northland" and was able to pull up an old listing on HipStamp, but wasn't able to successfully upload the image.

EDIT: Compared pigdoc's image to the one listed on hipstamp, and they are the same. It looks like one dealer may have sold it to the other if both had the exact same set offered up!


Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

31 Dec 2021
11:54:39am

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Ya, Sean, you are correct about where I found the images. I was surfing up these stamps a few nights ago. Because, I think they are very attractive!

If someone was putting together an exhibit on Denmark #1 (not me), these Ferslew essays would make a very nice part of it!

Seems somewhat strange that there were so many forgeries....of an essay!

-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
31 Dec 2021
03:36:57pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Mine also has
11 / 10
7 / 6
= 50 Pearls in the corners. Just saying...

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
pigdoc

01 Jan 2022
03:18:05pm

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

Interesting, Jan-Simon.

Actually, I counted 51 pearls around the central vignette on your stamp. Counted them 4 times.

Sometimes I wonder if differences (like the number of pearls in the design) are just simple variation between the various cliches that were individually hand-engraved and assembled to create a printing plate. Most hand-engraved printing plates show examples of this type of minor variation. That's what allows individual stamps to be "plated". Another example of how it would be enlightening to be able to time-travel back 170 years to look over the shoulder of an engraver like Ferslew, or spend time in a print shop.

I think it is also interesting that there were often multiple forgers of a single stamp issue. Must have been (be?) quite a marketplace...

-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 Jan 2022
11:29:50pm

re: Q: Newspaper stamp? A: no, it is a Danish essay (or a forgery of one)

" ... Seems somewhat strange that there were so many
forgeries....of an essay! ..."

No, not all that strange. Forging a genuine stamp is
probably whatever is the equivalent in Danmark of a
Federal crime here (USA) with stiff penalties.
Forging an essay is just a possibly copyright-like
problem, if that, a hundred and fifty or so years
ago, anywhere.
The crime would only be on the head of a user for
evading the postage rate.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
        

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