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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

 

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Twohungover
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The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)

15 Dec 2021
01:43:11am
So I have had this Franklin 1 cent for years, never thought much of it just came from my Grandfathers old shoe box of stamps he had acquired throughout his life. For whatever reason I haven't a clue ( boredom maybe ) I decided to start identifying some of them. When I got to this one here shown in the picture I did my usual routine and it came up as a # 596. Well it was about an hour later I noticed the value and was shocked " There must be some mistake" I thought to myself. I've spent over a week now trying to get this stamp to be a different # and cannot do it. I have scrutinized it on a merit gauge with a microscope and it will not line up on anything but 11 x 11. Next was the mm gauge because it must be a #552 the since it is the only other 11 x 11 I am aware of. To me it was not an engraved plate though, no green on the back from air drying in stacks and the measurements were not there either. So I payed a small fee to Mystic Stamps shot them a scanned picture the one you see here and asked them to identify the stamp. They said in their opinion it is a Rotary Press 11 x 10 1/2 perforated # 632 worth 25 cents. So back to the Merit Gauge and microscope it went and they are incorrect. This stamp is a 11 x 11 there is no possible way I can get it to fit anything else. Theretofore I am left with the stamp being a Rotary Press 11 x 11 #596 period. Am I crazy and just don't understand something about the Merit Gauge or I don't know, any help is welcome. Thank you.


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angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

15 Dec 2021
05:44:06am
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

You are not the first person that thinks they may have a #596 but never spent much time studying what many get wrong.

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pigdoc

15 Dec 2021
06:18:37am
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Yup, you're missing something.

I downloaded your image. Then, I copied the left edge perfs, rotated them 90 degrees, and pasted them along the bottom edge. On the part I pasted, you can see that at the left side, the holes line up. At the right side, they don't. Simple conclusion: the perforations at the sides are different than the perfs top and bottom.

Image Not Found

-Paul

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Twohungover
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The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)

15 Dec 2021
04:13:34pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

That is compelling evidence in favor of it being a #632 but this is what I see from my end in these two pics. One of 11 and the other of 10 1/2 and it is either me or the gauge?Image Not Found

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sheepshanks
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15 Dec 2021
04:19:48pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Try lining the holes of the perfs with the blobs on the gauge, I'd use the ones down the side rather than the stepped ones.
To my eyes the points look off from about the 3rd or 4th perf from the left.

Edit, turn the stamp over to avoid the distraction of the printed side.

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Twohungover
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The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)

15 Dec 2021
04:38:31pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

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Twohungover
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The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)

15 Dec 2021
04:43:32pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

I've try'd using different gauges , putting it on the side gauges everything. The results are the same no matter what I do. So the gauge say's what it say's like it or not and I still am not convinced it is a #596 but I am also not convinced it is anything else.

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mbo1142
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

15 Dec 2021
06:12:39pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

All the pictures you show are perfs for the top and bottom. Show a picture of the stamp turned upside down as sheepshanks suggest and show the side perforations similar to what pigdoc indicated, but show it on your gauge so that we may get a better picture.

Mel

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Twohungover
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The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)

15 Dec 2021
06:51:05pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

The sides are not in question the top and bottom are. Listen I am not saying this is a 594 but I am also not convinced it is a 632. It should be very apparent to anyone that this is a 11 perforated top and bottom by looking at the photos. I really do not see how flipping the stamp over is going to change the perforations or reveal something that the front is covering or anything. If this were any other stamp I think this would have been declared an 11 x 11 long ago. But when I get back from shopping I will take more photos and post them. Thank you all for your help with this

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"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."
roy
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15 Dec 2021
08:25:04pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

"The sides are not in question the top and bottom are."



I believe the confusion is stemming from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the numbers 11 x 11 and 11 x 10.5 mean.

It is precisely the sides that are in question.

mbo1142 had the right idea, but made the mistake of saying "turn the stamp upside down", when I think he should have said, turn the stamp sideways.

A perf gauge of 11 x 11 means that both the top and bottom are perf 11 (the first number) and the sides are also perf 11.

A gauge of 11 x 10.5 means top and bottom are 11, while the sides are 10.5. Nowhere in your pictures do you show the measurement of the sides. pigdocs manipulation of the image shows that the sides are not the same gauge as the top. You could verify this if you turn the stamp sideways and measure the side perforations.

There are stamps in the world where the top and bottom are different perfs, but these are very unusual and are usually experimental perforations, where the sheet was passed through different machines for different rows. In these rare cases these stamps will be described very specifically with perf measurements for specific sides.

In summary, Scott's perforation quotations are always Top/bottom x Sides (Gibbons reverses the order *). In the case of only one number, it means "all around". i.e. perf 11 means the same as 11 x 11

Roy

* Don't know where I got that idea!
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michael78651

15 Dec 2021
08:43:42pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

It is not a 596.

- only 15 examples are known
- 10 are precanceled Kansas City, Mo
- the green on 596 is darker than the color of the ink on your stamp

We must get 100 or more people a year claiming to have a 596. If that were the case, then it would be worth only 25 cents.

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sheepshanks
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15 Dec 2021
09:02:46pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Just to add a correction to Roys post, SG uses the same perf measurement system as Scott top/bottom then sides.

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Twohungover
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The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)

16 Dec 2021
02:17:41am
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Roy you solved the mystery I was having, I did not realize the 10 1/2 was the side of the stamp I thought it was the top and bottom. Well it does fit into a 10 1/2 slot nicely so it is a #632 thank you all for the help. Roy thank you for educating me on the perforations being on the sides. Dusty R Cobb

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"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."
angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

16 Dec 2021
05:46:35am
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

If you really want to measure these early US issues, I would suggest getting the Kiusalas Specialty Gauge. This is is when close (measurement based upon rounded gauge markings) is not good enough.

http://www.smpiller.com/Perfgauge.htm

This is a dealer (who just passed away) link but available at many places.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

17 Dec 2021
06:29:36pm
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

" .... This is is when close (measurement based upon rounded
gauge markings) is not good enough. ...."

An important point; Generally catalogs round the measurement
off to the nearest ¼.
I suspect that there are a few stamps whose precise perforation
measurement is at the 1/8th or 3/8s, 5/8s, or 7/8s point, and
which is usually beyond the needs of the average collector,
(Male, 58 years old and at least 20 pounds overweight.), however
a decision was made based on the phases of the moon and tradition,
(Stare Decisis. ) takes over from there.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
DannyS
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18 Dec 2021
09:59:07am
re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

We do have a Thai definitive which is 14 x 14.4Happy

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Author/Postings

The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)
15 Dec 2021
01:43:11am

So I have had this Franklin 1 cent for years, never thought much of it just came from my Grandfathers old shoe box of stamps he had acquired throughout his life. For whatever reason I haven't a clue ( boredom maybe ) I decided to start identifying some of them. When I got to this one here shown in the picture I did my usual routine and it came up as a # 596. Well it was about an hour later I noticed the value and was shocked " There must be some mistake" I thought to myself. I've spent over a week now trying to get this stamp to be a different # and cannot do it. I have scrutinized it on a merit gauge with a microscope and it will not line up on anything but 11 x 11. Next was the mm gauge because it must be a #552 the since it is the only other 11 x 11 I am aware of. To me it was not an engraved plate though, no green on the back from air drying in stacks and the measurements were not there either. So I payed a small fee to Mystic Stamps shot them a scanned picture the one you see here and asked them to identify the stamp. They said in their opinion it is a Rotary Press 11 x 10 1/2 perforated # 632 worth 25 cents. So back to the Merit Gauge and microscope it went and they are incorrect. This stamp is a 11 x 11 there is no possible way I can get it to fit anything else. Theretofore I am left with the stamp being a Rotary Press 11 x 11 #596 period. Am I crazy and just don't understand something about the Merit Gauge or I don't know, any help is welcome. Thank you.


Image Not Found Image Not Found

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"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."
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angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
15 Dec 2021
05:44:06am

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

You are not the first person that thinks they may have a #596 but never spent much time studying what many get wrong.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
pigdoc

15 Dec 2021
06:18:37am

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Yup, you're missing something.

I downloaded your image. Then, I copied the left edge perfs, rotated them 90 degrees, and pasted them along the bottom edge. On the part I pasted, you can see that at the left side, the holes line up. At the right side, they don't. Simple conclusion: the perforations at the sides are different than the perfs top and bottom.

Image Not Found

-Paul

Like
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this post

The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)
15 Dec 2021
04:13:34pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

That is compelling evidence in favor of it being a #632 but this is what I see from my end in these two pics. One of 11 and the other of 10 1/2 and it is either me or the gauge?Image Not Found

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this post

"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."
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sheepshanks

15 Dec 2021
04:19:48pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Try lining the holes of the perfs with the blobs on the gauge, I'd use the ones down the side rather than the stepped ones.
To my eyes the points look off from about the 3rd or 4th perf from the left.

Edit, turn the stamp over to avoid the distraction of the printed side.

Like
Login to Like
this post

The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)
15 Dec 2021
04:38:31pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."

The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)
15 Dec 2021
04:43:32pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

I've try'd using different gauges , putting it on the side gauges everything. The results are the same no matter what I do. So the gauge say's what it say's like it or not and I still am not convinced it is a #596 but I am also not convinced it is anything else.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."
Members Picture
mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
15 Dec 2021
06:12:39pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

All the pictures you show are perfs for the top and bottom. Show a picture of the stamp turned upside down as sheepshanks suggest and show the side perforations similar to what pigdoc indicated, but show it on your gauge so that we may get a better picture.

Mel

Like
Login to Like
this post

The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)
15 Dec 2021
06:51:05pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

The sides are not in question the top and bottom are. Listen I am not saying this is a 594 but I am also not convinced it is a 632. It should be very apparent to anyone that this is a 11 perforated top and bottom by looking at the photos. I really do not see how flipping the stamp over is going to change the perforations or reveal something that the front is covering or anything. If this were any other stamp I think this would have been declared an 11 x 11 long ago. But when I get back from shopping I will take more photos and post them. Thank you all for your help with this

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."

BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
15 Dec 2021
08:25:04pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

"The sides are not in question the top and bottom are."



I believe the confusion is stemming from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the numbers 11 x 11 and 11 x 10.5 mean.

It is precisely the sides that are in question.

mbo1142 had the right idea, but made the mistake of saying "turn the stamp upside down", when I think he should have said, turn the stamp sideways.

A perf gauge of 11 x 11 means that both the top and bottom are perf 11 (the first number) and the sides are also perf 11.

A gauge of 11 x 10.5 means top and bottom are 11, while the sides are 10.5. Nowhere in your pictures do you show the measurement of the sides. pigdocs manipulation of the image shows that the sides are not the same gauge as the top. You could verify this if you turn the stamp sideways and measure the side perforations.

There are stamps in the world where the top and bottom are different perfs, but these are very unusual and are usually experimental perforations, where the sheet was passed through different machines for different rows. In these rare cases these stamps will be described very specifically with perf measurements for specific sides.

In summary, Scott's perforation quotations are always Top/bottom x Sides (Gibbons reverses the order *). In the case of only one number, it means "all around". i.e. perf 11 means the same as 11 x 11

Roy

* Don't know where I got that idea!
Like
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"BuckaCover.com - Since 2003 - Over One million covers sold - What have you been missing?"

www.Buckacover.com
michael78651

15 Dec 2021
08:43:42pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

It is not a 596.

- only 15 examples are known
- 10 are precanceled Kansas City, Mo
- the green on 596 is darker than the color of the ink on your stamp

We must get 100 or more people a year claiming to have a 596. If that were the case, then it would be worth only 25 cents.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
sheepshanks

15 Dec 2021
09:02:46pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Just to add a correction to Roys post, SG uses the same perf measurement system as Scott top/bottom then sides.

Like
Login to Like
this post

The one thing sure to go away by ignoring it, is your teeth (Quote Dr. Spencer)
16 Dec 2021
02:17:41am

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

Roy you solved the mystery I was having, I did not realize the 10 1/2 was the side of the stamp I thought it was the top and bottom. Well it does fit into a 10 1/2 slot nicely so it is a #632 thank you all for the help. Roy thank you for educating me on the perforations being on the sides. Dusty R Cobb

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I was thinking, I think I was thinking, I thought."
Members Picture
angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
16 Dec 2021
05:46:35am

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

If you really want to measure these early US issues, I would suggest getting the Kiusalas Specialty Gauge. This is is when close (measurement based upon rounded gauge markings) is not good enough.

http://www.smpiller.com/Perfgauge.htm

This is a dealer (who just passed away) link but available at many places.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Dec 2021
06:29:36pm

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

" .... This is is when close (measurement based upon rounded
gauge markings) is not good enough. ...."

An important point; Generally catalogs round the measurement
off to the nearest ¼.
I suspect that there are a few stamps whose precise perforation
measurement is at the 1/8th or 3/8s, 5/8s, or 7/8s point, and
which is usually beyond the needs of the average collector,
(Male, 58 years old and at least 20 pounds overweight.), however
a decision was made based on the phases of the moon and tradition,
(Stare Decisis. ) takes over from there.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
DannyS

18 Dec 2021
09:59:07am

re: Scott # ??? Am I missing something here?

We do have a Thai definitive which is 14 x 14.4Happy

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
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