Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Having yesterday just received this nicely stamped envelope from the UK,
I guess that it is now officially good to Biro across all the stamps.
Now as this is an "Official" method of cancellation, in the same manner as date stamps, wavy line cancellers and inkjet slogan cancels, are the stamps now going to be collectible and will catalogue producers have to put in a fourth value Column "used with pen cancel".
I wonder what, if anything, are the comments from the major stamp societies like APS and RPS in this regard.
Sure puts one off collecting modern used stamps.
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Vic
The instruction you have shown is for Bar coded stamps only.
The image of the numerous stamps does not contain a bar coded stamp.
The instructions are for postmasters NOT postmen or delivery offices.
The letter in the image may well have been put in a post box then arrived at the sorting office and then on to the delivery office.
It may well be the first time it was seen by a human was when the postman or woman sorted their mail for delivery.
The postmen or women do not have a cancellation device and they are under instruction to "cancel" the stamps to prevent fraud.
Edit It has always been policy for stamps to be cancelled in fact the Victorians made sure by almost obliterating the stamps on letters. George V stamps on parcels were treated the same way that is why there are few VF Used Seahorses.
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Ian, I know the image referred to bar coded stamps but I'm sure that it applies to ordinary mail as well.
The mail came from BB stamps in Newbury and would have been only one of many posted at that time. The envelope itself was 13 x 9 inches so probably not dropped in a mail box.
I do appreciate that all mail is to be cancelled, but when someone has obviously gone to the trouble of putting a variety of stamps on the mail, I reckon it was just sheer vindictiveness on the part of someone.
My local delivery office do not mark anything that comes in unmarked, they allow me to hand stamp the items myself. Benefit of a small local community where the postmistress is a friend.
Just sad that the postal authorities are not doing there utmost to promote the hobby, from which they make millions.
Guess at least I have a couple of placeholders.
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Mail is not cancelled at the counter of the post office. It is tossed in a bag carted to a mail centre where it is tossed onto a conveyor belt and finds it way through various machines or if bulky tossed by hand into another bag and then shipped to the "local" sorting office where it is then put into its route.
You are lucky that you are allowed to handstamp your letters.
Most of the P O's here are a single clerk operation and the queues are long enough without having to wait for the clerk to handstamp everybody's letters and parcels.
" but when someone has obviously gone to the trouble of putting a variety of stamps on the mail, I reckon it was just sheer vindictiveness on the part of someone."
The only reason that companies like BB have such a variety of stamps is they bought them at less than face value!!
Vindictiveness is not the reason either. It is the fact that the system is faulty, the staff are not trained properly and are under pressure to meet targets. In our area where one delivery person done a single route they now have to do 2 routes.
Time is of the essence and it is much easier when sorting to have a pen stuck behind the ear rather than a handstamp.
Yes it is not nice to get the pen marks across some packages but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avU2aarQUiU
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10:54:13pm
" .... are the stamps now going to be collectible ...."
Everything is collectable if it is of interest to someone.
Barbed wire strands are both collectable and traded.
Classic decorated Tudor era night soil bowls are collectable.
On one of those Antique Appraisal shows a lady presented a
very attractively decorated bowl that she claimed had been
her great grandmother's possession.
The dealer noticed it had been made at some famous foundry in
Great Britain a hundred or more years ago. He suggested that
it be put it in an auction with one or two hundred dollars as
the opening bid.
The woman was very happy about her good find until she was
told that the fancy Salad bowl she had been using for some time
was a night soil container.
No matter what a gadget is, somewhere there is a collector.
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Vic, I would have happily added those nice stamps to my collection disregarding the pen treatment.
From what I know, years ago collectors expressed disappointment with the biro cancellations and Royal Mail readily obliged by designing a new general canceller to be used instead of pens and markers.
This is the one:
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I do think in the future we will be collecting pen cancelled stamps. After all they have been postally used which is more some first day covers can claim. In fact it's a 'back to the future' thing as we do see pen cancelled stamps from the late 19th Century and not all of them are fiscals.
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I take all my SOR mailings to our postal outlet at Shoppers Drug Mart and ask for a CDS which they are happy to do with me standing there chatting with them. I just tell them I have weighed and measured and applied the correct postage and they don't check anymore now that they know me (they only did the first 2-3 times).
Recently, a Regional Manager was there doing an audit and asked if I minded her checking a couple items as part of it. Of course I had no problem saying yes and she was quite happy to find I was honest. In fact, one envelope weighed 32g - putting me in the $1.94 bracket (to US) rather than $1.30 for under 30g and she laughed that I had $1.94 postage attached. She told me "next time if it's less than 5g into the next weight category don't worry about the "extra" postage if you bring it in here to be cancelled - just don't drop it in the mailbox.
I also asked about the pen-mutilations and she told me that postal employees were not permitted to do so, and that a memo had been sent out recently confirming that rule - with the potential for disciplinary action. She said it was never the carriers, but always "certain people" and in "certain areas" during the sorting process - often at the final stage before being given to the carriers. Interestingly, we have a stamp donor (non-SOR) from Quebec who sends a small envelope monthly. 100% of the time in the past 3 years it has arrived with a pen-mutilation. The manager said "that's especially typical for mail going through Quebec".
Dave.
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Dave
i heard about that saboteur: Marine LePen. Notorious on both sides of the Atlantic.
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"i heard about that saboteur: Marine LePen. Notorious on both sides of the
Atlantic"
A Christmas gift idea for your postman!
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"A Christmas gift idea for your postman!"
The US Hunting stamps are cancelled by the hunters signing their names on the stamps in ink. They are not considered faulty because of the signature.
There are so many types of cancellations that I dislike these days, that the biro is way down the list.
There are US Christmas smudged cancellations that completely destroy the stamp. There are the French electronic wavy lines, our Canadian electronic "//////" nonsense , the UK one shown above and the list goes on. Then we have to deal with an increased number of self adhesive stamps that do not soak - most recently the Swedish and Danish ones.
Another subject can be the size of the cancellation. The older Canadian stamps can be found with nice SON cancellations, since those were small enough to fit on the stamp. Today's Canadian cancelers are the size that can only fit on a large souvenir sheet.
If I cannot read the date and the name of town, much of the fun is gone.
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"If I cannot read the date and the name of town, much of the fun is gone."
Agreed! Back in the day, my uncle worked for the local electric and gas company. He'd bring me huge boxes... think large moving box... full of envelopes that people used to mail in their bill payments.
That's what inspired me to start my New Jersey postmark collection as a kid... as I went through those boxes, I kept all the neat looking covers with local town cancels!
Now a days it would be rather dismal to sort through a similar box! When my daughter got married 5 years ago, I asked her to save the wedding response envelopes for me. We did so for our wedding back in 1981, and some of those covers are part of my collection today. It's nice to have old family names on covers in my NJ cancel collection.
She gave me a big bag of the envelopes, all that she carefully opened for me and guess what? Of the 100 covers, there were maybe 5 different cancels... all from the regional sorting centers! I did include one of each type in my collection, since they are indeed New Jersey cancels, but the fun was sucked right out of the exercise!
And that's why I do my post office rally runs today. It's pretty much the only way I'm going to find current town cancels. And someday I may have the only existing example of some of the small offices, especially the CPO contract stations!
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Any one on here who has purchased from me has always had circular date stamps cancelled Virginia LPO very rarely do I not get the mail handed cancelled infact I always do it myself .We used to have special bins for mail to be hand sorted but Australia Post stopped using them,so I don't know if they get cancelled again but I try to keep the stamps lower down so if they do cancel the cover again they miss the stamps .
Just my little bit to help members get nice cancelled stamps 
Brian
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06:34:38am
" ...m keep the stamps lower down ..."
Covers from Brian are always carefully cancelled as are envelopes
from many other members and dealers.
However, there are a few who, despite being involved with the stamp
collecting hobby or business, will place some beautiful stamps so
close to the right edge that the cancelling devices can almost not
avoid catching the edge and tearing the stamp.
I have often considered scanning their cover and posting it where
everyone can see how stupid and inconsiderate they are.
Surely they know that we collect stamps or intact covers.
How dumb can they be?
This has bothered me for a long time and it feels like diving into
a cool pool on a hot day to finally write it out.
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Approvals
Reading the Norvic Philatelics Blog https://blog.norphil.co.uk/ regarding the new UK 2021 Christmas stamps, there is an image of a postal instruction to postmasters as follows:-
Having yesterday just received this nicely stamped envelope from the UK,
I guess that it is now officially good to Biro across all the stamps.
Now as this is an "Official" method of cancellation, in the same manner as date stamps, wavy line cancellers and inkjet slogan cancels, are the stamps now going to be collectible and will catalogue producers have to put in a fourth value Column "used with pen cancel".
I wonder what, if anything, are the comments from the major stamp societies like APS and RPS in this regard.
Sure puts one off collecting modern used stamps.
Login to Like
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04:52:23pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Post office cancels
Vic
The instruction you have shown is for Bar coded stamps only.
The image of the numerous stamps does not contain a bar coded stamp.
The instructions are for postmasters NOT postmen or delivery offices.
The letter in the image may well have been put in a post box then arrived at the sorting office and then on to the delivery office.
It may well be the first time it was seen by a human was when the postman or woman sorted their mail for delivery.
The postmen or women do not have a cancellation device and they are under instruction to "cancel" the stamps to prevent fraud.
Edit It has always been policy for stamps to be cancelled in fact the Victorians made sure by almost obliterating the stamps on letters. George V stamps on parcels were treated the same way that is why there are few VF Used Seahorses.
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likes this post.
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re: Post office cancels
Ian, I know the image referred to bar coded stamps but I'm sure that it applies to ordinary mail as well.
The mail came from BB stamps in Newbury and would have been only one of many posted at that time. The envelope itself was 13 x 9 inches so probably not dropped in a mail box.
I do appreciate that all mail is to be cancelled, but when someone has obviously gone to the trouble of putting a variety of stamps on the mail, I reckon it was just sheer vindictiveness on the part of someone.
My local delivery office do not mark anything that comes in unmarked, they allow me to hand stamp the items myself. Benefit of a small local community where the postmistress is a friend.
Just sad that the postal authorities are not doing there utmost to promote the hobby, from which they make millions.
Guess at least I have a couple of placeholders.
Login to Like
this post
08:04:51pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Post office cancels
Mail is not cancelled at the counter of the post office. It is tossed in a bag carted to a mail centre where it is tossed onto a conveyor belt and finds it way through various machines or if bulky tossed by hand into another bag and then shipped to the "local" sorting office where it is then put into its route.
You are lucky that you are allowed to handstamp your letters.
Most of the P O's here are a single clerk operation and the queues are long enough without having to wait for the clerk to handstamp everybody's letters and parcels.
" but when someone has obviously gone to the trouble of putting a variety of stamps on the mail, I reckon it was just sheer vindictiveness on the part of someone."
The only reason that companies like BB have such a variety of stamps is they bought them at less than face value!!
Vindictiveness is not the reason either. It is the fact that the system is faulty, the staff are not trained properly and are under pressure to meet targets. In our area where one delivery person done a single route they now have to do 2 routes.
Time is of the essence and it is much easier when sorting to have a pen stuck behind the ear rather than a handstamp.
Yes it is not nice to get the pen marks across some packages but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avU2aarQUiU
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Login to Like.
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
03 Nov 2021
10:54:13pm
re: Post office cancels
" .... are the stamps now going to be collectible ...."
Everything is collectable if it is of interest to someone.
Barbed wire strands are both collectable and traded.
Classic decorated Tudor era night soil bowls are collectable.
On one of those Antique Appraisal shows a lady presented a
very attractively decorated bowl that she claimed had been
her great grandmother's possession.
The dealer noticed it had been made at some famous foundry in
Great Britain a hundred or more years ago. He suggested that
it be put it in an auction with one or two hundred dollars as
the opening bid.
The woman was very happy about her good find until she was
told that the fancy Salad bowl she had been using for some time
was a night soil container.
No matter what a gadget is, somewhere there is a collector.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Post office cancels
Vic, I would have happily added those nice stamps to my collection disregarding the pen treatment.
From what I know, years ago collectors expressed disappointment with the biro cancellations and Royal Mail readily obliged by designing a new general canceller to be used instead of pens and markers.
This is the one:
Login to Like
this post
re: Post office cancels
I do think in the future we will be collecting pen cancelled stamps. After all they have been postally used which is more some first day covers can claim. In fact it's a 'back to the future' thing as we do see pen cancelled stamps from the late 19th Century and not all of them are fiscals.
Login to Like
this post
02:21:01pm
re: Post office cancels
I take all my SOR mailings to our postal outlet at Shoppers Drug Mart and ask for a CDS which they are happy to do with me standing there chatting with them. I just tell them I have weighed and measured and applied the correct postage and they don't check anymore now that they know me (they only did the first 2-3 times).
Recently, a Regional Manager was there doing an audit and asked if I minded her checking a couple items as part of it. Of course I had no problem saying yes and she was quite happy to find I was honest. In fact, one envelope weighed 32g - putting me in the $1.94 bracket (to US) rather than $1.30 for under 30g and she laughed that I had $1.94 postage attached. She told me "next time if it's less than 5g into the next weight category don't worry about the "extra" postage if you bring it in here to be cancelled - just don't drop it in the mailbox.
I also asked about the pen-mutilations and she told me that postal employees were not permitted to do so, and that a memo had been sent out recently confirming that rule - with the potential for disciplinary action. She said it was never the carriers, but always "certain people" and in "certain areas" during the sorting process - often at the final stage before being given to the carriers. Interestingly, we have a stamp donor (non-SOR) from Quebec who sends a small envelope monthly. 100% of the time in the past 3 years it has arrived with a pen-mutilation. The manager said "that's especially typical for mail going through Quebec".
Dave.
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re: Post office cancels
Dave
i heard about that saboteur: Marine LePen. Notorious on both sides of the Atlantic.
1 Member
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re: Post office cancels
"i heard about that saboteur: Marine LePen. Notorious on both sides of the
Atlantic"
A Christmas gift idea for your postman!
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Post office cancels
"A Christmas gift idea for your postman!"
The US Hunting stamps are cancelled by the hunters signing their names on the stamps in ink. They are not considered faulty because of the signature.
There are so many types of cancellations that I dislike these days, that the biro is way down the list.
There are US Christmas smudged cancellations that completely destroy the stamp. There are the French electronic wavy lines, our Canadian electronic "//////" nonsense , the UK one shown above and the list goes on. Then we have to deal with an increased number of self adhesive stamps that do not soak - most recently the Swedish and Danish ones.
Another subject can be the size of the cancellation. The older Canadian stamps can be found with nice SON cancellations, since those were small enough to fit on the stamp. Today's Canadian cancelers are the size that can only fit on a large souvenir sheet.
If I cannot read the date and the name of town, much of the fun is gone.
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like this post.
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re: Post office cancels
"If I cannot read the date and the name of town, much of the fun is gone."
Agreed! Back in the day, my uncle worked for the local electric and gas company. He'd bring me huge boxes... think large moving box... full of envelopes that people used to mail in their bill payments.
That's what inspired me to start my New Jersey postmark collection as a kid... as I went through those boxes, I kept all the neat looking covers with local town cancels!
Now a days it would be rather dismal to sort through a similar box! When my daughter got married 5 years ago, I asked her to save the wedding response envelopes for me. We did so for our wedding back in 1981, and some of those covers are part of my collection today. It's nice to have old family names on covers in my NJ cancel collection.
She gave me a big bag of the envelopes, all that she carefully opened for me and guess what? Of the 100 covers, there were maybe 5 different cancels... all from the regional sorting centers! I did include one of each type in my collection, since they are indeed New Jersey cancels, but the fun was sucked right out of the exercise!
And that's why I do my post office rally runs today. It's pretty much the only way I'm going to find current town cancels. And someday I may have the only existing example of some of the small offices, especially the CPO contract stations!
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Auctions
re: Post office cancels
Any one on here who has purchased from me has always had circular date stamps cancelled Virginia LPO very rarely do I not get the mail handed cancelled infact I always do it myself .We used to have special bins for mail to be hand sorted but Australia Post stopped using them,so I don't know if they get cancelled again but I try to keep the stamps lower down so if they do cancel the cover again they miss the stamps .
Just my little bit to help members get nice cancelled stamps
Brian
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likes this post.
Login to Like.
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Nov 2021
06:34:38am
re: Post office cancels
" ...m keep the stamps lower down ..."
Covers from Brian are always carefully cancelled as are envelopes
from many other members and dealers.
However, there are a few who, despite being involved with the stamp
collecting hobby or business, will place some beautiful stamps so
close to the right edge that the cancelling devices can almost not
avoid catching the edge and tearing the stamp.
I have often considered scanning their cover and posting it where
everyone can see how stupid and inconsiderate they are.
Surely they know that we collect stamps or intact covers.
How dumb can they be?
This has bothered me for a long time and it feels like diving into
a cool pool on a hot day to finally write it out.
Login to Like
this post