Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
i collect philatelic items from the local area, Dutchess,Columbia and Ulster counties of N.Y. Among other things. i found this at the Albany show Sunday and its perfect. I don't think i ever met Lloyd but i am sure i know relatives, the woods are full of Rockefellers here. 
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Great cover, Phil!
I love that style of artwork from the 40s.
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The artwork on the cover is VERY interesting, and gives some enormous clues as to the provenance of the cover.
First, the locomotive depicted appears to be the City of San Francisco, the Union Pacific M-10004 streamliner:
This locomotive was put into service in June, 1936, and after a rename and a rebuild was decommissioned in June 1939. Americans really loved their trains back then...She was scrapped in 1953.
More germane is the inscription in the illustration:
"Clear The Tracks!", for the United Nations?
The UN Charter was ratified in June, 1945. The conference was held in yes, San Francisco, beginning in April, 1945. This explains the subject of the illustration and makes the CDS quite intriguing, because it predates the conference itself. Was the sender a prospective delegate to the conference? Otherwise, how or why did he obtain this cover for mailing BEFORE the conference? Was he informing his friend Lloyd Rockefeller of his appointment as a delegate? Or, maybe he was simply a donor to the cause and got the cover as a premium for his donation.
Even MORE interesting, I found this on the wiki page for the Rockefellers:
"John Jr., through his son Nelson, purchased and then donated the land upon which sits the United Nations headquarters, in New York, in 1946."
Alas, there is no Lloyd Rockefeller mentioned on the wiki page.
Very nice item!
-Paul
PS: Find-A-Grave says that there is a Lloyd B. Rockefeller buried in a Red Hook cemetery, but it says he died in 1937. There are some obvious errors on the page for Lloyd. For one, Lloyd is shown as one of Catherine Rockefeller's husbands on her gravestone. And, then, it says that Lloyd remained single his entire life. Obscurity rules.
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Thank You Guys...i went to school in Germantown New York ..i was a newbie my parents moved up in 1950..but i realized much later on..most of the kids in my class had surnames of the original Palatines that landed there in 1710. Back then Germantown was East Camp and there was a West Camp on the other side of the Hudson.
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I googled Lloyd Rockefeller...he was born in 1897 ,his address in 1940 was West Market st. Red Hook..a decent area. The origin of the name is German...probably not a relation of the Standard Oil Rockefeller. Lloyds ancestors were probably sharecroppers on the Robert Livingston patent that ran from the river to the Connecticut border. Lloyd had a son Robert,but the cover i have was most likely for Lloyd himself.
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I had another thought on the provenance of the cover.
I wonder if there was a private initiative to raise funds for the effort to form the United Nations. If there was, it would be plausible that volunteers would be supplied with covers like yours, phil, to be sent with an enclosure to their friends and acquaintances, soliciting donations.
Today, the United Nations Foundation, a public charity founded in 1998 has a similar objective. Ted Turner was the genesis of the organization, making a $1 billion contribution.
In northeast North America, it would be natural to target persons with the Rockefeller surname...
-Paul
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Lloyd B Rockefeller was the local Red Hook undertaker for many years as well as running a stamp exchange business. My guess is that this cover was sent by a customer for Lloyd's personal collection or with a payment for the stamp exchange business. The business ran from the mid 1950s until at least the mid 1970s. The Rockefeller that died in 1937 was this Lloyd's father I believe.
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Dreams of the "in utero" UN apparently referred to it as the "Nations United" when Scott #907, "Allegory of Victory” was issued on January 14, 1943:
I have no idea when I first learned of this stamp's existence. I was about 10 when I started collecting stamps. That would have been about 1953. But I had no idea of its history when I re-started my collecting around 1980. That's when I learned that it was issued on my birthday!
Bob
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I'm a Capricorn? Who knew!? If I believed in astrology, I could become President and make decisions about world affairs like Reagan did, with the help of his wife, who read his daily horoscope to him.
boB
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Now, THERE'S a good reason to collect a First-Day Cover!
-Paul
PS, my first reaction was to reach for Scott's Specialized. My next thought was, "Oh, I was born on a Sunday. Oh well."
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The reference to the "United Nations" is not the current UN, formed at San Francisco in 1945. It was Roosevelt's term for the "Allied Nations".
The American President, F.D. Roosevelt, referred to the "Allied Nations" as the "United Nations". The rest of the world against the Axis Powers referred to themselves as the "Allied Nations". In Lord Conrad Black's book "Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Champion of Freedom" he states that Roosevelt uses this term in speeches when referring to the World War that the United States is not yet part of. His effort to support the "Allied Nations" before American entry into the war required skirting certain legal, congressional, and international hurdles. If he had used the term "Allied Nations" including the United States as part of them, he would have cancelled the Neutrality Act.
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
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1945 i collect philatelic items from the local area, Dutchess,Columbia and Ulster counties of N.Y. Among other things. i found this at the Albany show Sunday and its perfect. I don't think i ever met Lloyd but i am sure i know relatives, the woods are full of Rockefellers here.
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re: local cover
Great cover, Phil!
I love that style of artwork from the 40s.
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10:14:25am
re: local cover
The artwork on the cover is VERY interesting, and gives some enormous clues as to the provenance of the cover.
First, the locomotive depicted appears to be the City of San Francisco, the Union Pacific M-10004 streamliner:
This locomotive was put into service in June, 1936, and after a rename and a rebuild was decommissioned in June 1939. Americans really loved their trains back then...She was scrapped in 1953.
More germane is the inscription in the illustration:
"Clear The Tracks!", for the United Nations?
The UN Charter was ratified in June, 1945. The conference was held in yes, San Francisco, beginning in April, 1945. This explains the subject of the illustration and makes the CDS quite intriguing, because it predates the conference itself. Was the sender a prospective delegate to the conference? Otherwise, how or why did he obtain this cover for mailing BEFORE the conference? Was he informing his friend Lloyd Rockefeller of his appointment as a delegate? Or, maybe he was simply a donor to the cause and got the cover as a premium for his donation.
Even MORE interesting, I found this on the wiki page for the Rockefellers:
"John Jr., through his son Nelson, purchased and then donated the land upon which sits the United Nations headquarters, in New York, in 1946."
Alas, there is no Lloyd Rockefeller mentioned on the wiki page.
Very nice item!
-Paul
PS: Find-A-Grave says that there is a Lloyd B. Rockefeller buried in a Red Hook cemetery, but it says he died in 1937. There are some obvious errors on the page for Lloyd. For one, Lloyd is shown as one of Catherine Rockefeller's husbands on her gravestone. And, then, it says that Lloyd remained single his entire life. Obscurity rules.
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re: local cover
Thank You Guys...i went to school in Germantown New York ..i was a newbie my parents moved up in 1950..but i realized much later on..most of the kids in my class had surnames of the original Palatines that landed there in 1710. Back then Germantown was East Camp and there was a West Camp on the other side of the Hudson.
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Auctions
re: local cover
I googled Lloyd Rockefeller...he was born in 1897 ,his address in 1940 was West Market st. Red Hook..a decent area. The origin of the name is German...probably not a relation of the Standard Oil Rockefeller. Lloyds ancestors were probably sharecroppers on the Robert Livingston patent that ran from the river to the Connecticut border. Lloyd had a son Robert,but the cover i have was most likely for Lloyd himself.
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03:17:10pm
re: local cover
I had another thought on the provenance of the cover.
I wonder if there was a private initiative to raise funds for the effort to form the United Nations. If there was, it would be plausible that volunteers would be supplied with covers like yours, phil, to be sent with an enclosure to their friends and acquaintances, soliciting donations.
Today, the United Nations Foundation, a public charity founded in 1998 has a similar objective. Ted Turner was the genesis of the organization, making a $1 billion contribution.
In northeast North America, it would be natural to target persons with the Rockefeller surname...
-Paul
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this post
re: local cover
Lloyd B Rockefeller was the local Red Hook undertaker for many years as well as running a stamp exchange business. My guess is that this cover was sent by a customer for Lloyd's personal collection or with a payment for the stamp exchange business. The business ran from the mid 1950s until at least the mid 1970s. The Rockefeller that died in 1937 was this Lloyd's father I believe.
Login to Like
this post
re: local cover
Dreams of the "in utero" UN apparently referred to it as the "Nations United" when Scott #907, "Allegory of Victory” was issued on January 14, 1943:
I have no idea when I first learned of this stamp's existence. I was about 10 when I started collecting stamps. That would have been about 1953. But I had no idea of its history when I re-started my collecting around 1980. That's when I learned that it was issued on my birthday!
Bob
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re: local cover
I'm a Capricorn? Who knew!? If I believed in astrology, I could become President and make decisions about world affairs like Reagan did, with the help of his wife, who read his daily horoscope to him.
boB
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02:46:37pm
re: local cover
Now, THERE'S a good reason to collect a First-Day Cover!
-Paul
PS, my first reaction was to reach for Scott's Specialized. My next thought was, "Oh, I was born on a Sunday. Oh well."
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this post
re: local cover
The reference to the "United Nations" is not the current UN, formed at San Francisco in 1945. It was Roosevelt's term for the "Allied Nations".
The American President, F.D. Roosevelt, referred to the "Allied Nations" as the "United Nations". The rest of the world against the Axis Powers referred to themselves as the "Allied Nations". In Lord Conrad Black's book "Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Champion of Freedom" he states that Roosevelt uses this term in speeches when referring to the World War that the United States is not yet part of. His effort to support the "Allied Nations" before American entry into the war required skirting certain legal, congressional, and international hurdles. If he had used the term "Allied Nations" including the United States as part of them, he would have cancelled the Neutrality Act.
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
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