Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
This time, he bid several stamps. He bid them early so the shell bidders can inflate the price. It works, they bid higher & higher within 2 days. Once the Shell Bidder is the highest bidder, my friend stops bidding. When the Shell Bidder wins the stamp, he retract. The stamp goes to the 2nd highest bidder (my friend), but he declined. They send him angry messages. The Seller & Shell Bidders were upset known that their scheme didn't work
.
Anyway, I think it's funny how my friend (true bidder) became a Scammer. I wonder how many true bidders became a Scammer on Ebay ?
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01:26:15pm
I'm sure there are sellers out there using "shell" (shill) bidders, but you can't assume that every time you lose an item that there is something "going on". Just because the same person bids fairly often with the same seller doesn't necessarily mean something is going on. Some people probably assume I am a shill because I tend to bid on items from certain dealers I like. It's really tricky to figure out. I'm sure some sellers use shills but we have to find sellers we trust and stick with them. The thing I don't like about E-Bay is the high shipping prices!!
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This situation appears on all sales sites.
My favourite seller is auctioning lots with a starting price of 1 Euro (duration 5 days) and there have been lots for 90-100 Euro catalogue price.
I was very satisfied, because I won some lots at 3-10% (but I think the seller didn't).
In the last period 2 bidders have appeared who overbid me and the final price exceeds 15-20%.
I think they are in agreement with the seller, because these 2 bidders are not listed in the list of buyers who won the bids.
The only method I applied was the last minute bid at the end of the auction.
It has worked so far.
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03:33:47pm
For example, I was just bidding on a stamp I wanted on E-Bay, Newfoundland airmail #12 - The DOX stamp. I bid as high as I was willing to go, $150, a bit less than half CV. It went of a bit over $200, which was reasonable for a collector's bid. Should I assume it was bid up by a friend of the seller or should I accept the fact that it is a very desirable stamp and I didn't bid high enough? Also there were four bids above mine and all were from different bidders. We are all way too fast to assume there is something funny going on when really the problem is that another collector was willing to pay more! If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, well ... it's probably a duck, not a sea gull in disguise!
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05:25:33pm
" ... Some people probably assume I am a shill
because I tend to bid on items from certain
dealers I like. ..."
Likewise, while I'll bid on anyone's lots if
there is something I'd like to have, there
are a few constant sellers who's lots I check
frequently and will bid on lot after lot.
Sometimes, I guess, for the fun of it, I'll
decide to just see how high someone will go.
Especially when I detect some kind of auto
response mechanism. I notice that the that
response comes in at the same span of time
in seconds and at times I think I can figure
out who is bidding on a sellers different
lots from what I think is a time delay .
signature.
Of course I may be fooling myself, but I do
not think so.
When I reach my limit, or exceed it by all
I dare, I drop out.
To some I may fit their profile of a shill
bidder.
But there is one thing lacking; collusion,
connivance, complicity, intrigue, plotting,
a secret understanding and especially
collaboration, words that were
bandied about in the news recently and
apparently poorly understood by some who
should have known better.
But that's a story for another time.
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The Fallacy of auctions is to think you're bidding against other bidders. But, that's what sustains the business, so that's what's promoted in the business model.
Anytime you find yourself bidding against someone else's bid, you're a setting yourself up as a loser. Bid against what the stamp is worth, and what you're willing to pay. Ignore the other bids. There are many fish in the sea. Any one of them will satisfy your appetite. And, you'll see another of the 'one that got away' again. Guaranteed, if you keep your line in the water.
Likewise, anything you can do to prevent someone else from bidding against your bid, you're setting yourself up to be a winner. That's where sniping comes in. Realize that your competition has likely fallen victim to The Fallacy and deprive them of the intelligence you exhibit in your bid.
-Paul
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When I place a bid on feebay I put in what I am willing to pay. Whether the item has 10 days to go, 10 hours to go, 10 minutes to go or 10 seconds to go.
I either win or lose. I don't care either way.
My life does not depend on the outcome.
That's it final, finito, the end, full stop, period.
"Whit’s fur ye’ll no go by ye!
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06:51:19pm
I don't snipe, it's not that I'm an auction purist, I just can't be bothered! If I lose the item because I didn't bid enough, well so be it - I'll have another chance. There was an early US souvenir sheet I really wanted and every time I saw one I put in a $100 bid which was about 1/3 CV. After about 10 tries I got one. Having Snipe is not important to me. Yet, anyway!
Edit: Just curious about this, and I think I saw it happen once. What happens if two "snipers" both put in outrageous bids "just to make sure"? Sounds like fun!!
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Harvey, you're missing the point.
You want to clue your competitors into your opinion of value? Don't snipe.
You want to blind your competitors to your opinion of value? Snipe.
When you snipe, you cancel your competitors' ability to respond to your opinion of value.
Sharing your intelligence with your competitors doesn't make a lot of sense to your wallet.
The person who started this thread talked about pecking up their competitor's bid. That's the response to the intelligence that is being gathered.
Great for discovering a market value distorted by impulsive desire or illegal collusion with the seller, but as a buyer, that's not an area I want to explore.
I just want to minimize my cost.
-Paul
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11:36:06pm
" ... The Fallacy of auctions is to think you're bidding
against other bidders. But, that's what sustains the
business, so that's what's promoted in the business model. ..."
No, Paul, you are missing the fun of trying to out bid another bidder.
It is a lot harder to do now that bidder's names are concealed, but if
you watch the bidding pattern you can often tell, although you may have
to be satisfied with "Bidder #1" or "bidder #2" but it is a person also
trying to out bid the competition. You are missing the fun and mystery
of it.
If I were running a business like Ian is, I would probably bid that way
also since I'd seldom have time, or care, who is bidding. also
By the way, that kind of bidding is easily identified as there is a
limited,
if any response bidding. Business is business. I am not in a stamp
business, I am a hobbyist and the real value to me includes the
enjoyment of the hunt. Years ago I did sell stamps by approvals,
back in he days when I mailed a selection and hoped for the best.
Hard, at times, tedious work for aminimal return and at times
very boring.
A big HUZZAR to those who are successful.
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I think I was misunderstood.
The last minute bidding method does not refer to snip.
When I started the auction from the beginning I came up with a price that exceeded what I was willing to bid.
On the site where I buy from, if you bid at the last minute the deadline is automatically extended by 2 minutes.
The 2 fake bidders overbid and I let them win.
I think the seller got the message - last minute bid is my maximum bid - and I started winning bids again.
Of course my last bid has nothing to do with the bidding level (if it's 2 Euro and I'm willing to bid 6 Euro-that's what I bid).
I think that a satisfactory balance has to be created between sellers and buyers.
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Charlie is right, it should be fun and I much prefer to physically attend an auction rather than online.
There is nothing finer than browsing the lots during viewing, listening to the banter among the bidders, the information you can glean from listening to conversations, who is interested in what lot and catching up with the friends you have made from previous/other auctions.
Each auctioneer has their own specific nuance in their voice so you can tell when the last "book" bid has been reached, whether they are taking bids "off the wall" and of course you can see who you are bidding against.
Most of all you must
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
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There are buyers on ebay that bid based upon what others bid and will ladder of the price if given chance. There is nothing sinister involved. This is one reason sniping is popular.
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I buy a lot of low dollar covers, those with New Jersey postmarks I need for my collection.
I do snipe. Sometimes in person and often through eSnipe.com. There are times I'm sitting in my chair and eBay will text me that something I've marked is ending. If I haven't set up my snipe I will do it manually on my phone, with a few seconds to spare. If I have set it up, I watch as my bid is executed. It is fun. It's like sending a torpedo!
There are times I win, and there are times there's a bigger idiot than me.
There was the time I accidently bid $666 on a cheap cover I meant to bid $6.66! I did it in the last seconds, I watched the end of auction fireworks with three snipe bids. When the dust settled I had won at $8. I was happy and relieved! If I had hit my $6.66 bid correctly I would have lost!
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I have a foreign friend who bid on Ebay a lot, but got frustrated like most bidders. Unable to buy stamps for low price because of Shell Biding. He told me this is a common problem on Ebay. He complained to Ebay, but nothing was done. He told me that Ebay make money every time Sellers make a sell. To me, this is a conflict of interest. My foreign friend got fed up with Ebay & Ebay's Shell Bidders that he decided to become a Scammer. He wanted them to taste their own medicine.
This time, he bid several stamps. He bid them early so the shell bidders can inflate the price. It works, they bid higher & higher within 2 days. Once the Shell Bidder is the highest bidder, my friend stops bidding. When the Shell Bidder wins the stamp, he retract. The stamp goes to the 2nd highest bidder (my friend), but he declined. They send him angry messages. The Seller & Shell Bidders were upset known that their scheme didn't work
.
Anyway, I think it's funny how my friend (true bidder) became a Scammer. I wonder how many true bidders became a Scammer on Ebay ?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Jul 2021
01:26:15pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
I'm sure there are sellers out there using "shell" (shill) bidders, but you can't assume that every time you lose an item that there is something "going on". Just because the same person bids fairly often with the same seller doesn't necessarily mean something is going on. Some people probably assume I am a shill because I tend to bid on items from certain dealers I like. It's really tricky to figure out. I'm sure some sellers use shills but we have to find sellers we trust and stick with them. The thing I don't like about E-Bay is the high shipping prices!!
Login to Like
this post
02:33:04pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
This situation appears on all sales sites.
My favourite seller is auctioning lots with a starting price of 1 Euro (duration 5 days) and there have been lots for 90-100 Euro catalogue price.
I was very satisfied, because I won some lots at 3-10% (but I think the seller didn't).
In the last period 2 bidders have appeared who overbid me and the final price exceeds 15-20%.
I think they are in agreement with the seller, because these 2 bidders are not listed in the list of buyers who won the bids.
The only method I applied was the last minute bid at the end of the auction.
It has worked so far.
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Jul 2021
03:33:47pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
For example, I was just bidding on a stamp I wanted on E-Bay, Newfoundland airmail #12 - The DOX stamp. I bid as high as I was willing to go, $150, a bit less than half CV. It went of a bit over $200, which was reasonable for a collector's bid. Should I assume it was bid up by a friend of the seller or should I accept the fact that it is a very desirable stamp and I didn't bid high enough? Also there were four bids above mine and all were from different bidders. We are all way too fast to assume there is something funny going on when really the problem is that another collector was willing to pay more! If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, well ... it's probably a duck, not a sea gull in disguise!
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
11 Jul 2021
05:25:33pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
" ... Some people probably assume I am a shill
because I tend to bid on items from certain
dealers I like. ..."
Likewise, while I'll bid on anyone's lots if
there is something I'd like to have, there
are a few constant sellers who's lots I check
frequently and will bid on lot after lot.
Sometimes, I guess, for the fun of it, I'll
decide to just see how high someone will go.
Especially when I detect some kind of auto
response mechanism. I notice that the that
response comes in at the same span of time
in seconds and at times I think I can figure
out who is bidding on a sellers different
lots from what I think is a time delay .
signature.
Of course I may be fooling myself, but I do
not think so.
When I reach my limit, or exceed it by all
I dare, I drop out.
To some I may fit their profile of a shill
bidder.
But there is one thing lacking; collusion,
connivance, complicity, intrigue, plotting,
a secret understanding and especially
collaboration, words that were
bandied about in the news recently and
apparently poorly understood by some who
should have known better.
But that's a story for another time.
1 Member
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05:49:15pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
The Fallacy of auctions is to think you're bidding against other bidders. But, that's what sustains the business, so that's what's promoted in the business model.
Anytime you find yourself bidding against someone else's bid, you're a setting yourself up as a loser. Bid against what the stamp is worth, and what you're willing to pay. Ignore the other bids. There are many fish in the sea. Any one of them will satisfy your appetite. And, you'll see another of the 'one that got away' again. Guaranteed, if you keep your line in the water.
Likewise, anything you can do to prevent someone else from bidding against your bid, you're setting yourself up to be a winner. That's where sniping comes in. Realize that your competition has likely fallen victim to The Fallacy and deprive them of the intelligence you exhibit in your bid.
-Paul
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06:14:58pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
When I place a bid on feebay I put in what I am willing to pay. Whether the item has 10 days to go, 10 hours to go, 10 minutes to go or 10 seconds to go.
I either win or lose. I don't care either way.
My life does not depend on the outcome.
That's it final, finito, the end, full stop, period.
"Whit’s fur ye’ll no go by ye!
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Jul 2021
06:51:19pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
I don't snipe, it's not that I'm an auction purist, I just can't be bothered! If I lose the item because I didn't bid enough, well so be it - I'll have another chance. There was an early US souvenir sheet I really wanted and every time I saw one I put in a $100 bid which was about 1/3 CV. After about 10 tries I got one. Having Snipe is not important to me. Yet, anyway!
Edit: Just curious about this, and I think I saw it happen once. What happens if two "snipers" both put in outrageous bids "just to make sure"? Sounds like fun!!
Login to Like
this post
07:48:09pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
Harvey, you're missing the point.
You want to clue your competitors into your opinion of value? Don't snipe.
You want to blind your competitors to your opinion of value? Snipe.
When you snipe, you cancel your competitors' ability to respond to your opinion of value.
Sharing your intelligence with your competitors doesn't make a lot of sense to your wallet.
The person who started this thread talked about pecking up their competitor's bid. That's the response to the intelligence that is being gathered.
Great for discovering a market value distorted by impulsive desire or illegal collusion with the seller, but as a buyer, that's not an area I want to explore.
I just want to minimize my cost.
-Paul
1 Member
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
11 Jul 2021
11:36:06pm
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
" ... The Fallacy of auctions is to think you're bidding
against other bidders. But, that's what sustains the
business, so that's what's promoted in the business model. ..."
No, Paul, you are missing the fun of trying to out bid another bidder.
It is a lot harder to do now that bidder's names are concealed, but if
you watch the bidding pattern you can often tell, although you may have
to be satisfied with "Bidder #1" or "bidder #2" but it is a person also
trying to out bid the competition. You are missing the fun and mystery
of it.
If I were running a business like Ian is, I would probably bid that way
also since I'd seldom have time, or care, who is bidding. also
By the way, that kind of bidding is easily identified as there is a
limited,
if any response bidding. Business is business. I am not in a stamp
business, I am a hobbyist and the real value to me includes the
enjoyment of the hunt. Years ago I did sell stamps by approvals,
back in he days when I mailed a selection and hoped for the best.
Hard, at times, tedious work for aminimal return and at times
very boring.
A big HUZZAR to those who are successful.
1 Member
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01:28:58am
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
I think I was misunderstood.
The last minute bidding method does not refer to snip.
When I started the auction from the beginning I came up with a price that exceeded what I was willing to bid.
On the site where I buy from, if you bid at the last minute the deadline is automatically extended by 2 minutes.
The 2 fake bidders overbid and I let them win.
I think the seller got the message - last minute bid is my maximum bid - and I started winning bids again.
Of course my last bid has nothing to do with the bidding level (if it's 2 Euro and I'm willing to bid 6 Euro-that's what I bid).
I think that a satisfactory balance has to be created between sellers and buyers.
Login to Like
this post
04:27:59am
Auctions - Approvals
re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
Charlie is right, it should be fun and I much prefer to physically attend an auction rather than online.
There is nothing finer than browsing the lots during viewing, listening to the banter among the bidders, the information you can glean from listening to conversations, who is interested in what lot and catching up with the friends you have made from previous/other auctions.
Each auctioneer has their own specific nuance in their voice so you can tell when the last "book" bid has been reached, whether they are taking bids "off the wall" and of course you can see who you are bidding against.
Most of all you must
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
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re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
There are buyers on ebay that bid based upon what others bid and will ladder of the price if given chance. There is nothing sinister involved. This is one reason sniping is popular.
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re: Shell Bidder VS Scammer
I buy a lot of low dollar covers, those with New Jersey postmarks I need for my collection.
I do snipe. Sometimes in person and often through eSnipe.com. There are times I'm sitting in my chair and eBay will text me that something I've marked is ending. If I haven't set up my snipe I will do it manually on my phone, with a few seconds to spare. If I have set it up, I watch as my bid is executed. It is fun. It's like sending a torpedo!
There are times I win, and there are times there's a bigger idiot than me.
There was the time I accidently bid $666 on a cheap cover I meant to bid $6.66! I did it in the last seconds, I watched the end of auction fireworks with three snipe bids. When the dust settled I had won at $8. I was happy and relieved! If I had hit my $6.66 bid correctly I would have lost!
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