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Europe/Great Britain : Machin 1p crimson identification

 

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angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

05 Feb 2021
07:36:49am
I am trying to identify this.

It is clearly a 1p crimson family 2B gravure printing.

It has a straight edge but per specialist catalogs there is no 2B with a straight edge. Is the straight edge a red herring?

The value is thick which would be a T4 using Deegan, The I appears to be a T1-T4 type and not redesigned one. The I is around 2.75mm from base (not 2.5 nor 3.0mm as I measure it) so a "a" position. There were no T4's for 2B.

Help!

Image Not Found

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FrequentFlyer
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05 Feb 2021
07:51:27am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I can't help with the identification, but the stamp does not look crimson to me, more plum -colored.

FF

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sheepshanks
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05 Feb 2021
10:15:57am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

It has probably come from a booklet, but you will have to check through this listing to determine which,
https://adminware.ca/machin/m001.htm

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angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

05 Feb 2021
12:46:09pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I have been through the site and Deegam already. I have been checking booklets (linked into Deegam) and no luck so far. If I accepted it was a trimmed booklet it still does not jive with the Type 4a value and 2B, It does not seem like a shifted CB but no expert

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sheepshanks
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05 Feb 2021
01:22:38pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

What colour is the phosphor response, yellow or blue?

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angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

05 Feb 2021
02:45:41pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

It is not yellow.

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jthurd
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05 Feb 2021
03:47:18pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Dear Al:

I am not sure if this will help or not, but here is a scan of a used multi-value booklet pane which includes what appears to me to be the same 1p pair with 2 bar tagging, with a clear CDS postmark which might help, if indeed it is similar. To the best of my knowledge, it appears in SG Concise as item X844m, issued July 14, 1971. I am not familiar enough with the different positions of the numeral to be able to measure or determine which one it is.

JTH

Image Not Found

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sheepshanks
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05 Feb 2021
04:43:19pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

OK, so next question is the size of the bands. The left band looks to be a broad band, right narrow, so the total should be 8mm or 9.5mm.
They do not appear to be short bands so that gives us less options.

Edit, from the image it looks like stitch holes above the top stamp.

Another edit. Looking more closely I'd say it was cut right and bottom and to me would have come from Booklet DP12.
Maybe Charlie can weigh in with his expert opinion.


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Brechinite

05 Feb 2021
06:13:52pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

The initial item is part of the 10p Booklet FP1 as listed in the Stoneham Catalogue issued on 17/09/79


https://c1f5b0d7-6b6f-4089-be67-be4fd7857ca2.filesusr.com/ugd/6e163c_f6b5702607b04eb8a44e3a8931bcaef3.pdf

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sheepshanks
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05 Feb 2021
07:04:08pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Sorry Ian,but FP1 is a centre band whereas we are looking for two band.

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sheepshanks
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05 Feb 2021
07:27:16pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

This is an image from BB stamps of X844m. Booklets DN49-Dn66.
Image Not Found
Maybe your stamps are the two 1p on the right.
Not sure I can find anything else that fits.

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Brechinite

05 Feb 2021
08:57:25pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I stand corrected.

The Stoneham catalogue doesn't show the pane you suggest. It goes to show you cannot take anything at face value.

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sheepshanks
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05 Feb 2021
09:16:48pm
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

No worries Ian, I'm at a loss really and probably clutching at straws. I assume that the panes are trimmed at some point either before or after being made into booklets. This would account for the straight right edge and the cut bottom perfs appearing on some, but not necessarily all booklets.
I'm waiting for Charlie to chime in with his usual words of wisdom.

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jthurd
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06 Feb 2021
12:00:12am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

In a quick review of 40 used copies of the booklet pane of 2 x 1p and 2 x 1 1/2p which I illustrated above, 3 have straight right-hand edges. There is also some variation in the relative width of the tagging, which is 2 bar in each case.

JTH

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Brechinite

06 Feb 2021
04:58:45am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

You'll find an illustration of the Booklet Pane here:-

https://c1f5b0d7-6b6f-4089-be67-be4fd7857ca2.filesusr.com/ugd/6e163c_88c406e1c3144d9f867a7c704af635e8.pdf

My Earlier post was for folded booklets when in fact the pane comes from a stitched booklet.

The imperf edges are due to poor cutting of the booklet during manufacture.

There is only one Ip Crimson, Centre Band, Left Imperf Edge that was produced by design. There were No 2 Band stamps with Imperf Edges deliberately produced.

This is a list of all the imperf edged stamps for the SG X nos

http://lists.rushstamps.co.uk/re72/p041.pdf

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

06 Feb 2021
07:05:54am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I also feel it must have been trimmed. The trim looks poor. The second question was the Deegam T4 type which is not in 2B. I may ask Gerry (Deegam focal point).

From another source I was told that it is not a Type 4 and if true the images in Deegam need to be improved.

Thanks for the help.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

07 Feb 2021
05:28:54am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

" .... Maybe Charlie can weigh in with his
expert opinion. ...."


The meds and injections are working.
A month ago I would not even readth posts.
Blind as a bat. Well one eye is much better,
the other "somewhat"
Looking at Al's scan first drew me to DP36,
which has the right layout;
One of my four examples has a fairly
straight edge. but, of course, DP36 is a "CB"
and the height of the numeral is quite a bit
different even without trying to measure "mms"
under a magnifying glass.
Now we go to DP14 and note the comments about .
DP's #12A,, 12B, 12C, and the ever elusive DP12J.
their differences are of phosphor, gum, and
screens.
DP12J is "Jet" phosphor.
I hope I got that all right.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
cdj1122
Members Picture


Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

07 Feb 2021
05:56:21am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Oh, there s one thing I wanted to add
about that DP36 with a straight edge.
On Ebay it might be sold as such and
described as a rare 2B RB pane.
And the seller might get away with
that.
However, when I really, really, really
looked close with a strong glass, and
squinted with the bad eye I could see t
he very small inner remains of the perf's.
If the pane had been cut clear of the
perf's it might have qualified as having
a straight edge..
It seems almost guaranteed that a stamp
that has been in production for fifty
years through the hands of different
printers, using different presses, and
methodologies will have unplanned nd
unrecorded variations especially with
such a devoted crew of eagle eyed
affectionados questioning every flyspeck.
Good luck.


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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

07 Feb 2021
06:02:46am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Per Gerry Fisk (Deegam editor), it is a DP12 printed off center and poorly cut. He states it is a Type 1.

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sheepshanks
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07 Feb 2021
10:12:48am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Thanks angore for laying this to rest. At least I got it right at one point only to doubt myself and go off on a tangent, as usual!

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

13 Feb 2021
12:58:09am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

" ..... Now we go to DP14 and note the comments about .
DP's #12A,, 12B, 12C, and the ever elusive DP12J. ....."


Don't forget, you now need to decide which "DP12"
subset it is.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
angore
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Al
Collector, Moderator

13 Feb 2021
05:56:06am
re: Machin 1p crimson identification

From discussions with Gerry, it is a DP12B. The images for the 1p Types are improved in the new Deegam HB5 edition. Using the images in HB4 caused most of the confusion for me as I was trying to identify strictly on Deegam and not using reference stamps. It is important to have nice high resolution images.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
05 Feb 2021
07:36:49am

I am trying to identify this.

It is clearly a 1p crimson family 2B gravure printing.

It has a straight edge but per specialist catalogs there is no 2B with a straight edge. Is the straight edge a red herring?

The value is thick which would be a T4 using Deegan, The I appears to be a T1-T4 type and not redesigned one. The I is around 2.75mm from base (not 2.5 nor 3.0mm as I measure it) so a "a" position. There were no T4's for 2B.

Help!

Image Not Found

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
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FrequentFlyer

05 Feb 2021
07:51:27am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I can't help with the identification, but the stamp does not look crimson to me, more plum -colored.

FF

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sheepshanks

05 Feb 2021
10:15:57am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

It has probably come from a booklet, but you will have to check through this listing to determine which,
https://adminware.ca/machin/m001.htm

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angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
05 Feb 2021
12:46:09pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I have been through the site and Deegam already. I have been checking booklets (linked into Deegam) and no luck so far. If I accepted it was a trimmed booklet it still does not jive with the Type 4a value and 2B, It does not seem like a shifted CB but no expert

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
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sheepshanks

05 Feb 2021
01:22:38pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

What colour is the phosphor response, yellow or blue?

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angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
05 Feb 2021
02:45:41pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

It is not yellow.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
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jthurd

05 Feb 2021
03:47:18pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Dear Al:

I am not sure if this will help or not, but here is a scan of a used multi-value booklet pane which includes what appears to me to be the same 1p pair with 2 bar tagging, with a clear CDS postmark which might help, if indeed it is similar. To the best of my knowledge, it appears in SG Concise as item X844m, issued July 14, 1971. I am not familiar enough with the different positions of the numeral to be able to measure or determine which one it is.

JTH

Image Not Found

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sheepshanks

05 Feb 2021
04:43:19pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

OK, so next question is the size of the bands. The left band looks to be a broad band, right narrow, so the total should be 8mm or 9.5mm.
They do not appear to be short bands so that gives us less options.

Edit, from the image it looks like stitch holes above the top stamp.

Another edit. Looking more closely I'd say it was cut right and bottom and to me would have come from Booklet DP12.
Maybe Charlie can weigh in with his expert opinion.


Like
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Brechinite

05 Feb 2021
06:13:52pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

The initial item is part of the 10p Booklet FP1 as listed in the Stoneham Catalogue issued on 17/09/79


https://c1f5b0d7-6b6f-4089-be67-be4fd7857ca2.filesusr.com/ugd/6e163c_f6b5702607b04eb8a44e3a8931bcaef3.pdf

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
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sheepshanks

05 Feb 2021
07:04:08pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Sorry Ian,but FP1 is a centre band whereas we are looking for two band.

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sheepshanks

05 Feb 2021
07:27:16pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

This is an image from BB stamps of X844m. Booklets DN49-Dn66.
Image Not Found
Maybe your stamps are the two 1p on the right.
Not sure I can find anything else that fits.

Like
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this post
Brechinite

05 Feb 2021
08:57:25pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I stand corrected.

The Stoneham catalogue doesn't show the pane you suggest. It goes to show you cannot take anything at face value.

Like
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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
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sheepshanks

05 Feb 2021
09:16:48pm

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

No worries Ian, I'm at a loss really and probably clutching at straws. I assume that the panes are trimmed at some point either before or after being made into booklets. This would account for the straight right edge and the cut bottom perfs appearing on some, but not necessarily all booklets.
I'm waiting for Charlie to chime in with his usual words of wisdom.

Like
Login to Like
this post
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jthurd

06 Feb 2021
12:00:12am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

In a quick review of 40 used copies of the booklet pane of 2 x 1p and 2 x 1 1/2p which I illustrated above, 3 have straight right-hand edges. There is also some variation in the relative width of the tagging, which is 2 bar in each case.

JTH

Like
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Brechinite

06 Feb 2021
04:58:45am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

You'll find an illustration of the Booklet Pane here:-

https://c1f5b0d7-6b6f-4089-be67-be4fd7857ca2.filesusr.com/ugd/6e163c_88c406e1c3144d9f867a7c704af635e8.pdf

My Earlier post was for folded booklets when in fact the pane comes from a stitched booklet.

The imperf edges are due to poor cutting of the booklet during manufacture.

There is only one Ip Crimson, Centre Band, Left Imperf Edge that was produced by design. There were No 2 Band stamps with Imperf Edges deliberately produced.

This is a list of all the imperf edged stamps for the SG X nos

http://lists.rushstamps.co.uk/re72/p041.pdf

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Members Picture
angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
06 Feb 2021
07:05:54am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

I also feel it must have been trimmed. The trim looks poor. The second question was the Deegam T4 type which is not in 2B. I may ask Gerry (Deegam focal point).

From another source I was told that it is not a Type 4 and if true the images in Deegam need to be improved.

Thanks for the help.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
07 Feb 2021
05:28:54am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

" .... Maybe Charlie can weigh in with his
expert opinion. ...."


The meds and injections are working.
A month ago I would not even readth posts.
Blind as a bat. Well one eye is much better,
the other "somewhat"
Looking at Al's scan first drew me to DP36,
which has the right layout;
One of my four examples has a fairly
straight edge. but, of course, DP36 is a "CB"
and the height of the numeral is quite a bit
different even without trying to measure "mms"
under a magnifying glass.
Now we go to DP14 and note the comments about .
DP's #12A,, 12B, 12C, and the ever elusive DP12J.
their differences are of phosphor, gum, and
screens.
DP12J is "Jet" phosphor.
I hope I got that all right.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
07 Feb 2021
05:56:21am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Oh, there s one thing I wanted to add
about that DP36 with a straight edge.
On Ebay it might be sold as such and
described as a rare 2B RB pane.
And the seller might get away with
that.
However, when I really, really, really
looked close with a strong glass, and
squinted with the bad eye I could see t
he very small inner remains of the perf's.
If the pane had been cut clear of the
perf's it might have qualified as having
a straight edge..
It seems almost guaranteed that a stamp
that has been in production for fifty
years through the hands of different
printers, using different presses, and
methodologies will have unplanned nd
unrecorded variations especially with
such a devoted crew of eagle eyed
affectionados questioning every flyspeck.
Good luck.


Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
07 Feb 2021
06:02:46am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Per Gerry Fisk (Deegam editor), it is a DP12 printed off center and poorly cut. He states it is a Type 1.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
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sheepshanks

07 Feb 2021
10:12:48am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

Thanks angore for laying this to rest. At least I got it right at one point only to doubt myself and go off on a tangent, as usual!

Like
Login to Like
this post

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
13 Feb 2021
12:58:09am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

" ..... Now we go to DP14 and note the comments about .
DP's #12A,, 12B, 12C, and the ever elusive DP12J. ....."


Don't forget, you now need to decide which "DP12"
subset it is.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
13 Feb 2021
05:56:06am

re: Machin 1p crimson identification

From discussions with Gerry, it is a DP12B. The images for the 1p Types are improved in the new Deegam HB5 edition. Using the images in HB4 caused most of the confusion for me as I was trying to identify strictly on Deegam and not using reference stamps. It is important to have nice high resolution images.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
        

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