What we collect!

 

Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps



What we collect!
What we collect!


General Philatelic/Identify This? : Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

 

Author
Postings
stampbaby
Members Picture


25 Jan 2021
03:42:44pm

Auctions
I acquired this Spain (Carlist Stamp) SC#X2 circa. 1881 in a "box Lot" of miscellaneous stamps. It is in pristine condition, MNH, full glossy gum. I have identified the stamp as a "1st Reprint" Carlist, and meeting the criteria to be a "1st Reprint." My concern is that the stamp could be counterfeit. and not meet the Scott's Cat. Value of $525.00. I really don't want to spend over $50.00 in Expertizing fees only to be told it is not genuine. If anyone has experience with these issues pertaining to "Carlist Stamps,Image Not Found" and knowledge on determining forgeries of same, I'd be delighted to learn from your comments.

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

25 Jan 2021
08:15:16pm
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Find descriptions (but no images) here:

Stampforgeries Spain

I read through the descriptions, and I would tentatively judge the stamp as genuine. The most distinguishing features are the white line to the right of where the shading lines of the oval end, near the chin, the distance between the point of the neck and the oval inner frame, and the left side of the oval touching the outer frame line.

-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651

25 Jan 2021
09:14:01pm
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Reprints will not have the same value as the original stamps. Usually they are much lower.

I looked at Michel. They warn of forgeries. They also note reprints/test stamps at about minimal value.

The link provided states that the stamp was issued without gum. The Serrane Guide says that it was.

Reading the description in The Serrane Guide it looks more and more like a forgery. One way to check is the height. The original is 24.5mm high. One of the forgery types is only 23.5mm high. The added tilde in the forgery is a straight line. It will take more research than what I can do to make a final determination.

Like
Login to Like
this post
gerom

26 Jan 2021
06:08:28am
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Very good information (in Spanish) about this stamp.

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

26 Jan 2021
07:57:03am
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Based on George's posting, I retract my judgement above.
Clearly, the stamp in question has the characteristics of the forgery shown at filaposta.

A picture is worth a thousand words!
And, this is why it is important to consult a number of sources when making difficult determinations.
Often, there were multiple forgers of a particular stamp, and of course, the product of each is distinctive from the others.

-Paul

PS, even the forgery depicted at filaposta is distinct from the stamp in question. As michael indicated, the tilde is added over the N in "ESPANA", but in the filaposta image, there is no tilde!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Benque

26 Jan 2021
10:29:34am
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Paul,
"Forgery depicted at filaposta". Do you mean the image on the right, from filaposta, in gerom's post?
reimpreso translates as reprint.

I did not visit the filaposta site.

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

26 Jan 2021
11:16:27am
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

You raise an interesting point, Dennis.

I had NOT made the connection between "impresa" and "reprint"!

So, is the stamp in question a forgery of a reprint because of the tilde? What seems more likely is that there are varieties of the reprint, at least one with the tilde and some without.

The plot thickens!
-Paul

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Benque

26 Jan 2021
03:22:27pm
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Paul,
Sounds right, because as we see in Michael's post, reprints are of minimal value.
Also of note from the same post, is that "the added tilde in the forgery is a straight line"

Seems a waste of the forger's efforts, if it is a forgery of a reprint.

I am looking forward to the final determination on this stamp.

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651

26 Jan 2021
07:00:15pm
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

The image is gerom's post is not the same stamp as the specimen in question. That is the one without the tilde. The stamp in question is the one with the tilde. Both stamps have different characteristics.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Benque

27 Jan 2021
05:45:59am
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Yes, 3 different stamps shown. So, is stampbaby's stamp a forgery, or a reprint with a tilde?

Like
Login to Like
this post
gerom

27 Jan 2021
09:00:43am
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

I made some print-screen from the site "philaposta.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=8974"
My post was intended to convey the address of the site. There is excellent information.
You have to look for the information on the website address and this in case you have the stamp in front of you.
Another print-screen

Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
stampbaby
Members Picture


27 Jan 2021
10:01:35am

Auctions
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

I have reviewed all of your comments with great appreciation, and I thank all of you for your noble research. Based on the comments to this point, I have re-examined the stamp and wish to clarify that on my specimen, the "Tilde" is a straight line above the "N." Also, the stamp has 17 lines in the lower "Spandrel," and the gum pristine, full, glossy, and somewhat bronze in shade; likely due to age. In other words, if it is in fact a forgery, it was printed or re-printed many years ago. Hopefully, additional comments will be forthcoming to add further discussion and/or clarification in this matter. It appears "the jury is still out" on my Carlist stamp.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
SForgCa
Members Picture


30 Jan 2021
03:33:29pm
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Image Not Found
Plates1/2 no tilde


Image Not Found
Plate 4 straight tilde

Image Not Found
Plate 5/6 Tilde with curved ends

Image Not Found
Forgeries
The main features of the left one that matches yours
The right side of the N almost touches the tilde
The lines above the right value are uneven
These 2 are quite good forgeries - there are others and many from Segui - all are well made
The reprints are uncommon and with specific features

Like 
5 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
cdj1122
Members Picture


Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

01 Feb 2021
07:45:26pm
re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

" .... Seems a waste of the forger's efforts,
if it is a forgery of a reprint. ...."


Not all copies of stanps of the period were
created to deceive collectors. Reprints were
sometimes made of otherwise unaffordable
stamp issues to fill packets., thus providing
early collectors that something that could
fill an otherwise empty spot.
I believe that small "errors" were made so
the bogus stamps could be obviously identified.
I suppose that a packet mark's printer may not
have had a genuine stamp in his possession or
the experience to know the difference between
a genuine issue and a simple reprint.
In some countries a valuable coin could be
"Forged"and sold safely as long as the weight of
silver or gold was correct and I believer similar
rules would apply to stamps.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
stampbaby

25 Jan 2021
03:42:44pm

Auctions

I acquired this Spain (Carlist Stamp) SC#X2 circa. 1881 in a "box Lot" of miscellaneous stamps. It is in pristine condition, MNH, full glossy gum. I have identified the stamp as a "1st Reprint" Carlist, and meeting the criteria to be a "1st Reprint." My concern is that the stamp could be counterfeit. and not meet the Scott's Cat. Value of $525.00. I really don't want to spend over $50.00 in Expertizing fees only to be told it is not genuine. If anyone has experience with these issues pertaining to "Carlist Stamps,Image Not Found" and knowledge on determining forgeries of same, I'd be delighted to learn from your comments.

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

25 Jan 2021
08:15:16pm

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Find descriptions (but no images) here:

Stampforgeries Spain

I read through the descriptions, and I would tentatively judge the stamp as genuine. The most distinguishing features are the white line to the right of where the shading lines of the oval end, near the chin, the distance between the point of the neck and the oval inner frame, and the left side of the oval touching the outer frame line.

-Paul

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651

25 Jan 2021
09:14:01pm

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Reprints will not have the same value as the original stamps. Usually they are much lower.

I looked at Michel. They warn of forgeries. They also note reprints/test stamps at about minimal value.

The link provided states that the stamp was issued without gum. The Serrane Guide says that it was.

Reading the description in The Serrane Guide it looks more and more like a forgery. One way to check is the height. The original is 24.5mm high. One of the forgery types is only 23.5mm high. The added tilde in the forgery is a straight line. It will take more research than what I can do to make a final determination.

Like
Login to Like
this post
gerom

26 Jan 2021
06:08:28am

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Very good information (in Spanish) about this stamp.

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

26 Jan 2021
07:57:03am

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Based on George's posting, I retract my judgement above.
Clearly, the stamp in question has the characteristics of the forgery shown at filaposta.

A picture is worth a thousand words!
And, this is why it is important to consult a number of sources when making difficult determinations.
Often, there were multiple forgers of a particular stamp, and of course, the product of each is distinctive from the others.

-Paul

PS, even the forgery depicted at filaposta is distinct from the stamp in question. As michael indicated, the tilde is added over the N in "ESPANA", but in the filaposta image, there is no tilde!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Benque

26 Jan 2021
10:29:34am

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Paul,
"Forgery depicted at filaposta". Do you mean the image on the right, from filaposta, in gerom's post?
reimpreso translates as reprint.

I did not visit the filaposta site.

Like
Login to Like
this post
pigdoc

26 Jan 2021
11:16:27am

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

You raise an interesting point, Dennis.

I had NOT made the connection between "impresa" and "reprint"!

So, is the stamp in question a forgery of a reprint because of the tilde? What seems more likely is that there are varieties of the reprint, at least one with the tilde and some without.

The plot thickens!
-Paul

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Benque

26 Jan 2021
03:22:27pm

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Paul,
Sounds right, because as we see in Michael's post, reprints are of minimal value.
Also of note from the same post, is that "the added tilde in the forgery is a straight line"

Seems a waste of the forger's efforts, if it is a forgery of a reprint.

I am looking forward to the final determination on this stamp.

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651

26 Jan 2021
07:00:15pm

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

The image is gerom's post is not the same stamp as the specimen in question. That is the one without the tilde. The stamp in question is the one with the tilde. Both stamps have different characteristics.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Benque

27 Jan 2021
05:45:59am

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Yes, 3 different stamps shown. So, is stampbaby's stamp a forgery, or a reprint with a tilde?

Like
Login to Like
this post
gerom

27 Jan 2021
09:00:43am

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

I made some print-screen from the site "philaposta.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=8974"
My post was intended to convey the address of the site. There is excellent information.
You have to look for the information on the website address and this in case you have the stamp in front of you.
Another print-screen

Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
stampbaby

27 Jan 2021
10:01:35am

Auctions

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

I have reviewed all of your comments with great appreciation, and I thank all of you for your noble research. Based on the comments to this point, I have re-examined the stamp and wish to clarify that on my specimen, the "Tilde" is a straight line above the "N." Also, the stamp has 17 lines in the lower "Spandrel," and the gum pristine, full, glossy, and somewhat bronze in shade; likely due to age. In other words, if it is in fact a forgery, it was printed or re-printed many years ago. Hopefully, additional comments will be forthcoming to add further discussion and/or clarification in this matter. It appears "the jury is still out" on my Carlist stamp.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
SForgCa

30 Jan 2021
03:33:29pm

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

Image Not Found
Plates1/2 no tilde


Image Not Found
Plate 4 straight tilde

Image Not Found
Plate 5/6 Tilde with curved ends

Image Not Found
Forgeries
The main features of the left one that matches yours
The right side of the N almost touches the tilde
The lines above the right value are uneven
These 2 are quite good forgeries - there are others and many from Segui - all are well made
The reprints are uncommon and with specific features

Like 
5 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 Feb 2021
07:45:26pm

re: Carlist Stamp: Looks Real but Could be a Forgery?

" .... Seems a waste of the forger's efforts,
if it is a forgery of a reprint. ...."


Not all copies of stanps of the period were
created to deceive collectors. Reprints were
sometimes made of otherwise unaffordable
stamp issues to fill packets., thus providing
early collectors that something that could
fill an otherwise empty spot.
I believe that small "errors" were made so
the bogus stamps could be obviously identified.
I suppose that a packet mark's printer may not
have had a genuine stamp in his possession or
the experience to know the difference between
a genuine issue and a simple reprint.
In some countries a valuable coin could be
"Forged"and sold safely as long as the weight of
silver or gold was correct and I believer similar
rules would apply to stamps.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
        

Contact Webmaster | Visitors Online | Unsubscribe Emails | Facebook


User Agreement

Copyright © 2024 Stamporama.com