Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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JC:
Some collectors will take them. Most shun them. It is the collector's choice, of course.
Dealers tend to discount them 40% to 50% off the used catalogue value.
David
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As someone who collects (or at least accumulates) modern postally used stamps - to me they are less desirable than postally used - I want the real postal cancels as much as possible (and can be IDed as real postally used cancels - which can be another tricky area).
Josh
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I tend to put them in the same category as CTO's, never having really seen actual postage use, many covers never even have a delivery address, so while they technically went through the mail system it was inside a larger envelope.
They appear in my collection only until a proper used copy comes along, so used as placeholders really.
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What would be easier to sell? Stamps soaked off of first day covers and sold as used stamps or the first day covers (often addressed) themselves? I would assume that there would actually be a larger market for the stamps themselves, even with their obvious first day cover cancellation. The stamps and covers that I am referring to are not valuable in either condition.
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OK
I always go with the cover over the stamp; you can't recreate a destroyed cover, but you can always remove a stamp from a cover. In addition, you increase the number of potential buyers when you sell as cover, as they can always reduce it.
Of course, you describe this as not valuable in either form, so maybe this is moot.
David
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It is up to each individual collector what they find acceptable to them.
Each individual seller prices them as they deem fit.
First Day covers are bulky and cost more to send through the mail. If I list Fdc's for sale I am often asked to cut them up and just send the stamps to the buyer.
Pricing them as CTO's opens another can of worms as most catalogues only "price" MNH and used.
Most people say used but sometimes the used price is higher than the MNH price and of course sometimes the MNH price is higher than the used price.
So which "price" does the seller base their price on?
The seller lists his price and it is up to the prospective buyer to decide whether they are willing to pay the price or not.
There can be no "hard and fast" rules like a lot of things in the philatelic world it is down to each individual.
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Thanks for the responses. I have put a few into my collection, but I was never happy with those decisions. After seeing what has been said, I will probably stop it altogether.
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For some countries modern postally used are almost impossible to find so used only collectors will accept these rather than have a blank space. This is especially true for smaller countries.
Also it is sometimes very difficult to tell the difference between some CTO/FDC stamps and postally used once they are soaked off the cover or have the gum soaked off the back.
Personally, if I can't find a postally used copy a CTO/FDC cancel is better than nothing. And I can often find collections of these at the greatly reduced prices mentioned above, so I can fill lots of spaces inexpensively.
Some collectors are very fussy about getting circular cancels and will settle for the CTO/FDCs in order to get a neat cancel.
I notice that these types of collections are common, (more so in European auctions) so there are a lot of people buying these cancelled stamps from the postal administrations. What boggles my mind though is that folks are paying face value! Yikes! They must REALLY want those cancels!
So do whatever makes YOU happy. If you'd rather have a CTO or FDC clipping in your album rather than mint or a blank space, well then go for it. And if they make someone else happy, then let them enjoy them in peace. Just be aware that they do have a lower value than postally used as others have mentioned.
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"I notice that these types of collections are common, (more so in European auctions) so there are a lot of people buying these cancelled stamps from the postal administrations."
You will find that cto's from Western European Countries is down to cultural differences or in East European Countries it was a way for them to accquire "hard" currencies.
Remember that philately is worldwide and culture does come into it and what the norm is in North America may not be in say Germany or Japan.
There is no defined right or wrong it is individual preference in what or how you collect.
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We have to remember that one of the main uses of cancelling stamps is so they cannot be reused. The cancel isn't done for artistic reasons. I think in the past to be of fine used quality a stamp should show part of a circular cancel. Nowadays with wavy lines (which I do dislike) and felt tip pen obliterations stamps taken from a first day cover are a good way obtaining a modern "fine" used copy. I'm happy to have them as long as they are priced as used.
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I don't put much stock in catalog prices anyway, because there are so many factors affecting the condition of a stamp, and many more for a used one. In general (albeit with a heavy European bias), I find stamps with these "official first day cancels" and their relatives such as CTOs, "Versandstellenstempel" and the like much less interesting to look at than stamps which have been postally used. However, I also know that it is difficult to obtain postally used stamps with postmarks that show the place and the date in some countries, and many cancellers aren't too inspiring to look at, either. But rules are rules, and while exceptions may be nice, philatelists have to live with the customs and quirks of the postal services. If, say, souvenir sheets are only sold to people who order them (as it is now the case in Germany), their use will always be philatelically inspired at the least. Likewise, semi-postals aren't used often by the general public, and will be hard to find genuinely used. If postmarks are arranged such that the canceller should strike the stamp and not the date part, we've got to accept this as the normal usage. If stamps on parcels are to be cancelled by pen strokes, it's a toad we've got to swallow, as the saying goes ... In such cases, a first day cancel or a CTO may often be the only way for the collector of less than unlimited means to obtain a used stamp that looks nice (if a bit boring).
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: There is no single "golden way", but always some sort of trade-off between esthetics and availability.
-jmh
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I saw these special postmark (sonderstempel) certified by German experts.
I don't know what the value is, compared to a postal cancellation stamp, but I like it and I think it looks nice:
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It all depends on many things ... chiefly among those, on whom you ask. While the special postmark may be "worth more" than the ordinary day-to-day postmark of any major post office, not to speak of a Berlin machine cancel, it will probably pale in comparison to the postmark of an out-of-the way post office on one of the Frisian islands, in particular on an entire envelope or postcard that went through the mails - if you are interested in that sort of thing. Someone interested in the history of the trade unions might be prepared to pay real money (whatever that is) for the stamps with the special postmark, and would not look at the island postmarks twice.
-jmh
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Generally the answer is no. CTO's are nowhere near as valuable as postally used stamps.
BUT, there are all kinds of exceptions.
I saw a FDC of the Great Britain 2009 Design Classics series sell for around GBP 1,000, It had a special signature on it, but was not unique.
Russian stamps from the 30's to mid 50's can fetch twice the full catalog value as CTO's as you are very unlikely to find them as postally used. I collect them and actually prefer the CTO's.
China CTO's from the cultural revolution era are also very expensive, although many of them were printed (from what I know).
As with anything else you can not apply the same blanket rule on all CTO's and FDC's.
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Postally used vs soaked from FDCs. Has anyone assembled a complete collection of a set of postally used Flags issued by the UN? Or a complete set of all UN issues from 2000 to date? I'm still trying to find a postally used #38.
Tad
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I was wondering how others view this idea. I am noticing that some of the used, hard-to-find stamps are showing up as soaked from FDCs. (The first day postmarks are obvious.) Are these seen as true used stamps? Do some/many/most used stamp collectors shy away from these? Or are they seen as one way to obtain that elusive stamp?
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
JC:
Some collectors will take them. Most shun them. It is the collector's choice, of course.
Dealers tend to discount them 40% to 50% off the used catalogue value.
David
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
As someone who collects (or at least accumulates) modern postally used stamps - to me they are less desirable than postally used - I want the real postal cancels as much as possible (and can be IDed as real postally used cancels - which can be another tricky area).
Josh
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Approvals
re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
I tend to put them in the same category as CTO's, never having really seen actual postage use, many covers never even have a delivery address, so while they technically went through the mail system it was inside a larger envelope.
They appear in my collection only until a proper used copy comes along, so used as placeholders really.
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
What would be easier to sell? Stamps soaked off of first day covers and sold as used stamps or the first day covers (often addressed) themselves? I would assume that there would actually be a larger market for the stamps themselves, even with their obvious first day cover cancellation. The stamps and covers that I am referring to are not valuable in either condition.
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
OK
I always go with the cover over the stamp; you can't recreate a destroyed cover, but you can always remove a stamp from a cover. In addition, you increase the number of potential buyers when you sell as cover, as they can always reduce it.
Of course, you describe this as not valuable in either form, so maybe this is moot.
David
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02:23:55pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
It is up to each individual collector what they find acceptable to them.
Each individual seller prices them as they deem fit.
First Day covers are bulky and cost more to send through the mail. If I list Fdc's for sale I am often asked to cut them up and just send the stamps to the buyer.
Pricing them as CTO's opens another can of worms as most catalogues only "price" MNH and used.
Most people say used but sometimes the used price is higher than the MNH price and of course sometimes the MNH price is higher than the used price.
So which "price" does the seller base their price on?
The seller lists his price and it is up to the prospective buyer to decide whether they are willing to pay the price or not.
There can be no "hard and fast" rules like a lot of things in the philatelic world it is down to each individual.
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
Thanks for the responses. I have put a few into my collection, but I was never happy with those decisions. After seeing what has been said, I will probably stop it altogether.
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
For some countries modern postally used are almost impossible to find so used only collectors will accept these rather than have a blank space. This is especially true for smaller countries.
Also it is sometimes very difficult to tell the difference between some CTO/FDC stamps and postally used once they are soaked off the cover or have the gum soaked off the back.
Personally, if I can't find a postally used copy a CTO/FDC cancel is better than nothing. And I can often find collections of these at the greatly reduced prices mentioned above, so I can fill lots of spaces inexpensively.
Some collectors are very fussy about getting circular cancels and will settle for the CTO/FDCs in order to get a neat cancel.
I notice that these types of collections are common, (more so in European auctions) so there are a lot of people buying these cancelled stamps from the postal administrations. What boggles my mind though is that folks are paying face value! Yikes! They must REALLY want those cancels!
So do whatever makes YOU happy. If you'd rather have a CTO or FDC clipping in your album rather than mint or a blank space, well then go for it. And if they make someone else happy, then let them enjoy them in peace. Just be aware that they do have a lower value than postally used as others have mentioned.
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07:58:33pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
"I notice that these types of collections are common, (more so in European auctions) so there are a lot of people buying these cancelled stamps from the postal administrations."
You will find that cto's from Western European Countries is down to cultural differences or in East European Countries it was a way for them to accquire "hard" currencies.
Remember that philately is worldwide and culture does come into it and what the norm is in North America may not be in say Germany or Japan.
There is no defined right or wrong it is individual preference in what or how you collect.
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
We have to remember that one of the main uses of cancelling stamps is so they cannot be reused. The cancel isn't done for artistic reasons. I think in the past to be of fine used quality a stamp should show part of a circular cancel. Nowadays with wavy lines (which I do dislike) and felt tip pen obliterations stamps taken from a first day cover are a good way obtaining a modern "fine" used copy. I'm happy to have them as long as they are priced as used.
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03:58:50am
re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
I don't put much stock in catalog prices anyway, because there are so many factors affecting the condition of a stamp, and many more for a used one. In general (albeit with a heavy European bias), I find stamps with these "official first day cancels" and their relatives such as CTOs, "Versandstellenstempel" and the like much less interesting to look at than stamps which have been postally used. However, I also know that it is difficult to obtain postally used stamps with postmarks that show the place and the date in some countries, and many cancellers aren't too inspiring to look at, either. But rules are rules, and while exceptions may be nice, philatelists have to live with the customs and quirks of the postal services. If, say, souvenir sheets are only sold to people who order them (as it is now the case in Germany), their use will always be philatelically inspired at the least. Likewise, semi-postals aren't used often by the general public, and will be hard to find genuinely used. If postmarks are arranged such that the canceller should strike the stamp and not the date part, we've got to accept this as the normal usage. If stamps on parcels are to be cancelled by pen strokes, it's a toad we've got to swallow, as the saying goes ... In such cases, a first day cancel or a CTO may often be the only way for the collector of less than unlimited means to obtain a used stamp that looks nice (if a bit boring).
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: There is no single "golden way", but always some sort of trade-off between esthetics and availability.
-jmh
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06:19:38am
re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
I saw these special postmark (sonderstempel) certified by German experts.
I don't know what the value is, compared to a postal cancellation stamp, but I like it and I think it looks nice:
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08:25:45am
re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
It all depends on many things ... chiefly among those, on whom you ask. While the special postmark may be "worth more" than the ordinary day-to-day postmark of any major post office, not to speak of a Berlin machine cancel, it will probably pale in comparison to the postmark of an out-of-the way post office on one of the Frisian islands, in particular on an entire envelope or postcard that went through the mails - if you are interested in that sort of thing. Someone interested in the history of the trade unions might be prepared to pay real money (whatever that is) for the stamps with the special postmark, and would not look at the island postmarks twice.
-jmh
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
Generally the answer is no. CTO's are nowhere near as valuable as postally used stamps.
BUT, there are all kinds of exceptions.
I saw a FDC of the Great Britain 2009 Design Classics series sell for around GBP 1,000, It had a special signature on it, but was not unique.
Russian stamps from the 30's to mid 50's can fetch twice the full catalog value as CTO's as you are very unlikely to find them as postally used. I collect them and actually prefer the CTO's.
China CTO's from the cultural revolution era are also very expensive, although many of them were printed (from what I know).
As with anything else you can not apply the same blanket rule on all CTO's and FDC's.
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re: FDC Stamps as Used Stamps
Postally used vs soaked from FDCs. Has anyone assembled a complete collection of a set of postally used Flags issued by the UN? Or a complete set of all UN issues from 2000 to date? I'm still trying to find a postally used #38.
Tad
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