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What we collect!
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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Another comment on early Poland

 

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

12 Dec 2020
11:18:07am
I know I've commented on this before, but what the heck! I get e-mails all the time for sales on stamp sites, I'm sure most of you do as well. I got an ad for a very well known stamp site last evening - no need to mention which one, but it was not E-Bay. I went in to check it out and ended up in Poland, which is one of my main areas. I bought a couple really nice mid value stamps, items at a fair price that I wanted. The one thing I noticed was the large number of early Poland overprints, offered at large prices without certificates. Surely the dealers know that no serious collector would touch these with a 6 foot Big Grin pole. Is it that the sellers don't realize the problem with these stamps? I know certificates cost quite a bit, but if you're trying to get a few hundred, or more, for these stamps, it is probably worth the expense. Unless, of course, they realize it is probably a fake. The dealer I've been using since 1972 charges 5 - 10% CV for this stuff with the comment that it is likely fake.

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cougar
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13 Dec 2020
01:18:23pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

I have resolved this issue for myself by not collecting any overprints - surgarges, officials, OHMS, anything,

But I would understand a collector trying to fill in a void on a album page.
On the bright side of things, if one cannot tell the difference between the real stamp and the fake it should not matter to him which one it is.

The problem will only reappear when many years later the collection needs to be sold (if ever)

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

13 Dec 2020
02:01:47pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

I must admit, I have been tempted to say "to Hell with overprints". But I also have this obligation to fill pages - very stupid of me, I know. So I've compromised in that I refuse to pay huge money for them, which means I will have mostly fakes in those areas. My collection will have to be sold when I am gone. I have no family so my collections will be sold and the results will go to charity. I assume all overprints will be assumed to be forgeries - none of which I will buy at the prices being asked for on most on line sites. Would I spend larger amounts if there were certificates? I wish I was sure that all the experts knew what they were doing!

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okstamps
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13 Dec 2020
09:07:18pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

Had a discussion on this topic nearly two years ago on HipStamp. It got started when one seller was scolded for selling stamps as authentic that very well could have been forgeries (I believe it was early Iranian stamps). The seller being scolded responded by saying that it was the buyer's responsibility to know what was what and that they weren't going to worry about it. I was just getting ready to list some early Albanian stamps for sale that I was pretty sure were forgeries and was going to sell them for virtually nothing just to get rid of them; I would have described them as probable forgeries in their description.

When I posted my intent, the owner of HipStamp responded that I could not sell forgeries on that site. When I responded to him that I would just give them away, he said that I could not do that either, HipStamp could only be used to sell things, not give items away. And then several other HipStamp posters piled on by saying that it was my fault for being ignorant of the items that I was selling, that I needed to be informed or to get out. In the meantime, the seller who was initially being scolded continued on with his sales with no one giving him any grief.

The whole incident upset me enough that I walked away from HipStamp for six or eight months, just shutting down my store.

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that if I was going to sell world-wide material, I would probably never gain enough experience to be able to tell all forgeries and faked overprints and cancels from the real ones, there is just too much to sort through. So I started separating out all stamps that Scott lists as having been forged or having faked overprints or cancellations. When I have the time and the funds, I will have these stamps expertized by the APS. Also, all stamps that appear to be Mint-Never-Hinged and have a listed catalog value of greater than $200, I will have expertized for their gum condition.

Since one of my specialties is Germany, some of the first stamps that I sent off to the APS Expert Committee were some of the first overprinted West Berlin stamps. The mint stamps (low value) came back as having authentic overprints. So now I have a good set of examples to use to authentic additional stamps from this set on my own without having to send them off for an expert opinion.

I also sent one used stamp off from this set to authenticate both the overprint and the cancellation. It came back with the determination that the overprint was forged. When comparing the authentic overprints with the forged overprint, the differences are very noticeable.

In case you are interested, the first stamp pictured below has an authentic overprint while the second used example has the forged overprint.


Image Not Found


Image Not Found


It will take time and some money, but eventually I will be able to build a library of images of authentic and forged stamps to use to authentic such stamps on my own. I add the cost of the authentication to what I would normally price the stamp at, so I don't look at the authentication process as taking money from me that I will never get back. And potential buyers will probably be encouraged to purchase my stamp over other similar examples because it has been authenticated.

The APS Expert Committee that handles these authentications could do a lot better job in sharing the information obtained from all of the stamps that they have examined. A couple of years ago they did allow one to search for the results from past authentications, but the images that come up are only of the certificates that were produced and are so small as to be useless. If they would just store images of the stamps themselves, both authentic and forged, and post them in a searchable listing, that would be very helpful.

For now I have more German (NH gum, cancellations on last Nazi issued stamps, more Berlin overprints), Austrian (NH gum), Fernando Po (first issue), Diego-Suarez (overprints), Cameroun (early French overprints), early Guatemala, one more overprinted Batum stamp and those early Albanian stamps waiting for authentication. Many more will be added to this list as I slowly work through all the material I have for sale.

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

14 Dec 2020
11:10:14am
re: Another comment on early Poland

I think I read somewhere that the cost of an authentication is about $30. Is that accurate? Maybe the thing to do would be to get one of each major type done and then try to compare with that.

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okstamps
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15 Dec 2020
09:12:30am
re: Another comment on early Poland

APS has a sliding scale depending upon the catalog value of the item being examined. As of right now this is their charge per item for APS members:

$200 or less - $20.
$201 - $500 - $25.
$501 - $1000 - $30.
$1000 or more - 3% of current Scott value regardless of condition with a maximum charge of $400.
For items not cataloged or not priced - $30.


For non-APS members the charge per item is as follows:

$200 or less - $40.
$201 - $500 - $45.
$501 - $1000 - $50.
$1000 or more - 5% of current Scott value regardless of condition with a maximum charge of $800.
For items not cataloged or not priced - $50.

The reduced pricing for APS members for using the expertizing service is the main reason that I have maintained my APS membership over the years. A couple items being examined and the APS yearly membership fee is paid.

From the little bit of looking around I did, it appears that other individuals or groups charge about the same as the non-APS member fee schedule.

If you are a member of certain organizations that specialize in one country or one type of stamp, they may provide expertizing service for their members.

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

15 Dec 2020
01:00:04pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

I understand the hesitation regarding overprinted stamps, they can certainly be challenging.

I agree that ‘buyer beware’ is reality but I also think that most people would have a hard time defending it as ‘good’ or ‘healthy’ for the hobby. Making informed buying decisions is important and many of us do what we can to help others in this regard, but throwing out a blanket ‘buyer beware’ and shrug gives license to ethically challenged sellers to take advantage of others. There is no telling how much our hobby has been damaged or lost hobbyists due to the frustration and angry over being taken advantage of due to misrepresented stamps in the marketplace.

Ideally if folks ID a faked overprint (or other) stamp they would either destroy it or permanently mark the back of the stamp. Putting an umarked fake/altered/forged stamp in your album serves to perpetuate future confusion and broken expectations. Also note that having fake/altered/forged stamps in your albums can (and often will) result in a lower valuation of the collection since buyers will be more leery or cautious on the entire thing.
Don

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

15 Dec 2020
01:22:19pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

Good points Don. What I do will probably hurt the value of the collection, but honesty is better in the long run. On pages containing questionable stamps - mostly early Poland and Russia - I usually write the following at the top of the page in pencil: "many forgeries exist". Anyone who is going to sell my collection as part of the estate will hopefully know enough to realize this anyway. There is no way to avoid the possibility of forgeries, so you may as well acknowledge it. My collection has enough good stuff in it that being honest about certain material should not hugely affect the value, I hope!

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

15 Dec 2020
02:32:06pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

Keep in mind that few dealers will invest hours in analyzing a collection if they are approached by family members or collectors for disposition. They are very good at flipping through albums and/or lots and quickly forming an opinion on value. (Dealers make money when they buy material, not when they sell material; so many are very, very good at buying.)

There is value in holding on to faked/forgeries/ altered stamps for collectors since they can be a worthwhile reference group. And of course there are significant collections of forgeries which can command good prices in the marketplace (again as reference material). I recommend keeping fakes/forgeries separate (ideally) or at least very well marked so it can be pulled before the collection is dispositioned.
Don

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pigdoc

15 Dec 2020
03:27:24pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

Don,

To your earlier comment, the one posted at 1PM, what you're speaking to is plain old Greed. The "shrug" is justified, because greed is everywhere, and always has been, in every line of business, anywhere value is being established and money is changing hands.

And, of course, nowhere is greed "healthy" for sustainability of an industry or enterprise, or even a hobby. Not a profound observation, but a recognition that greed is ubiquitous. To think that it can be extirpated, or even dented, in any venue is naive, at best. I owe my career to the existence of greed.

You want to find the corruption, look for the speculative opportunity - the chance of buying low and selling high. You usually don't have to look very far.

To quote P.T. Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute."
And, where there is prey, you'll find predators. It's nature's way.

-Paul




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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

15 Dec 2020
04:55:46pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

For me ‘buyer beware’ seems embarrassingly obvious to anyone other than a child so there is nothing really productive or positive to saying it. As I posted, we fully understand reality.

And if shrugs are justified, and if I am naïve, then why are many of us bothering donating time and money to the hobby? Greed will always win out and we should not be bothered. I find that kind of thinking totally demoralizing. How else should I, as a person who donates 1500+ hours each year to our hobby, take your comment that I am being naïve?

My opinion is that attitudes tend to be contagious and I personally can attest to the value of having a positive attitude and its impact one’s own health. I try to extend a positive attitude towards the hobby, stay productive, and try to give back.
Don

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

15 Dec 2020
05:14:05pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

I promise that my collection will not be thumbed through, as you say! I know it happens a lot, but it is very easy to set it up so that doesn't happen by setting it up before hand with someone you trust. I have many collections. My comic book collection will be given to a dealer I know and trust, the same with my collections of various china and glass - these people have already been contacted. I have been dealing with the same stamp dealer (and his father) since 1972, he has agreed to look at and evaluate my collection since I bought a large amount of it from them anyway. We should all try to set things like this up to make it easy on family members.

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
pigdoc

15 Dec 2020
05:58:01pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

Not to get into a pissing match, Don.

But, you could donate every hour of every day to the hobby, and greed will still be in full flower. That doesn't mean we shouldn't bother, it's just something to avoid, if we can.

I don't think the existence of greed has anything to do with attitude, it's just a natural ancient impulse. Those who operate on greed have an underdeveloped consideration of the feelings of others. Have you ever struggled with setting a price on an item you're selling to a close friend? I certainly have. I like to realize a return on my investments, and I would almost wish to have no connection with the buyer to create conflict between my natural tendency to be generous and my desire for a nice return.

Based on my general experience, there are marketplaces that are more or less susceptible or accessible to those who operate on greed. I think that understanding is a key to limiting one's exposure. Certainly a marketplace like eBay is fertile ground for greed. You can almost sense the vulnerability among aspiring buyers, by relating their bidding behavior to sensible values.

Back to the context of this thread, it doesn't take more than casual observation to begin to understand that speculation (and greed) in the arena of, for example, Third Reich overprints is rife. So, shrewd selection of a marketplace for obtaining such material is well-advised. Maybe that doesn't help the aspiring collector much, but mentoring an accomplished collector - someone who knows exactly what they're looking at - is probably a good place to start.

Yes, it is discouraging to accept that greed lurks everywhere. To me, understanding motivations of people playing markets is an interesting study. And, I look with wonder at people's innovativeness in exploiting opportunity for profit. Sometimes, the insight into marketplaces is genius, if not corrupt. To wit, the writings of Michael Lewis.

-Paul






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Brechinite

15 Dec 2020
06:33:45pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

The root of all evil is money!

I have had various overprinted stamps pass through my hands, some I've kept, some I've sold.

I do not know if they are genuine or forged. I couldn't give a stuff. I do not have the knowledge or the inclination to determine what is genuine. I have better things to spend my time on.

I collect what I want to, display it the way I want to, sell it if I so desire. If nobody buys it then so what my life doesn't depend on selling stamps. Most of my sales are small value, even for the overprints.

Yes Buyer beware. Do you really expect someone selling a vast array of stamps to have the specialist knowledge to tell the difference between genuine and forgery? Considering the vast amount of forgeries out there. There is also a complete lack of information on forgeries in Scott's Gibbons etc etc.

If I was going to buy an expensive stamp (over £50 )I would never buy it over the internet. I would want to physically examine the stamp and purchase it from a reputable dealer.

Yes greed is out there not just from sellers but also buyers. How many buyers out there have told a seller that their item is underpriced or been proud that they have picked up an item cheaply that the seller had mis-described?

Yes Buyer beware. Also Seller beware.

Yes greed is out there in many forms.

Money is the root of all evil.

"
We should all try to set things like this up to make it easy on family members"

.

Harvey your commitment to ease things for your loved ones is commendable.

Personally I do not give a hoot. I couldn't care less what happens to my collections. I do not collect for value I collect for MY enjoyment.

Why will I not care.......because......I'll be dead!

What the eye doesn't see...the heart can't grieve over!

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

15 Dec 2020
07:36:48pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

This is going to sound awful Ian, but really I am doing nothing for loved ones. My wife died six years ago and we had no family, and I am basically the end of mine as well. I have lots of friends and two of them happen to be my executors who know my wishes very well. I hope I have a fairly long time left (knocking on wood), but when the day "arrives" everything will be disposed of and the proceeds split among a few local charities. So naturally I have tried to set a few things up so my "things" bring as much as possible. I honestly think we should all think ahead to a certain extent, not doing so is a bit (trying to think of the right word) selfish!
Edit: I also have someone set up to take my cats!!! That is very important to me!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
Brechinite

15 Dec 2020
08:32:23pm
re: Another comment on early Poland

Harvey:- You have taken steps to ensure your wishes are carried out.

To me it is an individuals right to decide what happens to their collection.

My "kids" have no interest in my collections so my wife knows just to put everything in boxes and send them off to the local auction house.

She may just get enough to put gas in the Ferrari......Rolling On The Floor LaughingRolling On The Floor Laughing

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Dec 2020
11:18:07am

I know I've commented on this before, but what the heck! I get e-mails all the time for sales on stamp sites, I'm sure most of you do as well. I got an ad for a very well known stamp site last evening - no need to mention which one, but it was not E-Bay. I went in to check it out and ended up in Poland, which is one of my main areas. I bought a couple really nice mid value stamps, items at a fair price that I wanted. The one thing I noticed was the large number of early Poland overprints, offered at large prices without certificates. Surely the dealers know that no serious collector would touch these with a 6 foot Big Grin pole. Is it that the sellers don't realize the problem with these stamps? I know certificates cost quite a bit, but if you're trying to get a few hundred, or more, for these stamps, it is probably worth the expense. Unless, of course, they realize it is probably a fake. The dealer I've been using since 1972 charges 5 - 10% CV for this stuff with the comment that it is likely fake.

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cougar

13 Dec 2020
01:18:23pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

I have resolved this issue for myself by not collecting any overprints - surgarges, officials, OHMS, anything,

But I would understand a collector trying to fill in a void on a album page.
On the bright side of things, if one cannot tell the difference between the real stamp and the fake it should not matter to him which one it is.

The problem will only reappear when many years later the collection needs to be sold (if ever)

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Dec 2020
02:01:47pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

I must admit, I have been tempted to say "to Hell with overprints". But I also have this obligation to fill pages - very stupid of me, I know. So I've compromised in that I refuse to pay huge money for them, which means I will have mostly fakes in those areas. My collection will have to be sold when I am gone. I have no family so my collections will be sold and the results will go to charity. I assume all overprints will be assumed to be forgeries - none of which I will buy at the prices being asked for on most on line sites. Would I spend larger amounts if there were certificates? I wish I was sure that all the experts knew what they were doing!

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okstamps

13 Dec 2020
09:07:18pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

Had a discussion on this topic nearly two years ago on HipStamp. It got started when one seller was scolded for selling stamps as authentic that very well could have been forgeries (I believe it was early Iranian stamps). The seller being scolded responded by saying that it was the buyer's responsibility to know what was what and that they weren't going to worry about it. I was just getting ready to list some early Albanian stamps for sale that I was pretty sure were forgeries and was going to sell them for virtually nothing just to get rid of them; I would have described them as probable forgeries in their description.

When I posted my intent, the owner of HipStamp responded that I could not sell forgeries on that site. When I responded to him that I would just give them away, he said that I could not do that either, HipStamp could only be used to sell things, not give items away. And then several other HipStamp posters piled on by saying that it was my fault for being ignorant of the items that I was selling, that I needed to be informed or to get out. In the meantime, the seller who was initially being scolded continued on with his sales with no one giving him any grief.

The whole incident upset me enough that I walked away from HipStamp for six or eight months, just shutting down my store.

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that if I was going to sell world-wide material, I would probably never gain enough experience to be able to tell all forgeries and faked overprints and cancels from the real ones, there is just too much to sort through. So I started separating out all stamps that Scott lists as having been forged or having faked overprints or cancellations. When I have the time and the funds, I will have these stamps expertized by the APS. Also, all stamps that appear to be Mint-Never-Hinged and have a listed catalog value of greater than $200, I will have expertized for their gum condition.

Since one of my specialties is Germany, some of the first stamps that I sent off to the APS Expert Committee were some of the first overprinted West Berlin stamps. The mint stamps (low value) came back as having authentic overprints. So now I have a good set of examples to use to authentic additional stamps from this set on my own without having to send them off for an expert opinion.

I also sent one used stamp off from this set to authenticate both the overprint and the cancellation. It came back with the determination that the overprint was forged. When comparing the authentic overprints with the forged overprint, the differences are very noticeable.

In case you are interested, the first stamp pictured below has an authentic overprint while the second used example has the forged overprint.


Image Not Found


Image Not Found


It will take time and some money, but eventually I will be able to build a library of images of authentic and forged stamps to use to authentic such stamps on my own. I add the cost of the authentication to what I would normally price the stamp at, so I don't look at the authentication process as taking money from me that I will never get back. And potential buyers will probably be encouraged to purchase my stamp over other similar examples because it has been authenticated.

The APS Expert Committee that handles these authentications could do a lot better job in sharing the information obtained from all of the stamps that they have examined. A couple of years ago they did allow one to search for the results from past authentications, but the images that come up are only of the certificates that were produced and are so small as to be useless. If they would just store images of the stamps themselves, both authentic and forged, and post them in a searchable listing, that would be very helpful.

For now I have more German (NH gum, cancellations on last Nazi issued stamps, more Berlin overprints), Austrian (NH gum), Fernando Po (first issue), Diego-Suarez (overprints), Cameroun (early French overprints), early Guatemala, one more overprinted Batum stamp and those early Albanian stamps waiting for authentication. Many more will be added to this list as I slowly work through all the material I have for sale.

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
14 Dec 2020
11:10:14am

re: Another comment on early Poland

I think I read somewhere that the cost of an authentication is about $30. Is that accurate? Maybe the thing to do would be to get one of each major type done and then try to compare with that.

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okstamps

15 Dec 2020
09:12:30am

re: Another comment on early Poland

APS has a sliding scale depending upon the catalog value of the item being examined. As of right now this is their charge per item for APS members:

$200 or less - $20.
$201 - $500 - $25.
$501 - $1000 - $30.
$1000 or more - 3% of current Scott value regardless of condition with a maximum charge of $400.
For items not cataloged or not priced - $30.


For non-APS members the charge per item is as follows:

$200 or less - $40.
$201 - $500 - $45.
$501 - $1000 - $50.
$1000 or more - 5% of current Scott value regardless of condition with a maximum charge of $800.
For items not cataloged or not priced - $50.

The reduced pricing for APS members for using the expertizing service is the main reason that I have maintained my APS membership over the years. A couple items being examined and the APS yearly membership fee is paid.

From the little bit of looking around I did, it appears that other individuals or groups charge about the same as the non-APS member fee schedule.

If you are a member of certain organizations that specialize in one country or one type of stamp, they may provide expertizing service for their members.

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
15 Dec 2020
01:00:04pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

I understand the hesitation regarding overprinted stamps, they can certainly be challenging.

I agree that ‘buyer beware’ is reality but I also think that most people would have a hard time defending it as ‘good’ or ‘healthy’ for the hobby. Making informed buying decisions is important and many of us do what we can to help others in this regard, but throwing out a blanket ‘buyer beware’ and shrug gives license to ethically challenged sellers to take advantage of others. There is no telling how much our hobby has been damaged or lost hobbyists due to the frustration and angry over being taken advantage of due to misrepresented stamps in the marketplace.

Ideally if folks ID a faked overprint (or other) stamp they would either destroy it or permanently mark the back of the stamp. Putting an umarked fake/altered/forged stamp in your album serves to perpetuate future confusion and broken expectations. Also note that having fake/altered/forged stamps in your albums can (and often will) result in a lower valuation of the collection since buyers will be more leery or cautious on the entire thing.
Don

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Dec 2020
01:22:19pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

Good points Don. What I do will probably hurt the value of the collection, but honesty is better in the long run. On pages containing questionable stamps - mostly early Poland and Russia - I usually write the following at the top of the page in pencil: "many forgeries exist". Anyone who is going to sell my collection as part of the estate will hopefully know enough to realize this anyway. There is no way to avoid the possibility of forgeries, so you may as well acknowledge it. My collection has enough good stuff in it that being honest about certain material should not hugely affect the value, I hope!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
15 Dec 2020
02:32:06pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

Keep in mind that few dealers will invest hours in analyzing a collection if they are approached by family members or collectors for disposition. They are very good at flipping through albums and/or lots and quickly forming an opinion on value. (Dealers make money when they buy material, not when they sell material; so many are very, very good at buying.)

There is value in holding on to faked/forgeries/ altered stamps for collectors since they can be a worthwhile reference group. And of course there are significant collections of forgeries which can command good prices in the marketplace (again as reference material). I recommend keeping fakes/forgeries separate (ideally) or at least very well marked so it can be pulled before the collection is dispositioned.
Don

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pigdoc

15 Dec 2020
03:27:24pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

Don,

To your earlier comment, the one posted at 1PM, what you're speaking to is plain old Greed. The "shrug" is justified, because greed is everywhere, and always has been, in every line of business, anywhere value is being established and money is changing hands.

And, of course, nowhere is greed "healthy" for sustainability of an industry or enterprise, or even a hobby. Not a profound observation, but a recognition that greed is ubiquitous. To think that it can be extirpated, or even dented, in any venue is naive, at best. I owe my career to the existence of greed.

You want to find the corruption, look for the speculative opportunity - the chance of buying low and selling high. You usually don't have to look very far.

To quote P.T. Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute."
And, where there is prey, you'll find predators. It's nature's way.

-Paul




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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
15 Dec 2020
04:55:46pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

For me ‘buyer beware’ seems embarrassingly obvious to anyone other than a child so there is nothing really productive or positive to saying it. As I posted, we fully understand reality.

And if shrugs are justified, and if I am naïve, then why are many of us bothering donating time and money to the hobby? Greed will always win out and we should not be bothered. I find that kind of thinking totally demoralizing. How else should I, as a person who donates 1500+ hours each year to our hobby, take your comment that I am being naïve?

My opinion is that attitudes tend to be contagious and I personally can attest to the value of having a positive attitude and its impact one’s own health. I try to extend a positive attitude towards the hobby, stay productive, and try to give back.
Don

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15 Dec 2020
05:14:05pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

I promise that my collection will not be thumbed through, as you say! I know it happens a lot, but it is very easy to set it up so that doesn't happen by setting it up before hand with someone you trust. I have many collections. My comic book collection will be given to a dealer I know and trust, the same with my collections of various china and glass - these people have already been contacted. I have been dealing with the same stamp dealer (and his father) since 1972, he has agreed to look at and evaluate my collection since I bought a large amount of it from them anyway. We should all try to set things like this up to make it easy on family members.

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
pigdoc

15 Dec 2020
05:58:01pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

Not to get into a pissing match, Don.

But, you could donate every hour of every day to the hobby, and greed will still be in full flower. That doesn't mean we shouldn't bother, it's just something to avoid, if we can.

I don't think the existence of greed has anything to do with attitude, it's just a natural ancient impulse. Those who operate on greed have an underdeveloped consideration of the feelings of others. Have you ever struggled with setting a price on an item you're selling to a close friend? I certainly have. I like to realize a return on my investments, and I would almost wish to have no connection with the buyer to create conflict between my natural tendency to be generous and my desire for a nice return.

Based on my general experience, there are marketplaces that are more or less susceptible or accessible to those who operate on greed. I think that understanding is a key to limiting one's exposure. Certainly a marketplace like eBay is fertile ground for greed. You can almost sense the vulnerability among aspiring buyers, by relating their bidding behavior to sensible values.

Back to the context of this thread, it doesn't take more than casual observation to begin to understand that speculation (and greed) in the arena of, for example, Third Reich overprints is rife. So, shrewd selection of a marketplace for obtaining such material is well-advised. Maybe that doesn't help the aspiring collector much, but mentoring an accomplished collector - someone who knows exactly what they're looking at - is probably a good place to start.

Yes, it is discouraging to accept that greed lurks everywhere. To me, understanding motivations of people playing markets is an interesting study. And, I look with wonder at people's innovativeness in exploiting opportunity for profit. Sometimes, the insight into marketplaces is genius, if not corrupt. To wit, the writings of Michael Lewis.

-Paul






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Brechinite

15 Dec 2020
06:33:45pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

The root of all evil is money!

I have had various overprinted stamps pass through my hands, some I've kept, some I've sold.

I do not know if they are genuine or forged. I couldn't give a stuff. I do not have the knowledge or the inclination to determine what is genuine. I have better things to spend my time on.

I collect what I want to, display it the way I want to, sell it if I so desire. If nobody buys it then so what my life doesn't depend on selling stamps. Most of my sales are small value, even for the overprints.

Yes Buyer beware. Do you really expect someone selling a vast array of stamps to have the specialist knowledge to tell the difference between genuine and forgery? Considering the vast amount of forgeries out there. There is also a complete lack of information on forgeries in Scott's Gibbons etc etc.

If I was going to buy an expensive stamp (over £50 )I would never buy it over the internet. I would want to physically examine the stamp and purchase it from a reputable dealer.

Yes greed is out there not just from sellers but also buyers. How many buyers out there have told a seller that their item is underpriced or been proud that they have picked up an item cheaply that the seller had mis-described?

Yes Buyer beware. Also Seller beware.

Yes greed is out there in many forms.

Money is the root of all evil.

"
We should all try to set things like this up to make it easy on family members"

.

Harvey your commitment to ease things for your loved ones is commendable.

Personally I do not give a hoot. I couldn't care less what happens to my collections. I do not collect for value I collect for MY enjoyment.

Why will I not care.......because......I'll be dead!

What the eye doesn't see...the heart can't grieve over!

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Dec 2020
07:36:48pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

This is going to sound awful Ian, but really I am doing nothing for loved ones. My wife died six years ago and we had no family, and I am basically the end of mine as well. I have lots of friends and two of them happen to be my executors who know my wishes very well. I hope I have a fairly long time left (knocking on wood), but when the day "arrives" everything will be disposed of and the proceeds split among a few local charities. So naturally I have tried to set a few things up so my "things" bring as much as possible. I honestly think we should all think ahead to a certain extent, not doing so is a bit (trying to think of the right word) selfish!
Edit: I also have someone set up to take my cats!!! That is very important to me!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
Brechinite

15 Dec 2020
08:32:23pm

re: Another comment on early Poland

Harvey:- You have taken steps to ensure your wishes are carried out.

To me it is an individuals right to decide what happens to their collection.

My "kids" have no interest in my collections so my wife knows just to put everything in boxes and send them off to the local auction house.

She may just get enough to put gas in the Ferrari......Rolling On The Floor LaughingRolling On The Floor Laughing

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