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United States/BOB & Other : Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

 

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

13 Nov 2020
06:29:45pm
In my US Specialized it says that "forgeries exist". I've checked a bit on line and can't find a good explanation. Does anyone out there know an easy way to tell, or should I insist on a certificate? You see examples on E-Bay, but no certificates and the prices seem to be too good to be true. I looked on Worthpoint and the few that they have prices for had certificates. I really don't want album fillers, I'd rather get the "real deal".
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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
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In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

13 Nov 2020
08:31:03pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

"Does anyone out there know an easy way to tell".

If it were an easy way to tell there would be no need for expertization services. Seriously, just trying to decipher the legitimate differences between overprints on the cheaper cousins requires a lot of study and a good eye for incredibly minor differences.

You have small differences in font and spacing that require precise measurements an a good set of reference forgeries.... always assume that an expensive stamp that has been extensively forged is a forgery unless it has a certificate or you feel that your knowledge is sufficient to declare it genuine.

Here is a link to forged stamps of Panama showing a couple of Fournier forged overprints.Take a look at the extensive bibliography of source materials. You need to read them to begin to be able to call yourself an expert. Better yet spend a whole day with google referencing all of the sites that offer bits and pieces of information.

https://stampforgeries.com/forged-stamps-of-panama/

There is no easy way - be it watermarks, perforations to the nearest tenth, colors, litho vs offffset vs engraved, etc. You have to get your hands dirty and spend a lot of time DOING - reading will just confuse you....

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

14 Nov 2020
10:42:27am
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

I will definitely put these on the back burner for a while and concentrate on other things. I ever see one with certification for a fair price I'll consider it. But for now there is enough cheaper stuff to worry about that are pretty much problem free. It seems like any early stamp with an overprint is a potential problem!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

14 Nov 2020
08:37:05pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

These three stamps were only used for 24 days, from June 24 to July 17, 1904, until a supply of U.S. stamps - properly overprinted - could be received from Washington DC.These three issues were heavily forged during their short lifetime as the short supply resulted in a limit on how many could be purchased at one time.

I have personally sent six of these stamps for certification. Only three came back as genuine. Note that PSE will no longer certify Canal Zone issues. To my knowledge, only PF still does. There are only a very few CZ experts left, so turn-around times are long (part of the reason PSE stopped accepting them for certification.

I have two sources whom I have found quite reliable and knowledgeable for CZ issues. They often have stock not listed on their website or can locate it for you. I trust them both.

C&H Stamps
Chris DeVoe
PO Box 855
Dewitt NY 13214-0855
315-449-1820
http://www.canalzonestamps.com

P&E Collectibles
Patrice & Elliot Coleman
PO Box 119
Pound Ridge NY 10576
http://pecollectibles.com/philately-canal-zone-stamps

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

15 Nov 2020
08:54:21am
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

I would eventually really like to have these stamps. Obviously I would not touch them without a certificate, that would be stupid! And I think I would be hesitant even with a certificate. I might just be S.O.L.! With so few produced and so many reproductions it doesn't sound good. Thanks for the help. And thanks for the two contacts, I'll probably get in touch and see what the story is.

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
01:00:26pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Here is an important quote from C&H Stamps, and one of the reasons I buy from Chris without worry. He also has 41 years of experience with CZ issues so he knows what he's looking at.

"Certificates? Why does the stamp need one? The CZ first issue, CZ #1-3, were heavily forged, even during their period of use! Therefore, it is imperative that an authority – usually the American Philatelic Society (APS), Philatelic Foundation (PF) or Professional Stamp Expertisers (PSE) – certify the stamps; they issue certificates of genuineness that include a photo of the stamp, or buy with my gurantee and then obtain a certificate. (2nd best are copies signed by Perry, Bartels and Colman, who used or sold them within days of issuance.) See comments on 1-3 fakes on the listing page. I have also seen a inaccurately identified #15 at auction WITH a cert at auction (June 2012), so watch it. CZ #46-8 and 67 are often hard to identify and certificates are a good idea; I don’t usually get certs for 46-8 and 67, but if you purchase one of these, you may submit them for certificates and, if not genuine, I will always refund the purchase price, cost of certificates and your postage paid to get the cert."

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

15 Nov 2020
01:46:25pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Thanks Bob (uboatnut). I just had a look at C&H Stamps on line. Their prices seem to be very fair and they really seem to know what they are doing. I'm going to hold off for a couple weeks until I get a few more things paid off and then top up my PayPal account. Then I think I'll get in touch and go for one of #1,2 or 3. I really appreciate your help. I have copies of #'s 46 - 48 and they look fine to me, but sometime in the near future certificates might be a good idea. I believe I picked them up from a source I really trust, but it never hurts to check. Thanks for your help!
Added: Just checked the price of #15, it might be a while before that one comes my way! I found two on Worthpoint that sold recently, one for $2750 (certificate) and one for $1600 (guaranteed original), both were mint - a bit out of my budget!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
02:37:46pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

If you want a good set of album pages, take a look at the free download of Bill Weston's excellent Canal Zone pages at https://www.thestampweb.com/albums/free-downloads

Scroll down most of the page to US POSSESSIONS to find the album. You can download either just the pdf and print the pages or, if you have or want the AlbumEasy software that lets you customize the pages (or make any of your own), download the txt file. The AE software itself is also a free download, courtesy of its developer, Clive Levison.

If you decide to go overboard like I did, you can also download my CZ Booklet Panes pages at the same place. Warning - many of these panes are expensive.

Scott numbers do not appear on these pages due to copyright issues with Amos Publishing, but you can add them yourself using the AE software to modify the txt files. Here's an example from my own album with the Scott numbers and some text added.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

15 Nov 2020
03:39:49pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Bob - Your first two pages are incredible. I'm afraid I just used my US Liberty album. I had to set up a spare page or two for the ones missing. It doesn't look anywhere new as fantastic as yours, but it displays the stamps. Out of the first 69 stamps I am missing 1, 2, 3, 15, 18, 20, 64, 65 and 67. I am missing a few from then on including airmails, postage dues and regular officials. I'm not sure whether I will bother with the airmail officials and I am definitely going to stay away from booklet panes. I wish the collection was displayed better, but I might do something about it at a later time. It's one of my newer collections and I didn't give display much thought - the collection just seemed to grow over the last few years! Thanks again for your help.

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
05:40:28pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

I just looked through my duplicates, but didn't have any extras of 1, 2, 3, 15, 18, 20, 64, 65, or 67. Fortunately for you, 18, 20, 64, and 65 are relatively inexpensive.Winking

I took me 2 years to amass all the major Scott numbered CZ issues. I'm still working on the booklet panes. Had three older ones (31c, 56g, and 60b) bought and paid for, but our vaunted US Postal Service lost the registered shipment and the seller had to refund my money.At Wits End Fortunately, he had the shipment insured for full Scott value.

If you decide to attempt to complete the series later, you can always remount your CZ issues on the pages of your choice. Scott makes the Scott U.S. Possessions Album which include spaces for all U.S. Possessions covering the period 1851-1978 (72 Pages). The U.S. Possessions include the Canal Zone, Cuba, Danish West Indies, Guam, Hawaii, Philippines and Puerto Rico.

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

15 Nov 2020
06:51:20pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

That Scott album on US possessions sounds really great, I'll check into it later. My problem would be how much they cover for some countries. For The Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico I originally started with the US periods and then expanded backwards to their earliest stamps, the same for The Canal Zone. My Harris album just carried the US era and for a while that's all I collected. I have a smaller Hawaii collection, haven't found a good price for the early Missionaries yetRolling On The Floor Laughing. I haven't really decided what to do with the Dutch West Indies yet, I have a small collection that I will probably expand. I have no Guam stamps as of yet and have no interest what-so-ever in the Ryukyu Islands. I also cut Cuba and The Philippines off at 1955, where Scott's International Volume three ends. So I will have to make sure this album for US Possessions covers the part of each country I collect before I make a commitment. Again, thanks for the help!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
10:51:15pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Bill Weston also made AlbumEasy pages for (1) The Philippines (2) Guam, and (3) Hawaii.

You can download and view the pdf files from the same site as his Canal Zone pages. They should be complete, but a collector could just stop printing at whatever year they wanted to stop.Thumbs Up



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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

20 Nov 2020
05:07:54pm
re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Image Not Found

I have interest in one Canal Zone stamp (go figger!) and looked high and low to find one actually on cover. Note the stamp was in use for less than a year.

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"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
        

 

Author/Postings

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
13 Nov 2020
06:29:45pm

In my US Specialized it says that "forgeries exist". I've checked a bit on line and can't find a good explanation. Does anyone out there know an easy way to tell, or should I insist on a certificate? You see examples on E-Bay, but no certificates and the prices seem to be too good to be true. I looked on Worthpoint and the few that they have prices for had certificates. I really don't want album fillers, I'd rather get the "real deal".

Like
Login to Like
this post

"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

13 Nov 2020
08:31:03pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

"Does anyone out there know an easy way to tell".

If it were an easy way to tell there would be no need for expertization services. Seriously, just trying to decipher the legitimate differences between overprints on the cheaper cousins requires a lot of study and a good eye for incredibly minor differences.

You have small differences in font and spacing that require precise measurements an a good set of reference forgeries.... always assume that an expensive stamp that has been extensively forged is a forgery unless it has a certificate or you feel that your knowledge is sufficient to declare it genuine.

Here is a link to forged stamps of Panama showing a couple of Fournier forged overprints.Take a look at the extensive bibliography of source materials. You need to read them to begin to be able to call yourself an expert. Better yet spend a whole day with google referencing all of the sites that offer bits and pieces of information.

https://stampforgeries.com/forged-stamps-of-panama/

There is no easy way - be it watermarks, perforations to the nearest tenth, colors, litho vs offffset vs engraved, etc. You have to get your hands dirty and spend a lot of time DOING - reading will just confuse you....

Like 
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www.hipstamp.com/sto ...

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
14 Nov 2020
10:42:27am

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

I will definitely put these on the back burner for a while and concentrate on other things. I ever see one with certification for a fair price I'll consider it. But for now there is enough cheaper stuff to worry about that are pretty much problem free. It seems like any early stamp with an overprint is a potential problem!

Like
Login to Like
this post

"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

14 Nov 2020
08:37:05pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

These three stamps were only used for 24 days, from June 24 to July 17, 1904, until a supply of U.S. stamps - properly overprinted - could be received from Washington DC.These three issues were heavily forged during their short lifetime as the short supply resulted in a limit on how many could be purchased at one time.

I have personally sent six of these stamps for certification. Only three came back as genuine. Note that PSE will no longer certify Canal Zone issues. To my knowledge, only PF still does. There are only a very few CZ experts left, so turn-around times are long (part of the reason PSE stopped accepting them for certification.

I have two sources whom I have found quite reliable and knowledgeable for CZ issues. They often have stock not listed on their website or can locate it for you. I trust them both.

C&H Stamps
Chris DeVoe
PO Box 855
Dewitt NY 13214-0855
315-449-1820
http://www.canalzonestamps.com

P&E Collectibles
Patrice & Elliot Coleman
PO Box 119
Pound Ridge NY 10576
http://pecollectibles.com/philately-canal-zone-stamps

Like
Login to Like
this post

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Nov 2020
08:54:21am

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

I would eventually really like to have these stamps. Obviously I would not touch them without a certificate, that would be stupid! And I think I would be hesitant even with a certificate. I might just be S.O.L.! With so few produced and so many reproductions it doesn't sound good. Thanks for the help. And thanks for the two contacts, I'll probably get in touch and see what the story is.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
01:00:26pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Here is an important quote from C&H Stamps, and one of the reasons I buy from Chris without worry. He also has 41 years of experience with CZ issues so he knows what he's looking at.

"Certificates? Why does the stamp need one? The CZ first issue, CZ #1-3, were heavily forged, even during their period of use! Therefore, it is imperative that an authority – usually the American Philatelic Society (APS), Philatelic Foundation (PF) or Professional Stamp Expertisers (PSE) – certify the stamps; they issue certificates of genuineness that include a photo of the stamp, or buy with my gurantee and then obtain a certificate. (2nd best are copies signed by Perry, Bartels and Colman, who used or sold them within days of issuance.) See comments on 1-3 fakes on the listing page. I have also seen a inaccurately identified #15 at auction WITH a cert at auction (June 2012), so watch it. CZ #46-8 and 67 are often hard to identify and certificates are a good idea; I don’t usually get certs for 46-8 and 67, but if you purchase one of these, you may submit them for certificates and, if not genuine, I will always refund the purchase price, cost of certificates and your postage paid to get the cert."

Like
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Nov 2020
01:46:25pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Thanks Bob (uboatnut). I just had a look at C&H Stamps on line. Their prices seem to be very fair and they really seem to know what they are doing. I'm going to hold off for a couple weeks until I get a few more things paid off and then top up my PayPal account. Then I think I'll get in touch and go for one of #1,2 or 3. I really appreciate your help. I have copies of #'s 46 - 48 and they look fine to me, but sometime in the near future certificates might be a good idea. I believe I picked them up from a source I really trust, but it never hurts to check. Thanks for your help!
Added: Just checked the price of #15, it might be a while before that one comes my way! I found two on Worthpoint that sold recently, one for $2750 (certificate) and one for $1600 (guaranteed original), both were mint - a bit out of my budget!

Like
Login to Like
this post

"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
02:37:46pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

If you want a good set of album pages, take a look at the free download of Bill Weston's excellent Canal Zone pages at https://www.thestampweb.com/albums/free-downloads

Scroll down most of the page to US POSSESSIONS to find the album. You can download either just the pdf and print the pages or, if you have or want the AlbumEasy software that lets you customize the pages (or make any of your own), download the txt file. The AE software itself is also a free download, courtesy of its developer, Clive Levison.

If you decide to go overboard like I did, you can also download my CZ Booklet Panes pages at the same place. Warning - many of these panes are expensive.

Scott numbers do not appear on these pages due to copyright issues with Amos Publishing, but you can add them yourself using the AE software to modify the txt files. Here's an example from my own album with the Scott numbers and some text added.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Nov 2020
03:39:49pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Bob - Your first two pages are incredible. I'm afraid I just used my US Liberty album. I had to set up a spare page or two for the ones missing. It doesn't look anywhere new as fantastic as yours, but it displays the stamps. Out of the first 69 stamps I am missing 1, 2, 3, 15, 18, 20, 64, 65 and 67. I am missing a few from then on including airmails, postage dues and regular officials. I'm not sure whether I will bother with the airmail officials and I am definitely going to stay away from booklet panes. I wish the collection was displayed better, but I might do something about it at a later time. It's one of my newer collections and I didn't give display much thought - the collection just seemed to grow over the last few years! Thanks again for your help.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
05:40:28pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

I just looked through my duplicates, but didn't have any extras of 1, 2, 3, 15, 18, 20, 64, 65, or 67. Fortunately for you, 18, 20, 64, and 65 are relatively inexpensive.Winking

I took me 2 years to amass all the major Scott numbered CZ issues. I'm still working on the booklet panes. Had three older ones (31c, 56g, and 60b) bought and paid for, but our vaunted US Postal Service lost the registered shipment and the seller had to refund my money.At Wits End Fortunately, he had the shipment insured for full Scott value.

If you decide to attempt to complete the series later, you can always remount your CZ issues on the pages of your choice. Scott makes the Scott U.S. Possessions Album which include spaces for all U.S. Possessions covering the period 1851-1978 (72 Pages). The U.S. Possessions include the Canal Zone, Cuba, Danish West Indies, Guam, Hawaii, Philippines and Puerto Rico.

Like
Login to Like
this post

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Nov 2020
06:51:20pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

That Scott album on US possessions sounds really great, I'll check into it later. My problem would be how much they cover for some countries. For The Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico I originally started with the US periods and then expanded backwards to their earliest stamps, the same for The Canal Zone. My Harris album just carried the US era and for a while that's all I collected. I have a smaller Hawaii collection, haven't found a good price for the early Missionaries yetRolling On The Floor Laughing. I haven't really decided what to do with the Dutch West Indies yet, I have a small collection that I will probably expand. I have no Guam stamps as of yet and have no interest what-so-ever in the Ryukyu Islands. I also cut Cuba and The Philippines off at 1955, where Scott's International Volume three ends. So I will have to make sure this album for US Possessions covers the part of each country I collect before I make a commitment. Again, thanks for the help!

Like
Login to Like
this post

"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
uboatnut

15 Nov 2020
10:51:15pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Bill Weston also made AlbumEasy pages for (1) The Philippines (2) Guam, and (3) Hawaii.

You can download and view the pdf files from the same site as his Canal Zone pages. They should be complete, but a collector could just stop printing at whatever year they wanted to stop.Thumbs Up



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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
20 Nov 2020
05:07:54pm

re: Canal Zone #1, 2, 3

Image Not Found

I have interest in one Canal Zone stamp (go figger!) and looked high and low to find one actually on cover. Note the stamp was in use for less than a year.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
        

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