"Am I just really bad at this or is this a common frustration for WF collectors?"
Here’s a resource I have found to be very helpful.
stampsmarter dot com
Washington Franklin Identifier Tool
My biggest challenge with the WFs is the watermarking.. Many times it is near impossible or impossible to determine if there is a watermark at all or if it is single line or double line.
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_LocationsWatermarks.html
W/F watermarks can indeed be challenging; the orientation can lead to some stamp having just a small part of a watermark showing on a stamp. See here for more info
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_OrientationsWatermarks.html
Click on the ‘Popup Tool’ button on the bottom left of the page above and then grab the stamp and move it around to see how the watermark can hardly even appear on some stamps.
Making matters worse, the W/F watermarks can be extraordinarily hard to see even if they are orientated well on a stamp; the yellow and orange inked stamps are notorious difficult even for highly experienced hobbyists.
Tip: W/F watermarks are often only visible during the ‘flash’ that occurs just as you dip the stamp or (more likely) just as the watermark fluid completes drying on the stamp. This requires you to sit there and wait as it dries, waiting for the split second or two that the watermark ‘flashes’. It often takes me 5-6 dipping’s before I convince myself that I saw the watermark. Keep in mind that that only a small part of the watermark, sometimes on the perfs, may be visible. I find that a glass or two of a quality single malt Scotch often helps too.
There are a number of useful tools and an exhaustive amount of ID information on the W/F series on Stamp Smarter. This tool may be helpful in demonstrating the best ID process.
er. http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/SQL_Wash_Frank_ID.html
This is a good visual ID helper
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/washfrank/washfrankmain.html
And given that over 85%-90% of the W/F coils being listed for sale are faked/altered, you must be extremely careful on them. A careful study of the 'source' material (original sheet stamps which are altered to fool hobbyists) a study of this page should greatly assist your understanding
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/WFFakes.html
Don
I own or use a dozen or so identifier tools and I STILL have trouble....often.
You guys scare me a little bit. When I buy from an on-line source should I always double check to see if the stamp is correctly identified? Even if I buy from someone on SOR? I'm afraid I am usually way too trusting!!!
it helps to take at least a cursory look; i've often found mistakes, sometimes just sending the wrong lot; othertimes incorrectly identified.
I think our members are mostly honest, and mostly learned enough to either correctly ID the stamp or indicate they don't know. our auctioneers and approval moderators (Michael and Antonio) often look at lots and, from a scan, can tell if many things are incorrectly IDd. when they do, they require the lister to revise or remove.
of course, buyers also need to be educated; those stamps that are essentially unlikely to be genuine should be considered fakes unless they are accompanied by a reputable cert.
I think ebay represents the broader swath of humanity's good, evil, greedy, and uneducated.
I don't shop much from other sources, like Hip and Delcampe, so I can't comment.
Roy's BuckACover site should be considered utterly reliable.
David
When it comes to Washington-Franklins, there are many that are not too difficult to identify. I created a tool for myself 15 years ago that helps summarize them:
http:www.larsdog.com/stamps/note3B.htm
(I left off the China Paper, Bluish Paper, and rare perforations, but you would want those expertized anyway).
I look not only at the watermark, but also what else has that watermark. For example, in the ONE CENT Franklin, Scott 387 is SL watermark with a handsome catalog value. The DL wmk is also pricey, so I'm not too worried about the watermark being misidentified, but the sheet stamp (374) is only $6.50 mint and 25¢ used. The imperf (383) is even cheaper mint at $2.25, so I would be more worried about perfs added to a 383 or trimmed perfs on a 374 than an intentional mis-identification on the watermark. I will still check it, but I would be MUCH more diligent about checking for alterations.
If a stamp IS altered, it doesn't mean the seller is dishonest. They may have been fooled as well. That's why I'm a believer in working my way up the price scale because the alterations get better and better the more expensive the stamp is. At a certain point it would be risky NOT to get a cert.
I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps. My #331 is from plate number 4989. That plate wasn't used to make 357 or 374, so no need to check watermark or perforation at all.
Lars
Most of my early Wash./Fran. have been either picked up from SOL (last yr. or so) or from a dealer I've been using since 1972. I trust both sources but I suppose I should check a few occasionally, but I absolutely hate watermarks. I hate them so much that I occasionally send them off to my dealer if I have a few that need to be identified. His cost is very reasonable and the father does the checking and he has been in the business for about 50 years. The early US is probably harder to identify than any other group of stamps.
Harvey,
I also dislike watermarks, especially SL watermarks, and especially on yellow stamps. DL watermarks aren't usually too bad. I mostly collect US, so I only have to check foreign watermarks on rare occasions and generally have found them to be as easy as US DL.
But I don't blame you one bit for hating watermarks!
Lars
"...I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps..."
I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one.
Thank you fellow sufferers and WF lovers
I have a tray, watermark fluid, decent eye sight and use these great online tools
My shame is I still mess it up - but as Musicman said.... I will forge on and get it right....some day
I use a Micarelli Guide, a US Specialized Multi-Gauge, watermark fluid and a good glass. No problems.
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada
I use all of David's items, plus The Expert's Book A Practical Guide to the Authentication of Unites States Stamps, Washington/Franklin Issues 1908-1923 by Paul Schmid.
If you are going to work with W/F, I highly recommend this book. It might also be helpful to take a look at his other book, How to Detect Damaged, Altered, and Repaired Stamps.
With W/F there are a lot of other things to look at besides watermarks. But, I agree, watermarks are a pain in the you know what.
"I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one."
mbo:
I've those books, and a few others I use, too. I have over 55 USA referernce books in my library, some are out-of-print, and are real gems of information.
David
I enjoy a good challenge now and then but collecting US Washington Franklin stamps is a bitter sweet obsession. The details and varieties are fascinating yet frustrating at the same time. I went through about 120 envelopes of "categorized" WF's to check on my previous "skills"- I would say a good 10% were totally off. Am I just really bad at this or is this a common frustration for WF collectors?
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
"Am I just really bad at this or is this a common frustration for WF collectors?"
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
Here’s a resource I have found to be very helpful.
stampsmarter dot com
Washington Franklin Identifier Tool
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
My biggest challenge with the WFs is the watermarking.. Many times it is near impossible or impossible to determine if there is a watermark at all or if it is single line or double line.
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_LocationsWatermarks.html
W/F watermarks can indeed be challenging; the orientation can lead to some stamp having just a small part of a watermark showing on a stamp. See here for more info
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_OrientationsWatermarks.html
Click on the ‘Popup Tool’ button on the bottom left of the page above and then grab the stamp and move it around to see how the watermark can hardly even appear on some stamps.
Making matters worse, the W/F watermarks can be extraordinarily hard to see even if they are orientated well on a stamp; the yellow and orange inked stamps are notorious difficult even for highly experienced hobbyists.
Tip: W/F watermarks are often only visible during the ‘flash’ that occurs just as you dip the stamp or (more likely) just as the watermark fluid completes drying on the stamp. This requires you to sit there and wait as it dries, waiting for the split second or two that the watermark ‘flashes’. It often takes me 5-6 dipping’s before I convince myself that I saw the watermark. Keep in mind that that only a small part of the watermark, sometimes on the perfs, may be visible. I find that a glass or two of a quality single malt Scotch often helps too.
There are a number of useful tools and an exhaustive amount of ID information on the W/F series on Stamp Smarter. This tool may be helpful in demonstrating the best ID process.
er. http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/SQL_Wash_Frank_ID.html
This is a good visual ID helper
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/washfrank/washfrankmain.html
And given that over 85%-90% of the W/F coils being listed for sale are faked/altered, you must be extremely careful on them. A careful study of the 'source' material (original sheet stamps which are altered to fool hobbyists) a study of this page should greatly assist your understanding
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/WFFakes.html
Don
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
I own or use a dozen or so identifier tools and I STILL have trouble....often.
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
You guys scare me a little bit. When I buy from an on-line source should I always double check to see if the stamp is correctly identified? Even if I buy from someone on SOR? I'm afraid I am usually way too trusting!!!
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
it helps to take at least a cursory look; i've often found mistakes, sometimes just sending the wrong lot; othertimes incorrectly identified.
I think our members are mostly honest, and mostly learned enough to either correctly ID the stamp or indicate they don't know. our auctioneers and approval moderators (Michael and Antonio) often look at lots and, from a scan, can tell if many things are incorrectly IDd. when they do, they require the lister to revise or remove.
of course, buyers also need to be educated; those stamps that are essentially unlikely to be genuine should be considered fakes unless they are accompanied by a reputable cert.
I think ebay represents the broader swath of humanity's good, evil, greedy, and uneducated.
I don't shop much from other sources, like Hip and Delcampe, so I can't comment.
Roy's BuckACover site should be considered utterly reliable.
David
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
When it comes to Washington-Franklins, there are many that are not too difficult to identify. I created a tool for myself 15 years ago that helps summarize them:
http:www.larsdog.com/stamps/note3B.htm
(I left off the China Paper, Bluish Paper, and rare perforations, but you would want those expertized anyway).
I look not only at the watermark, but also what else has that watermark. For example, in the ONE CENT Franklin, Scott 387 is SL watermark with a handsome catalog value. The DL wmk is also pricey, so I'm not too worried about the watermark being misidentified, but the sheet stamp (374) is only $6.50 mint and 25¢ used. The imperf (383) is even cheaper mint at $2.25, so I would be more worried about perfs added to a 383 or trimmed perfs on a 374 than an intentional mis-identification on the watermark. I will still check it, but I would be MUCH more diligent about checking for alterations.
If a stamp IS altered, it doesn't mean the seller is dishonest. They may have been fooled as well. That's why I'm a believer in working my way up the price scale because the alterations get better and better the more expensive the stamp is. At a certain point it would be risky NOT to get a cert.
I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps. My #331 is from plate number 4989. That plate wasn't used to make 357 or 374, so no need to check watermark or perforation at all.
Lars
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
Most of my early Wash./Fran. have been either picked up from SOL (last yr. or so) or from a dealer I've been using since 1972. I trust both sources but I suppose I should check a few occasionally, but I absolutely hate watermarks. I hate them so much that I occasionally send them off to my dealer if I have a few that need to be identified. His cost is very reasonable and the father does the checking and he has been in the business for about 50 years. The early US is probably harder to identify than any other group of stamps.
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
Harvey,
I also dislike watermarks, especially SL watermarks, and especially on yellow stamps. DL watermarks aren't usually too bad. I mostly collect US, so I only have to check foreign watermarks on rare occasions and generally have found them to be as easy as US DL.
But I don't blame you one bit for hating watermarks!
Lars
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
"...I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps..."
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one.
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
Thank you fellow sufferers and WF lovers
I have a tray, watermark fluid, decent eye sight and use these great online tools
My shame is I still mess it up - but as Musicman said.... I will forge on and get it right....some day
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
I use a Micarelli Guide, a US Specialized Multi-Gauge, watermark fluid and a good glass. No problems.
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
I use all of David's items, plus The Expert's Book A Practical Guide to the Authentication of Unites States Stamps, Washington/Franklin Issues 1908-1923 by Paul Schmid.
If you are going to work with W/F, I highly recommend this book. It might also be helpful to take a look at his other book, How to Detect Damaged, Altered, and Repaired Stamps.
With W/F there are a lot of other things to look at besides watermarks. But, I agree, watermarks are a pain in the you know what.
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
"I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one."
re: Washington Franklin sanity check
mbo:
I've those books, and a few others I use, too. I have over 55 USA referernce books in my library, some are out-of-print, and are real gems of information.
David