Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
10:53:09pm
For instance;
If person "A" hands his friend "B" a sealed letter and says "You are going right past "C"s house, would you drop this in his mail slot for me, or put it in his mail box,"
Is there not,
or perhaps was there once,
a rule or regulation that the envelope must still carry the correct postage.
Of course this is of interest due to many people, hoping to avoid any interference with their "mail in ballot" are considering this kind of personal delivery.
Then;
Depending on the response being in the affirmative, a further issue might arise with some interested party challenging ballots that were cast not having had the proper postage paid.
Please couch any answer suggested or offered in non-partisan terms.
If memory serves me right both queries might be both interesting as well as important in the near future.
While my question is aimed at US rules and regulations, curiosity begs the question be raised as to any similar Canadian or UK ruling, since such mail could be initiated by some US citizen temporarily residing in other nations.
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I thought is was illegal for anyone besides USPS to put anything in the mailboxes (why us in rural areas have separate boxes for Newspapers or Pennysavers). Also think I remember some controversy over someone going around and putting phonebooks in mailboxes...
Josh
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05:26:28pm
"....someone going around and putting phonebooks in mailboxes... ...."
Yes, I recall something like that now.
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Those are still rules. Also, the newspaper boxes cannot be attached to the same post as the US mailbox.
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03:16:41am
There are many subsections that refer to handling ballots,
both outbound and being mailed, and quite a few restrictions
on placement and use of a "U.S. Mail" box.
Also quite a few referring to establishing a Commercial
or Private Mail box, but they seem to apply to the USPS
delivering mail to them. So far nothing about a Public
entity such as the Board of Elections establishing a
public drop box for ballots.
It's two AM and I dozed off at the computer while
searching th USMM.
Maybe tomorrow.
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I seem to vaguely remember that at one time you were required to put a stamp on a UPS parcel if the package contained a letter, as the USPS was the only entity permitted to collect revenue for the delivery of "first class" mail.
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David's post refreshed my mind back to 1975 when I was a new field engineer for Burroughs Corporation. The boss would tell me to go pick up a part from stock at one of our mainframe sites and put it on the next Greyhound bus out to Cedar Rapids or Davenport or somewhere. When I presented my package to the Greyhound agent, he would fill out a bill of lading form, fold it up, and stuff it into an envelope. With his dirty, grubby hands, he would take out a sheet of postage stamps, crudely rip one out of the sheet, lick it, and stick it on the envelope. The stamp was all smudged up with dirt, but then he proceeded to take an ink pad out, load up his rubber stamp with way too much ink, and kill the poor stamp with a juicy blob of ink right before my eyes. As a stamp collector, I would cringe just watching this guy. As David said, the package contained a letter and the post office had to collect its postage for delivery of a letter.
I never saved one of these envelopes cancelled by Greyhound, as we received them also. Now I wish I had.
Linus
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My short answer: NO
I can deliver anything to anyone at my own time and expense. I owe the Postal Service nothing for that.
I can give friends fresh fish in unsealed envelopes, actually bags or take my bags of recycling to the recycling depot without affixing postage on same bags. Good grief.
Did I totally miss the question?
This reminds me of something else: When I go pick mushrooms in the forest and get money for these mushrooms, I am supposed to declare the proceeds to CRA and then pay tax on that! Do I ever report anything like that? No! But I am sure they will also want to know my stamp sale figures so they can tax me on that too. I kind of wonder why I am still being the good generous guy paying for my fishing license in years when I am allowed to keep no fish, while any first nation resident puts a net in the river at any time and kills as many fish as he wants!
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12:53:37pm
" .... I can deliver anything to anyone at my own time and expense. I owe the Postal Service nothing for that. ...."
Deliver it, sure, that is not the question.
Put it into a friend's US Mail box, you may get away with it, as the post office has better things to do, but I suggest you might want to be careful. For instance, if the person is not as much a friend as a mere grumpy acquaintance, who files a complaint with US postal inspectors, things might be different.
The question is about putting ballots in a drop off box outside the election office.
Do those ballots require postage, and can the validity of the vote be challenged by generally partisan ballot watchers, of either party, as not being legal ballots ?
A further question might be who gets all the properly stamped envelopes with the supposedly cancelled stamps that are physically processed and delivered after an election is over ?
That would include whatever was dropped off at the election office that did have uncancelled stamps attached. I never wondered about these aspects of the US election process before, but I hope the envelopes (outer wrappers.) are not simply carted off to the town incinerator
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"Put it into a friend's US Mail box"
We pay for a stamp because this is how we pay a postal employee for the labor, equipment and fuel to deliver our mail to its destination.
If we did not need their labor, equipment and fuel nothing is owed.
What is theirs; the mail box? Then they should have a separate fee for someone using their mailbox to drop off mail in it, but it cannot be the same fee as them delivering the letter. One cent per letter, maybe? At which point I will leave the mail at the doorstep of the person, not in the mailbox.
This reminds me of one joking on the radio how Parks Canada decided to charge visitors for spotting wildlife along highways - $3 for a bear, $1 for deer, $4 for moose and how they were offering group discounts if you saw a large herd of deer, or whatever :-)
And let me tell you a tale from my childhood:
A poor man walked the street and came across a restaurant. There were different dishes being cooked and tasty smelling steam was coming over the cauldrons . The poor man pulled out a chunk of dry bread and held it over the steam till it softened, then he proceeded to eat the bread with a happy expression on his face. The restaurant owner came out and asked the man to pay! But of course the man couldn't as he had no money. The angry owner then grabbed a club as he was going to beat up the poor man.
Wait, the man said. I did not touch any of your dishes; if you want to punish me fairly, you have to now club my shadow.
The restaurant owner was really embarrassed as all people who gathered around to watch the dispute were laughing at him.
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12:49:54am
" ... If we did not need their labor, equipment and fuel
nothing is owed. ..."
Are you making a moral argument,
or are you stating a legal principle.
You may be right on the former, but not so much on the latter.
Laws are passed to give postal administrations the right to enact
workable regulations and rules.
In the USA we have what is called, the Domestic Mail Manual.
It is a very long series of rules and regulations covering
just about every aspect of mail processing.
As such it is the law of the land.
It seems complicated and complex, however the hardest part
of using it is finding the appropriate chapter and verse,
and checking around to ascertain that there is no conflicting
rule or exception to the rue.
The use of mail receptacles is detailed in section 508, and
here is the section that addresses your contention that;
Under certain circumstances, "...nothing is owed. ..."
While it does not address ballot drop boxes directly by name,
it does state the law in your example.
*********************************
508.3.0 Customer Mail Receptacles
3.1.3 Receptacles Used for Mail
Except under 3.2.11, (Newspaper receptacles)
the receptacles described in 3.1.1 ( every
letterbox or other receptacle intended or used for
the receipt or delivery of mail)
may be used only for matter bearing postage.
Other than as permitted by 3.2.10, ( Sunday only
Delivery of Unstamped Newspapers)
or 3.2.11, ( Newspaper Receptacle)
no part of a mail receptacle may be used to deliver
any matter not bearing postage, including items or
matter placed upon, supported by, attached to, hung
from, or inserted into a mail receptacle. Any mailable
matter not bearing postage and found as described above
is subject to the same postage as would be paid if it
were carried by mail.
***************************************************
I guess the original question would depend on a ruling
as to the status of a ballot drop box. If it is ruled to
be a legal "mailbox" postage might be required.
Then different states might have some specific rule
about whether ballots require postage to be paid for
it to be legal, opened and counted.
Well, I do recall some controversy a few years ago
as to how much of a chad could remain connected for
those ballots to be counted, or discarded, so stay tuned ,......
I wonder if collectors might want examples of ballots
from different states, with or without postage attached.
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i'm with Charley on this one.... the mail box is for the mail, with stamps affixed.
other receptacles are for other things
not unlike roads... some may be freely travelled and others only with coin of the realm properly deposited
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"Laws are passed to give postal administrations the right to enact
workable regulations and rules. "
What can I say? Everyone is free to build the walls of his own cell and live inside as a prisoner.
I for the most part do what I feel like doing and what I feel is right.
Keep in mind there is no postage cancelling device at the "mail receptacle" which means any postage that is hand delivered can be reused. In fact the postage can be left loose with the cover.
In other words, I can send the US postal authorities to club their shadows.
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06:00:59pm
Okay.
Good luck with that.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
15 Aug 2020
10:53:09pm
Somewhere in my feeble memory I seem to recall that if someone personally delivers mail to someone else, postage is still due to USPS.
For instance;
If person "A" hands his friend "B" a sealed letter and says "You are going right past "C"s house, would you drop this in his mail slot for me, or put it in his mail box,"
Is there not,
or perhaps was there once,
a rule or regulation that the envelope must still carry the correct postage.
Of course this is of interest due to many people, hoping to avoid any interference with their "mail in ballot" are considering this kind of personal delivery.
Then;
Depending on the response being in the affirmative, a further issue might arise with some interested party challenging ballots that were cast not having had the proper postage paid.
Please couch any answer suggested or offered in non-partisan terms.
If memory serves me right both queries might be both interesting as well as important in the near future.
While my question is aimed at US rules and regulations, curiosity begs the question be raised as to any similar Canadian or UK ruling, since such mail could be initiated by some US citizen temporarily residing in other nations.
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re: Refresh my mind
I thought is was illegal for anyone besides USPS to put anything in the mailboxes (why us in rural areas have separate boxes for Newspapers or Pennysavers). Also think I remember some controversy over someone going around and putting phonebooks in mailboxes...
Josh
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
16 Aug 2020
05:26:28pm
re: Refresh my mind
"....someone going around and putting phonebooks in mailboxes... ...."
Yes, I recall something like that now.
Login to Like
this post
11:47:31pm
re: Refresh my mind
Those are still rules. Also, the newspaper boxes cannot be attached to the same post as the US mailbox.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Aug 2020
03:16:41am
re: Refresh my mind
There are many subsections that refer to handling ballots,
both outbound and being mailed, and quite a few restrictions
on placement and use of a "U.S. Mail" box.
Also quite a few referring to establishing a Commercial
or Private Mail box, but they seem to apply to the USPS
delivering mail to them. So far nothing about a Public
entity such as the Board of Elections establishing a
public drop box for ballots.
It's two AM and I dozed off at the computer while
searching th USMM.
Maybe tomorrow.
Login to Like
this post
re: Refresh my mind
I seem to vaguely remember that at one time you were required to put a stamp on a UPS parcel if the package contained a letter, as the USPS was the only entity permitted to collect revenue for the delivery of "first class" mail.
Login to Like
this post
re: Refresh my mind
David's post refreshed my mind back to 1975 when I was a new field engineer for Burroughs Corporation. The boss would tell me to go pick up a part from stock at one of our mainframe sites and put it on the next Greyhound bus out to Cedar Rapids or Davenport or somewhere. When I presented my package to the Greyhound agent, he would fill out a bill of lading form, fold it up, and stuff it into an envelope. With his dirty, grubby hands, he would take out a sheet of postage stamps, crudely rip one out of the sheet, lick it, and stick it on the envelope. The stamp was all smudged up with dirt, but then he proceeded to take an ink pad out, load up his rubber stamp with way too much ink, and kill the poor stamp with a juicy blob of ink right before my eyes. As a stamp collector, I would cringe just watching this guy. As David said, the package contained a letter and the post office had to collect its postage for delivery of a letter.
I never saved one of these envelopes cancelled by Greyhound, as we received them also. Now I wish I had.
Linus
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Login to Like.
re: Refresh my mind
My short answer: NO
I can deliver anything to anyone at my own time and expense. I owe the Postal Service nothing for that.
I can give friends fresh fish in unsealed envelopes, actually bags or take my bags of recycling to the recycling depot without affixing postage on same bags. Good grief.
Did I totally miss the question?
This reminds me of something else: When I go pick mushrooms in the forest and get money for these mushrooms, I am supposed to declare the proceeds to CRA and then pay tax on that! Do I ever report anything like that? No! But I am sure they will also want to know my stamp sale figures so they can tax me on that too. I kind of wonder why I am still being the good generous guy paying for my fishing license in years when I am allowed to keep no fish, while any first nation resident puts a net in the river at any time and kills as many fish as he wants!
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
18 Aug 2020
12:53:37pm
re: Refresh my mind
" .... I can deliver anything to anyone at my own time and expense. I owe the Postal Service nothing for that. ...."
Deliver it, sure, that is not the question.
Put it into a friend's US Mail box, you may get away with it, as the post office has better things to do, but I suggest you might want to be careful. For instance, if the person is not as much a friend as a mere grumpy acquaintance, who files a complaint with US postal inspectors, things might be different.
The question is about putting ballots in a drop off box outside the election office.
Do those ballots require postage, and can the validity of the vote be challenged by generally partisan ballot watchers, of either party, as not being legal ballots ?
A further question might be who gets all the properly stamped envelopes with the supposedly cancelled stamps that are physically processed and delivered after an election is over ?
That would include whatever was dropped off at the election office that did have uncancelled stamps attached. I never wondered about these aspects of the US election process before, but I hope the envelopes (outer wrappers.) are not simply carted off to the town incinerator
Login to Like
this post
re: Refresh my mind
"Put it into a friend's US Mail box"
We pay for a stamp because this is how we pay a postal employee for the labor, equipment and fuel to deliver our mail to its destination.
If we did not need their labor, equipment and fuel nothing is owed.
What is theirs; the mail box? Then they should have a separate fee for someone using their mailbox to drop off mail in it, but it cannot be the same fee as them delivering the letter. One cent per letter, maybe? At which point I will leave the mail at the doorstep of the person, not in the mailbox.
This reminds me of one joking on the radio how Parks Canada decided to charge visitors for spotting wildlife along highways - $3 for a bear, $1 for deer, $4 for moose and how they were offering group discounts if you saw a large herd of deer, or whatever :-)
And let me tell you a tale from my childhood:
A poor man walked the street and came across a restaurant. There were different dishes being cooked and tasty smelling steam was coming over the cauldrons . The poor man pulled out a chunk of dry bread and held it over the steam till it softened, then he proceeded to eat the bread with a happy expression on his face. The restaurant owner came out and asked the man to pay! But of course the man couldn't as he had no money. The angry owner then grabbed a club as he was going to beat up the poor man.
Wait, the man said. I did not touch any of your dishes; if you want to punish me fairly, you have to now club my shadow.
The restaurant owner was really embarrassed as all people who gathered around to watch the dispute were laughing at him.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
19 Aug 2020
12:49:54am
re: Refresh my mind
" ... If we did not need their labor, equipment and fuel
nothing is owed. ..."
Are you making a moral argument,
or are you stating a legal principle.
You may be right on the former, but not so much on the latter.
Laws are passed to give postal administrations the right to enact
workable regulations and rules.
In the USA we have what is called, the Domestic Mail Manual.
It is a very long series of rules and regulations covering
just about every aspect of mail processing.
As such it is the law of the land.
It seems complicated and complex, however the hardest part
of using it is finding the appropriate chapter and verse,
and checking around to ascertain that there is no conflicting
rule or exception to the rue.
The use of mail receptacles is detailed in section 508, and
here is the section that addresses your contention that;
Under certain circumstances, "...nothing is owed. ..."
While it does not address ballot drop boxes directly by name,
it does state the law in your example.
*********************************
508.3.0 Customer Mail Receptacles
3.1.3 Receptacles Used for Mail
Except under 3.2.11, (Newspaper receptacles)
the receptacles described in 3.1.1 ( every
letterbox or other receptacle intended or used for
the receipt or delivery of mail)
may be used only for matter bearing postage.
Other than as permitted by 3.2.10, ( Sunday only
Delivery of Unstamped Newspapers)
or 3.2.11, ( Newspaper Receptacle)
no part of a mail receptacle may be used to deliver
any matter not bearing postage, including items or
matter placed upon, supported by, attached to, hung
from, or inserted into a mail receptacle. Any mailable
matter not bearing postage and found as described above
is subject to the same postage as would be paid if it
were carried by mail.
***************************************************
I guess the original question would depend on a ruling
as to the status of a ballot drop box. If it is ruled to
be a legal "mailbox" postage might be required.
Then different states might have some specific rule
about whether ballots require postage to be paid for
it to be legal, opened and counted.
Well, I do recall some controversy a few years ago
as to how much of a chad could remain connected for
those ballots to be counted, or discarded, so stay tuned ,......
I wonder if collectors might want examples of ballots
from different states, with or without postage attached.
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like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Refresh my mind
i'm with Charley on this one.... the mail box is for the mail, with stamps affixed.
other receptacles are for other things
not unlike roads... some may be freely travelled and others only with coin of the realm properly deposited
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Refresh my mind
"Laws are passed to give postal administrations the right to enact
workable regulations and rules. "
What can I say? Everyone is free to build the walls of his own cell and live inside as a prisoner.
I for the most part do what I feel like doing and what I feel is right.
Keep in mind there is no postage cancelling device at the "mail receptacle" which means any postage that is hand delivered can be reused. In fact the postage can be left loose with the cover.
In other words, I can send the US postal authorities to club their shadows.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Aug 2020
06:00:59pm
re: Refresh my mind
Okay.
Good luck with that.
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