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Europe/Germany : On shades -- again? #2

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mbo1142
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29 Jul 2020
09:29:15am
Hate to bring this back up again, but Dave started it long time ago, so you can blame him for it. Having problem with the following colors for German Stamps. “Brown-Red” and “Red-Brown”

The following stamps are one or the other, however based on everything I can find the stamps numbered 1-4 are Brown Red, while the stamps numbered 4-7 are Red Brown. BUT on my trained eye, I would think that the Brown-Red would have Brown as the dominant color and on the Red-Brown, Red would be the dominant color. If I am wrong, then I have some stamps in the wrong places and need to make the corrections.




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HockeyNut
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29 Jul 2020
10:33:09am
re: On shades -- again? #2

Very difficult to determine a color from a scan.

But No 1 and 2 are probably RED-BROWN

3 and 4 are going to BROWN-RED

and 5, 6 and 7 are going to BROWN-RED

Do you have a Michel color guide ?

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mbo1142
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29 Jul 2020
11:07:12am
re: On shades -- again? #2

HockeyNut,

Thanks for your response. I agree with you about determining color with scans . However, you have more or less confirmed my suspicions. I also think that 1-2 are Red Brown. I believe that if a stamp is Red Brown, that Red would be the dominant color, and the same for Brown Red. BUT, if you look at Ebay items 372646059491 and 392886119301 or Hip Stamps item 27929602 you may get a better idea of my confusion.

I do not have a Michel color guide, but have one of everything else including Whites encyclopedias. They were not much help.

Again thanks for your help.

Mel

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mbo1142
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29 Jul 2020
12:43:06pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

More muddy,

I asked the seller to ID the colors of the 2 stamps for sale in Ebay item 372646059491 shown below. His answer:

Quote:

"Mel,
I can find no reference in the Scott catalog to the meaning of a two color description. If I use a description of dark blue and blue, I believe that the first word "Dark" acts as adjective. Therefore of "Brown Red" would mean that "brown" is the adjective and "Red" is the underlining color. Thus the stamp on the left is Brown Red and the one on the right is Red Brown.
Dave at Lakeside Stamps
"


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What am I missing? The stamp on the left appears to be more red than brown, thus I would think it is red brown, not brown red.

Anyway, I have a mint and used of each color, so will just put in album and let some one else figure it out.

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HockeyNut
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29 Jul 2020
01:25:26pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

The problem with this stamp is the following :
The original stamp is cataloged as :

Michel 956a KARMINROT bis ROTKARMIN
Michel 956b BRAUNROT
Michel A956 KARMINBRAUN

The colors in my colourguide refer to only BRAUNROT , KARMINROT and BRAUNKARMIN and not KARMINBRAUN

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My colourguide is from 1979 and maybe the colourguides nowadays are more sofisticated
I do not know...

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gerom
29 Jul 2020
02:14:40pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

Hello mel
Michel specialized ed.2011:
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I have Michel Color Guide 38 edition.Tomorow at the sun light I try to made photos with my phone.
The second color is the main color.Red brown...is more brown.

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mbo1142
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29 Jul 2020
03:30:45pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

Gerom,

Thank you for your input. I look forward to your photos.

I have the English version of the Michel Germany specialized (1868-1949 and does not show 956) and the colors in English are for Allied occupation (Soviet zone-general issues) 1948 as follows:

195a - (dark) carmine-red to red-carmine
195b - brown-red
A195 - (bright) carmine-brown to bright red-brown

If those colors don't mess with your eyes, nothing will.

EDIT: Found 956 under Allied Occupation (Joint Issues 1947).

956a same
956b same
A956 carmine-brown (shades)

I also have Michel #179 and A179 Soviet Zone - General Issues (1948) with slightly different shades, but the same problems.


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gerom
30 Jul 2020
08:42:31am
re: On shades -- again? #2

It is very difficult to distinguish between brown-red and karmine-brown without having the stamps and Color Guide under the eyes.
I hope you find it helpful:
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HockeyNut
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30 Jul 2020
09:51:28am
re: On shades -- again? #2

Quote:

"My colourguide is from 1979 and maybe the colourguides nowadays are more sofisticated"



Thanks Gerom,
I already thought so.
Next time when I visit my stampdealer I will order the newest colourguide.
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mbo1142
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30 Jul 2020
10:44:35am
re: On shades -- again? #2

Gerom,

Thank you very much for the color guides. I am now more confused that ever. Braunrot is Brown-Red and to me is the darker color of the 2 stamps in question.

But when you throw in Scott #552 identified by Scott as Brown-Red the whole color match is, at least to me, very confusing when compared to my original image of 1-4

Again thanks for your help. But I will rest in the fact that I have a used and mint of each color and will let it go at that.

Mel

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
30 Jul 2020
12:20:14pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

Colors can be the most frustrating part of stamp collecting. And catalog publishers who list stamps by color have done the hobby no favors.

Color is a subjective sensory perception; it is like asking, ‘which of these chilis is kind of hot?’ Every person tastes differently and every person sees color differently. Of course there can be general consensus of a stamp being blue vs red, but this is not what catalog publishers and hobbyists are doing; they are trying to differentiate between subtle color changes (and with a total lack of standardization of color nomenclature).



Add to this that color is highly dependent upon ambient lighting. We see colors as light waves that are reflected of the surface of a stamp, so obviously the nature of the light reflecting off the stamp depends upon the light source. Hobbyists and publishers 75 to 100 years ago were not using fluorescence or LED lights, they might not have even been using incandescent lights. I do not think that I have ever seen any philatelic reference which bother to define the ambient lighting when describing colors.

The above applies to having the stamp in hand. Adding in a scanned image, software, and then display monitors and you are even farther away from reality. You are judging an image, not a stamp. What could you tell about my television screen if I post an image of it? You could not form an opinion about my TV, you are forming an opinion about my image as shown on your monitor.

Lastly, color guide loss accuracy after only a few years; like stamp (or clothes, or magazines, or even your car paint) the colors change over time. While I can appreciate the willingness to help others, posting images of aa old color guide can mislead folks. Even if the color guide was brand new, there is no telling is the scan is accurate or how an image displays on another person’s computer.

There is only two ways to ID a stamp by color. First develop a large reference collection of the stamp (100s and preferably mint stamps), define a good light source, invest a lot of time in studying the stamps, and develop a good ‘color eye’. Or second, send the stamp to someone who has already done this.
Don

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gerom
30 Jul 2020
12:36:10pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

Mel,
If your Scott # 552 (brown-red) stamp is Mi # 933 you will notice in Michel's catalog that 4 colors are listed and none is brown-red (braun-rot)
My stamp is (I think) dunkel braunlich rot.
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mbo1142
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30 Jul 2020
02:28:53pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

Gerom,

What I was trying to say regarding the 522, is my copy is rot (Red) and no where near Brown-Red. I have been relying way to much on Scott regarding color of German stamps, when I should be using my Michel Germany Specialized. That is going to change fast.

Again thanks for your help.

Mel

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mbo1142
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30 Jul 2020
02:52:05pm
re: On shades -- again? #2

Don,

I agree with you 100% regarding color identification. It is a night mare. That is the reason I am giving up on this particular stamp. But, I will keep on trying to ID colors of stamps even tho it gives me brain freeze.

Thank you for your always exceptional help to people like me who are slow to quite beating a dead horse.

Mel

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