What we collect!
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps


81 visitors online

Off Topic/Non-philatelic Disc. : they see what they want to see !

AuthorPostings
philb
Members Picture

22 Jun 2020
09:08:46pm

Auctions
Some years ago an artist painted a mural on a store wall in town to show the origins of our hardscrabble area. The mural depicted a woman plowing a field..it was great until a week or so ago when someone thought "the woman may have been a slave". Thats all it took..the mural was painted over. I had always thought she was a European settler..but i guess it does not matter anymore.Sad

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"If a man would be anything, he must be himself."
partsguy
Members Picture

22 Jun 2020
10:01:05pm
re: they see what they want to see !

I love history (part of the appeal of old stamps), and I find that part of the value in studying history is to better understand how people viewed the world at that particular time. If it "made history", it was because at the time, it was considered important or noteworthy. Same with the mural Phil describes. Regardless of the alleged circumstances of the woman in the artwork, at the time, someone felt it was an appropriate homage to the hard work that resulted in your little slice of the Hudson Valley.

They say that history is written by the winners, so yes, the historical facts may be tainted to some degree. We may not agree with or support the events of the past, but it's what happened. To obliterate references to those parts of history because it is inconvenient or doesn't mesh with the current social and political climate is tantamount to propaganda. Various regimes have used similar methods to "re-write" or "erase" history over the years, and often for less than altruistic purposes.

TomD


Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
23 Jun 2020
07:30:08am
re: they see what they want to see !

I am confused with the current atmosphere. This started as a protest against the use of force by police which was of course ignited by the horrific murder of George Floyd. I do not think that anyone (other than perhaps the bad cops defense lawyer) would try to justify this murder caught on video. But once again the media and those with agendas have weaponized this current event and now it has morphed into a protest against racism. My opinion is that the use of lethal force by police in the US has been declining over the years. This is based upon data kept and published by The Washington post (a left leaning newspaper) since 2015. Everyone can download this spreadsheet and look at the data themselves
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

Unlike the media’s fanning the flames of hatred and division, the data reveals that the use of lethal force dropped to the lowest levels last year. Last year there were 10 unarmed, non-white people and 19 unarmed white people killed by police. Any deaths are, of course, tragic but why would anyone be surprised with these numbers considering that there were over 50+ million police encounters last year?

We have emptied the mental health facilities into the streets, we have almost 65% of black families raising kids without any fathers in the household, we have large numbers of folks who are in the grips of drug abuse. We are asking the police to play the role of fathers for kids and be drug/mental health counselors on top of their already dangerous job. But the data shows that the number of lethal encounters is an infinitesimally small percentage of all encounters. Yet the moronic media has worked hard to influence many people into thinking that there is an epidemic of lethal police encounters. If the current use of force laws are not consider appropriate then change the state laws, I do not see how knocking over statues or painting over a mural will change the use of force for law enforcement officers.

I do agree that there are real racial issues in the world including the USA. A good example is the obvious racial inequities in our educational system. And these educational system inequities seem to me to be on display recently when protesters vandalized the 54th Massachusetts Regiment Memorial in Boston. I do not understand the point of defacing memorial to the first black volunteer infantry unit in the Civil War as a part of a racial demonstration in 2020. Was this a case of historical ignorance or am I missing the point? Will they be coming for our Confederate stamps and covers next? Having the quality of your kids’ education dictated by your zip code is ludicrous and demands a better solution. But instead of driving a destruction, hatred and division agenda why not work towards improving education choices for parents?

We have stood by and allowed the media, politicians, and certain groups to weaponize yet another current event. Many of the protesters are being brought in from other parts of the country just to cause trouble. The protests are not a grassroots, organic events but rather highly organized with people who have destructive agendas. These are the seeds we have sown by allowing ourselves to be influenced by media and politicians. When did it become acceptable to be destructive as opposed to being constructive? When did it become acceptable to use identity politics to divide us all?

As I said in the COVID thread it does not matter what the current event is; racism, viruses, climate change, sexual abuse. Those with agendas have hijacked these important issues and are using fear, hatred and division to control the narrative and news cycles. It is up to people with common sense and those capable of independent thinking to stop this madness. We need to stop supporting media outlets, let advertisers know that you are not supporting them, and tell your politicians your opinion(s). Or we can just be lemmings and allow ourselves to be feed highly spun information by those with agendas.
Don

Like 
12 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
23 Jun 2020
08:34:15am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

It is the hypocrisy nowadays.

Lewis Hamilton the Formula One racing driver and World Champion, paid £40 million by Mercedes, has been supporting BLM quite voluably yet Mercedes had used around 6,000 forced labour "slaves" during the 1940's.

A classic example of do as I say rather than what I do.

One other thing that is never mentioned is that not all slavers were white.

My philosophy is treat other people the way you would like to be treated yourself.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
ikeyPikey
Members Picture

23 Jun 2020
09:37:54am
re: they see what they want to see !

Perhaps The Plowing Woman was a widow, whose husband died suppressing armed treason ...

Yes, That Armed Treason.

Mercedes is making reparations ... that is supposed to be a good thing.

Meanwhile, here is Melinda's Really Stupid Idea:

Quote:

"“One of the reasons we are so involved in this is that you don’t want the first vaccines to go to the highest bidding countries,” Melinda Gates explained. “There are 60 million healthcare workers [around the world]. They deserve to get the vaccine first. And then you have to start to tier from there, based on the countries and the populations. Here in the U.S., it’s going to be Black people who really should get it first and many indigenous people, as well as people with underlying symptoms, and then elderly people.”"



1) Asking white people to stand aside while black & indigenous people get the vaccine might, uh, impact the November election.

2) Asking black people to step-up for the first vaccines, which will (as compared to later versions) be less effective & come with more side-effects ... TUSKEGEE !@#$%! TUSKEGEE !@#$%!

Q/ What does she see ? Is she *trying* to start a race war ?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Like
Login to Like
this post

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
23 Jun 2020
10:59:39am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"Mercedes is making reparations ... that is supposed to be a good thing."



Better late than Never!

Of course it all boils down to one group of people having power over another group of people, be it English over Scots, Nazis over Jews and Slavs, Romans over Germania or Macedonians over Persians.

How far do we go back in history?
Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
Benque
23 Jun 2020
01:10:17pm
re: they see what they want to see !

And let's not forget Hugo Boss, and all those snappy SS uniforms.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Harvey
23 Jun 2020
03:33:42pm
re: they see what they want to see !

My area is going through problems now. Halifax was founded by a very nasty person by the name of Cornwallis, so his statue was removed. Our first Canadian Prime Minister was involved with setting up residential schools for the Native population so there is talk about removing anything pertaining to him. Next is Churchill who is considered to be a racist. He probably was since most of his generation had racist leanings. There are many others, many other place names, etc. far too numerous to mention. I am not a racist and also am 62.5% native, but this seems to be going a bit far. We cannot, and should not, judge people from previous generations by our standards today - that is wrong and unfair.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Gudgie
23 Jun 2020
06:34:39pm
re: they see what they want to see !

To say the Black Lives Matter campaign is being whipped up by the media is nonsense. It is an organic movement which sprung up immediately after the murder of George Floyd. It was instantly followed by protests in many other cities across the globe. People of every creed and colour are ashamed of the way people of colour are being treated, both in the present day and over the centuries.

While watching the crowds pulling over a slavers statue in Bristol, I was impressed that most of those involved were white people. There are so many protests taking place each day and so much alleged disorder, I cannot envisage there being so many militant activists to attend all these events.

While I am firmly on the side of the BLM protestors, I do think debate about whether symbols of past oppression should be removed, or amended is preferable to being torn down and then shown across the world on our different media portals.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
23 Jun 2020
06:54:55pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

" It is an organic movement which sprung up immediately after the murder of George Floyd."



Gudgie:- I hate to contradict you but the Black Lives Matter movement started in 2013.

Quote:

"In the summer of 2013, after George Zimmerman's acquittal for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the movement began with the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter. The movement was co-founded by three black community organizers: Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi."



No one should be above the Law. Police officers especially. They are there to uphold and enforce the Law of the land as laid down by the duly elected government of the day. Not to be social workers or political lackeys.
Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
Gudgie
23 Jun 2020
07:19:24pm
re: they see what they want to see !

You hated to contradict me, but you did anyway, lol.

I am aware of that. I was simply saying the recent protests were organic. Immediately after we saw the horrific treatment of George Floyd on news programmes, protests sprung up across the world. These protests were not the result of media manipulation or bias. People simply responded to an obvious injustice.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
23 Jun 2020
07:32:52pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Harvey:-

Have you read the Wikipedia pages on Edward Cornwallis? It is quite interesting. I had never heard of him.
I had heard of Charles Cornwallis and his escapades in the United States but not Edward.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
Snick1946
Members Picture

APS Life Member
23 Jun 2020
07:45:45pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Philib,

Don't you live in upstate NY? If it was supposed to be a depiction of area history how would anyone with a smidgen of sense possibly think the woman depicted was a slave?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Harvey
23 Jun 2020
07:48:26pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Ian:- I've skimmed his history a few times and remember he wasn't very well liked in Scotland, and maybe Ireland as well. But, if I remember right, he was incredibly good at following orders - when they told him to kill and plunder he did it very well. When he came to Nova Scotia he didn't treat the native population very well. But, at that time, England, France and Spain did not treat the native populations in the areas they "visited" very well. The killed many of the "inferior races" that they happened to meet.
It was almost like it was their "job"! Do we hold them responsible for what they did, probably we should! But, that's what was done back then - look at what the Spanish did in South and Central America about 200 years before. They probably all saw themselves as conquerors, not explorers or settlers!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
23 Jun 2020
08:30:34pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Harvey:-

Unfortunately many peoples were collateral damage in the wars between the European countries. The French, the British, the Spanish, the Dutch and the Portuguese exported their wars all over the world as well as forcing their religions on the indigenous races.

Man's inhumanity to Man.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
23 Jun 2020
09:57:34pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"To say the Black Lives Matter campaign is being whipped up by the media is nonsense."


Perhaps I should have been clearer, I will not speak to what the media is doing in countries other than US but here in the US the media is absolutely hyping a racism agenda. There are countless examples but the most obvious in one that has occurred over the last 3-4 days.

The US media hyped a story about a 'hate crime' of a noose hanging in the NASCAR garage of Bubba Wallace. It was splashed on every screen, touted as proof that racism is rampant in this country (and NASCAR). A big deal was made about how the garage area was only accessible by NASCAR officials and NASCAR employees and drivers.

The FBI sent 15 agents to the facility to investigate this hate crime. Not a single news service bothered to do any actual investigating, real reporting, or even encourage caution until more information was available.

Not a single media service bothered to check into the story, not a single news service sent a reported to investigate. No one bothered to ask for an image of the loose in question, they just ran the story as a factual and as an example of how racism is systemic in this country.

The FBI was sent to investigate this hate crime and it turned out the ‘noose’ was simply a rope used to pull down the garage door; the same ropes that are hanging on every NASCAR team garage door. The same garage pulls that have been hanging there for the entire racing season last year.

We sat through the Bubba Wallace 'hate crime' media stories for the last 72 hours, with them not bothering to do any real reporting, only to be 100% wrong. Do they care? Nope. Will they learn? Nope, this is the fourth time in recent months the US media has promoted 'noose hate crime' stories only for all of them to be hoaxes.

This is just one story in the last day. There are countless other examples the demonstrate how the US media is promoting racial discord and division.

I only see small amounts of BBC reporting so I am uneducated in the state of the media in GB or other EU countries; but this is country it is obvious and undisputable.
Don

Like 
10 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
partsguy
Members Picture

23 Jun 2020
10:12:31pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"Don't you live in upstate NY? If it was supposed to be a depiction of area history how would anyone with a smidgen of sense possibly think the woman depicted was a slave?"



Slaves WERE part of upstate NY history until around 1830, but the original reference for the mural is a photo from 1899, and the artist himself is quoted as saying he patterned the woman's face after his own mother, who is not of African descent. The artist is actually Spanish...

I swear, some people are just looking for reasons to be offended these days!

Like 
6 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
philb
Members Picture

23 Jun 2020
11:55:35pm

Auctions
re: they see what they want to see !

Partsguy, the artist was on our local tv channel today...he was amazed that someone thought the woman was a slave..he intended her to be a Dutch woman. I am very interested in finding out what was behind the speedy painting over !

Like
Login to Like
this post

"If a man would be anything, he must be himself."
Gudgie
24 Jun 2020
02:28:44am
re: they see what they want to see !

51Studebaker says the American media is promoting a racial agenda by reporting for 3 or 4 days that the FBI sent over 15 agents to investigate an alleged hate crime, which in the end turned out to be a false alarm.

Either the FBI is incredibly stupid to send so many people on a fool's errand, or the media was reporting on the fact such an investigation was underway and on the process of the investigation. For the FBI to send a task force such as this, it will be national news and prolonged messaging would be on every station.

Like 51Studebaker I won't presume to comment on something I know nothing about. However, I know something of the American media, as I've visited 33 of the 50 US States over around 50 visits to your wonderful country. I am aware of the condition of your news and issues of biased reporting. By his own admissions, this event was all over the news and on every screen for 3 or 4 days. That, to my questioning brain, sounds as though reporters were sent to investigate this story. Either the reporters, or the investigators, or both were slow to do their jobs.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
24 Jun 2020
03:52:29am
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"...media was reporting on the fact such an investigation was underway and on the process of the investigation..."





Here is an example of the reporting on the investigation from a few days ago.
They clearly are not ‘reporting on the fact such an investigation was underway’ nor are they reporting on the ‘the process of the investigation’. Note how the investigation is intentionally framed as an investigation of 'who done it' and NOT as ‘whether or not this happened’. Note how they use a loaded word like ‘noose’ and do not say ‘an alleged noose’. Note the chyrons at the bottom of the screen.

This cannot be defended as objective reporting and this was just one of hundred of news stories that were just like this.
Don

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
24 Jun 2020
06:51:28am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"This cannot be defended as objective reporting and this was just one of hundred of news stories that were just like this."




The United States is not the only country to suffer non-objective reporting.

Journalists here in the United Kingdom tend to "report" issues with their own opinions and biases and their own political leanings showing through.
They are also extremely aggressive when interviewing and of course never get the answers they want as the interviewee clams up or just repeats their mantra. The journalist never asks the obvious searching question. Of course on television the interviewer has some idiot telling them what questions to ask from the directors box.
They do not realise that quietly asked well constructed questions will probably get a better response from the interviewee. They think that confrontation makes great television and everything needs to be sensationalised.
Unfortunately we will arrive at the point that there will be no Freedom of Speech, just the opinions of the ignorant masses or those that can shout the loudest.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
Webpaper
Members Picture

24 Jun 2020
07:16:22am
re: they see what they want to see !

The news used to "report" the news. Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow, The Huntley-Brinkley Report, Douglas Edwards, and so many others.

Even CNN in it's early days - who can forget Peter, Bernie and John reporting live from the hotel room in Baghdad?

And now we have ........................?

Like 
5 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
ernieinjax
Members Picture

24 Jun 2020
12:37:57pm
re: they see what they want to see !

We have officially crossed the point of no return..... We have crossed the Rubicon.... there will be no turning back.....

There was always a line... no matter what your political stripe, Dem or Republican, or anything in between, that the use of violence was an unacceptable way of accomplishing political goals in the US. That's what other countries did; we were always better than that. Now don't misunderstand me, I know that we have had our fair share of riots in the past but there is something fundamentally different going on here.

Now, we have national politicians and the media endorsing and indeed encouraging the violence. This is new.

Oh, well. Nothing lasts forever. Goodbye America. Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

Like 
5 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
philb
Members Picture

24 Jun 2020
01:19:28pm

Auctions
re: they see what they want to see !

Well the Roman Senate solved the Caesar problem ! No wait that started civil wars.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"If a man would be anything, he must be himself."
partsguy
Members Picture

24 Jun 2020
10:43:23pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Phil, was the mural altered, or completely covered over?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Gudgie
25 Jun 2020
03:52:08am
re: they see what they want to see !

In an earlier comment I said I wouldn't comment on something I knew nothing about. I then watched the news video kindly provided by 51Studebaker. My reaction to the is that the report spent little time on the incident and more time showing the Confederate flag. They showed the flag on cars, on tee shirts, on posters and on a plane. No comment during the report stated the FBI had become involved. Other than that, I thought the item reached the standards of reporting which is now accepted by television viewers.

To educate myself, I googled "Bubba Watson Noose". I found many reports stating a noose WAS found in the garage. The FBI report stated the offensive item had been in situ since November of last year, and the garage had been randomly allocated to Watson only last week. Does that make it less offensive? Was the item "Fake News"? Was 51Studebaker accurate in his description? To those 3 questions my answer is no.

Brechinite explains quality of reporting is not now what it used to be. I wholeheartedly agree. I've stopped buying newspapers. A few years ago I bought 3 newspapers every day, 2 broadsheets and a tabloid. I realised each news item was almost always identical. Newspapers cut and pasted reports (normally issued by PR departments) and then sold them as news. On rare occasions when there appeared to be differences, examination showed minuscule variations between different reports. Adjectives would be changed, but the basics were always the same. Sadly, this also applies to sports coverage. If these reports were university tests, all would be seen by examiners as plagiarism.

Where television formerly recruited the brightest journalistic stars, sadly now any person who has a mobile phone can, and does, call themselves a reporter. Like published print, standards have fallen to, what I often think is, unacceptable levels. TV reporters are now employed based on their gender, sex, or cultural ethnicity, not on ability.

Here in Scotland, I have the luxury of living in a multi racial and multi cultural country. Fortunately racism is on the wane. We don't have a colonial past. Sadly we do have remnants of the legacy of slavery in the form of statues to people who got rich from the backs of slaves. Black Lives Matter made me question the legitimacy of honouring these long dead people. That doesn't mean I will be lining up to topple statues, or pull off street signs, but I am in favour of debate as to whether they should remain in place.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
25 Jun 2020
05:58:36am
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"…To educate myself, I googled "Bubba Watson Noose"…"



Could it be that being educated via Google, which is renowned it’s left leaning search results, might not be a good place to get all sides of a story?

Bubba Wallace appear on several news shows yesterday and was still using the word ‘noose’ and allowing the left leaning talking heads to maneuver him into the racist narrative. When I use Google this morning, the top returns are all parroting these comments since it supports their mistaken reporting from the previous days. What is more difficult to find is information such as the fact Bubba Wallace did not originally see anything, it was his crew which told him that a noose was hanging in the garage. Bubba Wallace then reported this hearsay to NASCAR and NASCAR did not bother to go look at the garage. What is also not being widely reported this morning is Wallace’s later statement where he admits that it ‘wasn’t what we feared it was’.

Image Not Found

Of course we all can have our own opinions. But the media calling a rope with a loop to pull a garage door down a hate crime noose was a rush to judgment and dishonest by any standard. I am sure that next I’ll be called racist since I put a ‘noose’ around my neck this morning and went out in public. I thought I innocently put on a coat and tie; but this thing is a noose and by me wearing it around my neck I am clearly racist.

Journalism 101 teaches reporters to use the word ‘alleged’, it is literally taught the first day of Journalism class and then reiterated over and over. Another of the most basic journalism skills is to always question the leads you receive. The standard Journalism adage used to be ‘If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out’; cautioning reporters to use critical thinking and to always check their leads. Why are those who are trying to spin this ‘noose’ story ignoring the fact that no one even bothered to seek a image or send a reporter to the Talladega garage? What is not being reported on is that many in NASCAR knew immediately that this was not a noose or a hate crime but they did not feel comfortable in coming forward knowing that they would be called racist?

The attempts of the media to report that the USA and NASCAR are racist has backfired like an out-of-tune NASCAR engine. Not only did the media totally fail at their jobs (again) but the world saw firsthand how quickly the USA and NASCAR rallied around Bubba Wallace; proving that the narrative of widespread racism is wrong. Ultimately history will reveal that just like the Jussie Smollett reporting and the Covington Catholic High School student reporting the media has proven they rush to judgement, do no verification, and cannot be trusted.

Whether it is the perception that in today’s world the media is pressured to instantly ‘report’ news without fact checking or if it is the media’s desired to spin a specific narrative, I doubt any reasonable person would argue that they are doing their jobs properly. And this trend is no different with the protest coverage. Few media outlets are doing their job and digging for the facts, instead doing the same level of effort and quality that they have shown over the last few years. And the fact that the trust in media is at historically low levels reflects that the majority of people are not idiots and we see what is really going on.

And we also know what is going on with the protests; they are far from organic in the US. Yesterday the FBI Director said that the FBI has opened an investigation into foreign influence and interference in the US protests. The Director said that the protests are not being driven by a single ideology movement or group but rather by those with other agendas. Of course this news is not getting much coverage in the main stream, folks can form their own opinions as to why it is not.

When I look at the current protests I also look at the protesters. I am not seeing a grassroot cross section of America. I am not seeing folks like bus drivers, brick layers, factory workers, plumbers and or anyone who looks like they have a job and are supporting a family. I see people who when they are told that they are pulling down a statue of an Abolitionist say, “I do not know any 1980s rock bands”.

I grew up in the 1960s and was called a hippie at the time. We protested ‘the man’, we built and lived in communes, we smoked dope. Being young and foolish, I stole Abbie Hoffman’s ‘Steal This Book’. I think everyone has a right to be young and foolish. I like most young people, they remind me of when I was stupid. But in the past young people were taught civics and history, we were taught to always ‘follow the money’ and look for underlying agendas, we were taught critical thinking. This appears to me to be an important missing part of the current situation. We have to start thinking about how much of a current story might be driven by China trolling the media. We have to ask questions like ‘how many of the protesters are been flown into the protest and who is paying for their travel and lodging’? And we have to be able to ask these kinds of critical questions without being accused of being a racist. I think it is dangerous to have situation were people feel like they cannot speak honestly without being called a racist or have a looped rope on a garage door without it being called a hate crime noose.
Don

Edit:
I would like to thank Gudgie for remaining civil, we can have differing opinions without resorting to flaming each other or personal attacks.

Like 
7 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
philb
Members Picture

25 Jun 2020
08:48:34am

Auctions
re: they see what they want to see !

Partsguy,the mural was covered over in a coat of blue paint..i have some newspaper clippings to post shortly. phil

Like
Login to Like
this post

"If a man would be anything, he must be himself."
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Jun 2020
11:18:34am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

There are always three sides to a story:-

My view......Your view.....and the Truth!


Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
Gudgie
25 Jun 2020
06:40:28pm
re: they see what they want to see !

51Studebaker certainly has his knickers in a twist. I don't wish to get into an argument about this. I said I googled "Bubba Watson Noose". I omitted to say I followed links to 3 British National newspaper reports of the alleged incident (which as stated in an earlier post) all turned out the same. I hardly think that is being educated by Google. If Google gives a left wing bias, so what? Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory. All 3 newspapers (Times, Telegraph, and Guardian) reported the FBI stated there was a noose which was in place for around 6 months. Are the FBI wrong?

My intervention in this debate was to attempt to balance the discussion. For centuries people of colour have been enslaved and discriminated against. George Floyd is only the latest in a long line of coloured people murdered by police. Thankfully (sic) his murder was caught on camera. God bless mobile phones and untrained journalists. Or should we say his alleged murder? Both my wife and I were outraged at the death of George Floyd. While we have not physically protested, we both agree that attitudes must change. It may be against the law in America to practice discrimination against coloured people, but how can you enforce the law if police are the worst offenders?

People can quote statistics about the number of deaths of black people in police custody, saying they are almost the same as those of white people, but tonight I watched a parent of a 16 year old black American boy tell of having "the talk" with his son about the need to act in the most compliant way possible and never to look them in the eye if stopped by police, giving no opportunity to police for arrest, assault, or worse. Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion? As a white visitor many times to the USA I have never been in fear of your police, but would I feel the same if I were black?

Bubba Wallace accepts this was not racist. NASCAR accept it was not racist. American and British press accept it was not racist. Seems to me the discussion now revolves around whether the Southern Cross should be permitted by NASCAR. I have an opinion on that but this is Stamporama, not American Hot Rods. I also have opinions on the language Don uses to justify his argument. I leave it to others to form their own opinion.

Like Don, I grew up in the 60's, but it seems the similarity ends there. I never smoked dope, and I went to work in a coal mine shortly after my 16th birthday. I was left wing in my twenties, but we had Thatcher then and everyone was. I owned a business for 30 years, employed people, and worked hard to keep a roof over my family and my employees families too, so my politics mellowed. I always believed there are 2 sides to a story and to check facts before rushing to judgement. Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing. I may be Pinko Liberal, but I'm not left wing now.

I am aware of the state of the media in America. Reporting on this issue will not result in anyone winning a Pulitzer prize. However, I have learned never, ever, to believe anything I see on Fox news, as a result of having watched 2 programmes about their history. Media, whether it is TV, newspapers, online, or elsewhere always display the agenda of those who own them. In the U.K. our media has many problems, but we are still able to achieve balance and fairness. Surely that can be achieved in America too?

Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Jun 2020
07:53:56pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

" but we are still able to achieve balance and fairness."



Sorry Gudgie but that is not true.

How can it be balanced and fair when they kow tow to certain political parties or are aggressive to others or to people they personally disagree with.

All you have to do is listen to BBC Radio Scotland in the mornings.


Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
mbo1142
Members Picture

25 Jun 2020
08:42:47pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Gudgie,

I do not want to get in any discussion right or wrong on the ongoing subject, but you asked,

Quote:

""Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion?""



I can't speak for other parents, but my parents sure did, and I also had the same discussion with my 3 teenage children. I also grew up in the 60s.


Like
Login to Like
this post
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
25 Jun 2020
09:16:01pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"I hardly think that is being educated by Google."


You were the one who said, “To educate myself, I googled "Bubba Watson Noose".”

Quote:

"Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory."


Show me where in this thread that I made comments about you or your nature. Why sink to personal attacks?

Quote:

"People can quote statistics about the number of deaths of black people in police custody, saying they are almost the same as those of white people, "


The actual facts and real data are important. The numbers show that more white people are killed by cops even though police have far more encounters with black people.

Quote:

"Or should we say his alleged murder?"


Yes, it is not called a murder until a conviction. The presumption of innocence is the legal principle and this is considered an international human right by the UN and most countries.

Quote:

"tonight I watched a parent of a 16 year old black American boy tell of having "the talk" with his son about the need to act in the most compliant way possible and never to look them in the eye if stopped by police, giving no opportunity to police for arrest, assault, or worse. Do parents of white teenagers have the same discussion? "


Absolutely, you teach children to listen to law enforcement officers. This is independent of whatever race you might belong to.

Quote:

"Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing. I may be Pinko Liberal, but I'm not left wing now. "


Completely and totally unfounded statement. I have made no assumptions about your politics and in fact have intentionally left politics out of my posts. Again, I am unsure why you are taking the discussion to a personal level. Please show me anywhere in this thread where I said anything about you, your politics or political leanings, or your personality.
Don

Like 
7 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
Gudgie
26 Jun 2020
08:04:04pm
re: they see what they want to see !

I obviously touched a nerve with 51Studebaker. Don if I upset you I apologise. I was participating in a discussion about a subject of great interest to both of us. While my apology is genuine, after reviewing all my contributions, I am unable to locate any inflammatory statements. Is “Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory” inflammatory?

Is “I also have opinions on the language Don uses to justify his argument. I leave it to others to form their own opinion” inflammatory? While “Don, it seems to me, you think anyone who disagrees with you is left wing” may be questionable, it’s no more questionable than “Could it be that being educated via Google, which is renowned it’s left leaning search results, might not be a good place to get all sides of a story? “

I did ask some questions of Don though. I’m not sure any were answered. I’ll repeat them. “I found many reports stating a noose WAS found in the garage. The FBI report stated the offensive item had been in situ since November of last year, and the garage had been randomly allocated to Watson only last week. Does that make it less offensive? Was the item "Fake News"? Was 51Studebaker accurate in his description?

Below is the statement from the FBI about the noose found in the pits at Talladega

Joint Statement from U.S. Attorney Jay E. Town and FBI Special Agent in Charge Johnnie Sharp, Jr. Regarding the Noose Found in NASCAR’s Bubba Wallace’s Garage at Talladega Superspeedway

"The FBI learned that garage number 4, where the noose was found, was assigned to Bubba Wallace last week. The investigation also revealed evidence, including authentic video confirmed by NASCAR, that the noose found in garage number 4 was in that garage as early as October 2019. Although the noose is now known to have been in garage number 4 in 2019, nobody could have known Mr. Wallace would be assigned to garage number 4 last week".

I said “the FBI stated there was a noose which was in place for around 6 months. Are the FBI wrong?” The above direct quotation uses the word “noose” 4 times. Nowhere in the complete, statement does it say the rope was a garage door pull tied in a ring, yet Don frequently calls it a rope.

I asked “how can you enforce the law if police are the worst offenders?” No answer.

Don, you wrote “Yesterday the FBI Director said that the FBI has opened an investigation into foreign influence and interference in the US protests. The Director said that the protests are not being driven by a single ideology movement or group but rather by those with other agendas. Of course this news is not getting much coverage in the mainstream, folks can form their own opinions as to why it is not.” Tonight I searched the FBI website. (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel) I looked at FBI Press Releases for the last 2 months and could find no record of any such statement by the FBI Director. As you said Don “Folks can form their own opinions”.

I mistakenly omitted the word “alleged in one sentence, but quickly added it 1 line later. You lectured me “The presumption of innocence is the legal principle and this is considered an international human right by the UN and most countries.” Perhaps you forgot that it was you, who on 20/6/2020, on this forum wrote “This started as a protest against the use of force by police which was of course ignited by the horrific murder of George Floyd. I don ot think that anyone (other than perhaps the bad cops defense lawyer) would try to justify this murder caught on video”. You attempted to educate me on journalism basics, but somewhere in that book the word consistency must be mentioned..

To Brechinite, I say I never listen to Radio Scotland, but I do get a balanced view of news.

Don, I repeat my apology from the start of this contribution. If I offended I am sorry. I joined this forum because I was outraged at the killing, while unarmed and in police custody, of George Floyd. Like you I stated my opinions. I attempted to keep my contributions lighthearted, but obviously you disagree.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Gudgie
26 Jun 2020
09:52:18pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Anglophile attacks me, then says personal attacks are totally unacceptable. That seems lost on me. Please tell me is it okay to criticise me for using Google?

I made a sincere apology earlier. I attempted to refocus this discussion on the reasons I joined in. I questioned the accuracy of some statements previously made, and I nailed my anti racist colours to the mast.

Anglophile, rather than make a contribution to the discussion then does what he says is wrong, by making a personal attack on me. He then closed in a rude manner "Got it? Good. Carry on." I left school more than 50 years ago, and have not been spoken to in that manner since some time before I left school.

Where we agree is when he said " A person is NOT evil if their ideas are different.". I think it was Voltaire who said "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it".

In every contribution I made to this discussion I have at all times addressed the ideas, and will continue to do so. Feel free to contribute your opinions on this important subject Anglophile.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
27 Jun 2020
05:01:41am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

" "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it"."



A very good ideal to work to.

Unfortunately, as we are humans, some read more into posts than is good for us and take umbrage in what we see as personal attacks, whether they are meant or not.

It is quite easy to batter away at the keyboard to reply to some comment that one considers to be a slight on their own person or view. Rise above the temptation.


Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
ernieinjax
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
05:45:24am
re: they see what they want to see !

What?!? There's a flame session going on and I missed it??? Yall need to get a hobby. Oh, wait. You all do have a hobby. Rolling On The Floor Laughing

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
27 Jun 2020
06:14:34am
re: they see what they want to see !

Gudgie,
When you disagree with someone you can simply say, ‘I disagree with Joe because of X, Y, and Z’. You do not have to call another person’s opinion ‘nonsense’ as you did in your very first post. But let’s move on.

All,
I apologize for the length of this post in advance but this is an important topic.

The majority of my comments have been about the media and those who are weaponizing important issues for their own money/power agendas. I stated in the beginning that I think that racism does indeed exist in all societies but when the issue gets hijacked by the media and politicians it undermines the effort to make real improvements. The media and politicians seize the moment to give lip service that serves only themselves. I gave an example of the inequities in the US educational system and mention how this was revealed in the vandalized the 54th Massachusetts Regiment Memorial in Boston. The US main stream media largely ignored this obvious hypocrisy and now history is doomed to repeat itself. The real issue is racial the inequities in the US educational system but this is ignored in favor of covering protests and some politicians are encouraging more protests.

Now there are protesters who have made plans to topple the Lincoln Emancipation Memorial statue, if the authorities had not stepped in they certainly would have already tried to topple and/or vandalized it. This is a memorial which was purchased and erected by freed slaves to honor Lincoln and his leadership in emancipation, this is a memorial which was dedicated by Fredrick Douglas. This memorial used to see an endless stream of teachers bringing their classrooms to teach them about US history and importance of emancipation; but this is not happening now due to the protesters intimidating people who approach it. And if they have their way this will no longer happen at all. I am at a complete loss to understand how this helps anything. Is the protest helping address the racial inequities in the US educational system? Is it helping minorities get better jobs? I see virtual no airtime given to addressing the real issues.

Allow me to give another example of how the media and those with agendas totally miss the real opportunity and instead pander and weaponize an important issue like racism. Facebook is embraced as a ‘woke’ company because they police the content of their venue for opinions that do not match what they think is a ‘woke’ perspective. Isn’t it great that many folks in our hobby support a ‘woke’ company like Facebook. Apparently Facebook’s lip service is enough to convince people that Facebook is a real leader in fighting racism. Does anyone care that Facebook’s workforce is comprised of only 4% African-Americans? Digging deeper, it turns out that only 1% of technology jobs are filled by African-Americans. Does this sound like a ‘woke’ company? Where is the hours and hours of media reporting calling out this hiring behavior? Why are not the protestors standing in front of Facebook buildings?

I also posted my opinion about the media bias and used the recent coverage of the ‘hate crime noose’ as an example. Many in the and out of the media are now zeroing in on the word ‘noose’ instead of the mistakes they made in their the rush to judgement and using a unverified story as evidence of systemic racism in America. But the insidious thing about the media is not simply their obvious biased reporting, it is a number of other ways they try to manipulate viewers. For example controlling what the lead story is, controlling how much time they spend on a story, controlling the crawls and other graphics around the screen or page, and most importantly controlling what they do NOT report on.

If something does not fit their narrative it is ignored and instead the time is filled with promoting their narrative only. How many hours and hours was invested on the ‘noose hate crime’ story? While this was happened, there have been real hate crimes occurring which have been ignored. Here is a simple example, the Francis Scott Key monument. Try and Googling ‘Francis Scott Key monument’ and see what returned. Can you find the real hate crime that the protesters committed when they spray painted ‘kill whiteys’ across the pedestal of the Francis Scott Key monument? Where were the hours and hours of news coverage on this hate crime? Where were the 15 FBI agents rushing in the next day to investigate this hate crime? Now Google the word ‘noose’ and see what gets returned.

I am not a lemming and resist being manipulated by the media and big tech companies. I know that I was born equal, I know that I treat others as I want to be treated, I know that I form my opinions about others based upon their character and not their skin color, nationality, religion, or sex. I have no ‘white guilt’ nor do I feel any need to virtual signal to others. I am willing to help fight injustice if it is in a nondestructive and productive way but I also will callout those who try to hijack important issues with hidden agendas and deceptive practices. I am not going to sit quietly and be intimated by anyone who calls me racist or privileged nor I am going to support politicians who latch onto whatever the current news cycle topics might be and pretend to ‘fix it’.

Currently we have many national politicians who want to demonstrate that they are relevant by pretending that Federal laws will address and ‘fix’ the use of force in law enforcement. How stupid do they think we are? There is no US national police force, police enforcement all occurs at the state and local level. Every state and local official have had decades to changes the use of force laws. Take NY city and NY state as an example. If the NYC police force is practicing systematic racism (which seems odd to me since the majority of NYPD is African-American) by using things like choke holds, then NY state and NYC officials could have changes the use of force laws themselves. All of the areas in the US which are considered problematic are controlled by local officials who change things if they wanted to. But instead they have left their communities rot, decay, and feaster but now want to make this a Federal issue? America is a Republic. I vote in and have the most influence in my community, I have much less ability to change things in Chicago or New York. In my opinion the best opportunity to make real changes, changes that help people and not just pandering and lip service, is at the local level.

America is not racist, there is no systematic racism in in US law enforcement or the judicial system. This is not 1950. There are some very real issues where an unbiased media could really help but they are completely missing the opportunity. Has anyone heard of Mekhi James? No, but everyone has heard of George Floyd. If Black Lives really Matter than why is not has not the media raised the name Mekhi James onto the tip of everyone’s tongue? In a single weekend there were more black lives lost in Chicago then the number of unarmed black people killed by police for an entire year. But there is no money or power in promoting the real information like this, there is no money or power in stories about Facebook only having 4% black employees. You get money and power by whipping up people who are either too ignorant or apathetic to look beyond their 30 second sound bites and instant online searches and in my opinion this is what is happening.
Don

Edit: I strongly disagree with the Mods removing Anglophile post. Not only has this broken the flow of the thread but his post was no more of a personal attack than others in this thread.

Like 
7 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
ernieinjax
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
06:40:18am
re: they see what they want to see !

@Gudgie

Quote:

"It is an organic movement..."



Rolling On The Floor Laughing

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
27 Jun 2020
07:03:27am
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"Don, you wrote “Yesterday the FBI Director said that the FBI has opened an investigation into foreign influence and interference in the US protests. The Director said that the protests are not being driven by a single ideology movement or group but rather by those with other agendas. Of course this news is not getting much coverage in the mainstream, folks can form their own opinions as to why it is not.” Tonight I searched the FBI website. (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel) I looked at FBI Press Releases for the last 2 months and could find no record of any such statement by the FBI Director. As you said Don “Folks can form their own opinions”."



He said it in an interview with Fox News on Wednesday. But since you said in an earlier post
Quote:

"However, I have learned never, ever, to believe anything I see on Fox news, as a result of having watched 2 programmes about their history."



I will link a media outlet you probably have fewer issues with
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/politics/christopher-wray-fbi-protests-foreign-influence/index.html

I'll wait for your apology on the implication you have made against me on this point.

Quote:

"I mistakenly omitted the word “alleged in one sentence, but quickly added it 1 line later. You lectured me “The presumption of innocence is the legal principle and this is considered an international human right by the UN and most countries.”"



I was talking about the media calling it a murder and not using the word alleged and mentioned that "Journalism 101 teaches reporters to use the word ‘alleged’...". Here is the context of my original post

Quote:

" Of course we all can have our own opinions. But the media calling a rope with a loop to pull a garage door down a hate crime noose was a rush to judgment and dishonest by any standard. I am sure that next I’ll be called racist since I put a ‘noose’ around my neck this morning and went out in public. I thought I innocently put on a coat and tie; but this thing is a noose and by me wearing it around my neck I am clearly racist.

Journalism 101 teaches reporters to use the word ‘alleged’, it is literally taught the first day of Journalism class and then reiterated over and over. Another of the most basic journalism skills is to always question the leads you receive. The standard Journalism adage used to be ‘If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out’; cautioning reporters to use critical thinking and to always check their leads. Why are those who are trying to spin this ‘noose’ story ignoring the fact that no one even bothered to seek a image or send a reporter to the Talladega garage? What is not being reported on is that many in NASCAR knew immediately that this was not a noose or a hate crime but they did not feel comfortable in coming forward knowing that they would be called racist?"



I do not understand how to took this to mean as a lecture towards YOU, it was me railing against the media narrative and spin. I do not think that I have lectured you at all and I KNOW that I have not made personal comments. So yes, folks can form their own opinions on what has occurred in this thread.
Don

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
musicman
Members Picture

APS #213005
27 Jun 2020
07:38:25am
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"I strongly disagree with the Mods removing Anglophile post. Not only has this broken the flow of the thread"




I for one whole-heartedly agree with this comment.

Opinion-based censorship should be avoided in this instance.


And yes - that is an opinion.

Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
vinman
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
08:32:20am
re: they see what they want to see !

Don,
Why do you bother? There are members here that don’t agree with you and will attack you for your opinion. I gave up posting. There were members from Australia, Great Britain and Canada who had way too much to say about America and how bad it is. When confronted with their obvious disdain for America my post were deleted. I have had a running conversation with members here and when they didn’t like my response the moderators removed parts of my posts. It would make me look foolish because the context of the conversation would be lost. The moderators like to remove post that I was responding to so my posts did not make sense. I have received hate messages and email from members on this board attacking me and my beliefs, when I brought this up to the moderators I was asked what did I do to make them send me these hateful messages. Really, what did I do! For the record they are members from other countries not America.
The moderators have the right to do as they see fit but just like the MSM they are interested in their own agenda. I wonder how long this post will last?

Vince

Like 
5 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
27 Jun 2020
09:05:46am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

" But the insidious thing about the media is not simply their obvious biased reporting, it is a number of other ways they try to manipulate viewers. For example controlling what the lead story is, controlling how much time they spend on a story, controlling the crawls and other graphics around the screen or page, and most importantly controlling what they do NOT report on."



Well Said.

AND

Censorship, in all forms, is despicable.
Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
51Studebaker
Members Picture

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
27 Jun 2020
10:08:03am
re: they see what they want to see !

Hi Vince
I think that it is important at this time in history to stand up and be heard and as is often quoted, ‘those who stand for nothing fall for everything’.

I agree that this community has a bit too much nationalism at times and I try to avoid getting sucked into it, from my chair it appears to come from a handful of folks.
To be honest I try not to comment on other countries and cultures because while I have visited some I have not lived there. I also do not trust that I can glean a good cultural understanding via Wiki or Google, for me this leads to a weak and unsatisfactory kind of knowledge.

Censorship-wise I understand the Moderator dilemma, I have been a Moderator of various forums since 2000. I have no delusions about ‘free speech’ in these kinds of forums, they are privately owned and they can managed them in any way they see fit. We all agreed to these Terms and Conditions when we signed up so it is whatever it is. But that said, I appreciate consistent Moderation and in this thread I am not seeing that.
Don

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

stampsmarter.com
musicman
Members Picture

APS #213005
27 Jun 2020
10:40:03am
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"I have no delusions about ‘free speech’ in these kinds of forums, they are privately owned and they can managed them in any way they see fit. We all agreed to these Terms and Conditions when we signed u"




Also a very good point.

Good of you to point out both sides.


Thumbs Up










Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
vinman
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
11:13:09am
re: they see what they want to see !

Don,
Thanks for your response. I agree with what you said ‘those who stand for nothing fall for everything’. I was taught in a different time as you were, 60’s & 70’s. I was always taught to question everything. I had a Catholic school education and by the time I hit high school I was even taught to question my own beliefs and other religions and cultures. It’s a large world out there and many different points of view.
I don't use Google or Facebook or Wiki for my information. How did that song go, "believe half of what you see and some or none of what you hear".
When you were accused of “Your colours are showing Don, whether they be Confederate or Old Glory” inflammatory? I know you are thick skinned but I even found that to be offensive especially coming from a person who don’t live in your country. It was just a shot at being an American and our flag, Old Glory or were you being accused of being a racist with the “Confederate” remark.

You are correct about “consistent Moderation”. I understand the moderator’s dilemma but I don’t see consistent moderation. It’s their board and are free to delete as they feel.
Vince



Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
amsd
Members Picture

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
27 Jun 2020
11:42:00am
re: they see what they want to see !

There's a lot here that really interests me,and being contributed by highly educated and intellingent folks, yet I'm loathe to jump for all the personal side trips we're taking.

It seems most of this is now refutations and counterrefutations of he said he saids. Personally, I have found those arguments best done behind the curtains, and there are people in this very thread with whom I have done just that, sometimes at my initiation and sometimes their's. We're damn near close to friends, even if our allegiances haven't moved a micron.

I'd urge us to return to the topics: initially the little Dutch immigrant/slash slave/slash Basque mother; and media malaise.

I'll start us off with the latter: i personally find a few media sources really useful, credible, accurate, and, when wrong, saying so. There's also an enormous number of outlets that are either lazy or so understaffed that well, there's no reason to read them, or they have surrendered journalistic ethics while retaining words like "news" in their description.

As to Google and facebook, Google is algorhythmic-based, and it, like those who monetize their own activity on it, follow the money. This is the first time i've heard Facebook called left-leaning. While they have silos in which it is unlikely a left guy will ever see a right guy, or vice versa, I don't think Mark and company are particularly political; they just want to be left alone to make more money, left, right, and truth be damned.

I try not to personally offend, but if I have, PM me and we'll keep it from being a world-wide conflagaration.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP
Benque
27 Jun 2020
12:41:44pm
re: they see what they want to see !

I very much like and agree with what you have written Don.

For Vince: As a Canadian, I am disgusted with the very strong anti-American bias in the Canadian news media. Just today, a feature story on CTV News will be aired: "What can we learn from the USA's mishandling of the pandemic?" I truly believe that this is a very transparent attack on the current US President, during an election cycle.
And, for every 5 minutes of time dedicated to local or international events, there are 55 minutes of racially motivated stories. Really, white guys and gals on TV setting themselves up for future execution for the crime of being white.
I did see some relevant and thought provoking coverage of race motivated police brutality, but the degree of coverage kind of blows it out of proportion with respect to many other non-racial events. Equal time, for equal crime.
I also believe that if there were a Democrat President running for re-election right now, the story to be aired today would be "What can we learn from the USA's successful handling of the pandemic?", even if all the numbers of deaths and infections were the same as now.
Also today, a news crawler: "Another noose found in Toronto construction site"
Watch out walking your dog if you are white, as you could be accused of displaying not only a noose (leash), but a SLAVE COLLAR as well. ANYTHING that can be misconstrued to fit the agenda will be.
EQUAL rights for ALL, no matter the race, creed, or gender.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
sheepshanks
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
05:46:01pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

" As a Canadian, I am disgusted with the very strong anti-American bias in the Canadian news media. Just today, a feature story on CTV News will be aired: "What can we learn from the USA's mishandling of the pandemic?" I truly believe that this is a very transparent attack on the current US President, during an election cycle."



Benque, did you actually read the article? most of the people quoted were Americans, I think two were Canadian. It did not, to me, come over as an attack on the president but more a fairly rational look at what has happened and why.
The article is also on cbc news at the link below.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/us-covid-19-surge-canada-1.5628979

As an Englishman living in Canada I am appalled at the conduct of crowds in all our countries, making me very sad at present is the amount of litter being left by antisocial morons who are crowding beaches and beauty spots across the UK.
Fortunately here in Manitoba we have only had about 320 cases, seven deaths and no one currently in hospital. We have still got idiots who will not isolate after travelling and they have now infected others. Maybe we should bring back the stocks on the village green.


Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
27 Jun 2020
05:51:50pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

"Maybe we should bring back the stocks on the village green."



I am with you on that.

Mind you if that happened in Scotland its the only way some folks would get their 5 items of fruit a day!....Rolling On The Floor Laughing

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
sheepshanks
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
05:55:13pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Nice one Ian, could you also throw Haggis or the occasional highland coo.

Like
Login to Like
this post
vinman
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
07:14:45pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Benque,
Interesting, I don't watch Canadian TV or any other countries news channels. I used to check in on BBC but it seemed like what you describe on Canadian news. Sorry you have to deal with that.

sheepshanks

Quote:

"As an Englishman living in Canada I am appalled at the conduct of crowds in all our countries, making me very sad at present is the amount of litter being left by antisocial morons who are crowding beaches and beauty spots across the UK."


I am amazed about the crowds and the trash they leave behind, are they same ones who complain about pollution and the oceans dying? I remember the after pictures of the Earth Day celebrations and the mess that was left behind.

Vince




Like
Login to Like
this post

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
vinman
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
07:35:32pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Classic Robert Crumb.

Image Not Found

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
sheepshanks
Members Picture

27 Jun 2020
07:38:56pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Vince, I'm sure some are the same folks, it is not as if there are not any litter bins about. If you could carry the stuff there, is it really difficult to take home and dispose of in your trash.
Did their parents really bring them up in that fashion. I'm sure they feel that they pay their taxes and it is therefore the job of someone else to clear up.
When I was in UK I worked in Kensington Gardens as a gardener, every day before we started the work on the flower beds and lawns we picked litter, 20 staff for about 1.5 hours every morning. The dustcart emptied the 200 litter bins. A further crew would clear rubbish through the afternoon/evening. On a summers day the cart would have to dump at least twice a day.
People just got up and walked away from their debris, sometimes even leaving hotel bedding, pots, pans glasses and cutlery, apart from the more foul stuff.
All this in a supposedly civilised society.


Like
Login to Like
this post
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
27 Jun 2020
07:52:53pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Sheepshanks:- Throw Haggis at them? What an "offal" idea.


Quote:

"are they same ones who complain about pollution and the oceans dying? "



YYUUUPPPP!!!

The same ones that queue for ages to buy designer trainers made in factories that have child labour and get paid $1 a day. The same ones that have smartphones etc with Lithium batteries. The same ones that fly 1000 miles for a weekly booze up in foreign parts so that their parents don't see what they get up to. The same ones that moan like hell when you tell them to walk or cycle to college when the car has broken down and is in the garage for repair. The same ones that think money grows on trees. The same ones that won't eat what you've prepared for the family because of the latest fad.

I just love these "kids"..............but I couldn't eat a whole one...Rolling On The Floor Laughing

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
Gudgie
27 Jun 2020
08:11:11pm
re: they see what they want to see !

51Studebaker provided a link to a news report (attributed to Fox News) regarding an interview with Christopher Wray. I checked it and found a video of the interview. Judging by the amount of answers to my search (on Bing) it appears to have been widely reported in American media. I correctly stated the FBI website didn’t report the Director’s statement to Fox. You won’t get an apology from me on that subject.

As an aside, perhaps the US Senate could investigate American involvement in the affairs of other countries. El Salvador, Grenada, Guatemala, Cuba, Indonesia, Libya, Afghansitan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, to name a few.

Regarding my failure to use the word “alleged”, (immediately corrected), I demonstrated your failure to use the same word in your original post on this forum, dated 20/6 2020. You respond by quoting from your contribution on 25/6/2020 and claim that as your original post. Sorry Don, but I am correct again.

I referred to the American Flag and Confederate flag in the same sentence and jokingly posed a question. You never saw it as a joke, so I apologised. I at no time suggested you are racist, but you continually say you are being accused of that. I can find no other person saying you are, so where or when were you accused of it?

You make statements which, when checked, have not been correct. If they are correct no mention is made or acknowledgements are given. Where are the personal attacks? I asked several questions but I haven’t received answers.

Vinman chimes in implying there is anti-American rhetoric on this thread. Not from me there isn't. As previously stated, my wife and I visited your country on 50 occasions visiting 34 different states. My last 5 visits were road trips. Whenever possible, we travel on back country roads, staying in small towns because we love small town USA, the welcome we receive, interaction with locals, and because we see real America. I haven’t yet met an American person I didn’t like, so I have no agenda against either Don or the United States. Where is the anti American rhetoric?

My original contribution agreed with Don about the horrific killing of George Floyd and asked if the toppling of statues in Great Britain by protestors could be justified. I said there should be dialogue about whether they should remain, be removed, or have explanations given on the statues about the people they represented.

Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
DannyS
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
02:40:52am
re: they see what they want to see !

This thread must be a nightmare for the poor moderator. To help I would suggest a change in the rules to protect some getting upset with out-of-country criticism.

1/ People are only allowed to criticize the country they are citizens of. Americans can criticize America, Canadians Canada, Dutch Holland, English England and Scots Scotland. Nobody is allowed to criticize another country. This will include topical references like Wuhan virus and Kung Flu of course.

2/ To reinforce Rule 1 as of now we are only allowed to collect stamps of the country we belong to. Americans America, Canadians Canada, Dutch Holland, English Britain and Scots just the Scottish regional Wildings and Machins. (Sorry Ian)

You know it makes sense.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
28 Jun 2020
04:52:43am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

" we are only allowed to collect stamps of the country we belong to"



Danny:- Would you please define "the country we belong too"?

a) Is it the country we currently live in? If so I'll have to sell my Bosnia, my Czechoslovakia, my Belgium, my Belgian Congo, my Japan and 14 other country collections.

b) Is it the country we are born in? If so can I have your aircraft collection as you are bound to have British Built aircraft in it.

c) What is your definition of country? Is it one that is a member of the United Nations?
Scotland is not a country in that sense, we are part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so I might even be Stateless.

Woe!...Woe!...and thrice Woe!!!........Rolling On The Floor Laughing

Sense?

What makes you think anybody has sense?

We are human beings AND stamp collectors with our own wee foibles......Rolling On The Floor Laughing

Like
Login to Like
this post

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
DannyS
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
05:48:06am
re: they see what they want to see !

It's OK Ian, I covered myself by becoming one of Theresa May's citizens of nowhere. By my very convoluted logic I claim that lets me collect from everywhere and also umpire disputes over other members collecting interests. Sorry Ian it's still just the regional Wildings and Machins for you.

Like
Login to Like
this post
stokesville
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
08:02:35am
re: they see what they want to see !

I can't say I've read every word of this thread but enough to get the gist of the discussion. Just to show you how hurtful the divide between races can be on both sides I offer what happened to my wife just last week. She's on facebook (I personally am not and will never be) and happened to simply "agree" with a post denouncing the tearing down of Confederate Statues. Never commented- just agreed with the post. Within an hour a post appeared claiming she was a racist. Expected? Maybe, but not by a black couple that live about 20 miles away that have been our friends for 49 years. Our kids played with their kids- even our grandkids have played with their grandkids- they were over with their grandkids twice last summer for a BBQ and swimming get together and we went out to dinner with them last fall. My wife (who is not well) was devastated. She's no more a racist than she is a Martian. I lost it- used the phone and said my piece and it wasn't nice. Point being- a 50 year on going respectful friendship ruined. I agree with 51Studebaker on the media and it's agenda.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
dani20
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
08:31:41am
re: they see what they want to see !

" My wife (who is not well) was devastated. She's no more a racist than she is a Martian. I lost it- used the phone and said my piece and it wasn't nice. "
In retrospect, have you helped the situation? Was your reaction/response seen by you as supporting/protecting your wife? Would she agree with your approach?

There are not easy answers to these questions, but it does highlight a tendency of we humans to respond in a particular way when we perceive a situation in a negative way. This goes back to our caveman inheritance- and gets in the way of where we are now and want to be.

Believe me when I say this is not a criticism, but a reflection of how I have behaved in the past and can now recognize a better path that could have been followed. I share this for what it might help others to do-things that I would have done differently, in retrospect.

You/we are greater than our initial negative reactions, and we need to be able to rise above the caveman mentality. Not easy, but necessary. Consider revisiting your responses to see if the better path can be accessed. It may not be, but you deserve the effort to see if you can reconnect to a friend, now a stranger, and mend the breech.

I wish you success in your efforts.
Best,
Dan

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
stokesville
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
09:04:36am
re: they see what they want to see !

Dani20- I regretted my actions shortly afterwards. It serves as an example on both ends of the spectrum and shows how sensitive this issue is. Speaking of both the original accusations and my immediate reaction without taking a moment to calm down and take a different approach. Now, I want to call and offer an apology but I feel an apology to my wife for the original false allegation will not be forthcoming. My wife and I have discussed this and agreed to do nothing. Friendship lost.

Like
Login to Like
this post
vinman
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
09:04:45am
re: they see what they want to see !

Stokesville,
I don't think voicing my opinion on Confederate statues not being torn down by rioters
is racist. I'm not sure how I would have reacted but I do understand your point. I don't know but maybe your friendship may not have been what you thought it was. Can it be repaired? I don't know. When I lose trust in someone it is very difficult for me to trust them again. Maybe it may be best to move on.

Dani,
I understand you are a peace maker and I see your point.

Quote:

"There are not easy answers to these questions, but it does highlight a tendency of we humans to respond in a particular way when we perceive a situation in a negative way"


Sure, everything is about perspective. Do you perceive being called a racist by long time friends other than negative?

Vince

edit
Stokesville,
Definitely a learning experience.


Like
Login to Like
this post

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
28 Jun 2020
09:59:34am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Aye! Act in haste, repent at leisure!

We have ALL broken that rule.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
Brechinite
Members Picture

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
28 Jun 2020
10:09:42am

Auctions - Approvals
re: they see what they want to see !

Quote:

" Sorry Ian it's still just the regional Wildings and Machins for you."



Danny:- Nice try but no way Jose!

Remember that ALL Great Britain commemorative stamps as well as all the definitives from the Penny Black onwards have been sold in Post Offices throughout Scotland.

Even the English, Northern Ireland and Welsh Regionals have been sold in Scotland via the Philatelic Bureau which is based in Edinburgh.

Rolling On The Floor Laughing

Like
Login to Like
this post

"StayAlert.......Control The Virus.......Save Lives."
dani20
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
10:11:03am
re: they see what they want to see !

Dear Vince and Stokesville,
I believe that I may now be saying something that you both already are well aware of, but for completeness I feel it appropriate to mention it again. (Thanks for the patience.)

There is a saying that reflects truth "To know all is to forgive all". Another saying from the Native American culture states "Walk a mile in the other's moccasins before condemning" makes the same point.

When I end up in political discussions with my Republican old geezer friends, we have found that if we can agree on the facts, before entering into a shouting match, we often are in more agreement than we initially thought.

On more than one occasion becoming aware of medications/pain/current issues upon their minds the perspective changes about our initial apparent differences. To know all is to forgive all is powerful medicine.

All likely not needing to be said, but I appreciate the forbearance.
Best,
Dan

Like
Login to Like
this post
ikeyPikey
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
02:53:30pm
re: they see what they want to see !

Having lived in Texas, I would like to say that tying a garage door rope into a noose is a joke.

Yes, it is a dumb joke, it is a tasteless joke, it is an offensive joke ... but it is a common joke.

It becomes appalling when the noose is more than just a noose, eg, when a family or community has suffered a loss by hanging, be that a recent suicide or a not-long-ago-enough murder.

Quote:

"... The news used to "report" the news. Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow, The Huntley-Brinkley Report, Douglas Edwards, and so many others ..."



Some of these guys spent years explaining how we were 'winning' in Vietnam, so I think that it is worth remembering that they (sometimes) traded favorable coverage for "access", (sometimes) relied on press releases to fill their air, (almost always) did The Boys Club Thing to lock-out their female colleagues, etc.

The faults we see in The Media today are not new; they have just progressed, and grown more glaring, as we've had more voices arise to point them out.

Quote:

"... I grew up in the 1960s and ... I think everyone has a right to be young and foolish ... we were taught to always ‘follow the money’ and look for underlying agendas ..."



Responsible adults (who were young'n'foolish in the 60s) are freely repeating an "explanation" that the police are distributing new/powerful fireworks to young ghetto dwellers so that the citizenry will beg the police to come back, and intervene.

Quote:

"... the Lincoln Emancipation Memorial statue ..."



I can understand how someone could be deeply offended by the slavery porn in this statue, which could just as well have featured a freed slave, standing tall (and poor), broken chains at his feet.

Quote:

"... Can you find the real hate crime that the protesters committed when they spray painted ‘kill whiteys’ across the pedestal of the Francis Scott Key monument? ..."



I am deeply offended by so-called hate crime laws. The crime is the crime, and I do not care one twit about what someone was thinking when they did it ... with the obvious exceptions of crimes that require intent (?fraud), genuine mental health issues, et al ... and I do not care one twit if the victim was a member of a protected class.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."
dani20
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
03:28:46pm
re: they see what they want to see !

A thoughtful response IkeyPicky, with an underlying assumption that what we are seeing/being exposed to is a statement of personal feelings being expressed. I am concerned that we might be being played, by efforts from governments/groups against the concepts of personal freedom and are trying to stoke dissension.

At this time in our lives we are aware that trolls/cyber attacks/ bots/secret agenda's are all being used against us(U.S.A folk) utilizing facebook/media outlets/reporters with an agenda to try to instill fear/anger/avoidance/suspicion/isolation.

All that being said, it becomes a necessity to be aware of sources and hidden agendas, and to call them out whenever uncovered. Thus we can insure that we remain a democracy. Above all, of course, is to become an informed, alert citizen, and to vote.
Best,
Dan

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
philb
Members Picture

28 Jun 2020
08:06:55pm

Auctions
re: they see what they want to see !

Moderators, this thread has my name on it...i ask that it be ended . If people want to debate they can start their own thread. Thanks, phil

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"If a man would be anything, he must be himself."
auldstampguy
Members Picture

Just one more small cover .....
28 Jun 2020
09:32:45pm
re: they see what they want to see !

I'm closing this thread as requested by Phil, who was the thread originator.

Regards .... Tim

Like
Login to Like
this post

mncancels.org
        

(This thread has been closed by a moderator)
Please Note:
Postings that were loaded from the old Discussion Board cannot be edited.

Contact Webmaster | Visitors Online | Unsubscribe Emails


This site is provided by Roy Lingen at www.buckacover.com

User Agreement

Copyright © 2020 Stamporama.com