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Europe/Other : Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

 

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smauggie
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01 May 2020
01:20:13pm
Could any of these be a 119a? How do you identify a 119a?

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

01 May 2020
02:31:02pm
re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

According to Y&T there are two types of the 25c. type 1 (#114) and type 2 (#118)
Type 2 has gaps in the frame under the numeral so it could be the fourth stamp you show (but I am not certain..could be a spec of dust that caused the gap of your fourth stamp).

There are several varieties of the numeral separately printed as noted by Y&T: numeral outside the box (114a), missing numeral (114b), inverted numeral (114c) as well as an imperf (#114d).
According to Y&T type 1 was printed in two passes, while type 2 was printed in a single pass. The 10c and 25c are the only stamps available in both type 1 and type 2.

Image Not Found

rrr...
The numerals for the type 1 (2 pass printing) can fall shifted in the box, but some are also well centered, so it is better to rely on the gaps in the frame for identification.

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nigelc
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01 May 2020
02:35:37pm
re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

Hi smaugie,

That's an interesting puzzle!

I suspect these are all Sc. #119a.

However, it's a little confusing comparing different catalogues.

According to SG,

the innermost of the two inner frame lines ...

SG 298 (figure of value inserted at a second printing) ... is always continuous.

SG 302 (entire stamp printed at one time) ... is interrupted

The "innermost frame line" here is the one immediately to the right of the large figure 5.

These correspond to what Maury calls Type 1 and Type 2 respectively:

Image Not Found


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Dambrovski
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In Arduis Fidelis

01 May 2020
02:42:01pm
re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

Hi,

It is difficult to tell 119 and 119a apart.
However, in my SG France specialised catalogue Scott # 119a is SG 298 and Scott 119 is not listed at all as a 1900 issue.
I checked it on my Ceres french catalogue and they make no difference either apart from some print differences.
If your French is up to it the page below may be helpful.



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wirralps.com
smauggie
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01 May 2020
03:05:59pm
re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

Thank you gentlemen.

Here is the detail with the most complete inner frame line. Would this be a 119a then? There are still some small breaks in the line, and I am wondering if that is just a printing aberration or an actual broken line.

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nigelc
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01 May 2020
03:29:58pm
re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

I believe this is a Type I stamp:

Image Not Found

It's a little tired but it shows the detail around the bottom of the letter P:

Image Not Found

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

01 May 2020
04:26:33pm
re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

"There are still some small breaks in the line, and I am wondering if that is just a printing aberration or an actual broken line."



I think it is a printing aberration, possibly dust caused...but I am guessing!
rrr....

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
smauggie

01 May 2020
01:20:13pm

Could any of these be a 119a? How do you identify a 119a?

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

canalzonepostalhisto ...
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
01 May 2020
02:31:02pm

re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

According to Y&T there are two types of the 25c. type 1 (#114) and type 2 (#118)
Type 2 has gaps in the frame under the numeral so it could be the fourth stamp you show (but I am not certain..could be a spec of dust that caused the gap of your fourth stamp).

There are several varieties of the numeral separately printed as noted by Y&T: numeral outside the box (114a), missing numeral (114b), inverted numeral (114c) as well as an imperf (#114d).
According to Y&T type 1 was printed in two passes, while type 2 was printed in a single pass. The 10c and 25c are the only stamps available in both type 1 and type 2.

Image Not Found

rrr...
The numerals for the type 1 (2 pass printing) can fall shifted in the box, but some are also well centered, so it is better to rely on the gaps in the frame for identification.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
nigelc

01 May 2020
02:35:37pm

re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

Hi smaugie,

That's an interesting puzzle!

I suspect these are all Sc. #119a.

However, it's a little confusing comparing different catalogues.

According to SG,

the innermost of the two inner frame lines ...

SG 298 (figure of value inserted at a second printing) ... is always continuous.

SG 302 (entire stamp printed at one time) ... is interrupted

The "innermost frame line" here is the one immediately to the right of the large figure 5.

These correspond to what Maury calls Type 1 and Type 2 respectively:

Image Not Found


Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Dambrovski

In Arduis Fidelis
01 May 2020
02:42:01pm

re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

Hi,

It is difficult to tell 119 and 119a apart.
However, in my SG France specialised catalogue Scott # 119a is SG 298 and Scott 119 is not listed at all as a 1900 issue.
I checked it on my Ceres french catalogue and they make no difference either apart from some print differences.
If your French is up to it the page below may be helpful.



Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

wirralps.com
Members Picture
smauggie

01 May 2020
03:05:59pm

re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

Thank you gentlemen.

Here is the detail with the most complete inner frame line. Would this be a 119a then? There are still some small breaks in the line, and I am wondering if that is just a printing aberration or an actual broken line.

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

canalzonepostalhisto ...
Members Picture
nigelc

01 May 2020
03:29:58pm

re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

I believe this is a Type I stamp:

Image Not Found

It's a little tired but it shows the detail around the bottom of the letter P:

Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
01 May 2020
04:26:33pm

re: Mouchon - The Rights of Man - How do I determine if I have a 119a?

"There are still some small breaks in the line, and I am wondering if that is just a printing aberration or an actual broken line."



I think it is a printing aberration, possibly dust caused...but I am guessing!
rrr....

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
        

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