Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
e looking stamp
Login to Like
this post
A terrible cancellation, but an interesting double perf example.
Dan
Login to Like
this post
Looks indeed like a double strike of the vertical perforations. Obviously not in great shape otherwise, but I would not call the cancellation "terrible", just somewhat uninspired. It seems to be some sort of fancy cancel which might be typical of a specific place. However, I do not know much of these.
-jmh
Login to Like
this post
Hi JMH,
I don't recognize it as a fancy cancel type, and it strikes me that some postal employee had a bit too much time on his hands and decided to obliterate the face. Just speculation on my part-not fact. The shape, once the perfs are straightened out, doesn't seem to me to be too bad. Of course the top perfs are quite raggedy, but remember this is an oldie, and we all do get a bit raggedy as we age, don't we?
Best,
Dan
Login to Like
this post
i have seen double lines of perfs before on the 1861 issues, but this is the first time I've seen them on both sides of the vignette
I wonder if that cancel is a double strike of something. I'm intrigued by the heavy inking at 2 points.
Login to Like
this post
Not a cancel strike, but a box and an X, done by hand rather than by a carved cancel which would have been inked. Not fact, just my impressions.
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
Dan,
what implement in 1860 might have made that? a brush?
David
Login to Like
this post
"... i have seen double lines of perfs before on the 1861 issues ..."
Purely a math question: could it pay to turn a jumbo into a double-perf'd ?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
http://stampsmarter.com/features/FancyCancelsClassicView.html
Login to Like
this post
have a look at the back thanks .
Login to Like
this post
The cancel looks almost like watercolor paint to me
Login to Like
this post
David, in our century a felt-tip marker would do it-back in 1860 I don't know . Perhaps an artist in our group might clue us in as to what tips were available for the artists of that time. If we find that artists used something like a felt-tip marker for their art, we may be able to more reasonably assume its use postally. All speculation though-no hard evidence.
Dan
Login to Like
this post
My thoughts also or a young kid, a better scan helps I dont think any trickery is involved .just my opinion.just a interesting stamp to me..thank for the feedback. good day.
Login to Like
this post
Must have been good President,sure is a tough old stamp. Thanks
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
At top right is another nice copy of the same stamp with doubled perfs right and left.
See here: http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/us/us04.jpg
(Modified by Moderator on 2020-01-17 06:04:44)
Login to Like
this post
thanks,for the help,and on my B Day. nice work.
Login to Like
this post
In the early 1890s old perforation wheels and equipment were sold off for scrap. Some of them made there way into the hands of dealers who started cranking out all kind of perforation freaks and oddities. As such, all perf freaks and oddities like this should be considered dubious. There are legitimate perf freaks from this period but the marketplace typically treats the majority of the loose stamps (not tied on cover) as fabricated/altered stamps.
For this stamp and in my opinion, a double mis-perf is more dubious than a single mis-perf.
Don
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
thanks.
Login to Like
this post
Don, I don't particularly like being a bubble buster, do you? I fear those doubled perfs may put the first stamp in that row (No. 63) of being in greater danger of it's Green cancel being fraudulent. I was never sure it was a genuine Green CDS but this casts more doubt on it. As you know but many don't is that Green cancels are very scarce on most all 19th U.S century stamps and add a hefty premium to the stamps themselves.
Login to Like
this post
Hi Mitch!
Hope this post finds you and yours healthy and happy in this new year.
The RLCooper stamp has significant faults (ceases and pulled perfs on top) so it made a good candidate for someone to play around with it to try to make it more marketable. With the single extra row of perfs your #63 looks a bit more feasible to my eye. Your green cancel obviously commands a closer look and running your stamp through RetroReveal results in this
I typically start with the part of the cancel that I have the most confidence in and unfortunately this cancel is not giving up a lot of info to work with. I think I might be seeing a “D De”? This would fit with places like Mansfield Depot (CT) or perhaps Red Devil (AK). Red Devil AK post office was not in existence in 1861 so that one can be crossed off the list. A preliminary search reveals that the Mansfield Depot (CT) post office was in existence as far back as at least 1874. And of course my assumption that the cancel is reading “D De” is questionable. Barring something like the green cancel soaking through to the back side (making more likely to be fake) more research would be need to see if you can ID the cancel. You would need to search old postal history auction catalogs and sites like PhilaMercury to see if you can match it up with another cancel.
I agree that vivid green cancels from this era (as opposed to those which have turned blueish with age over the years) can raise your eyebrow bit I think your stamp is worth investing some more time in research.
Don
Login to Like
this post
Don,
Stepping back a few feet from my monitor and then looking at your posted black & white image, the lettering looks like "DDLET"
It becomes clearer from a distance.
Login to Like
this post
MIDDLETOWN perhaps?
If you search eBay/Stamps, all kinds of covers with MIDDLETOWN come up. It appears to be a common town name.
Login to Like
this post
Or possibly even DDDET - I think the "L" curves up a bit too much on the bottom to be an "L" - and as a "D", the right side of the "D" is just lost in the fancy design....?
Login to Like
this post
...I stand by my initial inclination!
Login to Like
this post
Absolutely possible! Respectfully acknowledged. My eyes aren't getting any younger, but that was just what sort of jumped out at me. 
Login to Like
this post
And the more I look at it, the more you have me convinced.....
And Middletown "is" a very good possibility....
Login to Like
this post
with the error stamp another stamp was packaged in the sealed plastic back to back, why I have no clue here is a pic of that stamp.that i have managed to salvage so far these two and line pair of 482a and two singles. so far 
Login to Like
this post
Don, I to also wish you and your family the best of health and happiness in the coming year! Thank you much for taking the time to look at my stamp. The letters DDLE appear quite clear to me. The next letter is not clear at all, the two perfs going through it certainly do not help. If anything it looks like a backwards F which of course is of no help. Is there a reference,hopefully online, which shows CDS town cancels of the era and colors that were used? I have had the stamp for a very long time and within that time I can't remember seeing another like it.
Login to Like
this post
I considered it might be DDLE but was concerned about the white space between the two ‘D’s. It does not disqualify it as a ‘DDLE’ but I would want to see verification that the extra space did exist on other cancels.
The short answer to your question is ‘no’, there is no single, comprehensive resource to turn to lookup these old cancels. Here is the method I currently use…first I run the cancel through RetroReveal to try to bring out the cancel as much as possible (instructions on use under ‘How To’ section in Stamp Smarter. Then using this info I turn to the Stamp Smarter ‘Zip Code’ lookup tool because it allows me to quickly identify some of the possible city/town names based upon entering a partial name fragment. So entering DDLE and also the next letter which might be a ‘T’ returns a number of ‘Middletown’ (and Fiddletown) which could be a fit.
Armed with this info, I then typically search across all the US Postal Guides for the same town/city name to see when the Post Office was established. (The entire run of Postal Guides is available for free download on Stamp Smarter. I saved them into a single folder and have built a PDF index for them so searching across this index is fast and easy.) I also search across all 50 years of La Posta using the same PDF indexing technique. (These are not yet available to the public but we are working hard to get them published in the next month or two.)
Once I have some possible city/town names in hand, the real grunt work begins. There are not many shortcuts for visually seeking matches with other covers. I reply upon the Phila Mercury site, Jim Forte’s site, eBay, SCF, and search across the old stamp auction catalogs I have for any cancel in the same era that might verify the cancel as legitimate. Without a single, comprehensive resource this is about knowing where to look and being good at searching. Every search engine is different so learning how to search can be daunting but mastering them can save you a lot of time.
Digging out this kind of information is work but to be honest I find it rewarding. I think most stamp collectors are the same, they enjoy the ‘hunt’ and finding an answer is as intrinsically satisfying as finding that last stamp needed to complete a set.
Don
Login to Like
this post
02:05:56pm
Just curious about how a double perf would happen. Was the sheet of stamps run through the perforation machine twice? If that were true the perfs would have been on top of each other. I'm trying to figure out how to easily get two parallel rows, the one show with double perfs on all sides is really confusing, but maybe someone can explain how the machine works that does the perforations works. Does it, or did it, do a row at a time or the whole sheet at once? It's possible the person running the machine decided to have a bit of fun. The stamps would have had to have fairly large margins as well.
Login to Like
this post
Hi Harvey,
Stamp perforation was originally done in one of two ways:
- A single line of holes was cut in a single operation (line perforation)
This would be repeated for each row of holes and then the sheet would be turned (or a second perforator used) to add the rows of holes at right angles.
- Three sides of each stamp in a row (or column) were cut in a single operation (comb perforation).
This would be repeated for each row (or column).
In either method if the sheet didn't advance far enough between each use of the perforator then you could get uneven spacing of perforations such as a double row of perforations.
If the sheet advanced too far you could get "imperf between" varieties.
If the sheet were only line perforated in one direction you could get horizontally or vertically imperforate varieties.
Login to Like
this post
Hi Harvey,
Here's an example from http://www.stampsofvictoria.com/perforation.php showing a block of stamps from Victoria:
Here you can see the results of a vertical comb perforator where I guess there has been too much play in the machine allowing the comb to move up or down relative to the sheet between perforations.
The horizontal spacing isn't great either!
Login to Like
this post
06:43:39pm
Thanks - I understand now. I assume things are done in one step now and the perfs are probably punched out. I've seen examples where the sheet has been folded somehow and the perfs were punched out in weird patterns. There's really not much that you people don't know. I really think that the one double perfed on almost every side would be done by someone just having a good time with the machine.
Login to Like
this post
Line perforator info can be found here http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_LinePerforations.html
Don
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
A terrible cancellation, but an interesting double perf example.
Dan
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Looks indeed like a double strike of the vertical perforations. Obviously not in great shape otherwise, but I would not call the cancellation "terrible", just somewhat uninspired. It seems to be some sort of fancy cancel which might be typical of a specific place. However, I do not know much of these.
-jmh
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Hi JMH,
I don't recognize it as a fancy cancel type, and it strikes me that some postal employee had a bit too much time on his hands and decided to obliterate the face. Just speculation on my part-not fact. The shape, once the perfs are straightened out, doesn't seem to me to be too bad. Of course the top perfs are quite raggedy, but remember this is an oldie, and we all do get a bit raggedy as we age, don't we?
Best,
Dan
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
i have seen double lines of perfs before on the 1861 issues, but this is the first time I've seen them on both sides of the vignette
I wonder if that cancel is a double strike of something. I'm intrigued by the heavy inking at 2 points.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Not a cancel strike, but a box and an X, done by hand rather than by a carved cancel which would have been inked. Not fact, just my impressions.
Dan C.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Dan,
what implement in 1860 might have made that? a brush?
David
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
"... i have seen double lines of perfs before on the 1861 issues ..."
Purely a math question: could it pay to turn a jumbo into a double-perf'd ?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
http://stampsmarter.com/features/FancyCancelsClassicView.html
Login to Like
this post
11:26:44pm
re: Is this some sort of Error
have a look at the back thanks .
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
The cancel looks almost like watercolor paint to me
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
David, in our century a felt-tip marker would do it-back in 1860 I don't know . Perhaps an artist in our group might clue us in as to what tips were available for the artists of that time. If we find that artists used something like a felt-tip marker for their art, we may be able to more reasonably assume its use postally. All speculation though-no hard evidence.
Dan
Login to Like
this post
12:41:57pm
re: Is this some sort of Error
My thoughts also or a young kid, a better scan helps I dont think any trickery is involved .just my opinion.just a interesting stamp to me..thank for the feedback. good day.
Login to Like
this post
02:02:01pm
re: Is this some sort of Error
Must have been good President,sure is a tough old stamp. Thanks
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Is this some sort of Error
At top right is another nice copy of the same stamp with doubled perfs right and left.
See here: http://mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/us/us04.jpg
(Modified by Moderator on 2020-01-17 06:04:44)
Login to Like
this post
03:13:50am
re: Is this some sort of Error
thanks,for the help,and on my B Day. nice work.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
In the early 1890s old perforation wheels and equipment were sold off for scrap. Some of them made there way into the hands of dealers who started cranking out all kind of perforation freaks and oddities. As such, all perf freaks and oddities like this should be considered dubious. There are legitimate perf freaks from this period but the marketplace typically treats the majority of the loose stamps (not tied on cover) as fabricated/altered stamps.
For this stamp and in my opinion, a double mis-perf is more dubious than a single mis-perf.
Don
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Is this some sort of Error
Don, I don't particularly like being a bubble buster, do you? I fear those doubled perfs may put the first stamp in that row (No. 63) of being in greater danger of it's Green cancel being fraudulent. I was never sure it was a genuine Green CDS but this casts more doubt on it. As you know but many don't is that Green cancels are very scarce on most all 19th U.S century stamps and add a hefty premium to the stamps themselves.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Hi Mitch!
Hope this post finds you and yours healthy and happy in this new year.
The RLCooper stamp has significant faults (ceases and pulled perfs on top) so it made a good candidate for someone to play around with it to try to make it more marketable. With the single extra row of perfs your #63 looks a bit more feasible to my eye. Your green cancel obviously commands a closer look and running your stamp through RetroReveal results in this
I typically start with the part of the cancel that I have the most confidence in and unfortunately this cancel is not giving up a lot of info to work with. I think I might be seeing a “D De”? This would fit with places like Mansfield Depot (CT) or perhaps Red Devil (AK). Red Devil AK post office was not in existence in 1861 so that one can be crossed off the list. A preliminary search reveals that the Mansfield Depot (CT) post office was in existence as far back as at least 1874. And of course my assumption that the cancel is reading “D De” is questionable. Barring something like the green cancel soaking through to the back side (making more likely to be fake) more research would be need to see if you can ID the cancel. You would need to search old postal history auction catalogs and sites like PhilaMercury to see if you can match it up with another cancel.
I agree that vivid green cancels from this era (as opposed to those which have turned blueish with age over the years) can raise your eyebrow bit I think your stamp is worth investing some more time in research.
Don
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Don,
Stepping back a few feet from my monitor and then looking at your posted black & white image, the lettering looks like "DDLET"
It becomes clearer from a distance.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
MIDDLETOWN perhaps?
If you search eBay/Stamps, all kinds of covers with MIDDLETOWN come up. It appears to be a common town name.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Or possibly even DDDET - I think the "L" curves up a bit too much on the bottom to be an "L" - and as a "D", the right side of the "D" is just lost in the fancy design....?
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
...I stand by my initial inclination!
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Absolutely possible! Respectfully acknowledged. My eyes aren't getting any younger, but that was just what sort of jumped out at me.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
And the more I look at it, the more you have me convinced.....
And Middletown "is" a very good possibility....
Login to Like
this post
12:25:23am
re: Is this some sort of Error
with the error stamp another stamp was packaged in the sealed plastic back to back, why I have no clue here is a pic of that stamp.that i have managed to salvage so far these two and line pair of 482a and two singles. so far
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Don, I to also wish you and your family the best of health and happiness in the coming year! Thank you much for taking the time to look at my stamp. The letters DDLE appear quite clear to me. The next letter is not clear at all, the two perfs going through it certainly do not help. If anything it looks like a backwards F which of course is of no help. Is there a reference,hopefully online, which shows CDS town cancels of the era and colors that were used? I have had the stamp for a very long time and within that time I can't remember seeing another like it.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
I considered it might be DDLE but was concerned about the white space between the two ‘D’s. It does not disqualify it as a ‘DDLE’ but I would want to see verification that the extra space did exist on other cancels.
The short answer to your question is ‘no’, there is no single, comprehensive resource to turn to lookup these old cancels. Here is the method I currently use…first I run the cancel through RetroReveal to try to bring out the cancel as much as possible (instructions on use under ‘How To’ section in Stamp Smarter. Then using this info I turn to the Stamp Smarter ‘Zip Code’ lookup tool because it allows me to quickly identify some of the possible city/town names based upon entering a partial name fragment. So entering DDLE and also the next letter which might be a ‘T’ returns a number of ‘Middletown’ (and Fiddletown) which could be a fit.
Armed with this info, I then typically search across all the US Postal Guides for the same town/city name to see when the Post Office was established. (The entire run of Postal Guides is available for free download on Stamp Smarter. I saved them into a single folder and have built a PDF index for them so searching across this index is fast and easy.) I also search across all 50 years of La Posta using the same PDF indexing technique. (These are not yet available to the public but we are working hard to get them published in the next month or two.)
Once I have some possible city/town names in hand, the real grunt work begins. There are not many shortcuts for visually seeking matches with other covers. I reply upon the Phila Mercury site, Jim Forte’s site, eBay, SCF, and search across the old stamp auction catalogs I have for any cancel in the same era that might verify the cancel as legitimate. Without a single, comprehensive resource this is about knowing where to look and being good at searching. Every search engine is different so learning how to search can be daunting but mastering them can save you a lot of time.
Digging out this kind of information is work but to be honest I find it rewarding. I think most stamp collectors are the same, they enjoy the ‘hunt’ and finding an answer is as intrinsically satisfying as finding that last stamp needed to complete a set.
Don
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
19 Jan 2020
02:05:56pm
re: Is this some sort of Error
Just curious about how a double perf would happen. Was the sheet of stamps run through the perforation machine twice? If that were true the perfs would have been on top of each other. I'm trying to figure out how to easily get two parallel rows, the one show with double perfs on all sides is really confusing, but maybe someone can explain how the machine works that does the perforations works. Does it, or did it, do a row at a time or the whole sheet at once? It's possible the person running the machine decided to have a bit of fun. The stamps would have had to have fairly large margins as well.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Hi Harvey,
Stamp perforation was originally done in one of two ways:
- A single line of holes was cut in a single operation (line perforation)
This would be repeated for each row of holes and then the sheet would be turned (or a second perforator used) to add the rows of holes at right angles.
- Three sides of each stamp in a row (or column) were cut in a single operation (comb perforation).
This would be repeated for each row (or column).
In either method if the sheet didn't advance far enough between each use of the perforator then you could get uneven spacing of perforations such as a double row of perforations.
If the sheet advanced too far you could get "imperf between" varieties.
If the sheet were only line perforated in one direction you could get horizontally or vertically imperforate varieties.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Hi Harvey,
Here's an example from http://www.stampsofvictoria.com/perforation.php showing a block of stamps from Victoria:
Here you can see the results of a vertical comb perforator where I guess there has been too much play in the machine allowing the comb to move up or down relative to the sheet between perforations.
The horizontal spacing isn't great either!
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
20 Jan 2020
06:43:39pm
re: Is this some sort of Error
Thanks - I understand now. I assume things are done in one step now and the perfs are probably punched out. I've seen examples where the sheet has been folded somehow and the perfs were punched out in weird patterns. There's really not much that you people don't know. I really think that the one double perfed on almost every side would be done by someone just having a good time with the machine.
Login to Like
this post
re: Is this some sort of Error
Line perforator info can be found here http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_LinePerforations.html
Don
Login to Like
this post