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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Stamp Certification

 

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dani20
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13 Jan 2020
05:13:11pm
Does anyone know if any expert has stepped up to fill the void left by the death of Bill Weiss? Weiss provided his own certifications at very reasonable prices, far lower than the
current prices charged by the organizations who offer certifications.
Dan C.
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vinman
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13 Jan 2020
06:59:27pm
re: Stamp Certification

Dan,
I copied this from Frank Kaplan's site. He sells as 'Mr. Fancy cancel'. He recommends Bill Crow.

"W T (Bill) Crowe is an independent philatelic expert and we've been using him for a while. He is faster and less expensive than the PF or PSE and has been an expert for a number of the agencies. With the passing of Bill Weiss, Bill Crowe fills a much needed spot. You can contact him at wtcrowe@aol.com. Tell him Frank sent you :-)"



Vince

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dani20
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13 Jan 2020
08:06:44pm
re: Stamp Certification

Much obliged Vince. Would you like me to mention your name as well as Frank's?
Thanks again,
Dan

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vinman
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13 Jan 2020
08:26:24pm
re: Stamp Certification

No,
Bill don't know me.

Vince

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dani20
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13 Jan 2020
08:40:42pm
re: Stamp Certification

Clearly his loss.
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1898

05 Jan 2023
09:14:01pm
re: Stamp Certification

As I see it all independent philatelic experts is a major problem! As with Mr. Weiss his certs. are no longer valid, because they cannot be challenged. I have every respect for Mr. Weiss, we communicated on a number of issues, but he is dead.

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

08 Jan 2023
05:41:54pm
re: Stamp Certification

I really don't understand. If Weiss ran a certification company, even if he was a company of only himself, why would his certificates no longer be valid? People die and that doesn't imply that anything they did during their lifetime becomes null and void. Can someone explain this to me?
As an antique dealer I was asked my "opinion" about items on a regular basis. But it was only an opinion, not in writing and not binding. Mr. Weiss offered certificates and they should still be in effect, my opinion only!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
1898

08 Jan 2023
06:16:46pm
re: Stamp Certification

Harvey, it's really simple, as the independent stamp expert who is dead you can not challenge his opinion..

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StampCollector
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08 Jan 2023
06:35:51pm

Approvals
re: Stamp Certification

I guess that 1898 is stating his opinion.
My opinion is that he's 100% wrong.
By his reasoning if the APS was to go out of business, all of their certificates would be no good
because they can't be challenged.

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

08 Jan 2023
06:41:30pm
re: Stamp Certification

My point exactly Tony. You have a right to challenge a opinion by getting a second opinion from another person but that doesn't make the first opinion, or certificate, invalid. That means, as you say, total chaos if a certifier for a particular company dies or even retires!!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
1898

08 Jan 2023
10:56:35pm
re: Stamp Certification

@Stampcollector, thank you for your reply, my point was a single stamp expert, not a company of more than one expert. A company of experts their certs. can be questioned. A dead independent expert certs. cannot be questioned!

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dani20
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09 Jan 2023
06:30:37am
re: Stamp Certification

Just as a sidenote, Bill Weiss was also used by the APS as a certifier in the early years, then as a stampdealer in later years he eventually used his expertise through his own company and offered his own certifications through that company. Politically, that put him into competition with the long time certification organizations who really didn't like it. His certs have so far stood the test of time and scrutiny.
Just saying!!
Dan C.

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johnmca99
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09 Jan 2023
07:57:36am
re: Stamp Certification

I am in total agreement with Dan Tony and Joseph
I cannot see any logical reason why an expert's Certification automatically comes into question when he dies, as is stated by 1898. Whether in the land of art or stamps etc. there are individuals who are expert in their particular field and their certifications are accepted.
John

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sheepshanks
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09 Jan 2023
08:40:18am
re: Stamp Certification

Folks, I think that what 1898 is saying/meaning is that you cannot go back to Bill and question him on his certificate.
But why would you need to declare a previous certificate, just send the stamp and get a fresh one from a new certifier. There does not appear to be a central register of certificates so how will anyone know.

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

09 Jan 2023
09:00:39am
re: Stamp Certification

I have a cover signed on the back as genuine by Herman Hearst ... guess I'm in a heap of trouble! Surprise

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vinman
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09 Jan 2023
09:12:42am
re: Stamp Certification

I agree with 1898 and sheepshanks. 1898 stated

"the independent stamp expert who is dead you can not challenge his opinion."


If you want to have a stamp recertified, then get a new cert. It happens all the time.
I have known Bill Weiss many years and he had no problem if you disagreed with his "opinion". He was always happy to recheck a stamp if you believed it was misidentified. Bill Weiss is dead so he can't do that anymore.
I am sure any of the groups that do certification now will always reconsider their "opinion" if you feel that they got it wrong. I have used the APS and The Philatelic Foundation just to confirm my belief of what I had. Sometimes I was right and at times I was wrong.
I bought many stamps from Bill Weiss and I sold stamps in Bill Weiss' auctions. The more valuable stamps he suggested to get a certificate from the APS or Philatelic Foundation so there could not be a conflict of interest in the stamps he was selling. He was an honest dealer, he could have a strong opinion at times but was always willing to listen and reconsider.
Vince

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

09 Jan 2023
02:17:16pm
re: Stamp Certification

I've been thinking a lot lately about what kind of crappy philatelist I really am. I am very trusting and sometimes buy items without quadruple checking whether they are what they are purported to be. Should I be suspicious of every stamp I buy that isn't certified or should I just enjoy the hobby? For example, I recently bought BC #1 on the written assurance it came from Maresch Auctions, Sale 12828, lot 85 without even bothering to check. This could have been a lie, but I've been dealing with the seller and his father since 1972. Should I have passed up the stamp and demanded more proof? I just bought a copy of Newfoundland airmail #C18, an often faked overprint, because the seller trusted the person he bought it from and I trust the seller!! Should I have passed up the stamp unless I had a certificate? I could probably cite many more cases where I went on trust instead of a certificate. This is a hobby that is supposed to be fun, and I enjoy it very much. If we spend all of our "hobby time" scared and paranoid then the fun would disappear and it would be more like a job. If I get a bad feeling about a stamp or seller I pass it up! I've probably made some mistakes, but I think I can live with that!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
Laeding
Members Picture


09 Jan 2023
10:03:34pm
re: Stamp Certification

Some ramblings while watching a blowout in the college football championship game tonight...

Having had the privilege at an early age (college years) of working for a well-known auction house and having no more knowledge than the kid sending a dollar for a selection of approvals from H.E. Harris when I started, I was able to see a quite a bit of material first-hand and how the house (and others) went about expertizing.

This will seem pretty obvious: When purchasing a stamp with a certificate from a dealer/auction house/fellow collector, make certain that the stamp pictured on the certificate depicts the stamp that comes with it!!

If the individual who issued the certificate is dead or retired, it doesn't mean the certificate isn't "good," but, as previously stated, it cannot be "challenged" by sending it back said individual.

Just because the certificate was issued by a noted expert/organization certainly doesn't mean it is correct. Use your eyes and knowledge, and/or, if possible, cross-check the item with someone who knows the area.

Some "experts" should have put away their tongs a few years earlier. It isn't believed that they intentionally made errors, they just happened more frequently.

Does the expertizer have a reference collection in the area of expertise? If not...

Does the expertizer consult with others if she or he has a question regarding an item? This isn't an issue for organizations, but may be for individuals.

Certificates from some experts or organizations carry little to no weight with many of the top auction houses and dealers, and those items are simply submitted to more "prominent" experts for new certs. Note, this isn't necessarily a case of trying to get a "better" opinions, but to get certs that simply carry more weight and thus are more marketable in hopes of garnering stronger bids. We would hold the old certs until the new ones came in, and, depending on the situation, often included both certs with the items if they were in agreement. Some certs were immediately tossed in the trash as the "expert" wasn't well-known or known at all. It should also be noted that it doesn't mean any of the other "experts" are/were wrong, it's just that a more "marketable" certificate was desired. Granting extensions for certificates was common if buyers/bidders requested them, but we did have to agree on where the material was being sent for review. We were fortunate to have a number of "experts" in the area (many on expertizing committees) who would review items with or without certificates and offer their opinions and who to send the material to if warranted.

Graded Certificates: If someone wants a stamp to be graded and assigned a numerical value, great.

Submit to the appropriate expert. Sounds obvious, but sending to the wrong place happens too frequently. Not sure where to send? Follow Dan's lead and ask!

Submitting "inexpensive" items for review: Some will say to never do this. Personally, I'll do it for certain items to help confirm something specific, such as as shade or the genuineness of a cancel. It's my collection, and I'll submit if I want to!

Some dealers will submit an item on your behalf. Ask! It will typically cost less. Make certain you understand which party's insurance is responsible, though.

Before submitting material to an individual/organization, make 100% sure you understand what the terms are. Confirm the best way to ship material, too.

@Harvey may be on to something with his thoughts...collecting for the pure enjoyment and not worrying about the "other stuff!"


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ScottEnglish

09 Jan 2023
10:05:57pm
re: Stamp Certification

FWIW, Bill Weiss did do certs for the APS, but I don't think that put him at odds with us when he issued his own. The same is true of Bill Crowe, who is a valuable member of the APS Expert Committee.

Please note, these are ultimately opinions of stamp experts. When we issue a certification, it might be reviewed by one expert if it's a straightforward stamp. Roughly 60 percent of our stamps are reviewed by more than one expert to pick up specific details, whether it's confirming the coloration, examining the perforations or the back, etc. If those two experts disagree, we send to a third for arbitration. The APS guarantees the opinions and we prefer to provide a confirmed opinion rather than send back with none.

My best advice to anyone is if you're making a big investment (this varies to the collector), get the expert opinion as quickly as possible and communicate to the seller you are doing so to reserve your right to return. The seller may have certain policies on agreeable experts or time to get the certificate completed, so please know the terms before you spend the money.


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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

09 Jan 2023
10:27:05pm
re: Stamp Certification

"@Harvey may be on to something with his thoughts...collecting for the pure enjoyment and not worrying about the "other stuff!" "


For me stamp collecting is not done as an investment, it's done because I enjoy the history hidden in these little pieces of paper. I collect many other things for the same reason. My wife and I were considered to be somewhat expert in glass and china, but I really don't claim to be an expert on stamps, I'm not uneducated in the area, just not an expert! When I'm no longer around to enjoy the hobby my collection goes to my long time dealer to sell for his gain and for the charities I have picked. If there are a few "mistakes" I'm sure he can figure it out and not hold it against me. A lot of the collection he knows very well and the mistakes should be few! We all make mistakes and have to live with them!
To finish this ramble, the definition of an expert: “An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.” - Nickolas Butler

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
        

 

Author/Postings
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dani20

13 Jan 2020
05:13:11pm

Does anyone know if any expert has stepped up to fill the void left by the death of Bill Weiss? Weiss provided his own certifications at very reasonable prices, far lower than the
current prices charged by the organizations who offer certifications.
Dan C.

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vinman

13 Jan 2020
06:59:27pm

re: Stamp Certification

Dan,
I copied this from Frank Kaplan's site. He sells as 'Mr. Fancy cancel'. He recommends Bill Crow.

"W T (Bill) Crowe is an independent philatelic expert and we've been using him for a while. He is faster and less expensive than the PF or PSE and has been an expert for a number of the agencies. With the passing of Bill Weiss, Bill Crowe fills a much needed spot. You can contact him at wtcrowe@aol.com. Tell him Frank sent you :-)"



Vince

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dani20

13 Jan 2020
08:06:44pm

re: Stamp Certification

Much obliged Vince. Would you like me to mention your name as well as Frank's?
Thanks again,
Dan

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vinman

13 Jan 2020
08:26:24pm

re: Stamp Certification

No,
Bill don't know me.

Vince

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dani20

13 Jan 2020
08:40:42pm

re: Stamp Certification

Clearly his loss.
Thumbs Up

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1898

05 Jan 2023
09:14:01pm

re: Stamp Certification

As I see it all independent philatelic experts is a major problem! As with Mr. Weiss his certs. are no longer valid, because they cannot be challenged. I have every respect for Mr. Weiss, we communicated on a number of issues, but he is dead.

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jan 2023
05:41:54pm

re: Stamp Certification

I really don't understand. If Weiss ran a certification company, even if he was a company of only himself, why would his certificates no longer be valid? People die and that doesn't imply that anything they did during their lifetime becomes null and void. Can someone explain this to me?
As an antique dealer I was asked my "opinion" about items on a regular basis. But it was only an opinion, not in writing and not binding. Mr. Weiss offered certificates and they should still be in effect, my opinion only!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
1898

08 Jan 2023
06:16:46pm

re: Stamp Certification

Harvey, it's really simple, as the independent stamp expert who is dead you can not challenge his opinion..

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StampCollector

08 Jan 2023
06:35:51pm

Approvals

re: Stamp Certification

I guess that 1898 is stating his opinion.
My opinion is that he's 100% wrong.
By his reasoning if the APS was to go out of business, all of their certificates would be no good
because they can't be challenged.

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jan 2023
06:41:30pm

re: Stamp Certification

My point exactly Tony. You have a right to challenge a opinion by getting a second opinion from another person but that doesn't make the first opinion, or certificate, invalid. That means, as you say, total chaos if a certifier for a particular company dies or even retires!!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
1898

08 Jan 2023
10:56:35pm

re: Stamp Certification

@Stampcollector, thank you for your reply, my point was a single stamp expert, not a company of more than one expert. A company of experts their certs. can be questioned. A dead independent expert certs. cannot be questioned!

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dani20

09 Jan 2023
06:30:37am

re: Stamp Certification

Just as a sidenote, Bill Weiss was also used by the APS as a certifier in the early years, then as a stampdealer in later years he eventually used his expertise through his own company and offered his own certifications through that company. Politically, that put him into competition with the long time certification organizations who really didn't like it. His certs have so far stood the test of time and scrutiny.
Just saying!!
Dan C.

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johnmca99

09 Jan 2023
07:57:36am

re: Stamp Certification

I am in total agreement with Dan Tony and Joseph
I cannot see any logical reason why an expert's Certification automatically comes into question when he dies, as is stated by 1898. Whether in the land of art or stamps etc. there are individuals who are expert in their particular field and their certifications are accepted.
John

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sheepshanks

09 Jan 2023
08:40:18am

re: Stamp Certification

Folks, I think that what 1898 is saying/meaning is that you cannot go back to Bill and question him on his certificate.
But why would you need to declare a previous certificate, just send the stamp and get a fresh one from a new certifier. There does not appear to be a central register of certificates so how will anyone know.

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
09 Jan 2023
09:00:39am

re: Stamp Certification

I have a cover signed on the back as genuine by Herman Hearst ... guess I'm in a heap of trouble! Surprise

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vinman

09 Jan 2023
09:12:42am

re: Stamp Certification

I agree with 1898 and sheepshanks. 1898 stated

"the independent stamp expert who is dead you can not challenge his opinion."


If you want to have a stamp recertified, then get a new cert. It happens all the time.
I have known Bill Weiss many years and he had no problem if you disagreed with his "opinion". He was always happy to recheck a stamp if you believed it was misidentified. Bill Weiss is dead so he can't do that anymore.
I am sure any of the groups that do certification now will always reconsider their "opinion" if you feel that they got it wrong. I have used the APS and The Philatelic Foundation just to confirm my belief of what I had. Sometimes I was right and at times I was wrong.
I bought many stamps from Bill Weiss and I sold stamps in Bill Weiss' auctions. The more valuable stamps he suggested to get a certificate from the APS or Philatelic Foundation so there could not be a conflict of interest in the stamps he was selling. He was an honest dealer, he could have a strong opinion at times but was always willing to listen and reconsider.
Vince

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Jan 2023
02:17:16pm

re: Stamp Certification

I've been thinking a lot lately about what kind of crappy philatelist I really am. I am very trusting and sometimes buy items without quadruple checking whether they are what they are purported to be. Should I be suspicious of every stamp I buy that isn't certified or should I just enjoy the hobby? For example, I recently bought BC #1 on the written assurance it came from Maresch Auctions, Sale 12828, lot 85 without even bothering to check. This could have been a lie, but I've been dealing with the seller and his father since 1972. Should I have passed up the stamp and demanded more proof? I just bought a copy of Newfoundland airmail #C18, an often faked overprint, because the seller trusted the person he bought it from and I trust the seller!! Should I have passed up the stamp unless I had a certificate? I could probably cite many more cases where I went on trust instead of a certificate. This is a hobby that is supposed to be fun, and I enjoy it very much. If we spend all of our "hobby time" scared and paranoid then the fun would disappear and it would be more like a job. If I get a bad feeling about a stamp or seller I pass it up! I've probably made some mistakes, but I think I can live with that!

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
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Laeding

09 Jan 2023
10:03:34pm

re: Stamp Certification

Some ramblings while watching a blowout in the college football championship game tonight...

Having had the privilege at an early age (college years) of working for a well-known auction house and having no more knowledge than the kid sending a dollar for a selection of approvals from H.E. Harris when I started, I was able to see a quite a bit of material first-hand and how the house (and others) went about expertizing.

This will seem pretty obvious: When purchasing a stamp with a certificate from a dealer/auction house/fellow collector, make certain that the stamp pictured on the certificate depicts the stamp that comes with it!!

If the individual who issued the certificate is dead or retired, it doesn't mean the certificate isn't "good," but, as previously stated, it cannot be "challenged" by sending it back said individual.

Just because the certificate was issued by a noted expert/organization certainly doesn't mean it is correct. Use your eyes and knowledge, and/or, if possible, cross-check the item with someone who knows the area.

Some "experts" should have put away their tongs a few years earlier. It isn't believed that they intentionally made errors, they just happened more frequently.

Does the expertizer have a reference collection in the area of expertise? If not...

Does the expertizer consult with others if she or he has a question regarding an item? This isn't an issue for organizations, but may be for individuals.

Certificates from some experts or organizations carry little to no weight with many of the top auction houses and dealers, and those items are simply submitted to more "prominent" experts for new certs. Note, this isn't necessarily a case of trying to get a "better" opinions, but to get certs that simply carry more weight and thus are more marketable in hopes of garnering stronger bids. We would hold the old certs until the new ones came in, and, depending on the situation, often included both certs with the items if they were in agreement. Some certs were immediately tossed in the trash as the "expert" wasn't well-known or known at all. It should also be noted that it doesn't mean any of the other "experts" are/were wrong, it's just that a more "marketable" certificate was desired. Granting extensions for certificates was common if buyers/bidders requested them, but we did have to agree on where the material was being sent for review. We were fortunate to have a number of "experts" in the area (many on expertizing committees) who would review items with or without certificates and offer their opinions and who to send the material to if warranted.

Graded Certificates: If someone wants a stamp to be graded and assigned a numerical value, great.

Submit to the appropriate expert. Sounds obvious, but sending to the wrong place happens too frequently. Not sure where to send? Follow Dan's lead and ask!

Submitting "inexpensive" items for review: Some will say to never do this. Personally, I'll do it for certain items to help confirm something specific, such as as shade or the genuineness of a cancel. It's my collection, and I'll submit if I want to!

Some dealers will submit an item on your behalf. Ask! It will typically cost less. Make certain you understand which party's insurance is responsible, though.

Before submitting material to an individual/organization, make 100% sure you understand what the terms are. Confirm the best way to ship material, too.

@Harvey may be on to something with his thoughts...collecting for the pure enjoyment and not worrying about the "other stuff!"


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ScottEnglish

09 Jan 2023
10:05:57pm

re: Stamp Certification

FWIW, Bill Weiss did do certs for the APS, but I don't think that put him at odds with us when he issued his own. The same is true of Bill Crowe, who is a valuable member of the APS Expert Committee.

Please note, these are ultimately opinions of stamp experts. When we issue a certification, it might be reviewed by one expert if it's a straightforward stamp. Roughly 60 percent of our stamps are reviewed by more than one expert to pick up specific details, whether it's confirming the coloration, examining the perforations or the back, etc. If those two experts disagree, we send to a third for arbitration. The APS guarantees the opinions and we prefer to provide a confirmed opinion rather than send back with none.

My best advice to anyone is if you're making a big investment (this varies to the collector), get the expert opinion as quickly as possible and communicate to the seller you are doing so to reserve your right to return. The seller may have certain policies on agreeable experts or time to get the certificate completed, so please know the terms before you spend the money.


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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Jan 2023
10:27:05pm

re: Stamp Certification

"@Harvey may be on to something with his thoughts...collecting for the pure enjoyment and not worrying about the "other stuff!" "


For me stamp collecting is not done as an investment, it's done because I enjoy the history hidden in these little pieces of paper. I collect many other things for the same reason. My wife and I were considered to be somewhat expert in glass and china, but I really don't claim to be an expert on stamps, I'm not uneducated in the area, just not an expert! When I'm no longer around to enjoy the hobby my collection goes to my long time dealer to sell for his gain and for the charities I have picked. If there are a few "mistakes" I'm sure he can figure it out and not hold it against me. A lot of the collection he knows very well and the mistakes should be few! We all make mistakes and have to live with them!
To finish this ramble, the definition of an expert: “An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.” - Nickolas Butler

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""We have multiplied our possessions but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living but not a life. We’ve added years to life, not life to years." George Carlin"
        

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