Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I'm returning to the hobby after several decades, and am hoarding the remaining, dwindling stash of Dennison's I have. I've tested several brands and find them so disappointing.
I heard somewhere that all the current brands are manufactured at the same place anyway - does anyone know anything about this?
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I rarely use hinges, and you're right, they all suck. 99% of my stamps are in split-back mounts. When I do use hinges, I use the Prinz brand. I use very little moisture to hopefully prevent damage to the stamp should I have to remove the hinge later. That doesn't always work, and the stamp is damaged anyway, but less moisture works better than alot of it.
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A pox on hinges! You have to soak them all off nowadays, which is a freakin’ hassle, so I avoid buying hinged material if at all possible. Exception - old time collections. Many of those were mounted with peelable hinges anyways.
Dang I miss Dennison's, sniff! I remember reading about attempts being made to duplicate their glue formula with minimal success. Too bad we can’t enlist 3M and their glue experts to solve the problem.
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All modern hinges are far too aggressive and require very small amounts of moisture to make them close to usable. There is no telling how many stamps and album pages have been ruined by modern hinges. Before buying any collection I always check the hinge type and either do not buy or discount the amount of time it will take to rip the pages apart and soak everything.
Many folks have tried to emulate the vintage Dennison hinges without success (including on the original Dennison equipment). Various urban legends have been floating around on why easy peel-able hinges have not been imitated but the current consensus is that Dennison used several layers of textured adhesive. The layers combined with the slightly textured surface was what made them easily separate once dry.
More info here http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Gen_Dennison.html
Vintage Dennison hinges have been a far better investment than virtual any stamps over the years. Dennison hinges have appreciated in value well over 4000% since the early 1970s.
Don
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Hinges on stamps sometimes reminds me of tree rings as collector just layer them rather than soak them. Some have a permanent curved set.
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Another damage that occurs is on more modern stamps, say from the 1970s onward. Many countries use a paper that is stiffer than wove paper. The hinge leave a bump on the paper that defaces the stamp. Note too, that not all "green" stamp hinges are Dennison. Some of those are just as deadly to stamps as the other non-Dennison stamp hinges are.
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I have found some stamps in older albums I've been given that literally tear the stamp when you try to remove them - and others that I have actually re-used (warning for the faint-hearted: I still lick the hinges, even used ones - it helps strengthen my immune system).
Question: Are these the "Dennison" hinges everyone is referring to? Note the spelling "Dennisen" here - are these just a knock-off?
I have further info on these hinges but will wait until I get feedback as it would be useless to everyone if these are not the correct hinges.
Dave.
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I have 5 packs of Dennison hinges that I am using sparingly.
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Dave, that must be a knock-off. Here's an actual photo, and it is Dennison's with an "o".
Musicman - ditto - I am hoarding mine!
I can't afford to use mounts for every stamp, and the news I am hearing from you all is exceedingly discouraging.
If they can make post-it notes, why can't they make removable stamp hinge adhesive? I'm sure "they" could, if there were enough profit motivation in it for them....
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Wow, the knockoff thing is pretty scummy. Too bad Dennison hasn’t sued Dennisen for hijacking the name and design then using the phrase “The Original Hinge”.
My wife’s friend is an Executive with 3M in Canada. I’ll ask her about stamp hinges and let everyone know the answer (although I suspect I know the answer).
Dave
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Dave, that would be awesome! Yes, we may already know the answer, but at least you have somewhat of a connection to put a toe in the door. Let them know there may be more of a market out there than they realize! 
How are the DennisEn hinges, by the way? I'm curious about the other information you alluded to?
"I have further info on these hinges but will wait until I get feedback as it would be useless to everyone if these are not the correct hinges."
Even though they are not the "correct" hinges.... what more can you tell us about them?
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The Dennisen hinges, note the e at the end, are very poor when it comes to letting go of the stamp and the album page. They, also, tend to curl quite readily during application. Very disappointing product.
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Good project for a winter day: Take all your remaining Dennison hinges and carefully cut them into thirds. From experience, one third of a Dennison is enough to hold virtually any stamp - have not tried on anything over standard commerorative size; the really big ones may be a problem. I had success cutting up to 3 or 4 at one time. Then again, I'm left-handed, so anything involving scissors is an adventure for me. But I did get in my Christmas stocking my own pair of Scissors for Southpaws, so I'll be more confident the next time I have to cut some.
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I have been fortunate enough to find ten packs of Scott stamp hinges,( at a show ) that I have been told
were made by Dennison.
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bobgggg,
I have 2 packages of those Scott hinges as well,
but have not had to resort to using them as yet.
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Folks:
Time to clear the air...
If you read the articles in the American Philatelist by Wayne Youngblood, a few years ago, you would know your peelable hinges are NOT coming back. Wayne stated that one of the chemicals used in the manufacture of the adhesive of all those old hinges is no longer available. Sometime in the mid-1980s they went off the market.
We do not know why the chemical is no longer available. Wayne speculated that it is no longer manufactured because it was either an environmental/health hazard, or that there was such little demand, that there was no practical financial reason for any company to continue to produce it.
All of that said, about two years ago, I did confirm with Lighthouse in Germany that they cannot make their hinges (Lighthouse calls their brand of hinges "Fasto") peelable like they could in the 1980s and before. Why? Some of the chemicals they used for the adhesive was no longer on the market.
Having tried many of the current brands of hinges in the past two years, I can confidently say, they are all the same. Clearly, none of them can get the "special chemical" that made them peelable in the old days. The current ones are barely peelable, if at all.
LEMAVEN: Those hinges you showed are not the original Dennison hinges. They are the knock-off brand that Unitrade of Toronto, Ontario, Canada sells. That is the only brand of hinge they now carry and the hinges are made for them by Prinz in Germany.
Incidentally, all of you know the current version of Dennison... They are Avery-Dennison. They print a host of self-adhesive labels to run through your printer, and they are also under contract by the United States Postal Service to print stamps.
I hope this helps.
David Giles
Retail Manager
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
(A real bricks and mortar shop)
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All we need to do is come up with some military application for that chemical and voila - it will be manufactured hell or high water!
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"Time to clear the air..."
Good Morning David,
What is the name of the chemical that is no longer available?
Don
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"... If they can make post-it notes ..."
Would someone like to start The Great Post-It Stamp Hinge experiment?
Oh, it would be easy enough to clip the glue strip of a Post-It note into stamp-sized bits.
The real problem is to find folks willing to measure & control temperature & humidity ... indefinitely.
I see two options:
1) firmly fold the gluey bits so as to make a true hinge, or
2) kiss the album page good bye, and glue the paper side of the Post-It to the page, and leave the sticky side exposed to receive the stamp.
Either way, I'm thinking that it would fail in a few years, but what do I know ?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who is guessing that Dennison never told Wayne the name of the chemical because they did not want to make life easy for their competitors should that chemical - or a benign analog - ever become readily commercially available again)
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Has the adhesive on post it notes ever been tested for long term archival use?
Also aren’t post it notes rather thick and bulky to use as a hinge?
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ikeyPikey
I have actually done a similar test. I used Elmer's Repositionable Craft Glue and applied these to mounts instead of using the adhesive on the mount. The consistency of the glue as applied is tacky like used on Post it notes. It applies like semi-soft wax and does not harden or penetrate the paper meaning there is no softening or anything. There is no smell. If it you get it on your hands, it is just tacky and washes easily.
It claims to be photo safe and I had put a sheet with mounts in the attic for a few months to see what would happem. Even after a few months, the mount generally held and mount popped off cleanly from page. There was really no residue on mount or page leaving an indication of application.
https://www.amazon.com/Elmers-CraftBond-Sticks-Repositionable-Ounces/dp/B004DNX6G0
I have actually mounted actual stamps IN MOUNTS in an album as a test but use at your own risk.
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ikey,
I am pretty sure that no one knows the name of the ‘we can’t get it anymore’ chemical. Historically this is a standard excuse used by endless suppliers when they fail to deliver something or when they are deliver a ‘new’ product which is subpar to an old one. It certainly and conveniently closes the door on anyone asking any hard questions.
I am far more cynical on this topic and think this is related to money, motivation and feasibility. The entire supply chain, from manufacturers to resellers, have a LOT of motivation to see 1 cent hinges go away and be replaced by 15 cent mounts. Add to this additional desire to also sell more stamps (to replace the millions which have been ruined by modern hinges) and countless numbers of new albums and album pages (ruined by overly aggressive modern hinges) and this effectively removes most all motivation to spend any money on developing a good peal-able hinge. I agree that the overwhelming majority (95%?) of hinges today are made by Prinz and repackaged for the other brands. But having a monopoly of the production of these only reinforces the desire to ‘stay the course’ for poor quality modern hinges; decent competition typically and often drives product improvements.
I must say that I do not buy into the opinion that there is a glue component that cannot be secured anymore. Chemical analysis can be done on the original hinges and any component of the glue and paper can easily be determined (down to the molecular level); the cost for this type analysis would only be a few thousand dollars. And if it was found to be a component that is no longer available there would be many replacement chemicals which could be used to replace the missing component.
I have previous been involved in the engineering side of many labels and adhesives and am familiar with what goes into developing adhesive based products. Peal-ability, pull tests, adhesion strength, durability, etc. are all straight forward, there is no rocket science here. My opinion is that the biggest challenge would be developing and complying with archival standards but developing a truly peal-able hinge is definitely achievable.
I maintain that this is about economics and the sad fact is that we, as a hobby, have not demanded a quality hinge. We seem to be willing to accept subpar modern hinges and/or costly mounts. The philatelic press does not cover this issue (and others) because their bread is buttered by their advertisers (manufacturers and resellers). Why is there not any pressure being brought to Unitrade to stop their DennisEn hinge deception? The philatelic press gladly accepts Unitrade advertising income so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to raise this issue.
I hate sounding like this but ultimately I think the answer here is ‘follow the money’.
Don
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Looking on the web for Dennison original patent, which I have not yet found, I came across this; US4921747A Benjamin A. Studley Studley Benjamin A
Priority 1988-06-06 • Filed 1988-06-06 • Granted 1990-05-01 • Published 1990-05-01 which describes a low tack hinge. Whether this ever got manufactured I have no idea.
There is a pdf of the patent available.
Vaguely remember reading somewhere, that the original hinges used an animal glue which health regulations no longer allow.
Just found this on the Subway catalogue pdf.
In 1998 Subway added Blue Rose to its product line manufacturing and packaging Manila stockbooks, Stamp Mounts and other accessories. In 1999 Subway purchased the old Dennison stamp hinge machines. We hope to be manufacturing (in early 2000) stamp hinges similiar in quality to the old hinges.
Maybe they can give us an answer.
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Or perhaps the answer is less sinister and less of a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is simply that the market demand is constantly shrinking and doesn’t look like a profitable investment to any manufacturer.
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sheepshanks,
Yes, that was one of the urban legends but animal glues are still used today; you can buy them on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/lovermusic-Animal-Luthier-Violin-Maker/dp/B07DPDFS89/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Animal+glue&qid=1578511591&sr=8-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue
I think I have several hinge (pre-Dennison around 1880s) patent files around somewhere, I will see if I can dig them up.
Don
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Philatelia,
Please help me understand how “money, motivation and feasibility” are considered ‘sinister and a conspiracy theory’. No conspiracy and nothing sinister, it is simply capitalism by a monopoly and folks looking out for their bottom line.
Don
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"I hate sounding like this but ultimately I think the answer here is ‘follow the money?"
Not to be cynical, but I absolutely agree. C'mon, people, if we can put a man on the moon....
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Have edited my above post as it appears that Subway owns the Dennison machine.
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“Philatelia,
Please help me understand how “money, motivation and feasibility” are considered ‘sinister and a conspiracy theory’. No conspiracy and nothing sinister, it is simply capitalism by a monopoly and folks looking out for their bottom line.
Don”
Sorry I worded that very poorly! Apologies! I SHOULD have just said maybe the problem is less about forcing collectors to use more expensive systems and may be just ... blah blah blah.
No offense meant!
I’m in bed with a bug, chills and shakes - I think my brain is addled!
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sheep,
Yes, this is noted in the link to the article I wrote on Stamp Smarter. Subway not only purchased the equipment but also purchased the rest of the IP that went with it including leftover materials and documentation.
But after numerous failed attempts my understanding is that they came to the conclusion that they were also missing detailed process information. There is a chance that the people who ran the equipment used undocumented experience to make truly peal-able hinges.
If you have ever been around a manufacturing floor the folks working on the production lines always have tips/tricks/experiences which never get documented. When you work with them you can hear things like, "wait until you see a little puff of steam that comes out here before you release the pressure".
The original human operators used at Dennison were no longer alive or could not be found so Subway could not retrieve additional process information. I am sure Subway would have liked to be able to recoup their Dennison investment but they gave up and ate it instead. Last I heard they still own it but it is nothing more than boat anchors.
Don
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Don, that makes sense, most long term machine or process operators know how to get the best results and not always by following laid down procedures.
I have emailed Subway but doubt I will get a reply, certainly not to the philatelic worlds satisfaction anyway.
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Here are a few links to "hinges",
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/file/pcpm/subsidiary_19.pdf
"post it notes"
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/file/pcpm/subsidiary_15.pdf
Complete list of "Preservation and Care of Philatelic Materials"
https://classic.stamps.org/Preservation-and-Care
Vince
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RE: Post-it Notes
To use as hinges, I think it will cause a bigger "bump" on the location of the stamp than a hinge does, due to the thickness of the Post-It Note compared to a stamp hinge.
In my project of replacing the Scott album pages in my album collection, I have used Post-It Notes as tabs so that I can easily find the next group of pages needed. I can say that on many of the Scott International Album pages, when I remove the Post-It Note from the page I had one or both of the following happen quite frequently:
- some of the printed page border came off with the Post-it Note
- the album page was thinned where the Post-it Note was attached
The longer the Post-it Note was attached to the page, the worse the damage. However, never did a Post-it Note adhere to a page and not come off, and no thinning was bad enough to create a hole on the album page.
Like anything else that is not designed for hobby use, try it out on used and unused cheap/damaged items first. I suggest leaving the Post-it Note on a stamp for at least a month or two to give the adhesive a chance to interact with the stamp. If you have album pages that you don't need, attach one to that as well to see what happens. Better to ruin unneeded items than that inverted Jenny!
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07:12:22pm
If I understand it right, Dennison stopped manufacturing
its wonderful peelable hinges about 1985 or so and by 1999,
Subway was unable to find anyone who, having worked at the
Dennison factory,
had any real knowledge of the glue manufacturing process,
alive or dead.
I notice that there was an increase in the annual number
of reported alien temporary abductions and examinations
in the Framingham area during the summer of 1986.
Hmmm, could there be a connection ?
Is that the real conspiracy?
I am sure visiting alien spaceships have paperwork to
maintain for their reports when they return to the orbiting
motherhip and secret base on the darkside of the moon.
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The only likely way a better hinge would become available was if there is some other use that needs a similar product. The Elmer's glue was developed for crafting so there must be financial justification. I doubt Prinz wants to spend any time on it.
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Charlie’s rapier-like wit aside, hinges were a tiny part of the Dennison manufacturing product line. Dennison was founded in 1844 as a jewelry and watch-box manufacturing. By the early 1860s it had grown into a significant manufacturer cardboard jewelry boxes but also paper display cards and all kinds of paper tags. In 1863 they secured a patent for using a paper washer on each side of an eyelet to reinforce a tag and this design allowed them to sell ten million tags. This allowed them to become a huge company. Tying the little strings to each tag also drove considerable employment opportunities but times being what they were it lead to children being used to these tasks. As they grew, Dennison branched out into a large amount of additional paper products like crepe paper (you know, textured paper) by the turn of the century. This included all kinds of holiday favors and other stationary type products but it was not until the late 1920s did they venture into making stamp hinges.
During the period of 1930 -1970 Dennison had thousands of products in their product line; hinges were a very tiny fraction of what they produced. I doubt there were more than a handful of people who were involved with hinge production in what had grown into a huge multinational company. By the time that Subway purchased the old equipment in the 1990s Avery had merged with Dennison; I am unsure if the original operators had retired by them or not. But I doubt that Avery-Dennison would open their employee files for Subway nor would I think that Avery-Dennison would want to offer any existing employees new job opportunities at Subway.
Don
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My follow-up on this very informative discussion....
1. The mysterious chemical discussed is unknown. Wayne Youngblood didn't now what it was. My contact at Lighthouse in Germany did not know either. It has been off the market for a good 30 years, so who knows what it was or why it was taken off the market.
2. The Post-it notes leave a residue on the stamp. So will the scotch "peelable" tape. No dealer that I know will purchase a collection mounted with either of those.
3. Hinges and the economy... I doubt any company would invest in a new hinge. The research cost alone would put the hinges at $10 (Canadian, all prices in Canadian dollars). Here is why.
Last month, I ordered somemore Dennisen hinges from Unitrade for the shop.... back-ordered! Darn! Well, I have to have hinges to sell to my customers so I ordered some Lighthouse "Fasto" hinges. The Unitrade hinges are $4.95 a packet of 1000, the Lighthouse ones are $5.99 a packet of 1000. I have both on the shelf. When I had only the Lighthouse hinges on the floor, very few people would buy them... too expensive, I was told! I haven't sold any since the Unitrade ones are back on the shelf.
I have no doubt that very few of my customers would pay more than eight or nine dollars for a packet of hinges, peelable or not.
With that, you can see why a company would not invest in the research for something that sells for $6. you have to sell a lot of $6 packets of hinges to get your research investment back, and start making money.
As stated by 51 Studebaker: "During the period of 1930 -1970 Dennison had thousands of products in their product line; hinges were a very tiny fraction of what they produced."
Hinges are not a big part of the economy, or the stamp market. Fewer collectors use hinges. Until about three years ago, Unitrade sold three different brands of hinges. Now they only sell the one.
I sure would like to see a peelable hinge on the market, but I don't think it is going to happen. 
David Giles
Retail Manager
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Ont. Canada
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"... developing a truly peal-able hinge is definitely achievable ..."
So what makes a hinge peel-able?
Simply put, we want the hinge to stick to the stamp without the stamp sticking to the hinge.
Elaborating, we want the WAG (Water-Activated Gum) on the hinge to be activated while the WAG on the stamp is not.
One possibility is that the hinge WAG is more easily activated than the stamp WAG.
In this case, we would use very little spittle on the hinge, eg, just enough to activate the hinge WAG, without being enough spittle to activate the stamp WAG.
Maybe. My guess is that the honest recollections of folks who used Dennison hinges will be that they often overdid the spittle and, yet, the hinges peeled easily years later. So how can that be?
A second possibility is that the hinge WAG was formulated or deposited in such a way that excess moisture wicked away from the surface ... and down into the hinge WAG or the hinge substrate (eg the glassine).
This wicking would allow for the hinge WAG to be activated as its outermost layer (the one that made the join with the stamp WAG) without it being a source of migrating spittle that would activate the stamp WAG.
So how do you do that?
One way to achieve the wicking effect might be to dope the hinge WAG, eg, add something (the secret ingredient) that drew water molecules down into the hinge WAG layer. If I were paying some grad student to experiment on our behalf, I'd suggest s/he start with ... table salt.
Another way would have to do with the structure of the hinge WAG, be it the shape of the molecules or the way they pack together or the way they are deposited. Dunno what or how, but I am very familiar with the fact that how you build something can have a big impact on how it works.
"... I maintain that this is about economics ..."
I will agree that there are no powerful economic incentives to making a vastly better stamp hinge, leaving little hope that existing suppliers are gonna break out their checkbooks to meet the expenses for formulating, manufacturing, and distributing a vastly better stamp hinge.
However, that is not the only way to get things done.
There are people in this hobby who have the civic motivation & personal resources to fund such a project. And, then, there is crowd-sourcing.
In either case, we need a credible person to recruit other credible people to lead the effort.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Hi ikey,
I doubt that we can solve the hinge issue in a public forum and without serious discovery, investment, and testing but I think we can summarize some of the potential methodologies to achieving a peal-able hinge including mechanical, chemical, and biological solutions.
A mechanical type solution would involve reducing the adhesive strength by reducing the surface area. It is like the difference between sticking something to glass vs. sticking something to a brick. Here is an example of a smooth surface with maximum surface area.
Here is an example of a textured surface with much less surface area.
But note that this is tricky because the texture area can actually increase the amount of surface area IF the adhesive flows into the contours of the texture. It is critical that adhesive only be applied to the ‘high spots’ and not flow into the ‘valleys’.
Another possible mechanical solution is to use layers; think 2 ply tissue paper. You can control exactly how strong the two layers adhere to each other, allowing the bond to break apart no matter how much a person might slobber when licking the hinge.
Additionally I think there is a potential solution in using multiple layers of adhesive, so that the adhesive layers pull apart when shearing force is applied.
I am not a chemist so someone else will have to describe how potential adhesive solutions might work on a molecular level.
But I also think that there are some incredible potential biological solutions. Nature already has some intriguing adhesive solutions; for example consider a gecko’s sticky pads which allow them to adhere to a vertical glass windows yet also allow them to easily lift their foot to walk. Plus, "Gecko Hinges' seems like a great marketing name!
Don
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Gecko hinges! LOVE IT!
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I would definitely buy something called Gecko Hinges. Definitely. 
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01:03:16pm
No conspiracy ?
Shucks, there goes the book that I could sell
on my next trip to Roswell.
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Has there been any pronouncement by the APS on the removable 811 3M tape? It is archival safe, photo safe, and meets ISO Standard 18916. It is chemically neutral, and while I had a batch which some residue, it may have been manufacturing issue but 3M which I contacted had no further issues, and they never acknowledged the original issue I had reported. (so could it have been a counterfeit tape, or a temporary manufacturing glitch?)
I have been using them for years and while, in the back of my head, I believe that I am doing it temporarily, this is looking pretty permanent. I intended to replace them if there were any signs of trouble, which I cannot find so far. My temporary use looks awfully like permanent. And unlike Dennison (or any other hinge), it leaves NO mark whatsoever.
Of course all my valuable stamps are in housed in mounts, but there are a lot of other stamps I have been using the tape on, with full satisfaction.
I know collectors all have bad memories of the Scotch tape damage centuries ago, and are a conservative bunch resistant to untested technology, but this is possibly breakthrough modern technology from 3M. Curious if a testing task force was ever put in place by APS to make a final technical pronouncement? And if not, why not?
rrr...
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'
I would take the extra step of buying the tape from Uline, or a similar high-volume professional distributor, and not the lowest-priced reseller you can find on Amazon.
search: Scotch® Removable Magic™ Tape Boxed Refill
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/358878O/811-datablad.pdf ... the technical datasheet
Trigger warning: if you love English, put down your coffee before you look at the datasheet.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Interesting to note on the datasheet under "Characteristics", that the "Adhesive" is listed as "Post-It Acrylics". So we're back to Post-Its again......
This sounds worth a try to me - not for any expensive stamps of course, but I may give it a test run on some commons.
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I have never used hinges and never will. One of my pet peeves is removing hinge remnants from stamps by soaking the stamps in water.
There are other ways for mounting stamps on album pages that do not involve sticking adhesive materials on the stamp.
For me, the stockbooks work better. I can also scan my collection and be able to enjoy enlarged stamp images on my computer; then put the stamps back in glassine envelopes.
But , then I do not try to have a really complete collection and show the gaps in it.
There are different ways of collecting.
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In response to those who have said post-it notes are thick and bulky to use for hinges;
the idea here is not to use the Post-It notes, ultimately;
the test is for the adhesive - if it works, it could then be applied
to actual hinges.
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In my opinion, a valid number of testers would be around 50-75. In other words, to be able to say with a high level of confidence that an adhesive is suitable for use we would need at least 50-75 people to test it. This should cover enough different environmental conditions (ideally there would be a number of ‘extreme’ type condition in this small size such as attics and basements). The duration of the testing should ideally be several decades. Of course there are accelerated tests that could be performed if folks had the time and setup to do them. The good news is that if a person tests in extreme environments first (such as Al is doing), we may be able to quickly rule out some adhesives without more extensive testing efforts (if it quickly fails the test by leaving residue on stamp, tones, etc.).
Folks who post results should always note that they are experimenting and that ‘your results may vary’ to prevent others from making potentially damaging decisions in how they are mounting their materials. It is easy for a person to be using a online search engine and stumble upon a post without much other context…the ‘I read it in the internet so it must be true’ crowd.
Don
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The testing has already been done. No need to try and reinvent the wheel. Post it notes are bad for philatelic uses. The adhesive is permanent and will damage what it comes in contact with.
Post it notes
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/file/pcpm/subsidiary_15.pdf
Here is a list (again) of products that have already been tested.
https://classic.stamps.org/Preservation-and-Care
I didn't just stumble across this information, it comes from the American Philatelic Society. If you don't trust their results, who will you trust?
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12:48:11pm
" .... who will you trust? ...."
Is that a trick question ?
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Hi Vince,
My post was speaking of folks who post about the success they have had using modern adhesives. It has been well established that Post-it adhesive leaves a residue, I believe that this has been covered in a number of other threads going back several years both here and over in the SCF forum. There are also numerous articles and research papers that can be found which show that Post It Notes should not be used on anything considered archival.
I think it is important that some folks experiment with new ways to mount stamps; this is how the hobby moves forward. But I do not like to see folks post the result of their experiments and make it sound like they have found the solution (not saying that this happened in this thread). My post above was referring to these kinds of anecdotal posts and observations.
Don
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3M 811 is NOT post it
Now temporary use is not the same as permanent, but I have used 3M 811 on stamps for 10 years or more (see prior discussions here and elsewhere, in particular with khd (kim), and as long as you understand it is temporary use (your definition of temporary) I see no problem continuing to do so. 3M does not claim it is for archival use (forever).
Your choice, stick a hinge on it or leave the stamp pristine with the capability of moving it around (but admit it is temporary)
rrr
I miss kim's contribution here.
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The 3M 811 is especially useful for mounting stamp mounts. I sometimes (OK, more than sometimes) will reprint an album page to correct errors (surprise, surprise) or change the layout and if the mounts are stuck in with the lick-em adhesive they are done. I use the 811 on them now and can move them from place to place with no problems. Cheaper than replacing mounts.
With regards to hinges, sometimes hinges can be removed by placing the stamp face down on a hard surface and rubbing the attached area of hinge on the back of the stamp with the back of tongs. It has seemed to me that on the ones which release the hinge adhesive is crystallized and the rubbing crushes the crystals and releases the hinge. Anyone else see that? If the hinge adhesive could be made so it would crystallize when dry it might be easier to remove.
Just some thoughts
Brian
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Brian,
This technique is described here http://stampsmarter.com/learning/HowToRemoveHinges.html
Don
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My stamp club, Mount Nittany Philatelic Society, (we meet the third Thursday 7:00 pm at the APS), performed a hinge test several months ago. Twelve members participated. We had twenty four different brands. It was a blind test, the hinges were in unmarked glassine envelope identified by a letter. We used low value mint U.S. stamps from the Great American Series. Each member had a sheet with twenty four boxes marked with the hinge letter.
Three months later we peeled our own stamps from the sheets and assigned a number according to how easy it was to peel each hinge from the stamp on a number scale of 1-5. Here are the results with the better hinges in bold numbers at the right column. As you can guess, Dennison was the winner with Tasco a close second.
This is a copy of the results.
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Interesting that the three lowest rated hinges were from Stanley Gibbons and Scott!
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Interesting. Hinges are a paper product so lots of variation - intentional or not.
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A test with one of those PH pens would be interesting if you still have access to the range.
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This is a report on hinge pH. It does not mention Prinz. The question is how many companies actually make them rather than who brands them to sell.
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/fil ...
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The good Dennison hinges are now selling for $30-40 dollars a pack on eBay! Given the high cost of hinges and mounts these days, maybe there's a good case to be made to store your stamp collection in stockbooks or stock pages...
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Speaking in another thread of missing Dennison's - what hinges does everyone use? Has anyone found anything remotely acceptable?
I'm returning to the hobby after several decades, and am hoarding the remaining, dwindling stash of Dennison's I have. I've tested several brands and find them so disappointing.
I heard somewhere that all the current brands are manufactured at the same place anyway - does anyone know anything about this?
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12:57:59pm
re: Hinges
I rarely use hinges, and you're right, they all suck. 99% of my stamps are in split-back mounts. When I do use hinges, I use the Prinz brand. I use very little moisture to hopefully prevent damage to the stamp should I have to remove the hinge later. That doesn't always work, and the stamp is damaged anyway, but less moisture works better than alot of it.
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re: Hinges
A pox on hinges! You have to soak them all off nowadays, which is a freakin’ hassle, so I avoid buying hinged material if at all possible. Exception - old time collections. Many of those were mounted with peelable hinges anyways.
Dang I miss Dennison's, sniff! I remember reading about attempts being made to duplicate their glue formula with minimal success. Too bad we can’t enlist 3M and their glue experts to solve the problem.
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re: Hinges
All modern hinges are far too aggressive and require very small amounts of moisture to make them close to usable. There is no telling how many stamps and album pages have been ruined by modern hinges. Before buying any collection I always check the hinge type and either do not buy or discount the amount of time it will take to rip the pages apart and soak everything.
Many folks have tried to emulate the vintage Dennison hinges without success (including on the original Dennison equipment). Various urban legends have been floating around on why easy peel-able hinges have not been imitated but the current consensus is that Dennison used several layers of textured adhesive. The layers combined with the slightly textured surface was what made them easily separate once dry.
More info here http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Gen_Dennison.html
Vintage Dennison hinges have been a far better investment than virtual any stamps over the years. Dennison hinges have appreciated in value well over 4000% since the early 1970s.
Don
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re: Hinges
Hinges on stamps sometimes reminds me of tree rings as collector just layer them rather than soak them. Some have a permanent curved set.
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05:47:10pm
re: Hinges
Another damage that occurs is on more modern stamps, say from the 1970s onward. Many countries use a paper that is stiffer than wove paper. The hinge leave a bump on the paper that defaces the stamp. Note too, that not all "green" stamp hinges are Dennison. Some of those are just as deadly to stamps as the other non-Dennison stamp hinges are.
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re: Hinges
I have found some stamps in older albums I've been given that literally tear the stamp when you try to remove them - and others that I have actually re-used (warning for the faint-hearted: I still lick the hinges, even used ones - it helps strengthen my immune system).
Question: Are these the "Dennison" hinges everyone is referring to? Note the spelling "Dennisen" here - are these just a knock-off?
I have further info on these hinges but will wait until I get feedback as it would be useless to everyone if these are not the correct hinges.
Dave.
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I have 5 packs of Dennison hinges that I am using sparingly.
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Dave, that must be a knock-off. Here's an actual photo, and it is Dennison's with an "o".
Musicman - ditto - I am hoarding mine!
I can't afford to use mounts for every stamp, and the news I am hearing from you all is exceedingly discouraging.
If they can make post-it notes, why can't they make removable stamp hinge adhesive? I'm sure "they" could, if there were enough profit motivation in it for them....
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Wow, the knockoff thing is pretty scummy. Too bad Dennison hasn’t sued Dennisen for hijacking the name and design then using the phrase “The Original Hinge”.
My wife’s friend is an Executive with 3M in Canada. I’ll ask her about stamp hinges and let everyone know the answer (although I suspect I know the answer).
Dave
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Dave, that would be awesome! Yes, we may already know the answer, but at least you have somewhat of a connection to put a toe in the door. Let them know there may be more of a market out there than they realize!
How are the DennisEn hinges, by the way? I'm curious about the other information you alluded to?
"I have further info on these hinges but will wait until I get feedback as it would be useless to everyone if these are not the correct hinges."
Even though they are not the "correct" hinges.... what more can you tell us about them?
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The Dennisen hinges, note the e at the end, are very poor when it comes to letting go of the stamp and the album page. They, also, tend to curl quite readily during application. Very disappointing product.
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07:21:00pm
re: Hinges
Good project for a winter day: Take all your remaining Dennison hinges and carefully cut them into thirds. From experience, one third of a Dennison is enough to hold virtually any stamp - have not tried on anything over standard commerorative size; the really big ones may be a problem. I had success cutting up to 3 or 4 at one time. Then again, I'm left-handed, so anything involving scissors is an adventure for me. But I did get in my Christmas stocking my own pair of Scissors for Southpaws, so I'll be more confident the next time I have to cut some.
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07:56:47pm
re: Hinges
I have been fortunate enough to find ten packs of Scott stamp hinges,( at a show ) that I have been told
were made by Dennison.
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re: Hinges
bobgggg,
I have 2 packages of those Scott hinges as well,
but have not had to resort to using them as yet.
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re: Hinges
Folks:
Time to clear the air...
If you read the articles in the American Philatelist by Wayne Youngblood, a few years ago, you would know your peelable hinges are NOT coming back. Wayne stated that one of the chemicals used in the manufacture of the adhesive of all those old hinges is no longer available. Sometime in the mid-1980s they went off the market.
We do not know why the chemical is no longer available. Wayne speculated that it is no longer manufactured because it was either an environmental/health hazard, or that there was such little demand, that there was no practical financial reason for any company to continue to produce it.
All of that said, about two years ago, I did confirm with Lighthouse in Germany that they cannot make their hinges (Lighthouse calls their brand of hinges "Fasto") peelable like they could in the 1980s and before. Why? Some of the chemicals they used for the adhesive was no longer on the market.
Having tried many of the current brands of hinges in the past two years, I can confidently say, they are all the same. Clearly, none of them can get the "special chemical" that made them peelable in the old days. The current ones are barely peelable, if at all.
LEMAVEN: Those hinges you showed are not the original Dennison hinges. They are the knock-off brand that Unitrade of Toronto, Ontario, Canada sells. That is the only brand of hinge they now carry and the hinges are made for them by Prinz in Germany.
Incidentally, all of you know the current version of Dennison... They are Avery-Dennison. They print a host of self-adhesive labels to run through your printer, and they are also under contract by the United States Postal Service to print stamps.
I hope this helps.
David Giles
Retail Manager
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
(A real bricks and mortar shop)
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All we need to do is come up with some military application for that chemical and voila - it will be manufactured hell or high water!
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"Time to clear the air..."
Good Morning David,
What is the name of the chemical that is no longer available?
Don
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"... If they can make post-it notes ..."
Would someone like to start The Great Post-It Stamp Hinge experiment?
Oh, it would be easy enough to clip the glue strip of a Post-It note into stamp-sized bits.
The real problem is to find folks willing to measure & control temperature & humidity ... indefinitely.
I see two options:
1) firmly fold the gluey bits so as to make a true hinge, or
2) kiss the album page good bye, and glue the paper side of the Post-It to the page, and leave the sticky side exposed to receive the stamp.
Either way, I'm thinking that it would fail in a few years, but what do I know ?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who is guessing that Dennison never told Wayne the name of the chemical because they did not want to make life easy for their competitors should that chemical - or a benign analog - ever become readily commercially available again)
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re: Hinges
Has the adhesive on post it notes ever been tested for long term archival use?
Also aren’t post it notes rather thick and bulky to use as a hinge?
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re: Hinges
ikeyPikey
I have actually done a similar test. I used Elmer's Repositionable Craft Glue and applied these to mounts instead of using the adhesive on the mount. The consistency of the glue as applied is tacky like used on Post it notes. It applies like semi-soft wax and does not harden or penetrate the paper meaning there is no softening or anything. There is no smell. If it you get it on your hands, it is just tacky and washes easily.
It claims to be photo safe and I had put a sheet with mounts in the attic for a few months to see what would happem. Even after a few months, the mount generally held and mount popped off cleanly from page. There was really no residue on mount or page leaving an indication of application.
https://www.amazon.com/Elmers-CraftBond-Sticks-Repositionable-Ounces/dp/B004DNX6G0
I have actually mounted actual stamps IN MOUNTS in an album as a test but use at your own risk.
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re: Hinges
ikey,
I am pretty sure that no one knows the name of the ‘we can’t get it anymore’ chemical. Historically this is a standard excuse used by endless suppliers when they fail to deliver something or when they are deliver a ‘new’ product which is subpar to an old one. It certainly and conveniently closes the door on anyone asking any hard questions.
I am far more cynical on this topic and think this is related to money, motivation and feasibility. The entire supply chain, from manufacturers to resellers, have a LOT of motivation to see 1 cent hinges go away and be replaced by 15 cent mounts. Add to this additional desire to also sell more stamps (to replace the millions which have been ruined by modern hinges) and countless numbers of new albums and album pages (ruined by overly aggressive modern hinges) and this effectively removes most all motivation to spend any money on developing a good peal-able hinge. I agree that the overwhelming majority (95%?) of hinges today are made by Prinz and repackaged for the other brands. But having a monopoly of the production of these only reinforces the desire to ‘stay the course’ for poor quality modern hinges; decent competition typically and often drives product improvements.
I must say that I do not buy into the opinion that there is a glue component that cannot be secured anymore. Chemical analysis can be done on the original hinges and any component of the glue and paper can easily be determined (down to the molecular level); the cost for this type analysis would only be a few thousand dollars. And if it was found to be a component that is no longer available there would be many replacement chemicals which could be used to replace the missing component.
I have previous been involved in the engineering side of many labels and adhesives and am familiar with what goes into developing adhesive based products. Peal-ability, pull tests, adhesion strength, durability, etc. are all straight forward, there is no rocket science here. My opinion is that the biggest challenge would be developing and complying with archival standards but developing a truly peal-able hinge is definitely achievable.
I maintain that this is about economics and the sad fact is that we, as a hobby, have not demanded a quality hinge. We seem to be willing to accept subpar modern hinges and/or costly mounts. The philatelic press does not cover this issue (and others) because their bread is buttered by their advertisers (manufacturers and resellers). Why is there not any pressure being brought to Unitrade to stop their DennisEn hinge deception? The philatelic press gladly accepts Unitrade advertising income so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to raise this issue.
I hate sounding like this but ultimately I think the answer here is ‘follow the money’.
Don
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Looking on the web for Dennison original patent, which I have not yet found, I came across this; US4921747A Benjamin A. Studley Studley Benjamin A
Priority 1988-06-06 • Filed 1988-06-06 • Granted 1990-05-01 • Published 1990-05-01 which describes a low tack hinge. Whether this ever got manufactured I have no idea.
There is a pdf of the patent available.
Vaguely remember reading somewhere, that the original hinges used an animal glue which health regulations no longer allow.
Just found this on the Subway catalogue pdf.
In 1998 Subway added Blue Rose to its product line manufacturing and packaging Manila stockbooks, Stamp Mounts and other accessories. In 1999 Subway purchased the old Dennison stamp hinge machines. We hope to be manufacturing (in early 2000) stamp hinges similiar in quality to the old hinges.
Maybe they can give us an answer.
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Or perhaps the answer is less sinister and less of a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is simply that the market demand is constantly shrinking and doesn’t look like a profitable investment to any manufacturer.
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sheepshanks,
Yes, that was one of the urban legends but animal glues are still used today; you can buy them on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/lovermusic-Animal-Luthier-Violin-Maker/dp/B07DPDFS89/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Animal+glue&qid=1578511591&sr=8-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue
I think I have several hinge (pre-Dennison around 1880s) patent files around somewhere, I will see if I can dig them up.
Don
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Philatelia,
Please help me understand how “money, motivation and feasibility” are considered ‘sinister and a conspiracy theory’. No conspiracy and nothing sinister, it is simply capitalism by a monopoly and folks looking out for their bottom line.
Don
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"I hate sounding like this but ultimately I think the answer here is ‘follow the money?"
Not to be cynical, but I absolutely agree. C'mon, people, if we can put a man on the moon....
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Have edited my above post as it appears that Subway owns the Dennison machine.
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“Philatelia,
Please help me understand how “money, motivation and feasibility” are considered ‘sinister and a conspiracy theory’. No conspiracy and nothing sinister, it is simply capitalism by a monopoly and folks looking out for their bottom line.
Don”
Sorry I worded that very poorly! Apologies! I SHOULD have just said maybe the problem is less about forcing collectors to use more expensive systems and may be just ... blah blah blah.
No offense meant!
I’m in bed with a bug, chills and shakes - I think my brain is addled!
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re: Hinges
sheep,
Yes, this is noted in the link to the article I wrote on Stamp Smarter. Subway not only purchased the equipment but also purchased the rest of the IP that went with it including leftover materials and documentation.
But after numerous failed attempts my understanding is that they came to the conclusion that they were also missing detailed process information. There is a chance that the people who ran the equipment used undocumented experience to make truly peal-able hinges.
If you have ever been around a manufacturing floor the folks working on the production lines always have tips/tricks/experiences which never get documented. When you work with them you can hear things like, "wait until you see a little puff of steam that comes out here before you release the pressure".
The original human operators used at Dennison were no longer alive or could not be found so Subway could not retrieve additional process information. I am sure Subway would have liked to be able to recoup their Dennison investment but they gave up and ate it instead. Last I heard they still own it but it is nothing more than boat anchors.
Don
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Don, that makes sense, most long term machine or process operators know how to get the best results and not always by following laid down procedures.
I have emailed Subway but doubt I will get a reply, certainly not to the philatelic worlds satisfaction anyway.
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re: Hinges
Here are a few links to "hinges",
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/file/pcpm/subsidiary_19.pdf
"post it notes"
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/file/pcpm/subsidiary_15.pdf
Complete list of "Preservation and Care of Philatelic Materials"
https://classic.stamps.org/Preservation-and-Care
Vince
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05:22:24pm
re: Hinges
RE: Post-it Notes
To use as hinges, I think it will cause a bigger "bump" on the location of the stamp than a hinge does, due to the thickness of the Post-It Note compared to a stamp hinge.
In my project of replacing the Scott album pages in my album collection, I have used Post-It Notes as tabs so that I can easily find the next group of pages needed. I can say that on many of the Scott International Album pages, when I remove the Post-It Note from the page I had one or both of the following happen quite frequently:
- some of the printed page border came off with the Post-it Note
- the album page was thinned where the Post-it Note was attached
The longer the Post-it Note was attached to the page, the worse the damage. However, never did a Post-it Note adhere to a page and not come off, and no thinning was bad enough to create a hole on the album page.
Like anything else that is not designed for hobby use, try it out on used and unused cheap/damaged items first. I suggest leaving the Post-it Note on a stamp for at least a month or two to give the adhesive a chance to interact with the stamp. If you have album pages that you don't need, attach one to that as well to see what happens. Better to ruin unneeded items than that inverted Jenny!
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
08 Jan 2020
07:12:22pm
re: Hinges
If I understand it right, Dennison stopped manufacturing
its wonderful peelable hinges about 1985 or so and by 1999,
Subway was unable to find anyone who, having worked at the
Dennison factory,
had any real knowledge of the glue manufacturing process,
alive or dead.
I notice that there was an increase in the annual number
of reported alien temporary abductions and examinations
in the Framingham area during the summer of 1986.
Hmmm, could there be a connection ?
Is that the real conspiracy?
I am sure visiting alien spaceships have paperwork to
maintain for their reports when they return to the orbiting
motherhip and secret base on the darkside of the moon.
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The only likely way a better hinge would become available was if there is some other use that needs a similar product. The Elmer's glue was developed for crafting so there must be financial justification. I doubt Prinz wants to spend any time on it.
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re: Hinges
Charlie’s rapier-like wit aside, hinges were a tiny part of the Dennison manufacturing product line. Dennison was founded in 1844 as a jewelry and watch-box manufacturing. By the early 1860s it had grown into a significant manufacturer cardboard jewelry boxes but also paper display cards and all kinds of paper tags. In 1863 they secured a patent for using a paper washer on each side of an eyelet to reinforce a tag and this design allowed them to sell ten million tags. This allowed them to become a huge company. Tying the little strings to each tag also drove considerable employment opportunities but times being what they were it lead to children being used to these tasks. As they grew, Dennison branched out into a large amount of additional paper products like crepe paper (you know, textured paper) by the turn of the century. This included all kinds of holiday favors and other stationary type products but it was not until the late 1920s did they venture into making stamp hinges.
During the period of 1930 -1970 Dennison had thousands of products in their product line; hinges were a very tiny fraction of what they produced. I doubt there were more than a handful of people who were involved with hinge production in what had grown into a huge multinational company. By the time that Subway purchased the old equipment in the 1990s Avery had merged with Dennison; I am unsure if the original operators had retired by them or not. But I doubt that Avery-Dennison would open their employee files for Subway nor would I think that Avery-Dennison would want to offer any existing employees new job opportunities at Subway.
Don
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re: Hinges
My follow-up on this very informative discussion....
1. The mysterious chemical discussed is unknown. Wayne Youngblood didn't now what it was. My contact at Lighthouse in Germany did not know either. It has been off the market for a good 30 years, so who knows what it was or why it was taken off the market.
2. The Post-it notes leave a residue on the stamp. So will the scotch "peelable" tape. No dealer that I know will purchase a collection mounted with either of those.
3. Hinges and the economy... I doubt any company would invest in a new hinge. The research cost alone would put the hinges at $10 (Canadian, all prices in Canadian dollars). Here is why.
Last month, I ordered somemore Dennisen hinges from Unitrade for the shop.... back-ordered! Darn! Well, I have to have hinges to sell to my customers so I ordered some Lighthouse "Fasto" hinges. The Unitrade hinges are $4.95 a packet of 1000, the Lighthouse ones are $5.99 a packet of 1000. I have both on the shelf. When I had only the Lighthouse hinges on the floor, very few people would buy them... too expensive, I was told! I haven't sold any since the Unitrade ones are back on the shelf.
I have no doubt that very few of my customers would pay more than eight or nine dollars for a packet of hinges, peelable or not.
With that, you can see why a company would not invest in the research for something that sells for $6. you have to sell a lot of $6 packets of hinges to get your research investment back, and start making money.
As stated by 51 Studebaker: "During the period of 1930 -1970 Dennison had thousands of products in their product line; hinges were a very tiny fraction of what they produced."
Hinges are not a big part of the economy, or the stamp market. Fewer collectors use hinges. Until about three years ago, Unitrade sold three different brands of hinges. Now they only sell the one.
I sure would like to see a peelable hinge on the market, but I don't think it is going to happen.
David Giles
Retail Manager
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Ont. Canada
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"... developing a truly peal-able hinge is definitely achievable ..."
So what makes a hinge peel-able?
Simply put, we want the hinge to stick to the stamp without the stamp sticking to the hinge.
Elaborating, we want the WAG (Water-Activated Gum) on the hinge to be activated while the WAG on the stamp is not.
One possibility is that the hinge WAG is more easily activated than the stamp WAG.
In this case, we would use very little spittle on the hinge, eg, just enough to activate the hinge WAG, without being enough spittle to activate the stamp WAG.
Maybe. My guess is that the honest recollections of folks who used Dennison hinges will be that they often overdid the spittle and, yet, the hinges peeled easily years later. So how can that be?
A second possibility is that the hinge WAG was formulated or deposited in such a way that excess moisture wicked away from the surface ... and down into the hinge WAG or the hinge substrate (eg the glassine).
This wicking would allow for the hinge WAG to be activated as its outermost layer (the one that made the join with the stamp WAG) without it being a source of migrating spittle that would activate the stamp WAG.
So how do you do that?
One way to achieve the wicking effect might be to dope the hinge WAG, eg, add something (the secret ingredient) that drew water molecules down into the hinge WAG layer. If I were paying some grad student to experiment on our behalf, I'd suggest s/he start with ... table salt.
Another way would have to do with the structure of the hinge WAG, be it the shape of the molecules or the way they pack together or the way they are deposited. Dunno what or how, but I am very familiar with the fact that how you build something can have a big impact on how it works.
"... I maintain that this is about economics ..."
I will agree that there are no powerful economic incentives to making a vastly better stamp hinge, leaving little hope that existing suppliers are gonna break out their checkbooks to meet the expenses for formulating, manufacturing, and distributing a vastly better stamp hinge.
However, that is not the only way to get things done.
There are people in this hobby who have the civic motivation & personal resources to fund such a project. And, then, there is crowd-sourcing.
In either case, we need a credible person to recruit other credible people to lead the effort.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Hinges
Hi ikey,
I doubt that we can solve the hinge issue in a public forum and without serious discovery, investment, and testing but I think we can summarize some of the potential methodologies to achieving a peal-able hinge including mechanical, chemical, and biological solutions.
A mechanical type solution would involve reducing the adhesive strength by reducing the surface area. It is like the difference between sticking something to glass vs. sticking something to a brick. Here is an example of a smooth surface with maximum surface area.
Here is an example of a textured surface with much less surface area.
But note that this is tricky because the texture area can actually increase the amount of surface area IF the adhesive flows into the contours of the texture. It is critical that adhesive only be applied to the ‘high spots’ and not flow into the ‘valleys’.
Another possible mechanical solution is to use layers; think 2 ply tissue paper. You can control exactly how strong the two layers adhere to each other, allowing the bond to break apart no matter how much a person might slobber when licking the hinge.
Additionally I think there is a potential solution in using multiple layers of adhesive, so that the adhesive layers pull apart when shearing force is applied.
I am not a chemist so someone else will have to describe how potential adhesive solutions might work on a molecular level.
But I also think that there are some incredible potential biological solutions. Nature already has some intriguing adhesive solutions; for example consider a gecko’s sticky pads which allow them to adhere to a vertical glass windows yet also allow them to easily lift their foot to walk. Plus, "Gecko Hinges' seems like a great marketing name!
Don
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re: Hinges
Gecko hinges! LOVE IT!
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re: Hinges
I would definitely buy something called Gecko Hinges. Definitely.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
09 Jan 2020
01:03:16pm
re: Hinges
No conspiracy ?
Shucks, there goes the book that I could sell
on my next trip to Roswell.
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Has there been any pronouncement by the APS on the removable 811 3M tape? It is archival safe, photo safe, and meets ISO Standard 18916. It is chemically neutral, and while I had a batch which some residue, it may have been manufacturing issue but 3M which I contacted had no further issues, and they never acknowledged the original issue I had reported. (so could it have been a counterfeit tape, or a temporary manufacturing glitch?)
I have been using them for years and while, in the back of my head, I believe that I am doing it temporarily, this is looking pretty permanent. I intended to replace them if there were any signs of trouble, which I cannot find so far. My temporary use looks awfully like permanent. And unlike Dennison (or any other hinge), it leaves NO mark whatsoever.
Of course all my valuable stamps are in housed in mounts, but there are a lot of other stamps I have been using the tape on, with full satisfaction.
I know collectors all have bad memories of the Scotch tape damage centuries ago, and are a conservative bunch resistant to untested technology, but this is possibly breakthrough modern technology from 3M. Curious if a testing task force was ever put in place by APS to make a final technical pronouncement? And if not, why not?
rrr...
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'
I would take the extra step of buying the tape from Uline, or a similar high-volume professional distributor, and not the lowest-priced reseller you can find on Amazon.
search: Scotch® Removable Magic™ Tape Boxed Refill
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/358878O/811-datablad.pdf ... the technical datasheet
Trigger warning: if you love English, put down your coffee before you look at the datasheet.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Hinges
Interesting to note on the datasheet under "Characteristics", that the "Adhesive" is listed as "Post-It Acrylics". So we're back to Post-Its again......
This sounds worth a try to me - not for any expensive stamps of course, but I may give it a test run on some commons.
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I have never used hinges and never will. One of my pet peeves is removing hinge remnants from stamps by soaking the stamps in water.
There are other ways for mounting stamps on album pages that do not involve sticking adhesive materials on the stamp.
For me, the stockbooks work better. I can also scan my collection and be able to enjoy enlarged stamp images on my computer; then put the stamps back in glassine envelopes.
But , then I do not try to have a really complete collection and show the gaps in it.
There are different ways of collecting.
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In response to those who have said post-it notes are thick and bulky to use for hinges;
the idea here is not to use the Post-It notes, ultimately;
the test is for the adhesive - if it works, it could then be applied
to actual hinges.
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In my opinion, a valid number of testers would be around 50-75. In other words, to be able to say with a high level of confidence that an adhesive is suitable for use we would need at least 50-75 people to test it. This should cover enough different environmental conditions (ideally there would be a number of ‘extreme’ type condition in this small size such as attics and basements). The duration of the testing should ideally be several decades. Of course there are accelerated tests that could be performed if folks had the time and setup to do them. The good news is that if a person tests in extreme environments first (such as Al is doing), we may be able to quickly rule out some adhesives without more extensive testing efforts (if it quickly fails the test by leaving residue on stamp, tones, etc.).
Folks who post results should always note that they are experimenting and that ‘your results may vary’ to prevent others from making potentially damaging decisions in how they are mounting their materials. It is easy for a person to be using a online search engine and stumble upon a post without much other context…the ‘I read it in the internet so it must be true’ crowd.
Don
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The testing has already been done. No need to try and reinvent the wheel. Post it notes are bad for philatelic uses. The adhesive is permanent and will damage what it comes in contact with.
Post it notes
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/file/pcpm/subsidiary_15.pdf
Here is a list (again) of products that have already been tested.
https://classic.stamps.org/Preservation-and-Care
I didn't just stumble across this information, it comes from the American Philatelic Society. If you don't trust their results, who will you trust?
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
11 Jan 2020
12:48:11pm
re: Hinges
" .... who will you trust? ...."
Is that a trick question ?
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re: Hinges
Hi Vince,
My post was speaking of folks who post about the success they have had using modern adhesives. It has been well established that Post-it adhesive leaves a residue, I believe that this has been covered in a number of other threads going back several years both here and over in the SCF forum. There are also numerous articles and research papers that can be found which show that Post It Notes should not be used on anything considered archival.
I think it is important that some folks experiment with new ways to mount stamps; this is how the hobby moves forward. But I do not like to see folks post the result of their experiments and make it sound like they have found the solution (not saying that this happened in this thread). My post above was referring to these kinds of anecdotal posts and observations.
Don
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3M 811 is NOT post it
Now temporary use is not the same as permanent, but I have used 3M 811 on stamps for 10 years or more (see prior discussions here and elsewhere, in particular with khd (kim), and as long as you understand it is temporary use (your definition of temporary) I see no problem continuing to do so. 3M does not claim it is for archival use (forever).
Your choice, stick a hinge on it or leave the stamp pristine with the capability of moving it around (but admit it is temporary)
rrr
I miss kim's contribution here.
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re: Hinges
The 3M 811 is especially useful for mounting stamp mounts. I sometimes (OK, more than sometimes) will reprint an album page to correct errors (surprise, surprise) or change the layout and if the mounts are stuck in with the lick-em adhesive they are done. I use the 811 on them now and can move them from place to place with no problems. Cheaper than replacing mounts.
With regards to hinges, sometimes hinges can be removed by placing the stamp face down on a hard surface and rubbing the attached area of hinge on the back of the stamp with the back of tongs. It has seemed to me that on the ones which release the hinge adhesive is crystallized and the rubbing crushes the crystals and releases the hinge. Anyone else see that? If the hinge adhesive could be made so it would crystallize when dry it might be easier to remove.
Just some thoughts
Brian
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Brian,
This technique is described here http://stampsmarter.com/learning/HowToRemoveHinges.html
Don
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My stamp club, Mount Nittany Philatelic Society, (we meet the third Thursday 7:00 pm at the APS), performed a hinge test several months ago. Twelve members participated. We had twenty four different brands. It was a blind test, the hinges were in unmarked glassine envelope identified by a letter. We used low value mint U.S. stamps from the Great American Series. Each member had a sheet with twenty four boxes marked with the hinge letter.
Three months later we peeled our own stamps from the sheets and assigned a number according to how easy it was to peel each hinge from the stamp on a number scale of 1-5. Here are the results with the better hinges in bold numbers at the right column. As you can guess, Dennison was the winner with Tasco a close second.
This is a copy of the results.
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Interesting that the three lowest rated hinges were from Stanley Gibbons and Scott!
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Interesting. Hinges are a paper product so lots of variation - intentional or not.
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A test with one of those PH pens would be interesting if you still have access to the range.
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This is a report on hinge pH. It does not mention Prinz. The question is how many companies actually make them rather than who brands them to sell.
https://classic.stamps.org/userfiles/fil ...
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The good Dennison hinges are now selling for $30-40 dollars a pack on eBay! Given the high cost of hinges and mounts these days, maybe there's a good case to be made to store your stamp collection in stockbooks or stock pages...
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