Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
03:41:19pm
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I would suggest starting at the link below, then if you are really serious purchase a book and have very deep pockets for the number of stamps you will need.
http://www.johnlamonby.com/archive.php?showarticle=07
A quick internet search on "plating the penny black" will throw up a number of good sites.
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05:45:17pm
I read the article accessed by the link, it sounds like a lot of fun if that was the only area I was collecting. I really don't think I would have the patience to collect at that level - I even hate checking watermarks and perforations. I find early US stamps enough of a challenge!! I think I will make a try at earlier GB but I think I'll stick to the basics. Do any of you actually plate early British stamps?
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The web site sheepshanks lists above is a great primer for plating the 1d Black. I have all of the books referred to in this site, plus a couple.
Since the check letters were hand punched on each plate, it is possible to determine which plate a penny black stamp is printed from. Possible, but not necessarily easy.
Charles Nessen built a collection of all 240 check letters for each of the plates used to print the penny black. Pictures of the stamps can be found at the following web site:
http://www.maltesex.com/plating/
Some of the letters are very close among several plates so plating can be difficult for some letter combinations. The inclusion or exclusion of plate flaws can then aid in determining the plate.
The Penny red stamps, both imperf and perf, can also be plated but in my opinion are harder to plate than the 1d black. There were around 175 plates that were used to print the imperf stamp from 1841 to 1854.
Prices vary widely from plate to plate. Normally the price is the same regardless of the letter combination of the check letters, unless there is a plate flaw associated with it.
I have been plating, or at least attempting to plate, penny blacks and reds for many years. I love the line engraved issues of Great Britain especially the 1d Red imperf. I have built a very specialized collection of both stamps and covers for the line engraved issues. If I can be of any assistance, please let me know.
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@sgm, I have enough trouble trying to read the plate numbers on the used penny reds, seems the postmark is always in the wrong place or the stamps are just very faded. Bit easier with the later Victoria stamps where they are much more obvious.
Fortunately I only have one penny black, not the best, but at least a representative copy for the album.
Must be so much easier if you have all mint copies.
Have had fun the past couple of days with the Downey heads and all their varieties. SG could help with better illustrations. I had to check the net for an illustration of the missing cross.
Ah well keeps the grey matter working.
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06:20:34pm
The knowledge some of you have astounds me - I think there is a major difference between a philatelist and a stamp collector. I'm very much afraid I am still in the second category and have a ways to go before I can enter the first. Anyone with the patience to do what some of you do is definitely to be admired! I don't even comprehend how someone can accumulate enough penny blacks to attempt this procedure.
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Not sure if you have found this Harvey, https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_penny_page.php
If you have one send a scan to be added.
I think a lot of us, me included, are just happy with our little bits of paper that help us while away the hours and keep the brain cells active.
Guess we all learn in different ways and collect at varying levels, it takes me ages to grasp some of the more obscure differences although I have recently managed to sort lots of QE2 Castles according to watermarks and printers.
I'm sure life would be much easier with a $300 watermark detector rather than a bottle of lighter fluid or rubbing alcohol. But that's an expense I find hard to justify when at the end of my days everything will just go to auction.
Enjoy what you do and how and what you collect, it is all that really matters.
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I accumulated most of my early GB back in the 1990s when prices weren't as crazy as now. I would buy the 1d Red imperfs in lots of 100 or more from auctions through the mail. Many 100s were accumulated and I really enjoyed going through them looking for varieties such as re-entries, double letters, inverted watermarks, etc. Cancellations during this time period are interesting as well. The whole concept of obliterating and date stamping was relatively new and constantly changing.
The internet was not around yet so knowledge was gained from getting specialized books and catalologs. Lots of gems could be found in the stock books of dealers at the local shows along the Front Range of Colorado. The 1d Red imperf didn't even catalog $3 in Scott's back then so most dealers had quite a few in stock and either didn't know about varieties or didn't bother to check. It seemed that everyone here collected and specialized in early US so I had a field day going to shows the first couple of years.
But specializing can be a double edged sword. By the late 1990s the whole process of acquiring and fly specking became more like work than a relaxing hobby. So I packed everything away and quit collecting stamps for 20 years. I dug my worldwide (big blue) albums out a couple of years ago and have really enjoyed collecting stamps again. Thanks to SoR approvals and auctions, I have literally added several thousands of stamps to my collection.
Now so much information can be found online that researching is relatively easy. I think I'm almost, almost, ready to start playing with my GB line engraved stamps again. I don't have a scanner or I would post pictures of my collection. But my new year's resolution is to get a new computer and scanner and get more involved with SoR and other stamp forums by posting pictures and replying to posts.
Sorry about being so long winded, but once I start talking it's hard to shut me up! 
Oh, by the way, back then you could get nice penny blacks for around 25 to 30 US dollars and 1d Black covers for around $75.
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08:05:43pm
Thanks for the Penny Black sheet link - I discovered it quite a while ago and mine is already crossed off. To another point...someone told me that electronic watermark detectors work no better than fluid. If that is not right please let me know - I would gladly "invest" $300 in one if it makes detection of watermarks more certain. I have quite a few stamps saved that require watermarks to be checked and am waiting to be in the mood to do so - that may never happen.
I do sort of collect at my own level. I don't think I have the patience that some of the rest of you have. If I had to sit down and check the plates of a bunch of Penny Blacks or the watermarks and perfs and color shades and types of paper for a bunch of early US stamps it would drive me nuts! Things eventually get done, but only when the time is right!
Happy collecting!
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"Oh, by the way, back then you could get nice penny blacks for around 25 to 30 US dollars and 1d Black covers for around $75."
Lucky these days if you can pick a half decent one up for $120 or more.
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sheepshanks, have you tried the Stoneham catalog? It seems to have information not found elsewhere. Also, my bottles of Ronsonol lighter fluid have being serving me well for over 50 years!
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Harvey, stamp collecting is so many things to so many people. I don't consider myself a philatelist just because I know a little about early GB stamps and covers. Quite the contrary. I am very unorganized and until recently haven't bothered to mount any of my prized stamps and covers. I consider myself to be an educated accumulator! To me, organizing, mounting and writing up a stamp or cover makes one a philatelist.
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sgm, I have an old Stoneham about 1985 (8th Edition)together with a couple of Concise, SG Commonwealth and a 2014 Scotts.
I do find the Stoneham a good alternative to Gibbons and it has some very helpful charts and tables.
Like yourself I am trying to sort previously accumulated boxes and bags which mostly require soaking prior to sorting.
After a while I find I can recognise a lot of the watermarks but tend to have a chart beside me when working. Think most of the time it just needs practice and a reference copy that can only be a certain type.
What I find irritating is that Gibbons has not shown the watermarks as seen from the rear, which is where most of us view the mark. I flipped the chart using Irfanview and printed it off.
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That's a great idea of flipping and printing.
I've been watermarking KGV, KGVI and QEII looking for sideways and inverted watermarks. QEII give me the most problems.
Next I think I'll try out my new UV light on that bag of Wildings and Machins.
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Only 1 bag, I have about 6 boxes of them. Each box is about 30x18x8 inches, apart from all the ones already soaked, sorted and mounted or filed in envelopes. Enough to keep me busy for years.
Guess the Holocaust project will be getting another box soon.
My big watermark problem is the Hong Kong heavy colour stamps, they seem absolute murder to even see a trace of a mark.
Good game, good game as Brucie would say.
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I have a $300 watermark detector, gathering dust. I still use fluid, which works much, much, better.
I heartily recommend this Wiki, where you can see images of hundreds of 1d blacks to compare yours to. Compare the lettering and you're halfway there!
http://www.stampsoftheworld.co.uk/wiki/Category:GB_1d_Black_Plates_by_Lettering
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Thank you for posting this Wiki. It's great.
Here's a great link to a database of Great Britain postmarks containing pictures of over 19000 postmarks:
http://philatelicweb.com/pmks/
I have many postmarks from towns that this database is missing a scan of.
I really need that new computer and scanner so I can contribute to both of these excellent web sites. Both of which I wished exsisted just a few years ago.
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I find plating the penny Black and Penny red from black plates pretty easy using the Nissen photographic plates,below an example of Letters AA plates 8 to 11.The Pics have been greatly reduced in size,but give you an idea.I cannot remember how much I paid (It was years ago)but it was under £ 30.00(I think) for all plates and was well worth it.Have not found a plate 11 yet but 2 plates 10 ,several 9's etc.Got this on E-Bay.It comes on a CD.
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Incidentally,I have used 2 different makes of electronic Watermark Detectors and found that in the end I would return to the fluid and tiny little flashlight
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
02 Jan 2020
03:41:19pm
I was going to add Great Britain to the countries I collect, I even bought an album that covers the era up to 1967! Then I realized how much work it is and decided to put it off for a while. I do have the start of a collection and even picked up a really nicely centered used Penny Black - position GH with a really nice red Maltese Cross postmark. I watched a YouTube segment on the Penny Black that discussed the stamp in very general terms - not much detail. How do you tell which plate an individual stamp is from, do you need a corner block with margin telling a plate number? Considering the early time period this doesn't sound reasonable, my guess is that there are slight variations in the stamp. I guess there is probably a whole book out there that tells everything I would need to know to narrow my stamp down to a particular plate. Also do values vary according to plate position or are all positions of equal value - common sense says they should be. I think there are collectors who just specialize in one stamp so the information must be out there somewhere. Just call me "curious"....
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re: how do I find number of plate?
I would suggest starting at the link below, then if you are really serious purchase a book and have very deep pockets for the number of stamps you will need.
http://www.johnlamonby.com/archive.php?showarticle=07
A quick internet search on "plating the penny black" will throw up a number of good sites.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
02 Jan 2020
05:45:17pm
re: how do I find number of plate?
I read the article accessed by the link, it sounds like a lot of fun if that was the only area I was collecting. I really don't think I would have the patience to collect at that level - I even hate checking watermarks and perforations. I find early US stamps enough of a challenge!! I think I will make a try at earlier GB but I think I'll stick to the basics. Do any of you actually plate early British stamps?
Login to Like
this post
re: how do I find number of plate?
The web site sheepshanks lists above is a great primer for plating the 1d Black. I have all of the books referred to in this site, plus a couple.
Since the check letters were hand punched on each plate, it is possible to determine which plate a penny black stamp is printed from. Possible, but not necessarily easy.
Charles Nessen built a collection of all 240 check letters for each of the plates used to print the penny black. Pictures of the stamps can be found at the following web site:
http://www.maltesex.com/plating/
Some of the letters are very close among several plates so plating can be difficult for some letter combinations. The inclusion or exclusion of plate flaws can then aid in determining the plate.
The Penny red stamps, both imperf and perf, can also be plated but in my opinion are harder to plate than the 1d black. There were around 175 plates that were used to print the imperf stamp from 1841 to 1854.
Prices vary widely from plate to plate. Normally the price is the same regardless of the letter combination of the check letters, unless there is a plate flaw associated with it.
I have been plating, or at least attempting to plate, penny blacks and reds for many years. I love the line engraved issues of Great Britain especially the 1d Red imperf. I have built a very specialized collection of both stamps and covers for the line engraved issues. If I can be of any assistance, please let me know.
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re: how do I find number of plate?
@sgm, I have enough trouble trying to read the plate numbers on the used penny reds, seems the postmark is always in the wrong place or the stamps are just very faded. Bit easier with the later Victoria stamps where they are much more obvious.
Fortunately I only have one penny black, not the best, but at least a representative copy for the album.
Must be so much easier if you have all mint copies.
Have had fun the past couple of days with the Downey heads and all their varieties. SG could help with better illustrations. I had to check the net for an illustration of the missing cross.
Ah well keeps the grey matter working.
Login to Like
this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
02 Jan 2020
06:20:34pm
re: how do I find number of plate?
The knowledge some of you have astounds me - I think there is a major difference between a philatelist and a stamp collector. I'm very much afraid I am still in the second category and have a ways to go before I can enter the first. Anyone with the patience to do what some of you do is definitely to be admired! I don't even comprehend how someone can accumulate enough penny blacks to attempt this procedure.
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this post
Approvals
re: how do I find number of plate?
Not sure if you have found this Harvey, https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_penny_page.php
If you have one send a scan to be added.
I think a lot of us, me included, are just happy with our little bits of paper that help us while away the hours and keep the brain cells active.
Guess we all learn in different ways and collect at varying levels, it takes me ages to grasp some of the more obscure differences although I have recently managed to sort lots of QE2 Castles according to watermarks and printers.
I'm sure life would be much easier with a $300 watermark detector rather than a bottle of lighter fluid or rubbing alcohol. But that's an expense I find hard to justify when at the end of my days everything will just go to auction.
Enjoy what you do and how and what you collect, it is all that really matters.
Login to Like
this post
re: how do I find number of plate?
I accumulated most of my early GB back in the 1990s when prices weren't as crazy as now. I would buy the 1d Red imperfs in lots of 100 or more from auctions through the mail. Many 100s were accumulated and I really enjoyed going through them looking for varieties such as re-entries, double letters, inverted watermarks, etc. Cancellations during this time period are interesting as well. The whole concept of obliterating and date stamping was relatively new and constantly changing.
The internet was not around yet so knowledge was gained from getting specialized books and catalologs. Lots of gems could be found in the stock books of dealers at the local shows along the Front Range of Colorado. The 1d Red imperf didn't even catalog $3 in Scott's back then so most dealers had quite a few in stock and either didn't know about varieties or didn't bother to check. It seemed that everyone here collected and specialized in early US so I had a field day going to shows the first couple of years.
But specializing can be a double edged sword. By the late 1990s the whole process of acquiring and fly specking became more like work than a relaxing hobby. So I packed everything away and quit collecting stamps for 20 years. I dug my worldwide (big blue) albums out a couple of years ago and have really enjoyed collecting stamps again. Thanks to SoR approvals and auctions, I have literally added several thousands of stamps to my collection.
Now so much information can be found online that researching is relatively easy. I think I'm almost, almost, ready to start playing with my GB line engraved stamps again. I don't have a scanner or I would post pictures of my collection. But my new year's resolution is to get a new computer and scanner and get more involved with SoR and other stamp forums by posting pictures and replying to posts.
Sorry about being so long winded, but once I start talking it's hard to shut me up!
Oh, by the way, back then you could get nice penny blacks for around 25 to 30 US dollars and 1d Black covers for around $75.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
02 Jan 2020
08:05:43pm
re: how do I find number of plate?
Thanks for the Penny Black sheet link - I discovered it quite a while ago and mine is already crossed off. To another point...someone told me that electronic watermark detectors work no better than fluid. If that is not right please let me know - I would gladly "invest" $300 in one if it makes detection of watermarks more certain. I have quite a few stamps saved that require watermarks to be checked and am waiting to be in the mood to do so - that may never happen.
I do sort of collect at my own level. I don't think I have the patience that some of the rest of you have. If I had to sit down and check the plates of a bunch of Penny Blacks or the watermarks and perfs and color shades and types of paper for a bunch of early US stamps it would drive me nuts! Things eventually get done, but only when the time is right!
Happy collecting!
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re: how do I find number of plate?
"Oh, by the way, back then you could get nice penny blacks for around 25 to 30 US dollars and 1d Black covers for around $75."
Lucky these days if you can pick a half decent one up for $120 or more.
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re: how do I find number of plate?
sheepshanks, have you tried the Stoneham catalog? It seems to have information not found elsewhere. Also, my bottles of Ronsonol lighter fluid have being serving me well for over 50 years!
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this post
re: how do I find number of plate?
Harvey, stamp collecting is so many things to so many people. I don't consider myself a philatelist just because I know a little about early GB stamps and covers. Quite the contrary. I am very unorganized and until recently haven't bothered to mount any of my prized stamps and covers. I consider myself to be an educated accumulator! To me, organizing, mounting and writing up a stamp or cover makes one a philatelist.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: how do I find number of plate?
sgm, I have an old Stoneham about 1985 (8th Edition)together with a couple of Concise, SG Commonwealth and a 2014 Scotts.
I do find the Stoneham a good alternative to Gibbons and it has some very helpful charts and tables.
Like yourself I am trying to sort previously accumulated boxes and bags which mostly require soaking prior to sorting.
After a while I find I can recognise a lot of the watermarks but tend to have a chart beside me when working. Think most of the time it just needs practice and a reference copy that can only be a certain type.
What I find irritating is that Gibbons has not shown the watermarks as seen from the rear, which is where most of us view the mark. I flipped the chart using Irfanview and printed it off.
Login to Like
this post
re: how do I find number of plate?
That's a great idea of flipping and printing.
I've been watermarking KGV, KGVI and QEII looking for sideways and inverted watermarks. QEII give me the most problems.
Next I think I'll try out my new UV light on that bag of Wildings and Machins.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: how do I find number of plate?
Only 1 bag, I have about 6 boxes of them. Each box is about 30x18x8 inches, apart from all the ones already soaked, sorted and mounted or filed in envelopes. Enough to keep me busy for years.
Guess the Holocaust project will be getting another box soon.
My big watermark problem is the Hong Kong heavy colour stamps, they seem absolute murder to even see a trace of a mark.
Good game, good game as Brucie would say.
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this post
re: how do I find number of plate?
I have a $300 watermark detector, gathering dust. I still use fluid, which works much, much, better.
I heartily recommend this Wiki, where you can see images of hundreds of 1d blacks to compare yours to. Compare the lettering and you're halfway there!
http://www.stampsoftheworld.co.uk/wiki/Category:GB_1d_Black_Plates_by_Lettering
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re: how do I find number of plate?
Thank you for posting this Wiki. It's great.
Here's a great link to a database of Great Britain postmarks containing pictures of over 19000 postmarks:
http://philatelicweb.com/pmks/
I have many postmarks from towns that this database is missing a scan of.
I really need that new computer and scanner so I can contribute to both of these excellent web sites. Both of which I wished exsisted just a few years ago.
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like this post.
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re: how do I find number of plate?
I find plating the penny Black and Penny red from black plates pretty easy using the Nissen photographic plates,below an example of Letters AA plates 8 to 11.The Pics have been greatly reduced in size,but give you an idea.I cannot remember how much I paid (It was years ago)but it was under £ 30.00(I think) for all plates and was well worth it.Have not found a plate 11 yet but 2 plates 10 ,several 9's etc.Got this on E-Bay.It comes on a CD.
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re: how do I find number of plate?
Incidentally,I have used 2 different makes of electronic Watermark Detectors and found that in the end I would return to the fluid and tiny little flashlight
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